Not JADEing and other stuff - advice needed

Julian R · June 27, 2019, 09:30:58 AM

Hi. I have not been around for a bit but i am struggling in some areas and need some advice please. I wasn't sure if this is the best place for this but here goes ...

I have taken on board the whole non JADEing thing but it seems to be producing a downside that I feel uncomfortable with.

My unDPW has a habit of complaining at length about issues, or more so people at work (we both work for the same organisation, which is an added complication!) She sees injustices and unfairness and unkindness everywhere, misinterprets or distorts things that are said, making herself out to be the victim ... So, as i say, she will complain at length at home about people in the work place - it really can go on a longtime and there is a lot of distorted thinking.

Now, I have been practising not JADEing, trying to avoid circular conversations. I say little and what I do say is very non-committal but the problem is she is seeking approval and agreement and I don't agree with a lot of what she says and where I do agree it is in a quite nuanced way. The problem is she will take my non-committal / vagueness and silence, as approval and agreement. She assumes that as I do not express disagreement with her that I agree with her. When I do express disagreement then she gets very upset, can become angry and uses belittling language and just goes on and on marshalling evidence from a distorted mind, trying to verbally obtain submission.

I have a number of questions that trouble me and would like advice on:

1) How can one avoid JADEing without falling into the trap of the other person assuming you agree with them, even if you have not explicitly said you do so?

2) Is the very fact that my wife goes on and on and on a form of brainwashing / emotional abuse? And what strategies can be used to stop it? (I have tried asking her nicely and gently - she does not stop> I have tried explaining that her carrying on in this way is getting me down and harming our marriage. She does not stop. I have tried getting cross she just gets even crosser. I have tried walking out of the room, she will just follow and tell me off. I have tried changing subject she just changes it back. Basically if I do anything that shows I disagree with her point of view she accuses me of not supporting her and siding with her enemies (well they are enemies only in her mind but not really enemies)

3) I feel that her going on and on can affect my own judgement of people and how I relate to them. I can find it difficult to form or maintain my own opinions in the face of her toxic outpourings., I can doubt reality as I see it when her presentation of reality can be so different and persuasive. What is going on? How to stop it?

SonofThunder · June 27, 2019, 09:57:06 AM

Hi Julian,

I read your post and want to add a slight perspective input into no JADE and MC. Does your wife have girlfriends she talks to? If she were to tell them about all the work issues, what responses (as a friend) would her girlfriends give her?

There is a way to listen, accept another persons opinions and in a certain way, tell them that i heard you, i care about you and im sorry you feel that way. But...that response doesnt have to mean i agree.

Im guessing her girlfriends dont respond with "non-committal, vagueness and silence" but rather "OMG WifeofJulian!...injustice, unfairness and unkindness sucks! I wish people would stop being jerks...who do people think they are that they can treat others unkindly!" And then, the move on to another subject or one similar, that keeps a conversation going. Im guessing your wife has no trouble gabbing with girlfriends, but you, a different story. At least thats my experience, so i try to noJADE and comment like one of MrsSOT's friends and move on.

That above response doesnt say "i agree". How could they....they dont even know the people. But it does say "i heard you, i care about you and im sorry you are experiencing that". So, as an added tidbit to NoJade and MC, try and think like her girlfriends would think and respond, which is more neutral to the subject matter, but caring to the person who brought the subject up in discussion.

SoT.

athene1399 · June 28, 2019, 08:00:59 AM

I agree with SoT. It's possible she's going on and on because she doesn't feel heard. I think his suggestion is great for showing you heard without agreeing with her. Like "I'm sorry this is happening." or "how frustrating for you." She may still take that as agreement. I feel some with PDs need to get us on their side and get frustrated when others don't feel/agree with what they are experiencing. I also think a lot with PDs were never heard as children. So try with the showing her you hear and understand what she is saying and see what happens.

it does suck that you are trying to end the conversation by leaving the room and that is not working. That is frustrating! And emotionally draining. Maybe if she feels heard she will let you end the conversation. Please let us know if this helps. If not, we can brainstorm something else together.

TriedTooHard · June 28, 2019, 08:41:42 AM

Oh, do I feel for you. I have a co-worker who does this.

I find that while non-PDs just need to vent every now and then and don't need a solution, the PDs think they need a solution, even if its not a real solution.
There once was a time when I thought this was dishonest and manipulative, but its all about protecting ourselves.

Just the other day, here are some "solutions" that I threw out there:

"Have you tried keeping a log?"
"Did you put a reminder on your electronic calendar?"
"Do you keep a 'to-do' list?"
"I wonder what HR would say if you told them?"

Those seemed to satisfy the uPD, for the time being. Good luck.

bloomie · June 28, 2019, 09:32:05 AM

Julian R - If this is an established kind of negative pattern with your wife and these are distorted perceptions of others I guess I may see this a bit differently than others who have responded.

I have a family member who I believe is predominately uHPD who has similar behaviors and no amount of head nodding or that's too bad, I'm sorry to hear that, or suggestions will stop the soul sucking on and on and onimus of her aggressive monologues about herself and bitter verbal attacks on others in our shared sphere.

In her case she is not looking to be heard, she is dominating in all verbal exchanges consistently across all areas of her life and my single role in all conversations is to acknowledge her as right, in a one up position or having been abused in some way, and to express agreement and form an unhealthy alliance with her disordered views and perceptions of others.

Sending the message... I hear you, I care about you even if I see things differently is very tricking with a high conflict and defensive person.

In a committed relationship, if we are missing the mark and our partner does not feel heard by us despite our best efforts, it is their responsibility to tell us that and to manage their behaviors and responses in a respectful way when we do not see something the same way. Each one is 100% responsible to communicate in empowered and respectful ways.

That doesn't mean you cannot be a empathetic listener, but in my own situation even a vague type of response is like fanning the flames of negativity and she will use even a neutral response as confirmation bias in other settings, such as the work setting, that I do not want to be attached to in any way.

If your wife is experiencing this much anxiety and difficulty relating to others at work there are trained professionals to help her through this - therapists.

Verbally aggressive people, who are not even pretending to have an exchange of ideas and thoughts and who refuse to pay attention to the way their verbal unloading is impacting those they love are very hard to live with. Especially at the end of a long day or week.

A couple of ideas... you set the boundary that home is a no work talk zone for either of you. Period. It is your safe place and a place to unwind and rest. If something vital comes up for either of you that is work related you can make an appointment to go outside of your home and get some coffee and give it 30 minutes. Period. Or you could set a limit on work talk when you first get home. Each gets 10 minutes to update on the day and then it is a peaceful zone. And hold to it. Set a timer if you need to.

Having an honest conversation about how you want to have an atmosphere at home that is healthy and positive and best for the growth of your relationship and agreeing ahead of time that you have a time out kind of phrase that each must respect... such as "No more work talk." and that it stops immediately because it is negatively impacting one of you and your home life might be a big help as well.

These are just some thoughts that really are about having boundaries with consequences attached. Good luck working through this. It is a tough balance in showing regard and listening with someone who is coming across as ravenous and seemingly intent on owning all verbal and emotional space and driving our perceptions of others.

LemonLime · June 28, 2019, 09:44:39 AM

I'm sorry you're dealing with this Julian. I could have written a similar post about my uPD sib. The only difference is that she takes my vague answers and silence as Dissent. If I am not enthusiastically agreeing with her slaying of this other person, I am labelled "Enemy". And then the guns are turned on me. The drama escalates, the voice gets higher-pitched and more frenetic, the face redder, the indignation more righteous.

I'm having an ah-ha moment after reading Son of Thunder's post. I should have done what he suggests. Agree with her like her girlfriends would have. I really think it would have worked. I didn't even consider that all of this time; I didn't have that skill. Now our relationship has deteriorated beyond repair, I fear.

I don't want to treat you like a lab rat Julian. But if you're willing, would you try experimenting with SOT's method and then report back? Seems like you will have lots of opportunity to test out this skill

If it works, this could be a valuable tool for the rest of us.

Granted, the situation is a little more complicated for you versus your wife's girlfriends, given that you work with these people too. Your wife may expect more allegiance from you since "you were there". The girlfriends are more distant from the situation. But anyhow, I bet this way of interacting with her will do SOMETHING to change up the dynamic. So curious!

Note: Just read Bloomie's post, which was posted just a minute before mine. Those are very good insights as well. I love the idea of consequences. Maybe a combination of both the empathy and the consequences will be helpful.

SonofThunder · June 28, 2019, 03:19:45 PM

Bloomie,

I agree with Kat about your insightful input about some folks who are "dominating in all verbal exchanges across all areas of life....and high conflict/defensive..." (your words). My uNPDf is one of those and with him, i must do more of what Julian has done with "vagueness and silence" and simply move along. But i dont live with my uNPDf and i would not. My uPDw is also high conflict/defensive, and when her focus is on me in those ways, i dont respond like one of her girlfriends but rather noJADE and MC and physically leave the room if possible in a calm manner after simply conveying something that says "im sorry you feel that way".

When my uPDw is ranting about someone else who is not present to hear it, i have found it harmless and helpful to respond more like one of her girlfriends, as i described in my previous post, being careful not to agree to the claims made, but rather acknowledging that they have been heard as a friend.

You also wrote:

"A couple of ideas... you set the boundary that home is a no work talk zone for either of you. Period. It is your safe place and a place to unwind and rest. If something vital comes up for either of you that is work related you can make an appointment to go outside of your home and get some coffee and give it 30 minutes. Period. Or you could set a limit on work talk when you first get home. Each gets 10 minutes to update on the day and then it is a peaceful zone. And hold to it. Set a timer if you need to.

Having an honest conversation about how you want to have an atmosphere at home that is healthy and positive and best for the growth of your relationship and agreeing ahead of time that you have a time out kind of phrase that each must respect... such as "No more work talk." and that it stops immediately because it is negatively impacting one of you and your home life might be a big help as well. "

———

I am a believer that boundaries can only be enforced on ourselves. Therefore what you stated would not work in my home and would be met with "high conflict/defensive". I cannot control what my uPDw talks about or how long, but only what i talk about or choose to listen to. In my home, trying to create an "agreement" is fodder for my uPDw to purposefully thwart for the thrill of control.

Again, i believe your input is excellent and each person, situation and conversation must be quickly analyzed for the appropriate response-type to be given.

SoT

treesgrowslowly · June 28, 2019, 05:09:51 PM

Hi,

When I read your post I wondered about her level of self awareness. If she can reflect on why she does this, not defend her right to do it, which is not the same thing, but reflect on what she feels when she's doing this, she may be able to discover what she wants to be validated for.

Does she want you to believe her assessments of these people or does she want validation for how stressed she can end up feeling around them? Is she resentful towards them and trying to work that out verbally with someone she knows is safe to divulge her feelings with? Those are all different and she could find some real relief for herself if she discovered what she really wants to feel during and after these venting periods.

We vent to feel relief don't we? But venting doesn't provide relief. When people feel relieved after venting it is because they avoided going from venting to distorted thinking. It's not the venting that gives us relief its the realization, upon hearing ourselves vent, that we can "let it go".

People with distorted thoughts are struggling to do. Letting it go, with grace. Not a PD strength...just look at all the evidence of this on the boards.... But can be learned. With time and guidance probably with therapy.

There are probably real injustices in her past. Her strategy of venting at you will never give her relief from her frustration about the injustices she sees. It is exhausting for both of you. She does sound frustrated by your co-workers. Sadly, venting doesn't ever resolve that. It tends to make us even more frustrated. As others have mentioned she sounds anxious. I'm going to suggest she is anxious about what would happen if she accepted these people for who they are, and accept that she is responsible for her behaviour around them.

If she doesn't have good boundaries with them then she may very well be caught up with the consequences of not having healthy boundaries with co-workers. Her venting is a part of this cycle of not having boundaries that would prevent some of the things she gets annoyed with. Possibly. I'm spit balling.

Trees

Julian R · June 29, 2019, 06:53:03 AM

Hello
Thank you everyone for your kind and helpful replies. There is much to think about (and act upon).
I will reply more fully with further observations and comments in a couple of days when I have more time and space, but just wanted to show signs of life now to say that I have read the comments and to show my appreciation.

bloomie · June 29, 2019, 06:42:27 PM

Just popping back in... not sure I was clear, as I got a bit lost with your response directed to me SOT and don't want to hijack Julian's thread here.

So to clarify, I see this as first and foremost a "we" problem. A communication challenge in the relationship. Julian didn't present his issue as one where his wife would respond to first attempting to find common ground, unity in purpose, and goals for the tenor of the home would be met with his wife attempting to "purposefully thwart for the thrill of control." unless I missed that somehow and I most certainly could've.

Ime having been married a very long time, having worked with my H, having been surrounded by PD family members and peers, having both come into the marriage with some problematic fleas, any union requires the building of common and agreed upon boundaries for things attempting to come into the relationship and harm it and things taking place within the relationship that can cause potential harm. And those limits and boundaries would be based on common shared values and goals and require clear communication and honesty. I don't know how one would address issues if there were no foundation of boundaries and limits that define the relationship from which to work from. All of which can happen within the context of empathetic, respectful communication. And so often, setting ourselves up for success in the relationship and working through this kind of thing is not instinctive and we cannot count on our partner "knowing" how painful their on and on and onimus is to us.

If that fails, and it does with disordered folks very often when even mutually agreed upon limits and boundaries are not respected, then we can move to limiting our exposure to the toxic conversation such as offering to listen and support for a specific amount of time with certain triggering issues and if necessary, setting a personal boundary of leaving the conversation however that would be best done.

So, for example in our own marriage the conversations around my in laws and the many issues there were dominating our time together and we had to work through when/how/if to talk through those issues and for us that was setting limits on how much time we would give over to all of that negative stuff. I hope that is more clear.

Back to Julian R... a really great resource for us has been the book Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend.

Good luck with all of this Julian R. I know we are all rooting for you to find a solution that works best for your relationship.

Julian R · July 01, 2019, 06:10:42 AM

Hello and thanks again.

I have the opportunity to reply in depth to your comments and suggestions. Last evening was a bad one at home - I am feeling emotionally bruised

I feel that Bloomie's first post especially resonated with my situation. Thank you.

I do appreciate nevertheless SoTs suggestion of possible alternative ways of communicating - even though I am pessimistic about whether they will make any difference. I will try that kind of comment.

To share a bit more of how I react - I believe I am generally a good and patient listener. When my wife first raises an issue I do seek to engage with her in a genuine and helpful way. The problem I find is that the longer she goes on it just wears me down to the point first that I start to disengage and not say a lot and then to the point that I can lose it a bit and express my frustration in ways that just inflames the situation (like last night) We are talking about an issue that first occurred on June 5th and that has been fuelling her frequent rants ever since with no real signs of moving on - just repeating the same stuff, or indeed adding to it by over analysing and interpreting and just digging a bigger hole and getting in a worse state - a kind of distorted thinking fuelling more distorted thinking and creating growing dynamic of anxiety..

Someone mentioned that PDs want a solution - well my experience with my uPDw is that she does not seem to want a solution, any attempt to find a reasonable solution is met with scorn, she just seems to want to go on endlessly talking about it. I have at times asked her why she feels the need to do this but she has never answered that question. It is this inability to move on that really causes problems (for us both).

Someone asked about her self awareness. I believe she is not very self aware. She is convinced of being right about her distorted convictions. She is not aware of how it is impacting me or our relationship. Where she does seem to have a little awareness growing is of her anxiety levels. Interestingly one of her girl friends told her following the incident question that in this particular instance her manager was right, that she (my wife) had overreacted and that she should see a therapist. I would never have got away with saying that! But she has actually contacted a therapist (six free sessions available with our health service here). I just fear that the therapist will take her at face value, be recruited as an ally and not really get to the bottom of what is going on) But this is a bit of a remarkable step forward. i just don't think it will help much (it hasn't in the past, not has marriage counselling).

These patterns have been going on, more or less intensely for over 20 years of marriage. I am kind of aware of the boundary thinking. I admit that boundaries are missing but struggle to see how after so long , how they could be put into place and enforced. Personally I would like not to talk about work in the home, and to limit the amount of time "issues" are talked about, and when. But I can't see my UDPw agreeing to this, nor how to enforce it. But yes, I should get my hands on a copy of the book recommended.

Thank you for bearing with me. i feel very frustrated ... and alone ...

TriedTooHard · July 01, 2019, 07:06:16 AM

Julian R, I really feel for you. You're not alone on this forum. Maybe the T can lead to some sort of prescription that will dull her outbursts? That may give you some space to decide what to do for yourself, and how to get some long term relief.

I'm the one who suggested that uPDs want a solution. At work, there are 1 or 2 women who are quite like your uPDw. I have no choice but to deal with them and they probably consider me a "girlfriend." Your post has opened up my eyes to how it must be for the people that they live with. It is different for those of us who don't have to live with them. Its been almost 30 years since I've lived with uNPD mother, who is also spoke of her work environment in the same way as your uPDw. Time has dimmed my memory of the hell she made of our household.

You have every right to think of yourself and what's best for you, short and long term.

SonofThunder · July 01, 2019, 10:33:17 AM

Julian,

You will, through trial and error, probably figure out a way of communication that works with your wife. Each situation is different and a lot of factors involved. Sometimes like a neutral friend and other times, enforcing boundaries on your communication/yourself.

You wrote "how they could be put into place and enforced. Personally I would like not to talk about work in the home, and to limit the amount of time "issues" are talked about, and when. But I can't see my UDPw agreeing to this, nor how to enforce it.".

A proper boundary is one you design for your own protection and on yourself, and one that someone else cannot thwart. It may have different levels of enforcement of it on yourself. Since the boundary is not on your PDw, there is no "enforcing it" on her. You must only enforce it regarding yourself.

You actually stated the boundary in your writing.

Julian Boundary: "... I would like not to talk about work in the home, and to limit the amount of time "issues" are talked about, and (with regard to me) when....". *You dont tell about your boundary on yourself to your PD. I find it works best keeping that kind of info to myself.

Step 1: when PDw starts talking about work at home, let her finish her comment and then say something like "I heard what you said and im sorry work has issues, but i dont care to talk about work at home, but am glad to talk about another subject". If PDw asks why, no-jad(E=explain), but simply state a repeated neutral comment question such as "not a subject i care i to discuss". (That is a legit answer).

Step 2: PDw starts to bait and get angry: state that you dont care to be around loud and disrespectful conditions so you are going to go (wherever you feel is a good place to go find peace and quiet).

As to "issues" the same boundaries apply except you may decide for yourself that a particular day/time is best for you for certain type discussions because you are a: not tired b: not hungry: c: caffeinated ;-). d: others

*You dont need your uPDw to do/not do anything to enforce those on yourself.

SoT

treesgrowslowly · July 01, 2019, 02:29:29 PM

Hi again Julian,

I am thinking a couple things after reading your most recent post. Before those, I'd like to commend you for your patience and concern for yourself and your marriage. You're in a tough situation for sure.

The first thought I have is that I agree with you that 6 therapy sessions are unlikely to be enough. When a client has anxiety, it takes time to trust a therapist and before we trust our T, we are unlikely to be receptive to their actual assesssment, the deeper issue. In 6 sessions many people won't get past talking about the scenario (usually interpersonal) that they believe is the problem.

The actual problem sounds like it is her distress tolerance, her boundaries, frustrations, etc and most of us are quite defensive if we are told during the first few sessions of therapy... that the problem lies within us. We want to believe that the problem will be solved by other people behaving better. It takes time for a good therapist to get a client to see that how they feel is understandable, valid and problematic.

When you described that you validating her venting just led to more venting, I recognize this and can relate. This sounds like someone who believes that they will be soothed if they just rant enough. Sometimes this is a result of being or feeling silenced by caregivers early in life.

Our psyche wants relief from distress and venting can become a sort of addictive behaviour I think. Meaning we use it because we think it helps is feel better. Its not wrong to vent, it can lead to realizing we are doing it because we are struggling with projection. We don't want to look inside, we want to insist the cure for our anxiety is in venting. This seems to be a common belief these days. Gossip is rampant. It's easy to find people who want or like to hear gossip.

Dr. Gabor Mate writes about how we can find ourselves using coping mechanisms that we developped to try to deal with life but are causing us more problems or eroding our relationships. He has several videos online that discuss his view, that many things we do can be understood as a sort of addiction or attempt to solve a problem that we actually don't know how to solve. Therapists can teach us how to do new things. You can't compel anyone to be ready to change but you can communicate that you are going to keep getting help for yourself so that you can take care of yourself in this marriage.

Julian R · July 04, 2019, 11:07:46 AM

Thank you everyone again.

treesgrowslowly - yes I think "distress intolerance" is a big issue. Not sure if this is what you mean - but i was actually present at one of the exchanges with her manager - her perception was that he was very upset and aggressive. My perception was that he was at first fairly patient and towards the end getting mildly frustrated because she totally clammed up and didn't answer when he requested what was wrong or how he could help. Maybe I minimize - but she certainly maximises off the scale! I do wonder though if there is a bit of PTSD in play as she told me later that other "images/bad memories" were being superposed on what she was going through during this exchange with her manager. Not sure she will tell the T about this. i hope she does; it seems significant. She was abused as a child. She doesn't think it affects her - but I can see that it has shaped her in various ways.

And yes the only reason I can see for her going on and on is some kind of attempt at self soothing, although I am not convinced it works very well and sometimes she just ends up convincing herself that things are even worse and getting into a self perpetuating state. I have tried suggesting that by doing this she is only making herself more miserable, but not only that, it is also making me more miserable. But she doesn't seem to care about me ...

The worst of the latest bout seems to be over but not entirely finished.

treesgrowslowly · July 05, 2019, 06:57:15 AM

Julian you show a lot of patience and understanding and compassion for your wife. Your posts help me to see things better too. I think we help each other through this fog.

To be honest, dealing with the effects of being abused is harder than anything else I've ever done. I have read A LOT about all manner of topics related to it over the years, in a quest to live fully Out of the FOG. Pete Walker's book stands out as one of the best. He has been through PTSD himself which makes it more hopeful to read because it shows that recovery from it is possible. He talks about the inner critic and what to do with our inner critic. It may give you some further validation and ideas for your situation. I just found it to be a really helpful read.