Here I am

[Jsinjin]

I'm JSJ:

I've been part of this forum for years.   Last year I took a break because I could see feedback loops that weren't working for me.  -that's just me and not a recommendation that anyone take a break from the forum- I live with a very tough to handle and severe spectrum undiagnosed (professionally) but highly intelligent and highly productive OCPD spouse.   I'm male and my spouse is female.   I have been married over 25 years with three kids all in or approaching college.   I have an incredibly blessed career with both fulfillment and creativity as the primary work.   I also have an incredibly blessed family of siblings and parents.   

So that's where I'm coming from in my life.

I've seen that there are fewer people on here coping with OCPD than some of the other PD behaviors but those of us who do deal with them seem to connect and nod our collective heads about how strange, unique and angry the behaviors are with this group.   They don't behave like a bipolar or a narcissist or some of the other PD's.   My spouse seems to genuinely create an entire universe of black and white rules that the whole world should obey and this becomes her only focus and it is deeper in terms of fear and anger than a religious fanatic or marine soldier with specific orders.   She literally can not handle it if the garbage can placed out to the curb is not within the inches of tolerance suggested by the city website for the trash to the point that she will have an angry breakdown of violent screaming if I or one of the kids haphazardly places the trash can too close to the curb.   If you've ever had dealings with an inspector for a home construction project or an auditor who noticed something that didn't matter (the smoke detector was a centimeter too far from the doorway or the typing on a form was touching the line instead of above it) you understand.   This isn't the type of thing that is a quirk like a spouse prefers to have his or her own towel or folds their socks a certain way, it's a life or death situation fear of anything being done wrong and a go to the mat battle if anyone doesn't see things her way both from a expectation and her fear that someone doesn't believe the way that she does.   

I've lived in a home where all things must not be wasted and the fear is that any specific piece of paper, advertisement, junk mail, newspaper, magazine, kids art project, outgrown clothing, packaging or even gifts we (not her but me and the kids) receive from others is of incredible value or potential loss if thrown away.   My son can't discard old participation trophies, I can't give away clothing, we have every single financial document, paper, even bankers boxes filled with every single piece of mail we have ever received for 25 plus years.   These fill sheds and attics.  I own a massive home with a massive three car garage,have two sheds, a trailer and then a second house and a rental space and they are all filled with trash that can not be thrown away.   I am certain she has a perfect photographic memory because if anything even my old clothes are snuck out to goodwill she notices in seconds and leaps on it.

She approaches all of us in the home with interrogations and suspicion.   Innocent moving a salt shaker can last with a half hour of interrogation.   Purchasing a roll of tape from the dollar store can result in a half day doscussin and fight over the brand, choice of tape, size, why it was needed, why it wasn't discussed, how the choice was made and was it really a good value.   Even those things of my job and career are under deep scrutiny such as corporate sending me a new computer at end of life replacement time and me returning the old one has her upset and concerned about what they will do with the old one (probably destroy it for legal reasons).   

You can see my old posts for a timeline f
And awakening of my self actualization to realized none of this is normal.

There is no intimacy because of many fear related reasons in her world. 

I was faced with two choices:

Leave and simply deal with the fallout and I considered that for a long time.   I am deeply devout as a Catholic and that one weighed on me.   

Or develop ways to make myself matter in my own sphere.   First, I began to learn that I could do things and she could get upset but at the end of the day the violent anger was her only reaction.  I made it very clear that she could get angry but I would not tolerate her damaging things to her attention to her anger and I would not tolerate her throwing things or harming me or the kids.  This was important because if Tupperware was misplaced in the wrong cabinets or spices were out away out of order or food was wasted and people try to ignore her anger it escalated and it is a quick escalation.  If someone doesn't respond to her finding a spoon in the fork compartment of the silverware drawer or she finds a piece of mail she considers important in the trash she doesn't allow any time or activity to be wasted to immediately demand accountability and if no one responds she will thrown the whole thing of silverware from the drawer on the floor or begin violently trashing other things because she is trying to aggressively passively prove a point that it is important.   

So I made it clear that I would not speak, I would not engage and I would leave if she behaved that way.   I will tolerate her being upset because I don't think her brain will let her release this control but I will not tolerate physical violence.   And I mean none.   I dictated to her that I will leave any time she becomes physical in her anger and that includes bashing things around in cabinets,throwing things,slamming doors, driving erratically and in anger or striking us in any way.   I would never hurt her or defend myself because I am not that kind of man but I will quietly without discussion leave and not come back for a period that I define.

Next I am fortunate but I own a second home less that 5 miles from our primary home.   It's refurbished and quite nice.   It is mine.  I bought it with cashe originally for her mother to live in as she passed away from her own OCPD fears and anxiety but the poor woman passed away In a nursing home losing weight and muscle structure from fear of going outside.   So I redid the cottage and built it with no input from her.   It's small but has two bedrooms, a redone bath, tv, internet and services and a new kitchen.   It is mine.   That says a lot.  I have been able to hang art and photos on the walls, I use it as my office because I work remote and I can have family stay there when the come into town because the state of my home embarrasses me a great deal.   I had to take that stand which angered her a great deal but it saved my life emotionally.   I have a place to read, to have joy, to clean, tocare for, to change and to sit quietly and work without irrational pain.  This has been a huge thing for me.  It enabled me to create for the better.   I could choose where I shelved books, how I set up my desk, a rug that I liked, art for my walls, curtains, desk chair, sitting chairs, dishes, even put knobs on cabinets.   In our own home which we built 20 years ago and is fully paid off there are concrete floors because she can not choose wood or other flooring, there is not a single painting, photo, art or anything else on any wall because of fear it will look wrong, there is not a single knob or pull on any of the custom cabinets built everywhere in the kitchen bathrooms laundry and other spaces; just holes drilled and left with the fear that it will be wrong.   I did not do this external home in spit of her, I did it because since I got married I have never been allowed to even choose where I put my underwear in drawers; "there is a right way and if it is not known what the right way is you don't do anything".   We have never put up a blind or window treatment, we have not ever allowed me to buy a chair for my office besides a folding one because there just has not been an understanding of the right one so better to not take that chance.   I am a senior executive at a technology firm and I sit on a folding chair because my wife is afraid and potentially violently angry if I spend money on one that either doesn't go with the decor in the house or is overpriced.

I have also taken to a counselor online every two weeks.  And we don't focus the sessions on complaints; we focus on how I am maintaining boundaries.   

I know that I still have things to watch for.   If she ever decides to take back or take over the cottage then I will have to rethink what I do.  The same thing goes for the violent outbursts.  If she goes back to that behavior I will have to clearly rethink and execute a plan to take legal action in the form of a divorce.   I have made plans that this is a contingency and have a sort of "bug out" set of things including cash, my clothes at the cottage, my vehicle and all of my work things where I can leave and sort out my options if things go south.

I know it's tough to understand and very tough for me to live with but I have come so very far in the last 12-16 months from self harm ideation and despair to life that really has purpose and a feeling of control.

I want to thank Beautiful crazy for encouraging me and alm.ofnthe rest of you.  This is what I was able to do to make positive changes.  It took a lot.of work and it's still not ideal but I have made the most of it.

Jsj

[square]

Good to hear from you.

Well done.

[SonofThunder]

Good to hear from you.

Well done.

Glad to have you walking the Out of the FOG trails with us again.  See you around the boards.

SoT

[notrightinthehead]

Well done.

[Jsinjin]

Thanks all.   It's actually since late 2017 that I realized something was deeply wrong.   I didn't find Out of the FOG until mid 2018.   

I'm a classically trained scientist and have a career in data science and applied math/statistics.  I think a lot in correlations and what I suspect may happen in certain unlucky situations is that a person who loves to please and dislikes confrontation winds up in a relationship with a PD who loves control.  While this is probably rare in populations, across the billions on the planet we have enough that this case shows up like a rare disease in a large enough population to be detected.   Then the afflicted eventually find their way here and chat about common experiences and we realize "this isn't normal"

Under a more normal circumstance I suppose it would have been a rational divorce with or without screaming involved by the OCPD party.

I won't deny the unknown harm it's done to.ky kids but they're all at or ehaded off to their lives and have had the chance to get help from counselors.   Because of luck, fortune and blessings in the material world I am able to afford counseling, places to escape to and have a supportive external family and group of buds to hang with.   

I urge anyone to assess their general situation and above all else to protect their own physical and emotional health with combinations of boundaries, specifics and the toolkits in Out of the FOG.

For those with OCPD spouses, I feel for and empathize with you.   It's a special kind of hell to deal with the hoarding, bizarre rules, anger, breakdowns, lack of intimacy and fixations on external things compounded by all that there is online.   You have my thoughts and prayers.

I am not completely well.   There is no magical reversal of 25 years of emotional eggshells and the impact it has done.   But I know what to watch for and how to stop wallowing in self pity and "why" questions.

[square]

Jsinjin, was there a particular event that pushed you to take back your power to the degree you did?

[Jsinjin]

Describing it would get flagged as trigger.  It involved hospitalization and self harm ideation.

[square]

I'm sorry to hear it, jsinjin. I hope everyone is okay.

[Poison Ivy]

Thank you for coming back and sharing the positive developments. Your thoughtfulness and resilience are inspiring.

[hhaw]

I'm glad to read you're holding your own, Jisinjin.

I'm glad you're enforcing boundaries around safety and self care.

Thanks for updating the board.  I was wondering how you've been.

[SeaBreeze]

Thanks for the update! I'm sorry you're still in the thick of it, but encouraged by your strength as you enforce boundaries and use "the tools"!

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I'm here sporadically, but I remember you JSJ.  Your turnaround was quite incredible.  Very inspiring for a recovering enabler/ people-pleaser like me!  You have much hope to give us.

BTW, I grew up with a uOCPD parent.  Wet hoarder.  It's pretty horrifying!  It affects me to this day to have lived those years like that.

Free

[1footouttadefog]

So glad to read of your finally getting your peaceful home finished.

I rember wuen years ago I took over a basement bedroom and  bath and set it up as a studio apt would be.  I had a full kitchen outsode the room in the rest of the basement.  I could go and sit and actually read or rest and even take a nap. 

Over time it was so healthy for me to habe my own space seoarate from the "rules" of craziness.

I had set boundaries against tye kids'rooms bit it took my way longer to make my own space. 

A year and a half ago I had to up ejd our living arrangement and put my spouse in my space as his so the kids and I could love more separately.  There uas been dosorger in my living soace ever since and the rest of the basement as well. 

I am just now making progress towards getting things back into order as life asked alot of my time with other demands on it. 

Interestingly my spouse has dropped almost all of the rules now that hs lives in hos own apartment down stairs.  He comes up for lunch and supper and I take him into town a couple times a week or more. 

It just goes to show how much of it was about controlling us.  The silverwear that had to be just so, he now opens the drawer and drops it in unsorted.  So many things that were such big deals, black and white,  right or wrong , all or nothing are not important now. 

The microwave that has to be spotless, does not get cleaned.

I think about your vaccuum cleaner bags that might have a leggo in them often. 

I thiught about tue OCPD folks thebother day when I was at my moms and the garbage truck came by and tue can fell into the truck wuen lifted upsode down to empty it.  I asked the fellow wuat we couod do to keep that from hapoening again.  He thiught it was die to errrosion of soil and it sitting at an angle.  He was calm akd not blaming bit had my H been there he would have been blam in ng me amd telling the guy how sorry ue was that i did not follow the rules etc etc.  He would habe beej amgry at me because he felt a loss of N supply.  He gets lots of narc supply imagining everyone notices how well he follows the rules. 

[Jsinjin]

I think about your vaccuum cleaner bags that might have a leggo in them often. 

I thiught about tue OCPD folks thebother day when I was at my moms and the garbage truck came by and tue can fell into the truck wuen lifted upsode down to empty it.  I asked the fellow wuat we couod do to keep that from hapoening again.  He thiught it was die to errrosion of soil and it sitting at an angle.  He was calm akd not blaming bit had my H been there he would have been blam in ng me amd telling the guy how sorry ue was that i did not follow the rules etc etc.  He would habe beej amgry at me because he felt a loss of N supply.  He gets lots of narc supply imagining everyone notices how well he follows the rules.

I completely get it.   I've wanted to start a sub forum on ocpd.   It's amazing the number of super similar traits I've described that people reach out to me regarding an OCPD significant other.   

One is always the trash.   Something about the way that garbage gets put out to the curb is a uniform consistent trigger and rule-oriented concern.  At one point my spouse was so concerned she couldn't go to work on Tuesdays until after the trash and recycling came for fear I would put the cans at the curb wrong or try to sneak something in them.  And when she left town for events or work she would call and discuss how I needed to put the trash and recycling out correctly and to please promise I would only throw away just the bare things that are normal trask and not throw anything else away.   That issue is a very bizarre one but I've had four or five people reach out to me with undiagnosed OCPD significant others and have described the exact same behavior.   It's not the hoarding, it's the very strange and specific rules.   Her concern is the exact nature of the very detailed rules on the distance from the curb, the weight of the can, the fact that nothing is above the top of the can, the fact that the bags in the can are uniform in size and roughly equal in weight.   She has never worked in the industry at all but somehow offending the garbage collection team is a deep concern.

Another is that blasted silverware drawer.   They seem to have an incredible concern with the silverware.   My spouse has anger issues with even a single small spoon being in with the larger spoons.   Mistakes aren't simply careless errors, she truly feels it's people deliberately ignoring the system.  Same thing with spatulas and things for cooking in that drawer.  How they are put away is super critical compared to just leaving them out on the counter.

Then for mine, how the dishwasher and clothes washer are loaded is enought to send her into orbit.   Even someone else's clothes still can't have the clothes washer loaded wrong.  The right way is sort of elusive but she understands how she thinks it should be done and that's the only way.

There are more.   Almost everything I notice about regular OCPD traits is shared by the broadee community.  It's strange that something so specific like trash can to street distance would become a trait but it comes out for this population. 

We do.still have all the vacuum bags piling up on the garage shelf.   Years worth.  Perhaps they will become an archaeology benefit someday in the future.   

While I was finding my ground and myself, I told her honestly that if she passed away before me which is not what I want at all, I wouldn't even think twice about simply throwing away nearly everything.   All the kids old clothes donated, all the toys besides the Thomas tank engine and Legos for future grandchildren gone except things the kids do want for sentimental reasons, I would drop all receipts and documents besides titles and loan payoff documents to 7 years only and the rest just throw away, every single pile of newspapers and magazines would be recycled instantly and all of the old components, paint cans, unused Parts and all the boxes that came with appliances over the years would simply be gone.  She actually broke down and cried when I said that.  I felt bad.  But to be honest it's true.   Sentimental value of grandmas quilt or a state championship medal with a photo of the award and coach is beautiful, keeping every pair of socks shoes, clothes from baby to college isn't sentimental it's hoarding. I felt bad because I made her cry but I also realize it's the truth.

[escapingman]

BW, the constant cleaning and the constant hovering...... uNPDxw definately had a fair bit of OCDP as well. As you wrote, she would be hovering the same floors several times a day, I am still hearing the noise of the hover just thinking of it. I was not allowed to do the hovering or any cleaning as I was deemed useless at it, I wasn't complaining about not cleaning but it was certainly weird to be told to not clean. After our divorce she got access to the house to collect some of her items, do I need to tell you that she spent a fait bit of time cleaning the house, the house she isn't living in and the house has been sold (not completed yet).

Question to you about OCDP, I am not sure if this is anything to do with OCDP or anything else but..... XW has a photographic memory, she made accurate lists of all items in the house that she has not lived in for almost a year. She missed out a few, but she even remembered down to the cutlery what was in each drawer. It kind of freaked me out that she firstly spend so much time on this, but also that she actually remembered.

Last thing, it is a nightmare clearing out a house with every single piece of instruction leaflet from every item ever bought.

I know you are still living in this, but boy do I love being able to make a mark on the carpet without getting a reaction as that the world ended.

[Jsinjin]

XW has a photographic memory, she made accurate lists of all items in the house that she has not lived in for almost a year. She missed out a few, but she even remembered down to the cutlery what was in each drawer. It kind of freaked me out that she firstly spend so much time on this, but also that she actually remembered.

Last thing, it is a nightmare clearing out a house with every single piece of instruction leaflet from every item ever bought.

Hi team, I'm at peace with everything now.  Stopped caring.   I was in a good place financially and fixed up a cottage in the old part of the downtown where we live and it's mine down to the washer and dryer and dishwasher.   Then I bought another place as a cabin in the mountains in a nearby state with a good view so I can get away from her as needed.   She doesn't leave or go anywhere because her volunteer work takes ALL of her time. 

Yes the photographic memory is unreal.   Mine knows through all of the clutter and hoarding and messes where all of the papers, receipts, newspapers (we get three print editions daily (Local, wall street journal and NY Times) and none have been allowed to be thrown out for many years (she is always going to save some article).   I often think it's not just photographic memory but a sixth sense.   One time I bought myself a dollar store squirt bottle of cleaner to put under my sink (we have a fairly big master bathroom and I have my own sink and cabinets) and she found it that day angrily.  She doesn't like to story any cleaning things in any rooms but the utility room even thought the kids and I really want some cleaner products in our bathroom.   She won't have it and is completely inflexible on the subject.   She walked in that afternoon and found it.  I suspect she smelled the lemon scent and knew it wasn't the normal stuffm but I'm not sure.

So my sanity and mental health got better when I just let the fights and problems go.   Again I was fortunate to have a second home a 10 min bike ride or 2 min drive away that I was able to control. It's strange, she can handle memtally and emotionally that I put trash and recycling out there, or I installed plants and a sprinkler system there.   She can't even handle watering things at our home for fear they might be over or under watered so they all just die in the summer heat. 

The reason I started this tread is because I was in a very bad emotional and psychological place trying to figure out why she behaved this way.   Once I realized she just is and she has her own boundaries up; she only controls the silverware drawer in our home, not the others for example, I became better.   I realized what a loop I was in through my years on this forum and then I left and figured out that I had to let go of the metaphorical rope.   I had to stop worrying about the why.  And I realized that her bizarre rationalization only exists on an island of her and her control.  I stopped voicing my opinions anout things around her as though I'm at dinner with family and don't want to talk about politics because it will turn ugly.  I stopped taking the trash and recycling out at home.  I confined my things to my closer and my storage areas such as office desk or bookshelf and no where else.   I stopped emptying the dishwasher silverware just leaving it for her.  I keep my second home and cabin clean because I like them that way.   I stood up for my own choices on things like flights I have to take or want to take, hotels I pick, my vehicles, my hobbies and my exercise and health.   And to be honest there have been minimal fights about those things.   Choosing a place to park can still take 10 minutes in an open parking lot if I'm driving but it doesn't result in her leaving the line for.the movie, saying nothing to me and going back to the car to move it to a "better'" place in the lot.  This is something she has done.  I picked a spot and said "I don't care what you think, this is a spot and it doesn't matter" and she left the line, moved the car and came back.  That's always been her absolute control.   If she doesn't like somehting she will stop.   We have missed flights, key meetings, events and other things like kids track meets etc if she feels she is being hurried or pressured.   She will stop, halt and refuse to go on and the power she has for this is amazing.  She knows that when you are at some state fair event or giant football game, her halting will stop everyone else because we really can't just leave her.   If it takes her 15 min to read all the signs about what to carry in she is fine but the group will not go forward with her unless she finishes all of that stuff.   The power is that if we leave her we have the tickets or perhaps she has them and the ultimate control is that I was the jerk who left his wife behind.  I am too nice for that.   

But I e learned to let her choose the dumb parking space or to read all the TSA rules at the airport because you can't stop those activities.    Once I realized that she was immobile on those topics I started expecting it.

[square]

Jsinjin, I can relate to wanting to understand "why." And people who tell me I shouldn't work to understand why can fight me. I want to know the why of everything, it's how I'm built, too bad.

For me the key wasn't stopping asking why butvsimply giving up all hope for change. An implied part of trying to figure this crazy stuff out is the idea of improving it somehow. Nope.

You've accepted your wife is the way she is. You've also accepted that she will ATTEMPT to control you. You can't stop the attempts (short of leaving) but you can accept she will try and make your own decisions anyway.

Good.

And some of those decisions involve letting her do her thing. Fine! You decide what you're willing to roll along with and what you're not willing to roll along with.

Personally, I'm still curious. I want to know what is going on. But it's just curiosity. I'm not going to fix this. It is what it is. I get to decide how I react and if I'm going to stick around. The rest is just interesting to me.

Was this community of help to you at all? Did you feel you needed something you did not get here?

[Jsinjin]

Was this community of help to you at all? Did you feel you needed something you did not get here?

Oh no .it was a tremendous help to me.  I owe my.life to this community.   But I started spending all of my time wondering why things happened instead of just accepting and doing things for me.  And I was trapped in a feedback loop of my own making.   So I took a year or so off and worked on myself.   I think it worked.

[BeautifulCrazy]

You definitely sound like you are in a healthier, more functional place, Jsinjin. I am very proud of you!!
Your posts sound so confident and certain compared to before!! 
I also notice that you are talking more about yourself and your own choices instead of dwelling on your wife's reactions, behaviors and feelings.
I like the decisiveness coming across in the actions you have taken, and even the language you are using in your recent posts. I'm hoping you will share more about the processes and and resources that have brought you to where you are now.

[notrightinthehead]

I feel truly happy for you and the changes you have implemented. You seem to practice better self care and have found a refuge from your stressful marriage. What made you see that the door was always open for you?  And then eventually take it?