When did you know that they had a pd?

[Dodo]

I never even thought of a pd, but when I went to see a therapist because I was having problems with my partner and didn't understand his behaviour and the way he reacted to things, the therapist said that his problems may be more that just phobias and anxiety and that it could be because of a personality disorder.  When I started to look into personality disorders it all made sense.  It has been four years that we have been together and although I am still here it has been extraordinary times with covid, when things are back to normal (god willing) I'm not sure our relationship will survive as we are so incompatible in so many ways outside the home.

[Lauren17]

My H is undiagnosed, like others have said, he's fine! Why would he seek therapy?!
Here's how I found out. At 15+ years into our marriage, 2 kids, H picked a fight that ended up with us making one visit to a marriage counselor. He declined to participate, but the T recommend a book. That book described stonewalling and basically said, don't do that, it's often a sign of bigger problems. Then didn't discuss it any more. The description was so exactly H's behavior that I started internet and library research based on that one term. And eventually tumbled to PDs.
That was 5 years ago and I'm just now getting to a point where I'm investigating my divorce options.
I clearly remember the day that I made the surprising realization  that H is a very angry person. It's embarrassing to say how many years I lived with him, not knowing that anger was underneath the charming exterior. He is very covert. Very manipulative. And he uses "humor" to invalidate, belittle, and undermine. I often get the silent treatment like Spark describes, or he acts very wounded. But, he only very rarely shows anger in the classic way.
Looking back, I see so many red flags. But I excused them away as a lack of understanding on his part, based on a lack of communication on my part. 

Today I learned that terrible drivers must be more likely to marry a PD. I've been told that too. Of course, it's been presented as on-going funny-because-its-true joke. 

[Dodo]

Lauren17
the term you used stonewalling I looked it up and realized my updp stonewalls about any kind of plans.  It drives me nuts but I now know that I just have to make my own plans. I went to a therapist and when she told me he was possibly suffering from a PD it all started to make sense, I did talk him into going once on his own to see her and the only thing he came back with was that I was possibly a novel personally.  The therapist told me not to say anything about this to him( a possible PD)  and I never have because this would just evolve into a major fight and circular argument, we use to have these kind of augments constantly, now I don't bother. My partner also has a charming exterior and behaves in the same manner as to use humour to invalidate and belittle.  He also thinks he doesn't need a therapist (oh lord if anyone ever did it's him) because she is stupid, doesn't know what she's talking about and on and on, he also said he only to see her to satisfy me.

[Poison Ivy]

I knew for a long time that my then husband had "something," but I didn't suspect a personality disorder until several years into our marriage. My therapist (now retired), to whom I talked frequently about my husband but who never met him, diagnosed him from a distance one day. I still remember her rolling her chair over to her bookshelf, pulling a book down, opening it, and reading a description of either avoidant or dependent personality disorder (sorry, I can't recall which). It was an a-ha moment for me. She was spot on.

[D.]

For me the awareness was gradual.  I think it happened when I started doing work on my own healing from the divorce and heard the term from my therapist.  Ironically father to my ex was uNPD so I heard it from my uNPDexh in reference to his father...

[Lauren17]

Lauren17
the term you used stonewalling I looked it up and realized my updp stonewalls about any kind of plans.  It drives me nuts but I now know that I just have to make my own plans. I went to a therapist and when she told me he was possibly suffering from a PD it all started to make sense, I did talk him into going once on his own to see her and the only thing he came back with was that I was possibly a novel personally.  The therapist told me not to say anything about this to him( a possible PD)  and I never have because this would just evolve into a major fight and circular argument, we use to have these kind of augments constantly, now I don't bother. My partner also has a charming exterior and behaves in the same manner as to use humour to invalidate and belittle.  He also thinks he doesn't need a therapist (oh lord if anyone ever did it's him) because she is stupid, doesn't know what she's talking about and on and on, he also said he only to see her to satisfy me.

This also sounds so familiar!
Stonewalling is H's go to response for big things like selling the house to small things like how to spend a Saturday afternoon to everything in between.
Like you, I've finally learned I can't count on him and I need to make my own decisions.
It has greatly reduced the number of arguments, calmed my frustration, and clearly illustrated this isn't a partnership at all.

[Stillirise]

This all sounds so very familiar.  I really ended up down this path, like many others, after following up on something our therapist said.  We saw the same therapist both individually, and as a couple.  She made several references to the 4 horsemen, generally directed at stbx, in our conflicts: criticism, stonewalling, contempt, and defensiveness.  He also has an alcohol problem. 

Since I truly didn't think anyone could ever see the "real" underlying issues, I started with my substance abuse concerns in the individual sessions with the therapist.  That is when she called him a "King Baby." That's an AA term that basically encompasses narcissistic traits.  It was the first time I'd ever heard that term.

At one point, he actually stopped drinking, and the 4 horsemen, and king baby behaviors seemed even worse. That's when I realized he was using alcohol to self-medicate his underlying mental health issues.  I ended up here around that time.

Since then, I've reviewed the red flags, of which there were many. A few that stand out...his own sister calling him a N, after he was riding his 4 horsemen flat out, at a family gathering years ago. He has multiple PD individuals in his extended FOO, including his grandmother, who was diagnosed BPD.  They have had epic battles amongst themselves, 3 generations deep, in the 20 years I was around.   For the better part of that time, I saw him as the victim of the elders' in-fighting.  I now see how he thrived on it, and at times instigated it.  Even if he was a "victim" of their behaviors, I now see I am not obligated to accept the results of PD that arose in him.

[Associate of Daniel]

I've known my uNPD exH as 3 distinct people.

First, the confident, compassionate, funny man who seemed to be striving to live his life as the christian he claimed to be. This lasted maybe 6 months.

2nd, for 12 years as a sullen, never around, unreliable, silent treatmenting husband.

3rd, as the manipulative, projecting, history rewriting, gaslighting, non sensical bully in the 8+ years since he left.

Of course with hindsight, I now see the pd traits and red flags throughout those stages.

He told me not long after he left that he'd been diagnosed with depression and anxiety.

When I researched those illnesses in the hope that I could find a way of helping him, I realised that, while I could see that the diagnosis was likely correct, there was so much more to his behaviour that wasn't explained by depression and anxiety.

So I started researching the behaviours, as opposed to labels.

That's when the world of pds was opened up to me.

So, not until after my marriage was over, about 8 years ago, did I discover that my ex H probably has NPD with perhaps a touch of PPD.

He's never told me of such a diagnosis, but he has accused me of having NPD, which makes me wonder if he has been diagnosed with it.  I very much doubt it though.

Of course I have no qualifications to diagnose anyone with anything.  But my extensive research and experience as a victim of abuse from my uNPD exH and his uNPD wife, I think qualifies me to give a pretty good assumption.  And more than anything, it has helped me enormously to be able to privately label them as such.  It's helped me to detach from the abuse, labelling each of their behaviours (projection, gaslighting, manipulation etc) and then to know how to respond accordingly.

The labels of NPD etc, although undiagnosed,  have brought me more peace and healing and eabled me to move on with my life.

Abd this site, has played a huge role in the process.  It's the place I've received the most help.

AOD

[Fae Greenwood]

I realized he had a PD soon after our 26th anniversary. We had a lot of problems because of his nutty behaviors in the first few years, went to counseling, and after 1+ years of being asked but refusing to repeat "How I treat my wife affects how she feels towards me," when he finally agreed to say it 3 times, his behavior improved immediately. It was stunning. He genuinely believed that I was 100% responsible for his happiness and health and was punished for everything that went wrong in his life.  He kept himself under control for the next 10 years. It wasn't all perfect but it was manageable. Then got a big promotion at work. He started to believe that he was wonderful, that he was superior, that he had a chance at a top job (that person often met with top politicians like the Secretary of Commerce and our state governor and sometimes joined a call with the President so yeah, exciting for a NPD). All this fed his NPD. Then he propositioned a woman at work just before our 19th anniversary. There was no official response but he told me all about it because he "wanted me to know so I could  stop him if it happened again" and he "wanted help to take better advantage of the next opportunity." Yes, he wanted to set me up being at fault for his cheating AND he wanted me to help him learn to cheat on me. We had 4 minor kids at that point and I'd been unemployed for 14 years. I consulted an attorney and found out what I could about the process and what I could expect financially. Between the child/spousal support and starting my not-long career all over again plus costs of living, I decided instead to do my best to stay. I did sit my husband down and tell him just how much a divorce would cost him. He ran the numbers in his head and I saw the new idea click in his eyes that I was worth real money. He'd been angry that a coworker's wife had inherited $1M+ and had "punished" me for not being an heiress. Suddenly I was worth "real" money and he had a valuable wife. It was nuts but whatever at least he was cooperative. He was willing to follow my explicit clear demands for easily-assessed behaviors. Home by 6 pm every night, eating dinner with the family, kisses at prescribed times during the day, etc. And for the next 4 years, I had the marriage I'd always wanted. I had a man who was physically affectionate without groping me, who supported me in parenting, who participated in our marriage and family. Again, it wasn't perfect as he still occasionally had rages but he'd learned that crossing the line would cost him more than he wanted to pay.

But it didn't last. That negative behaviors started up again and the positive behaviors eroded away. Just after our 26th anniversary (he really muffed our 25th anniversary to I'm sure no one's surprise), we were together 3000 miles away and he made a silly mistake not at all my fault, found me and told me he hoped I'd get sick or injure myself just before he left to spend the day with customers. It was deeply shocking. I had a limited cell phone and no car. I had been practicing confronting him at these times and did so and got the shrug. He got back very late that night and told me he didn't want to talk about it as "it was in the past" and "it never happened." But it had. I was a wreck dealing with that and so many other things he'd dished out that I again became depressed and ended up back at the doctor and back on the Prozac. A few weeks after starting the meds, I woke up one morning and realized that no one does these things to someone they love. His behavior was consistent with irritation and dislike, not love. Now I was 24 years unemployed with 2 minor kids, 2 adult kids with job problems in a Great Recession (2009) and saw no way out that wouldn't end up with me spending retirement pushing a shopping cart through the park. So I stayed but I was done. I spent time on the internet and found lots of information but then I ran across a checklist about NPD and my God it was him. The grandiosity, the gaslighting, the superiority, the rages, the ruined friendships, all was there except I'd been spared the affairs (yes I'm sure he's quite limited sexually plus he's too damn cheap to spend money on his pleasures). I spent time learning what I could and how I could manage it. I got the 2 younger kids through college and all 4 are now living on their own with good wages so that's an accomplishment. I discovered this site about 3 years ago and the toolbox has been super helpful.

Looking back at the early days, I think our counselor knew uNPDh was PD. I described my husband as "sucking all the joy out of me like a giant spider" and the counselor suddenly sat up straight and stared at me.  He also later assured me that I wasn't depressed but had a really bad marriage. I try not to second-guess my choices as that way lies madness. Yup, it took 26 years of marriage to realize he has a PD.

[ShyTurtle]

It was affecting me mentally and physically...I was depressed, had headaches, chronic heartburn, muscle tension, and had even start to twitch anytime I had to be in the same room as he was. I could no longer live that way.

I can so relate to this! Interestingly, my body seemed to sense that things were wrong right about the time when I moved in with him. My level of health took a nose-dive and I struggled with unexplained declining health for years! I leave and my body instantly goes into recovery mode. Go figure. The body knows!

[Janeite V]

For me, a huge barrier to understanding is that personality disorders and mental illnesses in general are often stereotyped into a very typical manifestation, and because most people, including pwPDs, don't actually act in a textbook way all the time (not all introverts read all the time, for example, not all extroverts are party animals) it can be very easy to dismiss your own intuitions about someone - or yourself! Add in the fact that they often act differently in public compared to private, and it's even more difficult.

My narcissist, for example, is a covert narcissist. Extremely shy and withdrawn, with visible low self esteem and depression. I didn't think someone like that could be a narcissist because I associated narcissism with the grandiose type. It wasn't until I came across Dr. Ramani that suddenly all the pieces came together.

But I knew long before that that something was wrong, despite others' opinions (which changed once I went GR and the narcissist turned on others instead of me, as I knew they would).

I don't recommend this, but I'd test my theories on the narcissist to make sure I wasn't imagining it. I'd admit a vulnerability that I didn't care that much about, and sure enough, the narcissist would try to use it against me. I'd stop walking on eggshells for a while, and sure enough the controlling behaviour and sulking would surface. I'd listen to their problems sympathetically and sure enough they were just using my sympathy as a bait and switch for yet another confrontation.

Because of these tests I knew that these were predictable behaviours I could set my clock to. That's all I really needed to know. Once I had been GR for a while (still before I knew about narcissism) I was amused to find that the narcissist had to really grope around in the dark to find things that would upset me, and predictably went for the most obvious and visible things, such as my weight.

I felt really powerful once that was confirmed, because I knew the narcissist had no special powers of insight or observation as they claimed.