Experiences in the IDD cycle and the drama triangle’s relationship.

[SonofThunder]

As some of you may know, i am purposefully stuck in the the discard phase which also incorporates moments of devalue.  The ability to remain in this phase of the cycle is refusing to be hoovered by devalue back into 'doing' which generates idealization, which eventually is not sufficient and devalue begins once again. 

Refusing to be hoovered required that I first learn and recognize the details of the IDD cycle process, and also learn how to creatively say 'no' in ways that minimize PD rage.  I first landed in discard about 2 years ago and I learned very quick to NOT try and match my uPDw's discard (which in hypocrisy and high-radar, triggers PD rage).  Rather, deploy a more successful attitude of indifference, which does not typically trigger that PD rage, but rather causes the PD's purposeful IDD tactics to miss the mark. 

Every once in a while, I have found that steady indifference causes my uPDw to build up resentment like a pressure cooker and today was one of those days.  My wife has a hand-full of girlfriends and 75% of them are imo having mid-life crisis and/or rebellion issues and making major changes to body parts and personal styles in order to try and find new joy in identity.  Because of this, my wife knows my opinions that her girlfriends group is wrought with current and past personal issues that drive these drastic alterations of hair-color, plastic surgery, tattoos, totally new clothing styles and totally new style auto's.  None of these imo are wrong, just totally different regarding these ladies and have been for many decades. 

6 months ago, another one my wifes old friends posted pictures of her new (first-time) bold/bright dyed hair and I asked my wife "what other things did she change?" (tattoos, vehicles, clothing), insinuating that yet another one of her friends is in a life crisis 😂. My uPDw looked at me strangely on my response and said angrily "why would you be interested in whether she colored her pubic hair??" 😡  I JADED and stated that she was way off base, and she walked off angrily.  One month later (5 months ago) my uPDw confronted me out of nowhere, inquiring whether I was internet chatting with this same lady. I laughed it off and walked away.  I suspect (in Discard), that this is a smokescreen-projection because my uPDw may be internet chatting with men. 

One week ago, i treated my wife to an expensive 1 night hotel stay in a resort in the southern USA on travel and during the night there, she confronted me out of the blue once again regarding her friend and whether we were chatting online.  I told her that I was angered and then brushed it off, but it really irritated me since this outing was an expensive gift.  My wife knew she had ruined my gift-evening and moved from victim (on the drama triangle) to perpetrator.  I have basically ignored my wife all week in passive aggressive punishment which she earned imo, and today... I got the full devaluation attempt and creative, manipulative switch from perpetrator, back to victim, because "our marriage is falling apart because of my lack of effort".  She attempts to move me to perpetrator in the dance around the drama triangle and also move from discard to devalue in the IDD cycle. 

This experience made me desire to share here regarding the relationship of the IDD to the drama triangle and how they are both co-utilized by PD people in order to keep the target rotating around the roles.  My response to todays charge that I am responsible for a terrible marriage relationship, was to deny any ownership of the accusations and tell her I was not making and changes and that marriage improvement was futile.   She broke down into angry crying and then stated "well i guess this is it!!" 😭.

Time will tell.  Either way, know that the IDD cycle and the drama triangle compliment each other and can 100% run at the same time. 

SoT

[notrightinthehead]

Yes, they can be enjoyable (sort of) these games we play.  And while you remain Out of the FOG you engage in the dance nevertheless. Sending you strength and clarity of mind to continue doing what you are doing as long as you want to.

[SonofThunder]

Yes, they can be enjoyable (sort of) these games we play.  And while you remain Out of the FOG you engage in the dance nevertheless. Sending you strength and clarity of mind to continue doing what you are doing as long as you want to.

Thank you Not Right. 

Regarding me, its about need not want.  I am self employed with many employees who will be affected by a personal divorce. In the 50/50 rule here at Out of the FOG, I am 50% responsible for being in a marriage with a PD and therefore i believe i must reach my two-fold protective plans/goals regarding company assets in order to shield my employees and their families from a divorce.

The first goal was financial, and based on the laws in my state in the USA, i have reached my financial goal part of the plan.  From prior experience assisting a friend through his divorce with a BPD wife, i am fully aware of the PD attempts in divorce to inflict as much hardship as possible, therefore at this time, i am trying to play the traits of my uPDwife against her, in order to work in my favor regarding any future attempts she may use to inflict hardship through false legal accusation.

I believe she is mostly NPD with a good dose of BPD and PPD mixed in.  I have growing records of her activity in each of those PD type categories and believe that i may be able to quickly resolve any attempts by her to legally smear me with lies in a divorce, by my producing email, video from home cam footage (shes already aware its own 24/7), texts and other truth that will assist in a PD divorce moving forward a bit smoother. 

Dealing with the IDD cycle and drama triangle motives is very-very tiring, but also interesting in the way the two dance together.  Time will tell, but with fear of abandonment being the underlying largest mechanism with my uPDw, its definitely the "i hate you dont leave me" game that others are experiencing. 

But, my wife can be careless in her NPD traits, because she craves attention and shes a very attractive.  She gets plenty of male attention both online and in person and with me in 'indifference' her need to get the attention elsewhere is growing and shes hiding it from me less all the time.  If this latest round of her hearing 'no' from me regarding attempts at marital improvement through more 'doing' by me plays its course, she just may agree to end this rodeo mutually. 

But as i stated, even mutual agreements can go awry when a BPD and a money-hungry lawyer get together.  I will be ready.  Thanks again for the well wishes.

SoT

[square]

SoT, sorry to hear you're having a particularly hard time lately. Wishing you strength and fortitude. 

If your wife agrees to something (such as divorce) one day, will she still be in agreement the next day?

I'm wondering if for her to hold to a consistent agreement on what she may fear most (abandonment) she would have to already have lined up the next hope of a life of perfect happiness - another man.

[SonofThunder]

SoT, sorry to hear you're having a particularly hard time lately. Wishing you strength and fortitude. 

If your wife agrees to something (such as divorce) one day, will she still be in agreement the next day?

I'm wondering if for her to hold to a consistent agreement on what she may fear most (abandonment) she would have to already have lined up the next hope of a life of perfect happiness - another man.

Great point Square, and thanks for the well-wishes ☺️.  The answer to the next-day question is that more than likely, unless she has that "hope of a life of perfect happiness -another man" or enough PPD designed security and money to provide her a perfect man-finding playground, she will indeed change her mind because of the fear of abandonment traits, ppd traits and the unknown of the money. 

Knowing the laws of my state, i have already provided to her the information of just how financially 'set' she would be as a single lady and i can tell from her reaction, that she would be proud of that and not have to worry about finances for the rest of her life (if managed well 🤣).  So i have already removed the money concerns, but her personal security concerns are next. 

She received a very strong "no" from me yesterday on any attempts by me for marital relationship improvement, and i encouraged her to go live at our second home (condo) for the summer and relax, (which is in a coastal USA community and shes a beach girl), in which she feels much safer having neighbors all around.  I can tell from her reaction, that money + condo + beauty + a husband that doesn't care (indifferent) what she does (online or in-person) with her personal time= opportunity.  I can see the mental gears moving. 

She also BPD raged at me yesterday, when my legs got tired from sitting and I decided to stand and talk.  She remained sitting and started repeatedly yelling (in that angry BPD voice/glare) to "Sit down! ,  Sit down!  , S-I-T  D-O-W-N!!!... what are you going to do SoT, stand there and try to rule over me like a fu#!ng king!!!"  🤪🤬 

I calmly told her i was not going to sit, but she was welcome to stand up and join me. She said "ok i will!"😡 and then stood.  5 min later i sat back down and she sat also.  Haha i felt like repeating this over again to see if she would automatically stand up and then sit, the next time i did.

I had already moved the conversation from the onset, into our living room where she has a Google cam (account managed by her) in place 24/7 because of her PPD traits and then later recorded the playback of this even on my phone, with other documentation to support the time/day event.

Lol, the hypocrisy of that rage moment while she attempts to get me to 'do' for the marriage because i dont 'do' enough.  The queens hypocrisy knows no bounds. 

So, back to your great points, i believe the answer is yes, she will need that hope to continue moving forward and yesterday was a big additional step to her building that in her mind.  She ended by accusing me of only desiring "cohabitation" with her and stated "SoT, you seem to be fine with having just a ROOMMATE! and I need more than that!"   

That is a great mental start toward that needed 'hope' you mention!  I will continue in indifference and maybe her hope will turn to action. 

SoT

[escapingman]

All strength to you SoT. I am sure I have asked this before, but are we married to the same wife?

Keep strong and hopefully she find a knight on a horse that will look after her (until she discards him too).  At least that it was my STBX is telling me I should be, a knight treating her like a princess!

[square]

Indeed, who knows who she might meet while staying at the condo? Perhaps you will become extra boring now and she may have to find something to do.

It's a trigger for my H when I walk away when we are talking (arguing). He would interpret my standing up during conversation as a precursor to walking away (whether we were arguing or not) and feel like was being discarded/rejected. So that is a scenario that could easily have happened here.

For my part I would lose patience pretty quickly because I no longer have any interest in standong on my head to soothe him. If a brief "I'm just tired of sitting, go on with what you were saying"  didn't do the trick, I'd have no interest in putting in energy to stop the meltdown. I'd hate the meltdown but I hate even worse the grave imbalance of being responsible for managing both of our emotions. Unfortunately that dynamic is fundamental to our relationship and I'm just DONE DONE DONE with it.

[SonofThunder]

All strength to you SoT. I am sure I have asked this before, but are we married to the same wife?

Keep strong and hopefully she find a knight on a horse that will look after her (until she discards him too).  At least that it was my STBX is telling me I should be, a knight treating her like a princess!

Thanks EM!  Yes haha i believe my wife must be your wife's long lost twin. Maybe they will meet one day and bond (or short-circuit arc in matching polarity..) 😂  i know our situations are similar, just that Ive been hitched to this cart long enough that my kids are all grown and married.

This steed is physically and emotionally tired, but remaining steadfast and hopeful toward a goal.  You/We are not alone!  Be encouraged and thanks for the encouragement. 

Your Out of the FOG comrade,

SoT

[SonofThunder]

...I no longer have any interest in standing on my head to soothe him. If a brief "I'm just tired of sitting, go on with what you were saying"  didn't do the trick, I'd have no interest in putting in energy to stop the meltdown. I'd hate the meltdown but I hate even worse the grave imbalance of being responsible for managing both of our emotions. Unfortunately that dynamic is fundamental to our relationship and I'm just DONE DONE DONE with it.

+1 

Thanks Square

[SonofThunder]

SoT,
Thank you for sharing your experiences with the IDD cycle and drama triangle...I am sorry to hear you're in a bit of an "escalated" season, but I guess it's to be expected that one won't be discarded by their abuser forever. I'm also sorry that your nice weekend was ruined by her bringing up this absurd accusation. It does strike me as a possible projection that she keeps bringing up online chatting with this woman ... that perhaps she's covering for her own behavior by saying you're doing that. That's very much something my uPDw would do. I think you hit the nail on the head with that smokescreen-projection idea.

Thank you for sharing about your situation regarding divorce. I've often wondered to myself, "what are Son of Thunder's personal goals that lead him to need to stay married?" But what you said about the impact on your business and employees make quite a lot of sense. I can see for a business owner how a divorce of the owner would affect everyone in the company.

It sounds like your wife has a pretty amazing situation if she were to take you up on it...my wife would be quite envious of the opportunity to go live on the beach by herself and with her friends, and without me! Sounds like a dream scenario.

I'm hesitant to offer advice, because you are so much further along than me, but if you are not communicating with this woman she accuses you of chatting with, would it hurt to just clearly tell your wife, "no, I have zero relationship with this woman, never have, and I'm hurt that you think I would." I do wonder if laughing it off and walking away implies guilt where there is none...where a simple, "no, you're wrong" (without further explanation or defensiveness) can at least state clearly that you are innocent.

Oh, also, "our marriage is falling apart because of my lack of effort"...sheesh, I have heard that one word for word! Seriously, are all these PDs attending the same "how to be a Narc" college? It's crazy.

Anyways, thanks as always for your candor and honesty! It's an encouragement to the rest of us.

user, thank you. 😀

Both times she has accused me regarding this woman, i have stated the facts that i have not spoken to, seen or communicated with this woman for over 20 years, when she was a close friend of my wife. The first time, i advised my wife to ask her friend, which she did over Facebook and the friend validated. I purposefully do not engage in social media because its fodder for a NPD/BPD/PPD to attack me verbally from any angle. 

My wife's excuse for second accusation last week was because this woman said on her Facebook feec that she is "simply focusing on herself" after an apparent difficult divorce from her 2nd husband and then went out and bought a truck. (Haha I drive the same brand/model).  This woman currently lives over 1300 miles away from our home btw.. 🤣

So, if i also drive a truck and am reading books about understanding myself better, then i must be having secret, illicit conversation with this woman, since i knew her 20+ years ago. 😳😂. 

Sorry if i was not clear. I did laugh at my wifes accusations, but i purposefully dont get visibly angered either, because in predation, anger is a manipulation win for my wife.  I simply stated the truth in calm indifference.  Lol a year ago, i sent my sister-in-law decaf specialty coffee around her birthday because her GERD was acting up and my uPDw accused me of the same inappropriate behavior.  Because shes 1. a woman  2. I care about her health and enjoyment of coffee. 

Nahhhh....im flying the bullshit, NPD, controllling predator flag 🇷🇺 and sticking with smokescreened-projection. 

And yeah, same university.  We need a name for this college btw 👍😉.  Thanks for the advice, encouragement and friendship.

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Ahh, thanks for the clarification! It wasn't clear to me if you stated the facts or just laughed it off. Sounds like you did your part to state the truth (which I should have realized!) If she doesn't believe you, that's totally on her! I'm sorry she continues to accuse you and make up all this bullshit. It's absurd.

I will give some thought to a name for this University...it certainly needs a name!

You're welcome, ditto! Thank you for the advice, encouragement and friendship.

Looking forward to the college name!  Yes, i wrote "laughed it off and walked away" on my original post.  Sorry for the detour by my vagueness.  The first time, I JADED in self defense.  The second time was the same truth given, but this time without anger due to its ridiculousness.  My "laughing it off" is my internal-laughing way of coping with anger, when expressed anger is a PD victory. 

I can be my own best friend, so "we" 🙄 had a good internal laugh about how absolutely insane it is with not only living with a PD, but the reasoning behind her confrontation.  Helps me to blow off steam.   Again, thank you for the advice. 

In our 'marriage improvement' chat over the weekend, I utilized the hurt of her multiple accusations as another nail in the coffin of my interest in the marriage and on the triangle, she was the perpetrator in that ludicrous confrontation.  I look at her attempts at the marriage chat, and her trying to assign me the past blame and the future effort, as her dance around the triangle, positioning herself now as a victim and me as perpetrator. 

But again, i cant help but think the confrontations and the chat, are all a part of discard and devalue as she dances around the drama triangle; all done in potential hypocritical smokescreen-projection to cover up her internet follies with other men.

Time will tell. 

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Do you think there is movement happening toward Divorce? Her comment you mentioned in your first post, "well maybe this is it..." and your "time will tell" comments...I wonder if things are moving more toward that direction? Or are you still adamantly against pursuing that due to the work implications? Also if she's having internet emotional affairs with other men, that seems like something you wouldn't want to put up with (or maybe you don't care...no judgment here either way!).

Either way, I hope you can get back to your state of calm/MC/discard, which isn't exactly fun, but at least is better than the drama triangle.

I believe i am moving toward a mutual divorce at best or a divorce that is less 'going for the jugular' by my uPDw, due to either her getting tired of living with a zero-performance (her attempts fail, like last weekend) and indifferent minded roommate, or her doing something stupid that gets exposed and therefore plays in my favor regarding a 'difficult' divorce. 

Honestly, i thought it would take only 2-3 years to reach that point, because of the timing of all my past full IDD cycles.  The fact that im at the 4 year mark this coming summer since my return from the short healing-separation i initiated is another reason i believe she is getting NPD 'supply' from additional sources, such as conversations with men online. 

She has a reputation to uphold and so i do not believe she is having illicit conversations online, but probably being a bit flirty and getting some attention which feeds her.  As far as my 'putting up with?.... My husband pride has been gone for a long time, and I give zero craps if she's flirting with men online.  If one developed, it would help my situation immensely, but she will 100% safeguard her stellar reputation in her communities. 

So again, yes, i believe im heading in the right direction and trying to live my daydreams while married, while also being an indifferent roommate who puts up with the occasional devalue attempt that falls flat.  The work situation will be protected by either a mutual (fair) divorce or something to my protective favor (some major mistake she does that puts the advantage ball on my side of the net). 

SoT

[square]

I have to wonder about the "time will tell" remark - if she believes she has a potential suitor on the hook and waiting to see how it develops.

[SonofThunder]

Do you think there is movement happening toward Divorce? Her comment you mentioned in your first post, "well maybe this is it..." and your "time will tell" comments...I wonder if things are moving more toward that direction? Or are you still adamantly against pursuing that due to the work implications? Also if she's having internet emotional affairs with other men, that seems like something you wouldn't want to put up with (or maybe you don't care...no judgment here either way!).

Either way, I hope you can get back to your state of calm/MC/discard, which isn't exactly fun, but at least is better than the drama triangle.

Bookwork7,

I want to add to my reply that ultimately i believe that divorce will result in a much improved relationship with my future uPDexwife, which is part of a hopeful goal for me.   

With 30+ years of marriage and with 2 married children, my uPDw (chosen) and I are now, in my mind, in the same category as my FOO members and my children (unchosens).  4 years ago, my uPDw declared to me that by separating with the consideration of divorce, I was (her words) throwing away a 26 year history.

Personally I believe that is as true as removing statues erases history; which is zero %.  I expressed that to her again over the past weekend and she stated that she no longer feels the same way regarding throwing away our history (a good thing imo). 

I told her that imo divorce only changes a formal legal agreement, but does not affect my love for her (desiring best for her).  I told her that just as the minute prior to our marriage, i was equally loving and loyal to her as the minute after the marriage contract was signed. The only difference was a signed marital contract. A legal divorce simply nullifies the prior legal agreement and legal ramifications that go along.   

I told her that if divorce occurs, i will still be loving her (desiring best for her) and there is nothing she can do to stop me from desiring best for her, but that my abilities to love her would be clearly limited by law and ethics, as i would obviously not interfere with her new legal freedom and privacy.  We have kids together and will be both needing to interact together as grandparents and also interact at funerals and other life events that 'unchosens' interact.  We both know divorced people who get along fine, respect their history together and make it work great. 

I have one piece of experiential knowledge in my favor. My uNPDfather is an 'unchosen' and before my being aware he had disordered issues, i was highly intertwined with him in business, although I live hours from him.  That intertwining combined with uNPD caused him to covertly manipulate, control, hurt, belittle and rage wherever he could because of the legal intertwinement. 

As i was coming Out of the FOG, i carefully, creatively and steadily unraveled my legal business connections with him.  Upon completion of those plans, leaving him with zero legal methods to manipulate me, his drive to do those PD behaviors greatly diminished, leaving conversational PD behaviors as his only method to attempt, which is easy for me to cut short.  Our relationship improved. 

Based on my experiences with this, and with the multiple decades of relationship with my wife, i believe once a divorce dust settles, our relationship may vastly improve because the intertwining is reduced greatly.  I look forward to the potential of having such a relationship with her in the future, that imo, will be much improved vs the one we have now. 

In that light, a divorce may be the most loving thing on the horizon for both of us.  She obviously cannot understand that and i do not mention it, as it comes across as the cheesy "can we still be friends" high school relationships.  But again, its already a relationship reality for me and my father and although my relationship with him is purposefully distant and guarded, its still better than it was.

SoT

[SonofThunder]

I have to wonder about the "time will tell" remark - if she believes she has a potential suitor on the hook and waiting to see how it develops.

Square, i am eagerly now awaiting her next moves since she received a clear 'no' that my desire to try to improve a marriage, nor believe it can be achieved, are zero.

Fear of abandonment (FOA) may once again dominate and she may simply clam shut, kick the time-can down the road and confront once again in the future, acting like this past conversation never happened.

She may also decide to aggressively, angrily pursue divorce, such as is written about in the book 'Splitting'.  She may though, pursue quick companionship to diminish the FOA experiences.  In fact, i believe her online relationships (if they exist) are a growing 'database' of contacts to utilize to shorten FOA. 

SoT

[square]

I'm guessing she will secure a new relationship prior to making any divorce moves.

[SonofThunder]

I'm guessing she will secure a new relationship prior to making any divorce moves.

Square, i believe she has already developed friendships online that may quickly provide relationship opportunities, but her reputation in the community, her girl-friendship circles and also in the local business community is so very important to her needs. 

In addition, she will need to work on a SoT smear campaign in those same groups so she can be the victim on the triangle, while tighter-aligning those male relationships, once a divorce is public knowledge in the reputation groups. 

I also believe that in order to have the ammunition she needs for the smear campaign, she is going to dance around the triangle to the rescuer side once more, telling me that she understands now that shes been difficult to live with, but again (as she opened with over last weekend) "SoT, i know our relationship is strained, but i simply react to you".

Followed by a reintroduction of  "Im hard to live with because your so focused on yourself and self-care at this point, that i dont fit in your life...when is MY time with you SoT??...what part of each day do you set aside for 'us time' SoT, because you've carved out other parts of your day for coffee, work, cooking and reading prior to bed, but where is MY daily slot SoT??". "If you made time for US SoT, i would be easier to live with...". 

Haha 'us' = me being her handyman, me being her bookkeeper, me taking her shopping, me walking around the neighborhood with her in her full silent-treatment mode, so she can say "why are you so quiet?".  Im done and already told her so calmly.

But again, she will need to dance the rescuer mode to have my 'no' be the persecutor, so she can then waltz over to the victim side and smear me to the groups as the one walking out of the relationship.  I frankly dont care one bit.  Her groups are not my groups.  But it will make her feel better, and the male-relationships in waiting, will be the only shoulders she can cry on, while she waits for her large lump $$ sum to suffer on for the rest of her life. 

But hey, im prepped and ready and I can still love (desire what's best) her like a long-history, unchosen family member after all the divorce dust settles down.  As far as a timeline for all that to happen?  Dont know, but we are progressing nicely in that direction and im good with that. 

My indifference will carry on while she aligns all her prep work, and I will not rush a divorce because it will trigger a totally different, BPD rage vendetta scenario of hurt, as written about in 'Splitting' and there are others (employees) in my life whom i need to protect as I carefully weave the scenario thats most protective for my needs.

SoT

[square]

What ugly lives PDs lead.

It's just baffling. We could all be imperfect but loving people leaning on each other, but instead they cannibalize us.

[SonofThunder]

SoT,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful replies and expanding on where you are at. I truly enjoy reading your thought processes and how you have come to where you are. There is great wisdom in what you said, which I will try and remember for myself.

I'm glad to read that she is no longer thinks getting divorced would "throw away your 30 year history." IMO, this is akin to saying when you quit a job, or retire, you're throwing away your entire work history with that company, like it's null and void. This is obviously not the case! At work, all your accomplishments, projects completed, relationships built, etc, etc, all still stand. And in marriage, even if you get divorced, all your history still stands...the fruit of your two kids and now grandkids, the way you raised your kids, your relationships built, your memories and stories. I'm sure you've told her all this ad nauseam, but I'm glad she is finally seeing it.

I'm impressed that you said you would "still love her and want the best for her, but just not with the marriage contract." I've really struggled with this myself...my uPDw has caused me so much pain and grief, and seems to only see me as a tool at her disposal, that I am not sure I want the best for her anymore...not that I want her to come to harm, but I just find myself caring less and less about what the rest of her life looks like. But I don't mean to turn this around on me...

It does sound like your wife is very much appearance driven, which is my W as well. And since it sounds like you are well off, I bet she loves flaunting her wealth with nice purses and clothes/shoes, jewelry, cars, and the like. My wife is obsessed with purses that portray a certain image...or staying up with the latest fashion trends, which I find absurd. I wonder if yours is like that with certain objects? Seems like typical Narcissism to care so deeply about appearances. Anyways, if image is so important to her, I do imagine that a "SoT smear campaign" is in the cards, so she can look like the victim. But you know much better.

You are such an inspiration with your "live your daydreams while married" comments.

That's such an interesting story about your uNPDfather! Wow, I imagine that was overwhelming when you started coming Out of the FOG and realized you were intertwined legally with this person. I'm so glad you were able to find a way out of it...that is certainly not easy!

Going back to what we said earlier...our wives have obviously taken the same class at PD University, because I have heard almost word for word things like, "when is there time for US" or "if you did XYZ I wouldn't have to be this way" or "Why are you so quiet?" after her being ice queen. I'm glad you can calmly tell her you're done and no longer play these games. So much of what they say is so predictable.

All that to say, sounds like you have a good plan ahead of you and are thinking about it the right ways. Will be interesting to see what happens for SoT! I will be praying for you that you have the best outcome possible for both of you, and can truly end up in a "better off" position if it comes to that.

user,

Thanks for your thoughts and prayers brother.  Our wives are indeed very-very similar.  Thank you kindly for your friendship and encouragement. 

You wrote: "I'm impressed that you said you would "still love her and want the best for her, but just not with the marriage contract." I've really struggled with this myself...my uPDw has caused me so much pain and grief, and seems to only see me as a tool at her disposal, that I am not sure I want the best for her anymore...not that I want her to come to harm, but I just find myself caring less and less about what the rest of her life looks like."

This is not the religion board and so will mostly refrain, but having done a self-guided Bible study of 'love', i have my own definition and imo, i believe loving those that dont love back, while loving myself and my plans in 51% rule fashion is how my creator lives.  Therefore i choose to model his example, and I believe it allows me to find joy and meaning in the most difficult relationships. 

I recommended a particular 60-Minutes show YouTube video on a difficult Tourettes case to you in the past, and not sure you had time to watch.  I believe the parents in that video, exemplify the hardship and the love very-very well, despite the excruciating circumstances.  Sending their teenage daughter away to a facility where she can be better cared for was not only loving for the daughter (desiring & facilitating what is most beneficial/best) but also 51% loving themselves also.  SO very difficult scene and sad as hell, but it was the most loving thing to do in those circumstances. 

My uPDw is very-very difficult to have a relationship and the 3-C's rule applies to me.  But i do not believe she caused it either, nor has the power to change it.  Just like the Tourettes teenager.   Can my uPDw live well on her own?  Yes, but she will need a target to feed on.  I will desire what is best for my uPDw and she has full right to tell me off like a Russian warship.  I control myself.

Again, thanks for the support.

SoT

[SonofThunder]

What ugly lives PDs lead.

It's just baffling. We could all be imperfect but loving people leaning on each other, but instead they cannibalize us.

+1 

SoT