Reaction when you confront them

[Maz]

Hi all,

I've posted on here a couple of times about DH and his passive aggressive father and toxic step mother, FIL wife.

DH has had an honest conversation with FIL about his behaviour and how he treats people. He said FIL was asking sad and tearful but hasn't actually done anything to improve the situation or change things.

So now DH is going to speak to his toxic step mother about how she has excluded him for 12 years, never invited to family events, never invited over at Christmas, never calls him to arrange anything for FIL birthday but her own kids are there daily. They are always made excuses for any bad behaviour from her 2 adult daughters. FIL has allowed this to happen but DH is calling it out. He's finally saying something.

My question is what happens when they are called out?

Has anyone experienced a similar situation?

Just trying to understand it to be honest.

[xredshoesx]

my DH is the oldest of 6, (5 living, one NC siblings).  when his dear father died his mother who may be a little PD TRIED to put all the responsiblity of caring for her on him because he told her at 4 years old 'i'll always take care of my mommy'.  she came over one random weekend in 2014 and told us she was going to LIVE IN MY HOUSE 4 months a year and then rotate through her other grown children so she could travel on her whim.

i told her NO and we had kind of a physical altercation (she had been drinking and i tried to take her keys) and she did not speak to me for real until 2107.

that's what one of our other admins calls the 'silent treat'.  it was a very peaceful time for us and we were able to focus on US and not her constant needs/ drama.  the other siblings had to but hey someone had to stand up to her.

she's remarried and we are ok on light social terms.  apparently she likes her new husband's kids better than her own birthed kids b/c she has flipped to favoring them.....

but again it's better to speak out on the truth then to suffer in silence and i will never never never regret putting my foot down to her.  i hope some similar peace comes out of your DH speaking his mind to stepmother.

[treesgrowslowly]

From what I have seen...nothing productive or good happens.

We want to imagine it is like a movie where people reflect, and feel remorseful and then take steps to repair. The 3 Rs of being responsible within our relationships....

But no...people who have treated us poorly for years and years are not changed by conversations or confrontations by us. They are set in their ways. They believe they are entitled - to be coddled...to put it succinctly. Telling them we are tired of their behaviours just annoys them.

They live by doing certain things to certain people as they have found this to be their way of going through life.

When I wanted more from my own FOO, the more wasn't there. It wasn't there. All that was there was toxic. You've seen toxic behaviours over and over now. That is who they are.

For some of us, speaking up is an important part of healing but not for everyone. For me the healing has nothing to do with any engagement with them at all. More contact just means more abuse. But we are each unique. The important thing is to learn what the healing steps are for our selves.

These are painful relationships to heal from. I wish you the best.

Trees

[Call Me Cordelia]

I have seen the acting sad and tearful but not actually making any effort to change things from my own enabling FIL.  Over and over, it's so sad "what happened in the family," "wishes things were different," "would like to make amends." We've said we're listening... then crickets. Always passive. He lets MIL call the shots.

She's a piece of work. Calling her out in any way shape or form has led to DARVO, rage, and word salad. I've done it enough times that I don't need any more repeat performances.

I would not be surprised if you experience similar. Well why didn't DH call to arrange things for FIL birthday? You're not excluded you just don't make an effort to be part of the family! The tactics are similar. Everything is Never the Narcissist's Fault. The fact that DH had to work up the courage to do this after 12 years of toxic treatment, and his dad's limp-wristed response tells me to keep expectations very, very low.

I don't know what your DH's goals are in confronting his stepmother, so I can't say if it's a good idea or not. But if it's something of a last ditch effort to repair the relationship, I think his dad has made it clear that his son is not all that important to him, sad as that is. If it's purely for himself, to speak the truth and no longer be silenced and "go along to get along," I hope it's empowering for him. Either way, be prepared for shenanigans afterwards. Being called out is major narcissistic injury. Not unlike poking a bear with a stick. If you don't care, then fair play to you. But it could be drama your DH didn't bargain for.

[bee well]

Hi MAZ,

Your Inlaw situation sounds frustrating. Sorry you are dealing with that.

Here's what happens with my Inlaws in similar situations:

My DH has called out MIL for her outrageous behaviour over the years, in spite of the fact he knows she has .001 of changing, he (and I) will do it occasionally to create some temporary space.

MIL mostly cries and causes a scene, and tries to guilt trip us when she gets called out.  When she does something blatant enough she will back down for a little while and then get back to her old ways. FIL is completely submissive although he barks a lot if he gets a few drinks in him. BIL usually agrees with us but gets angry and shouts at Inlaws or storms off and holes himself up.

Our experience is similar to Call Me Cordelia's and so for us it's usually easier (or at least less "crazymaking") to just let things slide when we are talking with MIL. If we called her out on everything she does it would never end. Meaningful discussions are impossible.

I have decided to grey rock/medium chill and I draw the line when she touches me or my stuff, or outright insults me.

Example: one time she decided she had to pull my hat down because I "wasn't wearing it right" (In a rough manner, and without permission). I had to clench my teeth and tell her she can't do that, to not touch me, I know how I want to wear my hat. She backed off, laughing. It was hard to get through the rest of that visit. I don't have a car and they live in the middle of nowhere.

Last time we visited MIL went through my suitcase when hubby and I were out of the house because she wanted to show her bestie a gift she had given us. She told me she had done this and her excuse was that we have no secrets in the house and I am like her daughter. I told her in my best medium chill how wrong it was and that she cannot touch my things without asking. (I kept myself from blowing my stack) She did not protest as much as usual, and didn't cry (her best friend was there). We'll see what happens this next visit.

Fortunately we moved far away and see them a few times a year. We keep our visits to a minimum of three days because within 3 days that's when the dysfunction blows up.

We also try do to phone calls on days when we have the bandwidth to deal with it. She's unpredictable, When it's good it's very nice when it's bad it's horrible.

I refuse to let it break up my marriage. Fortunately Dh knows what's up or I don't know what I would do. If my husband wasn't such a kind person our marriage would be in jeopardy.

I wish my Mother had warned me about these types of situations. I think we'd all be better off if people talked to their young ones more.

So in closing, when we call out the inlaws we do it because we are fed up and it gets too absurd not to speak up. We don't expect change and we are ready for eventual temper tantrums.

That's our experience, I hope your conversations bring about some change, or at least a reprieve. At the very least you will have spoken up for yourselves. Sometimes we have to do that even if they don't listen.

We're "Looking forward" to visit with Inlaw family in the next month. I'm tempted to put a note in my suitcase that says "gotcha." :=)

All the best to you, MAZ. You are in good company here.

[Cat of the Canals]

When my husband confronted PDmil a few months ago, she did the standard:
1. Deny everything.
2. When he didn't accept her denial, she switched into waif mode. "You're only saying these things to HURT ME!"
3. Major DARVOing in which she tried to make it out like he's always been the "difficult" one.
4. The next day, she offered a brief faux apology and has since pretended it never happened.

She hasn't changed. Not even a little. But for my husband, it brought clearly into focus the very severe limitations on the relationship. He's never been fully in the FOG... it was more like he'd have "foggy" moments here and there. I doubt he ever will again.

[Andeza]

When dh tried to gently tell his mom her behavior had crossed a line, she set attack dog fil off. Because that's always worked before right? Get dad angry at son and he gets son back in line, right? And she gets to go back to doing and saying what she wants. Except now, dh is a grown man fully Out of the FOG and very very perceptive and stubborn, relying on logic to the point of fault at times.

It backfired and we are currently NC. With no end in sight.

[Hilltop]

If my PD MIL was ever confronted denial was the first thing she did, then the tears and the wails of 'you have broken my heart'.  The cries of 'I was only trying to help, why doesn't she like me or I would never do anything to hurt you'.   There were outright lies "I never said/did that'.

If I called her out on something she couldn't deny then there were deer in the headlights looks with no answer, literally no reply.  Just a dumb expression on her face.

After all that, there was no change in her behaviour.  Another tactic she uses is to tell DH about someone else doing what she is doing and saying how bad it is.  Then if called out she denies it and says 'no I said that is really bad'.

Ultimately I have never gotten anywhere with these conversations or trying to make the situation better.  It is the way it is because that's how they want things to be.  As others have said MIL would be on good behaviour for a short time period after and then straight back to her normal way.  In between that she smeared me relentlessly and lied about me to make me look bad to DH.

I guess for me I needed to try and felt I had to try for many years until one day I realised trying wasn't doing anything so I gave up.  I am not sure which way your step MIL will respond however this set up suits her.  She could even be pleasant to you but I wouldn't be so sure of what she is saying behind your back.    She could even put it back on your FIL saying she tells him to include you but he doesn't.  Who knows what tactic she will use, I hope you get an answer or things change.  Just be prepared that in many cases change doesn't happen and this can be disappointing.

[Maz]

Well, it happened. You were right, it was a disaster.

Dh spoke openly about the things that bothered him and how he always feels second best. He explained that it leaves him feeling rejected and angry.

It appeared to be going okay at first, covert narcissistic FIL was being difficult at first but then appeared to take into account what Dh was saying.

Dh had a conversation with his step mother and both tried to come up with excuses.

Step mil has as issue with me because some time ago when FIL and her got married they had a 1940's themed wedding. Step mil was "hurt" because I didn't dress up enough! 🤨🤨🤨🤨 ( I was dressed up)

Covert narcissistic FIL has an issue with me because on the rare occasion we have been invited over on Boxing Day I didn't attend, Dh had to go alone. I was working all day as it was in my contract. This was explained but still not good enough.

When Dh challenged what they were saying and that he didn't get any support through a miscarriage FIL said he would apologise.

Dh also brought up about how FIL at a family birthday accused me of "talking to men when Dh back was turned" It was so embarrassing, I wasn't talking to "men" I was asking for the staff to call a cab. Anyway FIL agreed to Dh to apologise.

Dh agreed to collect FIL and bring him to our home so he could apologise.

I wasn't part of any of the conversations it was just Dh and FIL and his step mom.

The next day FIL calls Dh and says he's not going to apologise and feels like Dh is trying to humiliate him.

Dh stayed calm on the call but was so so upset.

Dh was then sobbing saying he feels like he's never good enough.

I feel like calling FIL and giving him a piece of my mind but I won't.

Dh is really hurt and trying to work through it as best he can.

Just to add when Dh was trying to talk to FIL he was being difficult about what time Dh could go over saying he had visitors coming. When challenged it was step mil daughters who walk on water.

Just adds insult to injury!

[Call Me Cordelia]

Ugh. That stinks. I'm sad for your DH, but I hope it becomes useful information as you recover from the blast.

Why was it necessary to have FIL come to the house to apologize? In my view, if he were sincere, he would have just apologized on the spot, not need rehearsal time and a set performance venue.  Reading this I'm interpreting FIL approaching the whole thing as a negotiation, in which it is possible to come out ahead or behind. His comment that your DH just wants to humiliate him confirms that he is not acting in good faith here. And it sounds like so much projection. He presumes it's all about FIL's feelings, even to your DH who is the one who is hurt here, after all! Gah!

[Andeza]

Yes, sadly that offer of apology was not that he'd known he'd done something wrong, but rather that he knew he'd been caught and cornered. That he attempted to exert control over the situation is further proof that the "come to Jesus" meeting wasn't going to change anything. Empty apologies would have made your DH feel better for a time, extended the Fog a bit perhaps, but ultimately they would do something bad again to hurt him. And again. And again....

Please extend my condolences to your DH, if at all possible. He's standing in a very lonely and upsetting place right now.

[Hilltop]

I hope your husband is feeling a little better, its rough.  If your FIL was genuine he would have apologised on the spot.  There is no need to set up a time later to apologise.  That was actually quite weird.  Your FIL didn't want to apologise and obviously didn't believe he needed to.  He said he would do it later to buy himself time, he knew he would get out of it later, you will never hear an apology from him.  PD's simply cannot give apologies.  I don't really understand why but it just doesn't seem to be something they can do.  Perhaps an apology is admitting fault and in their mind they are never wrong, never at fault.

What I did find interesting is all the complaints they had about you.  It seems like a long list of slights which they have been silent on.  Of course this is the way isn't it.  When cornered then point the finger at the other person and blame blame blame.  Of course you are working and your husband made an effort to see them at the holidays but for them, no its easier to believe you are lying about being at work.  If there was anything genuine with them at all they would have wanted to talk and clear the air, when people blame and redirect the problems elsewhere well you aren't going to get far with them.

Even holding onto a slight that you didn't dress up enough, wow.  I mean you were there celebrating with them.  Its really obvious reading this that step MIL will put her daughters first and make sure that's how things stay.

I'm really sorry it didn't work out.  I must admit that years later I do feel better that I tried.  If I hadn't tried I really do think that part of me would have wondered if honest communication would have changed things.  At least now you know.  You had a conversation and most likely things won't change.  Later you won't second guess that.  You won't wonder if you should have done more.  I do think back to things I said and think I could have handled some things better but I did the best I could, my heart was genuine as was yours.  Ultimately it is their loss.  I hope your husband can see this one day.

[Maz]

So after the last blow up FIL told Dh we we're not his type of people just before Christmas. He told Dh to "go and live your life"

Christmas came and Dh received a Christmas card through the post but no phone call. Then in March it was Dh birthday. He received a birthday card through the post from FIL, Dh his father along with a text message saying happy birthday "I hope your feeling better"

What do others think of this and how would others manage this?

Would most people ignore and move on or would you say something?

It just feels a bit passive aggressive to me especially with the "hope your feeling better" as if Dh if mental unwell.

Any advice would be most welcome.

Thanks 😊

[Call Me Cordelia]

Typical. That's just a bang-beat gas-lighting', rug-sweeping', all-or-nothin', Rick-Rollin', every time projection shark bait hidden in a birthday card.

I vote no reaction. "I hope you're feeling better" indeed.  Nothing to say about it. You're busy living your life!

[Maz]

Hi Call me Cordelia,

Your dead right actually. It's a sneaky dig I think.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. 🙂

[Hilltop]

Hey Maz 'hope you are feeling better' is something my mother says and it really is blaming language. To me it was said in a way that is really pointing to the fact that your FIL is ok and happy and it's your DH that is struggling so hey hope you are better, the problem is all with you so hey you better fix yourself up.  It is quite dismissive and shows little empathy or concern or care.

Your FIL did however say something very important to your DH.  He told him that he wasn't their type of person and to go and live your life.  Although this is painful to hear at least your DH has the truth.  Your FIL has told him that they just simply don't get along that well.

Yep this is incredible painful to hear but I would go with this.  I would not react to the card, I would not respond. Obviously this is very hurtful for your DH but a card acknowledging that the pain is all your DH's alone is not worth responding to.  How incredibly selfish of your FIL to send a card that says 'hey I'm ok, this is all on you, this is your problem'.  Yeah I would not respond.

[moglow]

Wow. His *son and family* aren't his kind of people and son should go live his life??! All righty then. Rather hard to misunderstand or misinterpret that one. Heat of the moment or not, he didn't think that all the way through.


I'm going to be the hard headed minority here - I'd prob respond if mine "hoped I was feeling better" after a remark like that. I'd put on my happy face and say "Thank goodness  no one's been sick here - everyone's doing really well, thanks!"


[A while back i got a text nasty from mine and quickly responded with "always a joy to hear from you, mother" Whether she got it or not is in question, i just refused to sink to her level and wanted to be clear on that.]

[Maz]

Hi Hilltop,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. This was how I thought it was intended too. It felt bitchy and like a cheap shot.

It's really hard not to react as it's in my nature to want to protect the people I care about, I can totally see how this would be a good move.

It feels a little bit between a rock and a hard place.

Hi Moglow,

Thanks for replying. That was my initial thought to shine a light on all the bad behaviour. Sometimes when your dealing with a liar it doesn't matter what you say they just make another lie up thinking it will go away if they keep lying. To be honest it feels exhausting and it's really hurtful.

I'm glad that you can let it bounce off you, it's really hard to keep doing that sometimes.

My go to is to try and just be as honest as possible but it does feel like running in quick sand.

Thanks again for replying.