Not sure what my mom is trying to accomplish right now

[moglow]

I don't owe them an explanation. If they were literally anybody else, and not my mom and dad, I wouldn't even be thinking about any of this. I doubt they'll actually be interested in my daughter, because they barely were with me, but they'd probably want her over just to have her over...

For many, the grandparent label and attention is far more important than the actual relationships - there's a certain expectation that as grandparents they'll be visible and cooed over. Let's face it, it's got to be awkward as hell when people inevitably ask about grands they never freakin mention, much less spend any time with. Not.Your.Circus.

You really don't have to speculate and second guess their motives, or explain to anyone "why". It's a non-issue given their history with you. Honestly at this point I'm kind of surprised you're letting her carry on about it at all, much less make excuses for their behavior. SO not your stuff to fix for her!

[easterncappy]

I don't owe them an explanation. If they were literally anybody else, and not my mom and dad, I wouldn't even be thinking about any of this. I doubt they'll actually be interested in my daughter, because they barely were with me, but they'd probably want her over just to have her over...

For many, the grandparent label and attention is far more important than the actual relationships - there's a certain expectation that as grandparents they'll be visible and cooed over. Let's face it, it's got to be awkward as hell when people inevitably ask about grands they never freakin mention, much less spend any time with. Not.Your.Circus.

You really don't have to speculate and second guess their motives, or explain to anyone "why". It's a non-issue given their history with you. Honestly at this point I'm kind of surprised you're letting her carry on about it at all, much less make excuses for their behavior. SO not your stuff to fix for her!

What sounds like an excuse?

I feel like I'm mostly just thinking out loud. I probably shouldn't be doing that here.

They're terrible people and I don't want them near my baby and I know they have zero good intentions. It's all ego and cult recruitment. My point, which I may have explained poorly, is that I feel that it's difficult to say "no" (and I know this is wrong and that I have to say "no") to my parents, even though if anyone else behaved this way, I'd find it very easy to tell them off and never speak to them again. I think that's like half FOG and half... well, people are biologically wired to like their family members, none of this is supposed to be as ugly as it is, and the feelings I have are inherently good, I just don't have good family to apply them to.

[Andeza]

I would also add that from a young age you were brainwashed to let them get away with crap. Including criminal acts. Of course saying no is hard.

[moglow]

Oh honey no! That came out all wrong and I'm sorry - I meant I'm surprised you're talking/listening to her. It sounds like SHE is making excuses for their behavior, not you!! You're not at all responsible for any of that nor do you have to listen to it, is what I'm saying.

[moglow]

I feel that it's difficult to say "no" (and I know this is wrong and that I have to say "no") to my parents, even though if anyone else behaved this way, I'd find it very easy to tell them off and never speak to them again. I think that's like half FOG and half... well, people are biologically wired to like their family members...

A therapist not too many years back point blank asked me: what would I do if a friend treated me the way mother does. Before I even took a breath or thought it through, I told her "they wouldn't be my friend and I'd have nothing to do with them!" And she just looked at me for a minute while it sunk in what I'd just said. Then she asked why mother gets a pass for something I know isn't right, that hurts me so badly. And something I knew is intentional on her part. The lights all started flashing at once from that point. It still took me a few years to really get it, but that one whacked me where I couldn't ignore anymore.

[treesgrowslowly]

Because I know they want to recruit another little girl to their family cult.

Part of this process is realizing that they don't/can't even acknowledge this much. They're still thinking promises and kissing up and denials - possibly even fauxpologies- are all that's needed here. It's not. YOU have to step up and just be the enforcer of your boundaries, same as you would with anyone else you don't want around your child. Like it or not, that's who they are - people you don't trust and sounds like you have little reason to trust. I had a hard time wrapping my head around that, that mother doesn't have a special In just because "she's the mother." She wouldn't get special access because she's a grandparent either - my older brother and I discussed that just after his daughter was born, that dear niece was never to be left alone with that woman. Mother'd already proven to us who she is and we had no reason to think she'd be any different with the next generation. Turned out she was no more interested in the grands than she was with us, but still. Hard firm boundary that he and I established right up front -we never discussed it with her, just lived it.

You really don't have to explain, apologize or discuss it with them, is what I'm saying. It's just not on the table and limiting information keeps it off the table.

I never 'got through' to my FOO about why I had to go NC and how messed up their approach to children truly is. Moglow is right - they don't see it as abuse, and even if they do, they have no idea how to fix any of it even if they say they will change...it's built in to how they are living....the next step is to ensure that the next generation is not forced to take on their ways.

I never explained myself to them.

Easterncappy your posts really resonate for me. When my child was a toddler, I remember thinking very viscerally, that my main goal was that IF or WHEN this child eventually encountered the disordered behaviours embraced by my FOO (i.e. if they busted through my boundaries somehow, some day) that my child would see those narcissistic,  disordered behaviours as completely odd and out of touch with reality. It was up to me to show my child what real relationships feel like.

And it worked. When my child deals with people who are completely self-absorbed, the question to me is "what is wrong with that person Mom?". They don't see narcissism as normal. But growing up, I had no such chance at developing that same understanding of disordered behaviour.

I had a thought yesterday that I'll share here as well. There is a subtle but definite difference in having people care about your birthday, and having people care about you on your birthday.

I was thinking about how most of my birthdays were spent with disordered people so far. And how they would want to celebrate my birthday with me, even when I didn't want them there (narcs!). It is because a birthday gives them a chance to dress up nice, go to a nice dinner place, and perform.... it is all about them. I have not really had a birthday where people care about me, and it happens to be my birthday. The narcs cared about the birthday - not me.

They 100% care about performing as if they are normal; they don't know how to actually be healthy people. It took me half my life to figure that out. Like you, I just couldn't find healthy relationships after such disordered experiences in childhood. You know you don't want your daughter to grow up in that.

You don't want your daughter to grow up confused by the way people are behaving around her on special events like her birthday. It isn't just about preventing abuse (which is of course of utmost concern!) It is about giving her the experiences she needs, experiences she won't get around disordered narcissists. It is too much of a burden for any child.

Your insights about this and your gut feelings about protecting her are right on.

Trees

[easterncappy]

That's an interesting point about birthdays. Come to think of it, I always sort of dreaded my birthday, because I never liked the whole performance around it. I was always forced to give someone I didn't like a hug or a kiss after they wished me a happy birthday and gave me candy or flowers. If I refused the hug or kiss, I was a bad guy. Every time I didn't want to do something, it was minimized, "oh come on - it's just a kiss!". We also celebrate International Women's Day, which was always as uncomfortable as my birthday, because it meant that the same man who sexually abused me would buy flowers and again, demand a hug and a kiss. I always found it fascinating how in our family, that holiday was actually about the one man in the house. And as usual, my refusual -> his anger -> my fault.

I had an aunt who, every single year, would invite herself over to your house and bombard you with stereotypical birthday things (balloons, flowers, wine, candy, etc.) and if your reaction to any of it wasn't as excited as she wanted it to be, she trash talked you to the rest of the family for weeks. Which then, my mom would blame me for, and she'd make me do something to "make up for what I did". I remember thinking this was a part of our culture, until I met other people from our culture in this country, and they went "huh?" when I casually mentioned these practices. Oh, turns out my family is just weird and mean. My mom thought I was "too extreme" when I recently told her that I didn't like any of these things and refuse to participate in them in the future. "I think you're making a bigger deal out of it than it really is"... of course I am.

Come to think of it, I don't want my daughter going through any of that either. :S So many holidays have been ruined for me that the best gift anyone can give me now is silence and not buying me a damn thing. That's probably not a healthy reaction but I can't help it.

I remember first opening up to my husband and also my priest about my family life. The priest knew all about the bad boyfriends and friends I've had before and had to help coach me through break ups with violent losers who I was scared of in the past. "Ohhh... everything makes a lot of sense now!". The conversation quickly switched to how I'm insecure and bad at boundaries because I had to grow up the way I did and how it's all fixable (this is why my mom hates both of them - they actually give me legitimate advice when things are bad ). Very different from my mom's reaction of "hah - well, you chose him! You're putting that poor boy through hell anyway!" any time I needed emotional support due to a bad situation I found myself in. I don't know if I could live with myself if, God forbid, my daughter ended up with some scrubby guy (it can ultimately happen to people who grow up with healthy parents too) and I didn't actually do everything in my power to get her out. I cannot imagine taking the side of someone who abuses her, as my parents did with so many of these guys.

It's so different. I'm rambling at this point. My due date is in a month and given my family history, she'll probably pop out a week or two early. So many thoughts are racing through my head. I genuinely don't understand how my parents held me as a baby and how my mom felt me kicking around in her for months and still decided to treat me the way they did. It is just incomprehensible to me. I think it goes so much deeper than "well, they were raised this way". So much of it has to be a choice to behave poorly.

[treesgrowslowly]

It's so different. I'm rambling at this point. My due date is in a month and given my family history, she'll probably pop out a week or two early. So many thoughts are racing through my head. I genuinely don't understand how my parents held me as a baby and how my mom felt me kicking around in her for months and still decided to treat me the way they did. It is just incomprehensible to me. I think it goes so much deeper than "well, they were raised this way". So much of it has to be a choice to behave poorly.

Easterncappy,

I would wager a bet that what you will learn about yourself as you take care of your child after she is born, is that you are not your mother. You may share some traits, you may even look like her in some features, but you are not her. My hope for you is that you feel it in your bones someday. I felt this realization settle into my own bones at some point after I became a mum.

Whether it is / was mental illness or a choice or some combination of factors, the decisions she made as a mother, were hers.

You have already begun your mothering journey. You are already a mother as you are thinking about your child and what you want for her as she grows up.

I quoted the above from you, because I had those same thoughts when I became a mum. How could my own parents be so crappy at parenting? It was very hard to believe at times. To believe that they just didn't feel the things I felt as a parent. That strong desire to protect. Is it an instinct they ignored? Who knows. All I know is that they didn't do a good job, and that I am not like them.

Glad you are finding this space helpful as you prepare for the birth of your baby.

You are not your mother. Your child is going to have joyful birthdays.

Trees

[Sojourner17]

Congratulations on the upcoming birth of your baby girl! 

I remember when I was pregnant with our first.  I was still in the thick of the FOG and my parents and teen sister were all their at the hospital for his birth.  Now my story is different as my parents did not sexually abuse me (my unpdm was sexually abused by her maternal grandfather).  It's been emotional abuse and enmeshment and parentification.  It went fairly well but the pressure to do things my unpdm way was intense.  They HAD to stay at our apartment (nevermind that we lived in a one bedroom apartment at the time). I didn't need to breastfeed... she didn't breastfeed me and I turned out fine, etc. 

With our second I asked my mom to come up alone as again we had limited space and the drama would get amped up.  She couldn't do that because she doesn't like to drive alone, she had to bring my sister as she doesn't get along with my dad, they HAD to stay at our apartment (we were in a 2 bedroom at that point). We had false labour and they ALL came up and it was aweful.  So DH and I said, it's ok, we will get a friend to watch our DS and chose to announce the arrival of our second born after he was already there.  It was way less stress! 
With our third we had moved 12 hours away so there was no way they could make it and we held the boundary that it was just our little family for the first 6 weeks.  It was so much more peaceful. 

With the last month of pregnancy and the first few months of getting used to having a little one it's so important to hold to what will bring you comfort and peace.  It sounds as if your parents are not safe at this point.  Focus on your immediate family.  Yourself, your DH and your DD.  Pregnancy and postpartum are enough stress in their own without extended family drama and issues.   

I really and truly wish you all the best with the coming of your little one.  It can be such a precious time.   

[easterncappy]

Thank you both.

My mom's backed down from "we're going to be there for the birth" to "please at least text me when you're in labor". A couple of years ago, I'd have gone "oh, lovely, she's respecting my boundaries". Now I'm smart enough to know that texting her when I'm in labor is probably going to result in a surprise hospital visit (my mom's the queen of "oh come on, it's just [insert thing that is actually a huge deal], you're being so dramatic and mean"), and also, I've only ever heard of one story of a woman's mom being involved in her childbirth and it being wanted or positive in any way. It's just not her business. I don't want to push a watermelon-sized person out of my crotch with my mom and her creeper husband putting even more stress on me. I've never done this before and it freaks me out and I don't need them there.

This pregnancy has been very eye-opening. I don't really understand how you can go from having a little person kicking around in you to voluntarily offering that same little person to a child molester once they're out. It doesn't compute at all. I wonder if she held me as a baby knowing that she'd do all of this, or if it came later. I'm assuming it's the former because all of this is just normal in our family, she might not have imagined all of the exact details but she knew what my dad was like and she knew how her mom handled those things and she thought this was alright. There's no excuse - I grew up in the dysfunction too, and I'd rather die than let it happen to my baby, she can't hide behind that excuse. It's sick. I've recently started to have panic attacks about the idea of ever having to leave my baby with them... I would never, but the thought of how that would go pops into my mind. There's something really disturbed about a woman who let all of this happen to her own child. And she's still that same woman - no remorse, no apologies, no attempt to make anything right.

I'm sorry, this is all over the place. I have a doctor's appointment today and I'm at that point before birth where I waddle like a penguin, lol. It's close. I'm terrified of the process and the family crap surrounding it. Quite frankly, all my mom could offer me is outdated childcare advice, so I won't even be coming to her for help after the baby is out. She keeps telling me "oh, it's all instincts, your instincts will kick in, instincts instincts instincts...", which is funny, because human beings are one of the only species where parenthood is learned, this is just a fact in sociology and anthropology. And her instincts must have been pretty sh!tty if she let her own offspring get repeatedly molested and abused. I'll be calling my friend who has a preteen and an elementary schooler who are the best kids I know for advice both on raising my baby and on childcare.

They don't need my baby for anything (tbqh I suspect they'll lose interest after a couple of months), and I don't need them for anything either. They only would want her to post pictures of her on social media and play pretend to be good people. I know they wouldn't respect boundaries about "don't post pictures where her face is visible" or "don't post pictures where she's a mostly nude baby", so she's not even getting the picture she wants after the baby is born. I have no guarantee it won't be shown to an actual child molester. I'm not interested in her plastering it on Facebook, thereby telling everyone the baby was born, and violating both mine and the baby's privacy. No no no no no.

[Cat of the Canals]

My mom's backed down from "we're going to be there for the birth" to "please at least text me when you're in labor". A couple of years ago, I'd have gone "oh, lovely, she's respecting my boundaries". Now I'm smart enough to know that texting her when I'm in labor is probably going to result in a surprise hospital visit (my mom's the queen of "oh come on, it's just [insert thing that is actually a huge deal], you're being so dramatic and mean"),

I think your instincts are spot on. This is exactly what my mother and MIL would do, too.

Don't text until baby's out, and make sure to tell the hospital staff: NO VISITORS, especially not mom and dad. You got this.

[moglow]

Friend, y'all have much bigger and brighter things on which to focus your hearts and energy! You're bringing sweetness and silly into your world and she deserves all the goodness you have to offer. Do that, for all of you. Mama's gonna do what she's gonna do and I'd so severely limit outgoing information [and incoming calls/texts] to where she's just not your business. DH can text respective parents "later" and let them know you and sweetness are well and happy. Maybe include a heavily swaddled baby pic as an added perk. Or not. Then turn the phones off /mute them for a while or several days or until you remember to turn them back on.

They can request anything they want - you get to decide what goes out. DO THAT.