New Here: MIL Needs Constant Reassurance

[VooDooMamaJuJu]

I (38/F) was recommended this site via an Attachment Theory subreddit.  I think my MIL has either Anxious or Fearful attachment, but it's possible she has BPD.  I do know that she has previously been diagnosed bipolar (many years ago).

Some background: when my wife was young, my MIL tried to commit suicide multiple times.  So my wife took on a caretaker role very early on.  She now walks on eggshells with her Mom because she never knows what might trigger her Mom certain ways.

On the surface, her Mom seems like she is generally healthy and has likely made progress from whatever she was going through when my wife was young.  But she still seems quite fragile and I know she has never gone to therapy, so any kind of growth she has made would be just from her life experiences.

I am posting because I am losing patience with her need for reassurance so often and needing to tiptoe around her to make sure her feelings aren't hurt.  We craft our text responses certain ways so she won't read into them.  We make sure to inform her of things at certain times so she doesn't feel like she was left out or read into why or when she is informed.  Etc.

Most recently (and this is what prompted me to really look further into my frustrations) she and her husband stayed with us for a celebration we had at our house.  We had some lunch time plans made for the family and friends, but asked the night prior what their preference would be for breakfast (stay in and eat whatever was at the house or go to breakfast).  We also had a friend staying with us, who is pregnant, so we wanted to make sure everyone was comfortable with whatever we did as a group.  They all just said they were cool with anything, so we said we would go to breakfast.  Well, several of us were up at 7am and I checked in again on going out, they said yes.  I said that I just needed to be somewhere at 10am before the day's activities, but if we were still eating at that point, I could just duck out early.  My MIL leaves to get ready, but takes two hours to do so (meanwhile her husband is just hanging out in pajamas).  She then comes downstairs, smiling, no concern or awareness of time, and asks her husband if he wants a cup of coffee and proceeds to make him a new one.  He is still not getting ready, it is past 9am.  I tell my wife I won't be able to go with them to breakfast, I'll just eat at home and then run the errand.  Our pregnant friend eventually says to my MIL "are we ready to go eat?" and my MIL says "oh, my husband still needs to get ready."  I then say that I'm going to stay behind so I can run the errand and she makes a shocked face and then says "we can wait for you to come back" and I said it would be lunch time at that point.  Then my MIL tells her husband that we won't go to breakfast because they want to spend time with me.  Our friend suggests she and my wife go and pick up food, which I agree with.

After they leave, my MIL isn't making eye contact with me, she is being overly joke-y with her husband, and doesn't really respond to any of my bids to just sort of be cordial and friendly in hopes it will blow over.  She eventually asks ME if I'm ok (which doesn't surprise me, because I think she was ruminating over the possibility that she upset me), to which I happily tell her I'm totally fine and just want to make sure they are relaxed and can eat at their leisure, which is why I was just going to take care of the errand.  (This is accurate, I didn't really care about my going to breakfast because I knew I could eat regardless, but I felt bad for our pregnant friend, and generally felt like my MIL was being very inconsiderate of everyone else).

Other things similar to this happened over the weekend and happen generally, fairly regularly.  I don't see her more than like once a month, so it's not so much that it is taking a major toll on my daily life, but I would love to be able to just communicate with her in a way where she isn't constantly seeking reassurance or worried she upset someone, and would also just appreciate her being more thoughtful of others.  She is very self-focused, even though I am fairly certain she sees it as focused on everyone else and pleasing them.

Any advice?

[bloomie]

VooDooMamaJuJu - HI and welcome to Out of the FOG!

Thanks for sharing a bit of the frustrating and what sounds like inexplicable interactions with your mil. Even though the contact is once a month or so, it seems like the eggshells you are required to walk on to not upset your mil cast a shadow over every interaction. A kind of pervasive waiting for the next moment when your mil will spiral into a state of anxiety over perceived and imagined slights.

Having an early history of literally being responsible for her mother's life, as your wife has experienced, can set the stage to continue caretaking a grown adult's potential emotional reactions to normal, everyday interactions. That is a hard way to continue living.

I grew up with an unstable mother who also repeatedly threatened or attempted to harm herself. It isn't possible to quantify how deep the after shocks of living with that level of hypervigilgence as a young child goes. My heart goes out to both you and your wife. It is a complicated healing process especially when you are still experiencing the power and control your mil's emotions and moods, responses has over your lives.

I understand the desire to communicate in a way that would reassure your mil, but what if your mil isn't wanting reassurance? What if your mil is using her 'delicate' state to control and continue in a way of life that allows her to be carried around on a fluffy cloud all the while dominating an entire group of people as they wait on her to eat a meal?

Here's the thing... it sounds like your mil had/or has some pretty significant mental health issues that, to your knowledge, she hasn't gotten help and healing for or considered how those years may have hurt her daughter. Your mil may not be threatening or attempting to harm herself, but that potential may continue to be a specter over yours and your dear wife's lives and may be driving all of the interactions as you all tip toe around her.

While it would be so great if I could offer you the exact way to communicate and phrase things so that your mil would not need such reassurance my best thoughts are to offer some tools and resources that may help you begin to break free from cooperating with what may be disordered behaviors on your mil's part.

There is a great jumping in book recommend called Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist by Margalis Fjelstadt, that might be of good help to you. A review can be found here: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=87017.msg746283#msg746283

An article that has been eye-opening and helpful for me looks at the four archetypes of the Borderline Mother is found here:
https://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/borderline-mother-types?rq=waif

The toolbox at the dropdown menu above is something that I return to over and again to continue reinforcing healthy boundaries, learn effective coping tools and strategies, and to strengthen my resolve to continue working toward a consistent pattern of interactions with unpredictable loved ones.

I am really glad you reached out to the community. I hope you will continue to read and interact and that the forum brings help and insights into the complicated situation you are faced with.

[VooDooMamaJuJu]

Bloomie, thank you so much for your empathy.  Everything you wrote resonates and brought me some much needed validation.

The link to the description of BP Mother Types was eye-opening.  I know there's a disclaimer here regarding name-calling, so if this is breaking those rules, please let me know and I will edit, but she sounds like the "waif" type.  Understanding that all of these behaviors are linked and expected to occur as a group is helpful.  Though at the same time discouraging, knowing it's something to anticipate inevitably.

It makes sense that not trying to "solve" this is the healthier route.  What about my wife?  Is there something I can provide support for there?  I don't know for sure if reading something would be relieving for her or just make her sad.  Her relationship with her Mom is loving, but her Mom is still the woman I described and my wife is definitely used to walking on eggshells at this point and has essentially learned how to "just navigate" it for the path of least resistance.

I have concerns for the long term future though and how this interaction with her Mom could cause unexpected friction (in whichever direction, with us and her, with one of us and her, between us, etc).

Thanks so much!

[lkdrymom]

This seemed like a lot of miscommunications.  At 7am why didn't someone just say "we'd like to leave for breakfast at 8:30".  That would have given everyone plenty of time to get ready.  I remember being this frustrated with my ex-husbands' family.  They could not get themselves organized for anything.  Everyone wondering off in different directions, no one taking the lead.  I wanted to scream "Are we ready to go or what?" but back then I was very meek and did not raise my voice.  Amazing what 30 years can do to a person.

[VooDooMamaJuJu]

Ikdrymom, I agree, there was lack of communication.  Unfortunately, I was waiting for my wife to say something (which I had pulled her aside when time seemed to be ticking away and said we would need to leave by 9 at the latest, but even then, that that was pushing it).  My wife didn't follow up with her Mom, and I can't really know why without asking her first, but I assume it's because she is afraid of giving her Mom direction, for whatever reason.  Whether that means she thinks her Mom will read into it or take it the wrong way, etc, I don't know.  I think my wife was hoping her Mom would realize how late it was and that she would suddenly appear and my wife wouldn't need to say anything.

That said, as I mentioned in my original post, this was not the only incident.  She also brought her dog with her who urinated multiple times inside and out on our porch ("because he's mad", she said), as well as mount our puppy over and over, and she would brush it off in the moment from across the room, "oh dog, stop that!"  But never actually intervene or apologize when it happened.

Is this an AITA situation?  Now I don't know what to think.  Should I not be bothered by this?  Is this a me problem?

[square]

No, you're not the A. Your MIL seems to be totally clueless at best or actively manipulative at worst.

Unfortunately, we can't change other people's behavior, only our own. I have been in situations where I felt like you, the stress mounting silently while waiting for someone else to realize they were being a problem, hoping and praying they would suddenly come to and we could just move on. Not only is it a stressful way to handle a situation, it has the horrible countereffect of putting the spotlight on ME and my efforts to control my feelings as I might start to betray my frustration with terser statements and such, even if I tried to be all syrupy to hide it. Suddenly I'm the bad guy and ruined the day and I don't even understand how it all happened.

With human beings who can maturely manage their time and have a bit of awareness of other people, you can just say what you said. Now you know MIL cannot be depended upon. So, the trick is to clearly communicate up front in plenty of time what needs to happen. But the most important bit is your Plan B, whether you communcate it or not.

"Sounds like everyone is open to eating out for breakfast. If we can leave by 8:15am, we can go to X. But if that doesn't work out, I'll go at 8:30 and just pick up some bagels."

Now you are golden. Your day no longer depends on her. If going out happens, great. If they can't get their acts together, you can breezily go for bagels and know you are in the clear.

Now. It's not that easy. If she is toxic, she will attempt to say, oh, well, we're almost ready, you don't need to get bagels now do you dear? Your task is to stay cool and hold the line. "I'll get bagels this morning so I can keep my appointment, but maybe we can do breakfast out tomorrow. I'd like that."

Or maybe you will get little comments, after bringing home bagels, about how "look, we had pleeeeenty pf time to have gone out, there was no need to have ruined breakfast over a teeny two minute delay, and here we are just waiting around for no reason."

Your task would be to feel extremely good that you took the bull by the horns, congratulate yourself for not having fallen for it, fill yourself with satisfaction, and say "oh, but this worked out so much better! Maybe we can go for breakfast tomorrow though!"

[Cat of the Canals]

Unfortunately, we can't change other people's behavior, only our own.

This. And it applies to your MIL and your wife (in terms of whether or not she can come to terms with her mother's disordered behavior or not).

That means that, for example, while you might make the decision to stop putting so much effort into your text messages so there won't be any "misunderstandings," your wife might continue to do so. That's her choice.

Moving forward, I'd suggest you start articulating certain boundaries for yourself. What you will/will not do when it comes to your MIL. (And yes, there probably will be friction. I'd predict that MIL will play the victim to your wife. "Why oh why is VooDooMamaJuJu mad at me?" That's par for the course.)

I second the Stop Caretaking book recommendation. As for sharing it with your wife, you could always ask directly if she's willing to discuss it or read it herself. The thing is, as a daughter of a PDmom, the sadness was already there, long before I knew what it was. If anything, learning more about why my mother is the way she is allowed me to drop all the guilt I'd been carrying around as a result of thinking it was somehow my fault.

[moglow]

IS she actually helpless and needing constant reassurance that no one is mad at her, or is she in fact setting others up to fail so she can feel all righteous? There, I said it for you. Mine would do [and has done] things along that line, all my life. Be deliberately provocative, whether by word or deed, then melt down when anyone dared mention that she "needs to/should have" implying that she has any responsibility whatsoever for her own behavior. No sir, someone else MUST be to blame and she'll take the path of least resistance even then, picking the perceived underdog or inlaw [who may or may not already be in the doghouse him/herself]. There would likely be no direct hostility or anger, but plenty slamming and banging and looks and mumbling just where it can be heard.

With mine - and I suspect your wife has experienced same - you never dared confront her directly, not even to "Mom, we're leaving at 830am, and everyone else is ready. Get it together so we can go." then actually following through, leaving the dawdlers sitting there. She could absolutely go volcanic eruption, taking out everything and everyone in her path, or straight up pillar of salt. No way to know, but you wanted no part of it regardless. Mother was notorious for her performances, and just when you thought you could predict she came out with new and improved techniques. Thing is, when you grow up in that, you know how it plays out and it never ends well even as adults. It becomes easier to go along to get along, no matter what the ultimate cost later or who it inconveniences in the meantime. You just do what is needed to get through until next time.

Mother had a steaming pile of passive aggressive bullshit she'll trot out as needed. I suspect your MIL has some of the same, always carefully packaged so she's the innocent victim of it all. Boundaries will be your friend.

[VooDooMamaJuJu]

Thank you everyone for the additional responses.  It's honestly incredibly helpful, at a minimum for my sanity, and additionally, just in how I am thinking about discussing some things with my wife.

I also ordered the book!  So I'm looking forward to learning more about how to navigate all of this in a healthy way.

This community seems really wonderful.  I'm grateful to have found it.

[treesgrowslowly]

Awesome advice already given here.

As I read your post, yep, "waif type" screams out at me as very likely, as these are the behaviours that we see in waif types.

Totally agree with what Square wrote here. It can be somewhat straightforward to start making clear statements to her "we need to leave by 8 am" but if she's toxic, then she will simply move the goal posts and work to manipulate the situation to continue getting attention or her way.

It isn't easy to learn how to manage someone with waif type behaviours but there are things you can do to help your own sanity for sure!!

Taking 2 hours to get ready without checking that everyone else wants to wait 2 hours for her to get ready, and without realizing she was delaying everyone is the red flag here. A person with typical levels of self awareness wouldn't do that.

As Square said, at best she's totally clueless, at worst she's being manipulative. Either way, you'll definitely learn how to better manage her behaviours from the knowledge about narcissism that you're learning about.

If someone is truly just clueless, then their similar clueless behaviours would be seen across different settings with different people. If she manages to be prompt and on time withsome people but not others, or at some times she's less clueless than at other times, that is more data to suggest she's being manipulative when she goes into waif mode.

You won't be able to change her either way. You'll be able to plan ahead for what she might do though - so you get to enjoy breakfast next time!

Trees

[NarcKiddo]

No, you're not the A.

Is your wife showing any signs of "seeing the light"? If not, I would advise treading very carefully about discussing things with her. For years when I was totally in the FOG still, I might complain about my mother to my husband and some things he said would be OK but then all of a sudden he would cross an invisible line and I would bite his head off. The line was invisible to me, let alone him, so there was no way to know if he was in dangerous territory except that I would start feeling uncomfortable shortly before snapping.

There may be something to be said for taking on the role of the A as far as your MIL is concerned, should you feel up to it and your wife is agreeable. My husband is fine with playing bad cop - he hates my mother anyway and she him. These days we might agree that he will because I have woken up to mother. But in years gone by if my husband had said "we really need to be getting a move on" I may well not have had the guts to say something to my mother. If he had asked me if it was OK for him to say something I would probably have said "no" as I would have been scared of what mother would say/do. But if he had simply put his foot down and said nicely "we are now too late to do x, so I will do y. You are welcome to go along with y or do something else as you see fit. I will be back by [time] and we can continue our day together" both mother and I would probably have just gone along with y.

[VooDooMamaJuJu]

NarcKiddo, I'm not sure yet.  My wife is definitely aware of her Mom's behaviors as an existence, which is why she tip-toes around her and has told me to, but I don't know if my addressing it would trigger something.  If she's already protecting her Mom, would that only trigger her to protect her more?

My wife has been doing this with her Mom for so long that she seems to have developed the tendency to be hypervigilant and caretake even when the other person has not shown any of the same symptoms.  I think she just learned to function this way.  And from what I read, it sounds like it's hard for those impacted by PDs to differentiate the feeling of being needed with love or something else, which is why people get burnt out.  It feels good until it wears you down?  Being needed signifies worth, so their self-worth cannot be created from within, but only externally through being needed?

That said, I have no issue being bad cop, even unsaid bad cop.  And strangers on the internet giving me permission to do so is enough.  Because previously I was just getting feedback from my wife saying she worries about how her Mom will react and guiding me to "address" things the way she does. 

My MIL will be here again for Thanksgiving, so this is a good opportunity to test all of this.  Especially because we will need to schedule cooking and eating times.  So I will just overcommunicate and give a very clear schedule and direction.

Wish me luck!

[bloomie]

VooDooMamaJuJu - I wish you all the luck herding the cats through Thanksgiving! Let us know how it goes!!

[lkdrymom]

I reread your post to see what the hold your MIL has on your wife.  I see the suicide.  As an adult, does your wife truly believe that anything she said would be the cause of her mother committing suicide? That has to be a heavy burden to carry.  There is a point where she will have to realize her mother is responsible to for own wellbeing, not your wife.  What happens when your MIL makes a demand of you or your wife that you cannot grant....would you be concerned she would harm herself?  You see where I am going with this.  Your wife cannot spend the next 30 years appeasing her mother and have a healthy life of her own.  I realize the problems today are minor (making everyone miss breakfast) but they will get worse.  Are you two willing to spend the next 30 years giving in to whatever she wants?  I think this needs to be addressed with your wife first.  Until you are both on the same page nothing will ever change.  Then you may have permission to be the A and set some boundaries with MIL.

[VooDooMamaJuJu]

UPDATE:

The eve before Thanksgiving, I made sure to go over the timeline with everyone at the same time for the following day so there wouldn't be any miscommunication.  My MIL asked me when I was waking up to start cooking and I told her "probably around 6 or 7."  She responded, "oh wow, that's not too early."  And I said that the green beans I was making would take the longest because they are slow cooked for 8-10 hours, so they should be ready for dinner at 5pm.  She immediately sat back in her chair and gasped, "5pm?!"  I was trying to quickly channel everything I remembered from this community and didn't react to her reaction.  My wife responded to her and said, "It'll be ok."  And it took everything in me to not say anything else and ask her if that was ok with her or if she was concerned about it.

She shut down quickly after that and had a different vibe for the rest of the night.  She was quieter, her cheerfulness was gone, and her smiles and conversation felt forced.

I thought that maybe if she sleeps on it, whatever anxiety she has will have some time to dissipate and we'll reset in the morning.  The issue then became me though.  I was overly concerned with her happiness and I started to get anxious myself that Thanksgiving would have this gray cloud of awkwardness over it now.  I just wanted to enjoy the day and have fun and everyone to be in good spirits.

I eventually pulled her aside the next morning and said, "I noticed you seemed concerned about the dinner time last night."  She said that it was later than she had thought it would be.  I told her I thought about it and that we could try to move things up a couple of hours.  She immediately seemed relieved and thanked me.

Her vibe still seemed off the rest of the day though.  I kept asking my wife if her Mom was ok and she said that she was and that she's probably just anxious.  I asked her why she would be anxious after we moved the time up and she said that her Mom probably wanted more tasks (like cooking, etc) and I told her that is absolutely fine if her Mom wants to help out.  (My family spent years taking care of the kids, so now they really appreciate the next generation taking care of things while they relax, so I default to assuming I am doing things like cooking and hosting as an act of service while letting everyone else hang out, but have NO issue with receiving help, I welcome it.  I just don't demand/expect it.)  I gave my wife a list of options her Mom could help with but nothing came of it and she ultimately went to take a nap.

At the end of the day, it was "fine" and once our friends came over I was able to focus my attention elsewhere and we had a great time.  I am just starting to wonder if this will be a pattern (also based on previous feedback I received here).

I don't know whether I did the right thing because ultimately this helped my ability to relax vs worry about her comfort, and it wasn't a huge deal to shift the time.  But I don't want to fan the flames either.  Thoughts on how this transpired?

[moglow]

I think you did fine - I'd have probably let her know up front that Thanksgiving dinner would be 5pm and left it at that. But I know too, give too much heads up and she could still raise a huff. I can guarantee mine would! Maybe it's some kind of control issue, that she wasn't consulted or thinks she can't eat until 5pm at all? Thing is, she's a guest in your home. She was invited to dinner. If she were hosting different issue entirely then she can serve whenever she likes. As a guest, most of us understand and respect that the hosts have multiple considerations. So yeah- frustrating but in the end, not your stuff.

Honestly I think catering even to the mini-pouts rarely serves anyone. The incessant hand holding and kowtowing gets old and there's somehow always a new hurdle. Holding on to that gray rock medium chill attitude while you enjoy the rest of the guests is your best defense. She may want the whole world to center around her but that's just not always the case.

[lkdrymom]

I think you did fine but I also think you didn't need to adjust the time. You were coddling her again.  If she is hosting, she gets to pick the time.  While you are working in the right direction, I think you all are still 'hand holding' her too much.  I think you need to ignore the mini-pout. Either she gets over it or she can waste valuable time pouting.  The trick is to not let it affect anyone else.  You wife has been conditioned to anticipate her mother's anxiety and do whatever it takes to appease her.  That basically reinforces her bad behavior.

[NarcKiddo]

I get why you adjusted the time, though I agree with those who say it was probably not necessary. These holiday occasions just add pressure because we want them to be nice for everyone and for there not to be an atmosphere. PDs know how to milk this.

What jumps out at me is your wife's behaviour. You laid out a clear timeline. MIL did not react positively. But your wife said to her "it'll be OK". That looks to me like total support for your approach rather than appeasement of MIL. Did you discuss the time adjustment with your wife before promising it to MIL? As the child of a PD I do very badly with people chopping and changing things, especially if it is sprung on me. I have a need to know what is happening, and when, so that I can mentally prepare myself for it. It doesn't help me at all if the change is to something I would prefer if that change is last minute and I have already been adjusting myself to something else. I think one of the reasons I really struggled with the Covid lockdowns was because here in the UK our government dithered over them. We all knew they must be coming and I found the will they/won't they excruciating. Just let me know where I am. I can deal with a bad situation so long as I know what it is. None of this may apply to your wife but I mention it in case she actually welcomes you running the show when MIL is around.

I also think it might be better in future for you not to focus so much on MIL when interacting with your wife. If she thinks you are worried about MIL it may give her more to worry about.  Plus you get the situation where MIL gets given a load of ways she can help. All the focus is on MIL. And MIL then blithely ignores all those options and takes a nap! It's so tough when we really want to be nice and have a happy time. I don't want you to feel discouraged by what I have said. You did fine, but I'm just pointing out where I think there may be alternative ways to react if similar situations arise.

[bloomie]

VooDooMamaJuJu - I am glad the day ended up being a good one that you could enjoy! Adjusting the meal time was a kind gesture and only you can decide if it helped dissipate the tension you were feeling from your mil or not. It certainly isn't a right or wrong thing. Just an option you tried and something you were able to be very gracious in.

I will say with my own mil that she has a rigid mindset toward food and eating in general and the when and how of it in specific. So, holiday meals are 'supposed' to be mid day. No matter who is hosting. It is interesting that both struggles you share from your recent experiences were possibly around food and meal times. This is a real covertly fought battle ground with my own mil. Not having control over her food gets dicey and the atmosphere gets thick with unspoken disapproval and disappointment. Accommodating others and going with the flow, especially around the structure of holidays or time spent together, is near impossible for my own mil. 

Something that I am realizing is rearing its head in my own life right now is working on getting comfortable with being uncomfortable with another's discomfort. I sure hope that makes sense. I am needing to decrease my reactivity to someone else's emotional stuff that is playing out that I have no control over or responsibility for.

When there is truly nothing upsetting happening and someone is anxious or unhappy or dysregulated the challenge for me is to find the line between compassion and trying to fix it or make it better. It is a natural part of hosting someone in our home to be attuned to their comfort. Finding the line between a reasonable level of concern and over compensating is tough.

Now, about those slow cooked green beans...sounds interesting.