Experiences in the IDD cycle and the drama triangle’s relationship.

[square]

BW, if you ever get space (via seperation, divorce, etc), you may eventually heal enough to be able to have a feeling of wishing the best for your wife on some level.

The key is no longer being in the line of fire and having a chance to heal.

[escapingman]

SoT,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful replies and expanding on where you are at. I truly enjoy reading your thought processes and how you have come to where you are. There is great wisdom in what you said, which I will try and remember for myself.

I'm glad to read that she is no longer thinks getting divorced would "throw away your 30 year history." IMO, this is akin to saying when you quit a job, or retire, you're throwing away your entire work history with that company, like it's null and void. This is obviously not the case! At work, all your accomplishments, projects completed, relationships built, etc, etc, all still stand. And in marriage, even if you get divorced, all your history still stands...the fruit of your two kids and now grandkids, the way you raised your kids, your relationships built, your memories and stories. I'm sure you've told her all this ad nauseam, but I'm glad she is finally seeing it.

I'm impressed that you said you would "still love her and want the best for her, but just not with the marriage contract." I've really struggled with this myself...my uPDw has caused me so much pain and grief, and seems to only see me as a tool at her disposal, that I am not sure I want the best for her anymore...not that I want her to come to harm, but I just find myself caring less and less about what the rest of her life looks like. But I don't mean to turn this around on me...

It does sound like your wife is very much appearance driven, which is my W as well. And since it sounds like you are well off, I bet she loves flaunting her wealth with nice purses and clothes/shoes, jewelry, cars, and the like. My wife is obsessed with purses that portray a certain image...or staying up with the latest fashion trends, which I find absurd. I wonder if yours is like that with certain objects? Seems like typical Narcissism to care so deeply about appearances. Anyways, if image is so important to her, I do imagine that a "SoT smear campaign" is in the cards, so she can look like the victim. But you know much better.

You are such an inspiration with your "live your daydreams while married" comments.

That's such an interesting story about your uNPDfather! Wow, I imagine that was overwhelming when you started coming Out of the FOG and realized you were intertwined legally with this person. I'm so glad you were able to find a way out of it...that is certainly not easy!

Going back to what we said earlier...our wives have obviously taken the same class at PD University, because I have heard almost word for word things like, "when is there time for US" or "if you did XYZ I wouldn't have to be this way" or "Why are you so quiet?" after her being ice queen. I'm glad you can calmly tell her you're done and no longer play these games. So much of what they say is so predictable.

All that to say, sounds like you have a good plan ahead of you and are thinking about it the right ways. Will be interesting to see what happens for SoT! I will be praying for you that you have the best outcome possible for both of you, and can truly end up in a "better off" position if it comes to that.

I used to care a lot about that STBX should be happy and have a good life following our divorce. The more I see of her PD and how she behaves the less I care. I really don't care that much if she ends up living with her uNPDmum or end up marrying Jeff Beezos. All I want is for her to be as good for he girls as possible, but I cannot do anything about how she decides her relationship with them will be.

[SonofThunder]

SoT,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful replies and expanding on where you are at. I truly enjoy reading your thought processes and how you have come to where you are. There is great wisdom in what you said, which I will try and remember for myself.

I'm glad to read that she is no longer thinks getting divorced would "throw away your 30 year history." IMO, this is akin to saying when you quit a job, or retire, you're throwing away your entire work history with that company, like it's null and void. This is obviously not the case! At work, all your accomplishments, projects completed, relationships built, etc, etc, all still stand. And in marriage, even if you get divorced, all your history still stands...the fruit of your two kids and now grandkids, the way you raised your kids, your relationships built, your memories and stories. I'm sure you've told her all this ad nauseam, but I'm glad she is finally seeing it.

I'm impressed that you said you would "still love her and want the best for her, but just not with the marriage contract." I've really struggled with this myself...my uPDw has caused me so much pain and grief, and seems to only see me as a tool at her disposal, that I am not sure I want the best for her anymore...not that I want her to come to harm, but I just find myself caring less and less about what the rest of her life looks like. But I don't mean to turn this around on me...

It does sound like your wife is very much appearance driven, which is my W as well. And since it sounds like you are well off, I bet she loves flaunting her wealth with nice purses and clothes/shoes, jewelry, cars, and the like. My wife is obsessed with purses that portray a certain image...or staying up with the latest fashion trends, which I find absurd. I wonder if yours is like that with certain objects? Seems like typical Narcissism to care so deeply about appearances. Anyways, if image is so important to her, I do imagine that a "SoT smear campaign" is in the cards, so she can look like the victim. But you know much better.

You are such an inspiration with your "live your daydreams while married" comments.

That's such an interesting story about your uNPDfather! Wow, I imagine that was overwhelming when you started coming Out of the FOG and realized you were intertwined legally with this person. I'm so glad you were able to find a way out of it...that is certainly not easy!

Going back to what we said earlier...our wives have obviously taken the same class at PD University, because I have heard almost word for word things like, "when is there time for US" or "if you did XYZ I wouldn't have to be this way" or "Why are you so quiet?" after her being ice queen. I'm glad you can calmly tell her you're done and no longer play these games. So much of what they say is so predictable.

All that to say, sounds like you have a good plan ahead of you and are thinking about it the right ways. Will be interesting to see what happens for SoT! I will be praying for you that you have the best outcome possible for both of you, and can truly end up in a "better off" position if it comes to that.

I used to care a lot about that STBX should be happy and have a good life following our divorce. The more I see of her PD and how she behaves the less I care. I really don't care that much if she ends up living with her uNPDmum or end up marrying Jeff Beezos. All I want is for her to be as good for he girls as possible, but I cannot do anything about how she decides her relationship with them will be.

EM, for clarity, i said nothing regarding my wife's 'happiness and a good life.'   My interest is my being able to 'love' her after divorce.  My desire is for ME, not her.  She cannot control or manipulate my desire to 'love' her. 

Again, my definition of love is desiring and potentially facilitating what is best/most-beneficial for another person.  What is 'best' imo is determined by ethics, law, morality and a foundational truth source outside myself.  For me, the foundational source is the Bible, but others may choose their own foundational source.  But again, ethics, morals and law apply. 

For example of that last comment; if someones personal choice for a 'foundational truth source' has them choose to fly a fully loaded plane into a building, that is universally immoral, unethical and illegal in my country. Also my foundational source advocates protection from physical abuse of myself and others, so what is 'best', imo is "Lets Roll". 

Now, back to my uPDw: i dont give a rats ass if shes "happy" or experiencing a "good life" as those are hers to determine for herself.  But i do care enough about her to love her (my definition) as best possible and potentially facilitate where she cannot facilitate herself.  I can 'love' my neighbor the same way.  But imo, my difficult-wife of 30+ years is now 'family' and shes the mother of my kids.  I will mentally, upon divorce, move her from 'chosen' to the 'unchosen' category and love her like i love the rest of my unchosens. 

SoT

[square]

"Let's Roll," I felt that.

[SonofThunder]

I have to wonder about the "time will tell" remark - if she believes she has a potential suitor on the hook and waiting to see how it develops.

Hello Comrades,

Well now...that past weekend was one of the most emotionally draining 2 days ever.  I have been thinking very deeply about the hotel incident and will state a few points of consideration first. 

1. My uPDw and I have little in common, and she knows it.  Therefore what we do have in common is 'sacred'.

2. Travel is one of the activities we actually do well together.  It is 'sacred' because it provides brief reprieves of daily PD traits, and for my uPDw, her frame of mind when traveling, is upbeat. 

3. Trust is a KEY point to a marriage and marriage covenant. Trust therefore, is also 'sacred'. 

My uPDw, in her second (same subject/person as months back) questioning, paranoid confrontation of me at a vacation hotel, violated sacred ground. 

Over this past weekend, my uPDw confronted me yet again regarding my irritation (devalue on the IDD) and moved heavily around to the victim side of the drama triangle, wondering why i was STILL so irritated after a week of time and stated that if I had not "caused"....

(paragraph from my original post on this thread):
"6 months ago, another one my wifes old friends posted pictures of her new (first-time) bold/bright dyed hair and I asked my wife "what other things did she change?" (tattoos, vehicles, clothing), insinuating that yet another one of her friends is in a life crisis 😂. My uPDw looked at me strangely on my response and said angrily "why would you be interested in whether she colored her pubic hair??" 😡  I JADED and stated that she was way off base, and she walked off angrily."

....the mistrust, that she would not have had to confront me about the thoughts running around in her head and stated again that I am the reason our marriage is troubled. 

Square later referenced my "time will tell" remark about my wondering if this incident is really a smokescreen-projection of my uPDw's own behaviors that time will reveal.   I have decided that violating one of the only sacred activities we share and violating the sacredness of marital trust by false accusations leveled at me, based on absolutely paranoid falsehood, is where i draw the line.  This violation will be the hill my marriage is sacrificed.

"Time will tell" is not waiting for any internet follies to arise; trust and sacred ground is a bigger violation than her getting any potential online validation.  I told her i am 100% moving forward to divorce.  Upon hearing that news, she jumped strait to 'perpetrator' on the triangle, and the verbal gloves came off.  She put discard into full reverse and came full-stop in devaluation.  Non-breakable (luckily) items came flying off the counter (not in my direction) in BPD raging insults and ended with her driving away from the home. 

Upon her return, she came into the home on the triangle as a victim. Getting nowhere with me in my MC and noJADE (thank you Out of the FOG!) regarding my decision, she began a hyperventilating crying-rage repetition of the same two phrases; "i cant do this!!"...."I'm not going to live through this!!" as she paced the kitchen floor (Fear-of-Abandonment surfacing).  I had to make sure she did not pass out and hurt herself, so I just wrapped her up in a tight hug and held her until the repetitiveness subsided.  When i knew she was through the panic attack, i released her from the hug and she then walked silently away and went to the bedroom. 

I stayed down in the living room in the dark, in a vegetating pile of emotional exhaustion on the couch.  About 2 hours later, my (apparent couple glasses of wine) uPDw came down as 'rescuer' on the triangle and in full love-bombing mode, sat next to me, wrapped her arms around me, kissed my face and seductively stated "im still your WIFE... Are you still allowed to make love to your WIFE?"  I refused intimacy and she walked away a victim of my refusal, with passive-aggressive mumbles reverberating off the walls of the stairwell.  I simply laid over on the couch in my clothes and fell asleep. 

The next morning, she came down calm, energetic and back into full discard mode on the IDD.  She told me she had too much to drink, was embarrassed that she pleaded with me for sex to try and fix things, thanked me for not accepting her offer for sex and then said, in the perpetrator side of the triangle.. "SoT...WHY are you still here??"  (In this house).  I told her plainly that I would be leaving Tuesday (tomorrow) and will be officially separated until divorce.  She later that day, still in discard, asked me business-like logistical questions regarding her living alone, in which I simply resorted back to my indifference toward discard, answering her questions in business-like fashion. 

Yes, time may still tell, but I am moving officially forward tomorrow and my uPDw has stated she will be "traveling for the day" so it works well. 

SoT

[escapingman]

All strength to you SoT!

This is freaking me out to read as my STBX has behaved exactly the same.

Good luck with your new journey. I will be there supporting you.

[SonofThunder]

All strength to you SoT!

This is freaking me out to read as my STBX has behaved exactly the same.

Good luck with your new journey. I will be there supporting you.

EM, thanks for the support and good wishes!  We are not alone...we are comrades in our experiences, as we move forward in this steady process. 

SoT

[square]

SoT, wishing you strength and clarity.

[notrightinthehead]

Gosh! So much drama! I am sorry you have to go through this SoT. I can just imagine how drained you felt that evening. A little distance might do you good and help you find some peace and clarity. Please be patient and kind with yourself. Do something uplifting, normal. Looking back when I was at that point, I was almost numb, in a state of shock.  Sending you strength for the coming days.

[SonofThunder]

SoT, wishing you strength and clarity.

Thank you Square, its been multiple mentally and physically exhausting days, but I am a steer in a blizzard moving forward.  May face drama triangle relapse attempts as this separation hits home with my uPDw.

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Gosh! So much drama! I am sorry you have to go through this SoT. I can just imagine how drained you felt that evening. A little distance might do you good and help you find some peace and clarity. Please be patient and kind with yourself. Do something uplifting, normal. Looking back when I was at that point, I was almost numb, in a state of shock.  Sending you strength for the coming days.

Thanks NotRight,

Yes, it was exhausting.  I moved out today and the separation to divorce has begun. Its going to get very interesting.  After the weekend BPD rage, followed by the panic attack, then calm broken by an attempt at intimacy to lovebomb and then back to full discard, Its been a real PD circus.  My uPDw packed a bag this morning and left for our second home and was fully aware I moved out today.

Im expecting a smear campaign to all others and cordial business-like discard behavior toward me at first, then followed by the PD gloves coming off when lawyers get involved and shes detached and feeling powerful and vindictive. I have no idea where i will land financially, but what kind of price can i put on peace??   

But heck, im out!  Im going to work on the beginning of healing, yet realizing that 30 years is going to take a very long time to unravel, if ever.  Thanks for the good wishes. 

SoT

[falsebalance2]

Gosh! So much drama! I am sorry you have to go through this SoT. I can just imagine how drained you felt that evening. A little distance might do you good and help you find some peace and clarity. Please be patient and kind with yourself. Do something uplifting, normal. Looking back when I was at that point, I was almost numb, in a state of shock.  Sending you strength for the coming days.

Thanks NotRight,

Yes, it was exhausting.  I moved out today and the separation to divorce has begun. Its going to get very interesting.  After the weekend BPD rage, followed by the panic attack, then calm broken by an attempt at intimacy to lovebomb and then back to full discard, Its been a real PD circus.  My uPDw packed a bag this morning and left for our second home and was fully aware I moved out today.

Im expecting a smear campaign to all others and cordial business-like discard behavior toward me at first, then followed by the PD gloves coming off when lawyers get involved and shes detached and feeling powerful and vindictive. I have no idea where i will land financially, but what kind of price can i put on peace??   

But heck, im out!  Im going to work on the beginning of healing, yet realizing that 30 years is going to take a very long time to unravel, if ever.  Thanks for the good wishes. 

SoT

I've learned so much from you in just a few weeks, SOT!

It is not in vain - you will be set on fire in order to be the light sometimes.

I've read your story and had to even double check that you're still speaking to your adult kids because you could seriously be my dad married to my mother based on what you wrote. (She was diagnosed BPD/histrionic but they kept this hush hush from me.)

I always root for my father to break away from that death trap even tho I am NC with him. 

Rooting for you too, SOT

[SonofThunder]

Gosh! So much drama! I am sorry you have to go through this SoT. I can just imagine how drained you felt that evening. A little distance might do you good and help you find some peace and clarity. Please be patient and kind with yourself. Do something uplifting, normal. Looking back when I was at that point, I was almost numb, in a state of shock.  Sending you strength for the coming days.

Thanks NotRight,

Yes, it was exhausting.  I moved out today and the separation to divorce has begun. Its going to get very interesting.  After the weekend BPD rage, followed by the panic attack, then calm broken by an attempt at intimacy to lovebomb and then back to full discard, Its been a real PD circus.  My uPDw packed a bag this morning and left for our second home and was fully aware I moved out today.

Im expecting a smear campaign to all others and cordial business-like discard behavior toward me at first, then followed by the PD gloves coming off when lawyers get involved and shes detached and feeling powerful and vindictive. I have no idea where i will land financially, but what kind of price can i put on peace??   

But heck, im out!  Im going to work on the beginning of healing, yet realizing that 30 years is going to take a very long time to unravel, if ever.  Thanks for the good wishes. 

SoT

I've learned so much from you in just a few weeks, SOT!

It is not in vain - you will be set on fire in order to be the light sometimes.

I've read your story and had to even double check that you're still speaking to your adult kids because you could seriously be my dad married to my mother based on what you wrote. (She was diagnosed BPD/histrionic but they kept this hush hush from me.)

I always root for my father to break away from that death trap even tho I am NC with him. 

Rooting for you too, SOT

Thank you for the support Falsebalance2,

Im sorry to read you are NC with your father, but I am joyed to read that you have developed strong boundaries to protect yourself.  Yes, i have a great relationship with both of my children.  They are both married, and only one of them is aware of personality disorders, as I had to teach my daughter the toolbox, in order to protect herself from some behaviors aimed at her from her mom, but I have been very clear to note that her mother is undiagnosed, although the traits align well. 

My son, the oldest of my two, is not a direct target of his uPDmother, but indirectly, her PPD traits (i see NPD/BPD/PPD traits involved) have had an affect on his life, as he now deals with anxieties related to the behaviors growing up, as well as his witness and interaction of his mother with me. He is in the relationship circle #2 so he is clearly affected by PD behaviors. 

I have no plans to educate him on personality disorders, but rather, me utilize these coming decades as a single man, to spend more one-on-one time with him in some hobbies. Dealing with his mom for nearly 2 decades before he left home, and all my responsibilities of raising children and making a living, didn't leave much time for shared hobbies of depth, but rather i was simply supportive of his endeavors, and trying to steer my kids through difficult, surprise challenges in our family situations (I was in the FOG at that time), like a pinball in a pinball machine, getting kicked in all directions.  I remained proactive in our relationship around those hobbies (his sports and hobbies), which were a good son/dad thing to do. 

He and I have some shared interests that we have never been able to pursue together and I now hopeful for the time and energy to explore them together. But Its a bit sad, because the words of the song 'Cats in the Cradle' are so true, so hopefully my son may be able to find some time now (and willingness) to explore new adventures together, as he's now busy with his own career and wife. 

My daughter and I have always been close as well, and i am also a supportive fan of her interests.  But when she was starting college, our required interactions to help her learn, practice and implement the toolbox, really brought us together as friends.  I look forward to spending more quality time with her as well.  Like i promote here on Out of the FOG with others, I am steadily working on living my daydreams. 

Now, being  eventually divorced in coming year(s), i am hoping those daydreams expand some, although I proactively have no plans to date, as i will enjoy the rest of my life as a single dad, friend, coworker and explorer.  But first, i must fight the coming truth war and hopefully will come through it with enough resources to start working on some bucket-list items. 

I also wish you well in your continued learning, implementing and forward movement in your goals for yourself.   See you around the boards. 

Time will tell,

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Hi SoT,

Wow, I don't check this thread for a few days, come back and look what has happened! That is big news. Like I've said to others, I'm not sure whether to give condolences or congratulations...moving toward Divorce is such a huge decision, no matter how right it is.

It's always fascinating to me how you are able to "name" the various behaviors and interactions with your wife, and where they fit into the PD ecosystem (E.g.: discard, victim, devalue, etc). It's an inspiration to me, I need to get to that comfort level to be able to name behaviors as they are happening. Oftentimes I just don't know what is happening and feel confused and frustrated. I'll get there someday!

I fully relate to how emotionally exhausting these interactions can be. And then to have to get up and go be a business owner/boss and do your job is so challenging on top of it all. Thank you for your honesty in that regard!

I do agree that healing will take time. Have you read Psychopath Free by Jackson MacKenzie? It's not one I would recommend to someone who is still trying to live with PD, but my Therapist recommended it to me as a book he found helpful when he was divorcing his NPDw. I read it and found myself thinking, "this will be great once I'm actually free."

All the love, prayers and support here, SoT! I'm grateful for you sharing your journey with us, and will be interested to see how the coming weeks/months unfold as you take this step. Big news!

user

Hi user,

Yes, big news, as i ripped off the huge never-healing scab once again, but it had to be ripped off so it can heal properly this time.  Thank you so much for your positive and kind words, support, prayer, friendship and camaraderie as we walk this husband-with-PDwife journey together.   

You wrote: "...I need to get to that comfort level to be able to name behaviors as they are happening. Oftentimes I just don't know what is happening and feel confused and frustrated. I'll get there someday!" 

Yes, you will get there!  Being an introvert, high-radar, intj, i find it interesting to review each dramatic pd situation and name the traits, sides of the drama triangle dance between us, and how it all fits into the IDD cycle.  I guess its like sports teams, military and police do, as they review, analyze and plan for more future success and improvement in handling the situation.  Having done this review & mentally practice for a while now, i can surely say it helps tremendously to understand whats happening (PD analysis) as the event is unfolding. 

Also, patterns develop in these interactions which are all very similar to dealing with young children when they are not getting their desired way, so expecting the dance around the triangle and the traits that show with each side, helps me to protect myself with the toolbox, in whatever triangle role i am thrust into. 

This particular event, which became my hill for the marriage to die upon, was truly a next-level event, as she allowed her behaviors to permeate 'sacred' ground.  Ive had paranoia questioning in the past, but this was same-subject-person related and fully fabricated out of thin-air on her end and marital trust was gone.  I was also confronted on 'sacred' ground; a place that has tremendous history with my family and then lastly on 'sacred' travel, one of the only activities that she and I do well.  With PD boldness progressing (because I was in 'indifference' mode to her discard), onto sacred ground, and her potentially smokescreen-projecting in full hypocrisy, i made my stand. 

Lastly, I'm glad I made my stand on an event in which she knows down deep, crossed into sacred territory.  I have been able in the crazy drama of the last days, use that event to my conversational and decision-to-divorce favor. Making a stand on weaker terms would imo, cause her vindictive desires to potentially ramp sky high with a lawyer working with her to deliver hurt to me.  She still may be vengeful, but im prepped for it as best possible. 

Thanks again for your support and prayer.

SoT

[square]

She may come to rewrite the last straw event (in her head and out loud eg smear campaign).

But I totally understand. If I leave, the last straw being something that my H understands, deep down, that he messed up (and yes, that is possible) will make a huge difference.

Mine will flip flop between a state of understanding he blew it, and a state where he will have a completely different explanation, with perceived dark motives on my part. All based on his mood. Yours might have a more linear progression rather than a flip flop, but I don't know.

[SonofThunder]

She may come to rewrite the last straw event (in her head and out loud eg smear campaign).

But I totally understand. If I leave, the last straw being something that my H understands, deep down, that he messed up (and yes, that is possible) will make a huge difference.

Mine will flip flop between a state of understanding he blew it, and a state where he will have a completely different explanation, with perceived dark motives on my part. All based on his mood. Yours might have a more linear progression rather than a flip flop, but I don't know.

Hi Square,

My uPDstbxw flip flops as well.  In the past weekend's circus, she went through the panic attack and then rage, pleading me not to follow through with leaving, followed by a calm period (hours) of her relaxed and portraying that she has accepted it.  Hours later, she stopped accepting it and attempted sexual love-bombing and stating again that we were made for each other.  When i did not respond to her sexual advance, she went right back (pre-weekend style), to discard. 

In the panic/rage attack, she stated that she doesnt know what she has done wrong and in her opinion, stating "I have been the perfect wife".  In the calm period, she stated/blamed her screwed up (now deceased) parents for causing her mind to "think like it does" (paranoid confrontation) and she knows she has confronted me repeatedly but she just cant help it. 

At this time, she is very civil/cordial and acts if shes moved on with her life, accepting it.  In fact, before she left the house she put her hand on my back, and whispered "life goes on" in my ear. 

I am expecting and planning for a flip-flop of the entire weekend, shuffling once again over to the victim side of the triangle, when its time to draw up a separation agreement, which the agreement will be wise for me because of the complexity of the assets involved.  She was clear in stating to me that she had already (years before in a short separation) located a lawyer in which she will be working.  She also hinted to me that she's aware that i am protective over my company (started by me prior to our marriage and i am solo shareholder), but that she gave up a career to raise OUR children, so that should account for something.  Time will tell.

The last straw event is documented (if needed) on security cameras. Her PPD symptoms desires security cams in the entry area and main living areas, and I instructed her back at installation, to put the security cam account in her name, so she could manage them and to make me a family-member on her account so i can have access if needed to assist in security.  I enjoy personal security type hobbies as well, so this is all very natural.  So, clearly, consent to cameras with video/audio and consent for my use as well are contractual by nature of the security cam company. 

All i have described over the circus weekend has been captured on security camera and then i video the replay with my smartphone and save to personal cloud storage, in case she is counseled to erase cam histories.  Im desire not to have to need it, but if gets unfairly ugly and the last straw event is twisted to accuse me of wrongdoing, I'm at the ready.

SoT

[escapingman]

SoT, I get where you are coming from. I have 400+ recordings I wish to not use, but I feel I probably will have to use them at some point as STBX starts playing ugly.

[StartingHealing]

SonOfThunder,

Sending you all the best as you start your transition to a more peaceful life.

[SonofThunder]

SonOfThunder,

Sending you all the best as you start your transition to a more peaceful life.

Thank you StartingHealing! 🤛🏼

SoT

[escapingman]

What is your plan now SoT? Where are you staying, with friends or at a hotel? Hope you are not on your own and have some support.