Is it even possible to tell PDs they have major work to do?

[Call Me Cordelia]

So I had a talk with my DH. He had said previously that his parents want to reconcile and he hoped we could, when I'm ready. I did tell him yesterday his mom emailed me, and that I hadn't read it yet. I thought that news would be better coming from me than his mom.

So today I was prepared and said something to the effect of no matter what this email says, no matter what my current mental state/healing status, it is way too soon to start any attempt at reconciliation that is likely to be successful. We've seen ten years plus of stunning lack of self-awareness and boundaries and outright abuse, and his parents could not have done the necessary work to make themselves safe people in six months, even if they were sincerely doing it, which I'd be very surprised if that were they case. My being ready is only one necessary part of the equation. If at some point I do feel ready to test the waters, and find they haven't majorly changed, they may not get another chance. He was sad but thought that was reasonable.

Then I decided to read the email from MIL (no pressure from DH). It was "nice" but confirmed for me that she still does not get it at all. To her credit she apologized for not trying to get to know me earlier on. DH was all like This is major progress for her! True, perhaps. But merely the tip of the iceberg. And sooooo far from the real cause of things falling apart. Disinterest I could have lived with. At minimum I would have expected an apology for her last disastrous chock-full-of-narcissistic rage communication. And then! Asks me all these deeply personal questions! What is important to me? What are my hopes? Mush like that. Let's start all over. I can call or email if I want. Please let me communicate with you. Heart heart heart.

She is one of the last people in the world to whom I feel safe opening my heart. And this exercise in rug sweeping would help nobody to really heal. DH appreciates that, but still thinks it would be a good idea for me to say to her essentially what I just said to him in the paragraph above. She's trying as best she knows how. (I do believe that's accurate.) I said I'd have to think about that. And ask all you wise people.

I did also say at no time would I ever be willing to educate his parents about what they did wrong. They have the same abilities to seek help and resources available to them that I do. I would also not justify my actions and boundaries to them. And that I was fully justified in never replying, since my NC boundary was never revoked and was violated by this "nice" e-mail.

I still don't think DH really grasps just how badly his parents have behaved, if that matters. He still seems a bit focused on ME not being "healed enough" to do this with them. He heard me, but I don't think he really accepts their serious limitations as human beings. He tends to get nostalgic for his wonderful childhood after these kinds of talks, and when I left to spend some time on my own he was ordering a food item his parents always have at their house on Amazon.

So what do you think? Is there any way a reply could be helpful here? I would be doing it more for myself and DH, so there would be no doubt for either of us that I did everything I could on my end, and that I could still be kind while being firm in my truth. Part of me thinks I'd have a snowball's chance in hell of being heard, and they have had lots of chances, but that's kind of beside the point this time. Thank you all!

[SerenityCat]

She is one of the last people in the world to whom I feel safe opening my heart.

This is good wisdom for you to listen to and honor.

I still don't think DH really grasps just how badly his parents have behaved, if that matters. He still seems a bit focused on ME not being "healed enough" to do this with them. He heard me, but I don't think he really accepts their serious limitations as human beings

.

I suppose that he may or may not ever truly get it.

I wonder if there is a way to divert the focus from you supposedly not being "healed enough". Maybe the focus could return to you and DH, on what you both enjoy. Your own lives.

The energy spent on trying to figure out how to respond could be spend on something else. Or maybe a reply, for yourself, would help you move on.

Crafting a reply that is supposed to help both you and DH seems too complicated. That seems like it could lead to extra chaos and triangulation. You and DH can stand solid in your own relationship. His relationship with his parents is his responsibility. Your choices about whether to interact with his parents are yours.

I may be misreading and over analyzing here, but I'm concerned that too much is being put on your shoulders. You can shrug that off anytime.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thank you. Not replying is absolutely on the table. Anything I would chose to say would be to put the responsibility for their stuff squarely on them. With DH as witness, perhaps. Perhaps I do have a bit of codependent motivation to help DH unFOG, it's true.

[SerenityCat]

One option is to give yourself plenty of time. If you are at all being made to feel like this is urgent - that would be a good signal to perhaps slow everything down.

You could decide that you are busy now, including busy enjoying your life. Maybe you aren't even really able to ponder this until October. 

DH can do his own thing with his parents.

If this ends up on your shoulders, if you are expected to somehow perform the "right way" in order to create peace - I think there is a possibility for things to go awry. Because personality disordered people can always move the goal posts. You may think you are doing things right, for the right reason, and they may still insist that you are wrong.

DH appreciates that, but still thinks it would be a good idea for me to say to her essentially what I just said to him in the paragraph above. She's trying as best she knows how. (I do believe that's accurate.) I said I'd have to think about that. And ask all you wise people.

If DH himself honestly feels that she is trying the best she knows how then he can say that. He can speak for himself, to her directly, and not involve you.

As you know, you could tell her that, in hopes of pleasing your husband and maybe her - and she could still blow everything up. Or you may find yourself uncomfortable and stressed in the process.

This My Stuff/Your Stuff might be helpful along with other ideas in the Toolbox https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/understand-my-stuffyour-stuff

Your example of carefully thinking this through is inspiring! 

[Cat of the Canals]

I like SerenityCat's idea of tabling the whole thing for a while. In fact, telling her you need some time to think things through might be a good way to "test the waters." I suspect that she will not be happy with anything but a response in which you 1. graciously accept her apology, 2 offer your own apology for all the ways you've wronged her (in her mind, of course), and 3.  bare your soul by answering all of her "deep" questions.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Right, CofC. My expectations for her being pleased with anything other than full compliance are way down there. Her feelings about any reply I make would be irrelevant to me. Something for her therapist to help her process.  In fact I would send and then immediately block her and only check that special folder when I chose, far in the future. I would have if I'd thought of it before  but I can't genuinely "unsee" this. Better to process than deny, right?

Serenity, DH has been doing very well with trying to respect me and my boundaries right now. Even though he still has an outcome he's hoping for, and is honest about it, we are both clear that I cannot make that happen whatever I decide with this particular thing and truly I don't feel pressured by him. A big thing he's done for me is conceal my pregnancy from them although he acknowledges that will inevitably distance him further from them. He's been reading and learning about codependency. I'm doing better detaching from his attachment to mom and dad.

Our expectations of likely outcome and reasons for considering my answering this email are very different, but I'm ok with considering it anyway. He genuinely thinks I may have an opportunity to steer the relationship in a positive direction long term here. Your point that he can speak for himself here is very well taken. What is attractive to me is the opportunity to just level with MIL and say flat out this is her mess and I refuse to take responsibility or play her games. That part seems empowering.

[Leonor]

 Stay strong and listen to your heart!

Your MIL's letter is not "her trying." It's not "a step in the right direction." It's not "the best she can do."

It's just her Plan B. It's another tactic to manipulate you into disappearing into the ether and then she can get her adult married son back to doing whatever she wants.

You set a boundary. She didn't like it. You stayed safe and reasonable in your boundary. She still doesn't like it. So what can she do?

Hmmm ... Mrs. Meanie didn't get her too far. Maybe Mrs. Nice Guy will work. You want nice? She'll give you nice! What do you like to do? What do you want from life? What is in your heart?

It's actually brilliant because she can feel all morally superior, her son will admire her effort to try harder and you will willingly give her all the info she needs to use against you sooner or later!

Nice try, Mrs Nice Guy.

The irony is that you wouldn't feel weird about her letter if you weren't making real progress in your healing. Any healing person would recognize that her letter sounds just like someone trying to act the way they think someone nice might act. With a horrific bunch of boundary breaching thrown in for good measure!

That's an angle, not an effort.

Your MIL will never get it. Even if she understands that you are on to her. And dh might never get it either. That's ok. Nobody has to get it. It's your healing ... You don't need anyone else's permission.

I would fold that letter into a paper airplane, write a "strong suggestion" on it, and toss it right back into MIL's window.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thanks for that. That's actually the first thing I said, "Nice try!" I wasn't really angry yesterday but I am starting to be today.

Strong suggestion, eh? Well, if I'm not going to be profane...

"Nice try, MIL. Of course I have no interest in sharing intimate information with you. You may have guessed that by my stating I wanted no communication whatsoever with you, and that you have treated me terribly for over ten years. I am not taking the responsibility for fixing this. This is your mess and your job to rebuild trust here. If you choose not to accept that, that is your choice. But you are also choosing to give up your grandchildren. If you try to manipulate me again you will not get another chance."

[Call Me Cordelia]

Of course DH might NOT appreciate the fallout from that reply! 

[HotCocoa]

You are pregnant.  You have so many other things to worry about, one of them SHOULDN'T be her! 
I vote for no response, push this back onto your husband and tell him you just can't and shouldn't have to think about this right now!
If MIL really changed, she wouldn't expect a response and have this relationship with her be all up to you.  They all look for someone to blame, don't they! 
It most certainly is not all up to you, her actions are the reason and it's time to just drop the rope and concentrate on you and your little baby and forget the rest.  If dh wants a relationship with his family, then perhaps he needs to go to some counseling because he may never get the outcome he wants. 
Which is a direct result of his mother being who she is, not you and being "healed enough."
Take the pressure off of yourself and put the email away for a while.   A long while.   

[candy]

Call me Cordelia, I'm with SerenityCat here:

If you are at all being made to feel like this is urgent - that would be a good signal to perhaps slow everything down.

Reading your latest posts I'd say:
1. Your MIL seems to be on a campaign, don't you think? Like Leonor wrote Mrs. Nice Guy. I just don't see anything truly nice here. Breaking ST, hoovers, ignoring your wishes about communication... summer must be boring in camp PD 
2. Put it aside. Wait for the urge to answer to go away. It will pass, I promise. Remember yourself of the facts: 10 years of bad behavior towards you, half a year prolonged ST for DH, 1 letter to you to manipulate you and DH to get things her way. One. Nothing more. Your MIL is no changed woman.
3. You really seem to have more urgent and more important people and things to care for at the moment. Belated congratulations to your pregnancy! Take care!

You have already healed a lot! That's why you chose NC and are taking really good care of yourself.
Don't let anyone manipulate you into reacting. Your reaction would only be supply for the NPD. Seriously, your MIL reaching out now is obviously stressful for you. Can you ask your DH to remember his mother to respect your boundaries? No communication? He could say that now wasn't a good time without revealing anything more.

Even if it was a genuine apology, the best she could do - why rush things now? Cause MIL can't wait? Well, there you go, MIL should learn to wait for the recipient of her apologies to make his mind. Nobody has to accept an apology, you don't even have to answer it.
What the heck, MIL of CMC, that's what you get for 10 years hurting your DIL: you loose privilege. If you're mean to people, they'll refuse interaction with you sooner or later.

Call me Cordelia, don't break your NC, please. Those are just words. Nothing you write will change the way your MIL's brain is wired. To answer your question: of course you can tell a PD there is major work to do. It just won't change anything.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I shared with DH that anything I wrote would be to refuse responsibility and not to contact me. "But how can they fix it if they're not allowed to contact you?!?!?"

There was more to the conversation but it became clear I was entertaining this notion to try to prove it to DH that his NM would react badly no matter how nice and direct I was. Yeah, nope. He can make do with the many other times I've demonstrated it for him.

[treesgrowslowly]

These dynamics are so hard and you are really on the right track with what you've said about what your options truly are, when your own needs are in the mix.

There are always so many ways to be in relationship with narcissitic people when we set aside our needs. Once we keep our needs in the mix, the narcissist lost ground... and that is us healing.

You mentioned that DH thinks that your healing is what will mostly create the fantasy relationship between you and his mother. I was so happy to see you write that you know this is so -totally - not the way it works.

Healing doesn't mean becoming able to be in relationships with people who are manipulative. Healing, as you have clearly stated here, and it sounds like to DH, means having boundaries that nurture your needs, not the needs of a parent.

Specific to in laws...his relationship with his mother is his. He had a relationship with her before he was an adult. He is bonded to her. You met her as an adult, without the 20 year period he had where he loved her the way a child loves their parent.

Your relationship with her is / was based on her skills with adult relationships. Which she has revealed over time, despite her efforts (I'm guessing) to cover up her narcissitic traits with love bombing especially when performing for the family or wearing the mask in front of certain people that she performs for.

You know that DH has his own relationship with her. Your relationship with her will never be the same as the one he has.

I hate to say this but I think a lot of us end up with in laws who don't understand why the things they did with their own children, don't work with their daughter or son in laws. With their children, they acted up without taking responsibility for their behaviours, and their children grew up learning how to deal with them. When they have to foster a healthy connection with the spouse of their adult child, they are so confused (and play the victim) when this new family member doesn't just let them act up over and over and keep coming back. They don't get it. They won't get it unless they take themselves to therapy and do a lot of hard work to see what they are doing for what it is.

It seems sort of obvious to me now, having been down some of this road too, that they feel entitled to relationships they can't nurture through healthy mature behaviours on their part.

We in laws are adults when we meet them. I think we see through them in a way that is too scary for a child to see.

Your boundaries, along with your affection and love, are what your child will use to feel secure. We heal so that our children don't have to deal with the same messes we did. You're doing good things for your child with your boundaries here.

Your MIL is free to take herself to therapy to discover what happened to her boundaries. It's definitely not your job to teach her. It sounds harsh but I feel I'm writing things you already know in your gut, from reading your posts about this.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thank you, Trees. I appreciate that pep talk!

I really struggle with DH's FOG at times, partly because I got Out of the FOG with regards to my NFOO before I did with the in-laws. So I worked out that lifelong relationship first, and I think that was much harder to come to terms with. I was NC with all of them, and then thought well maybe I can at least build some boundaries and have a good relationship with the ILs, now that I know something about being an adult.

Well, history repeated itself. I feel like he watched two dysfunctional families fall apart in a similar way, when I had a heck of a lot more tools the second time around, so what's keeping him in denial?!? It's very frustrating. But not my stuff.

[Call Me Cordelia]

And daaaaaang now she's sending me tons of photos of her parents on my phone. I've blocked her but they're coming through! 

[Call Me Cordelia]

And now more emails. I don't know how these came through my blocks, but I'm glad in a way. Removed any doubt I had about not replying... She couldn't even wait a few days for an answer before doing exactly what she wanted. Ready to start anew my eye. 

[candy]

Your MIL is acting like a 16 year old who has a hard time believing she got dumped for the first time 

MIL is way out of line. Assuming a kind of intimacy that allows her to bomb you with pictures and emails without even waiting for any word from you?!
That woman really has major work to do.

Good to read your doubts have just been removed! Keeping my fingers crossed for you for those incoming messages to stop very soon! Each of those texts or pictures shows that the concept of respecting CMC's boundaries is completely unknown territory for MIL.

Block it. You got this.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Done and done. Guess she used another email address? I mean this is totally pathetic and weird, but what is a little chilling is my uNparents did EXACTLY this message bombing when I went NC with them. With them it was swifter, but it is the same tactic! Didn't work for them either.  And this time it didn't send me into panic attacks for more than a few seconds, so hurray-a for me!

Anyway I took good care of myself tonight, got together with good friends and just enjoyed going out for ice cream with our kids. Thank you you wonderful people for all your ongoing support and wisdom. Couldn't do this without you! 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Oh my gosh. Epiphany. The photos of her parents that got through. MIL has been hoping for her mother to die for as long as I've known her. Her mother is now stooped over in a wheelchair with severe dementia. Her father has been the main caregiver, but I noticed right away he is looking remarkably frail and has been much too old for this role for a long time. She was point person for her grandfather at the end of his life and has sworn she would never do that for her mother, again as long as I've known her. I have a nursing background. Calling Woman Interrupted, we have an Old Age Golden Parachute Plan in progress!!!