Interesting observations from a neurologist

[Sneezy]

I took mom to a neurologist, as recommended by her family doctor.  We almost didn't make the appointment, as mom conveniently lost her purse, with her license and insurance card in it, right before the appointment.  Good thing I have copies of both of those items 

The neurologist immediately ruled out Parkinson's, which is the reason mom had the referral.  He said that if he had to pin a diagnosis on mom, he would say she has Dementia with Lewy Bodies.  Which originates in the same part of the brain as Parkinson's.  People who get the physical symptoms first are diagnosed with Parkinson's and people who get the cognitive symptoms first are diagnosed with LB Dementia.

The interesting part is that the neurologist went on to say that if mom went to a geriatric psychiatrist, that doctor would likely diagnose her with a psychiatric disorder.  It doesn't matter what we call it, what matters are her symptoms, which the neurologist said are hallucinations, delusions, paranoia, anxiety, and depression.  No surprise there.  At this point, I was in complete agreement with the neurologist and mom was seething.

Mom then started lashing out at me.  She got so bad and said such terrible things (none of her children love her, I don't care about her, etc., etc., etc.).  I was actually starting to tune out as it's nothing I haven't heard from mom before.  The hate in her eyes, though - she was looking at me like she was wishing I was dead.  At that point, the neurologist actually admonished mom for the way she was talking about me.  That floored me - a neurologist who routinely deals with serious brain issues was telling my mom that he rarely, if ever, hears a parent talk to her child the way my mom was talking to me.

The neurologist prescribed medication to help with mom's hallucinations and anxiety.  Mom has already told my sister that she isn't going to take it.

I read the section of this website about going no contact.  It says, and I agree, that it isn't right to go no contact with a child or an adult who is unable to care for themselves.  I wish I had gone no contact with my mom sooner.  But at her age, and given that she may have dementia (although her symptoms are nothing new), I can't bring myself to do it.

Everyone (my husband, adult kids, siblings) are telling me to stop answering her calls and to limit seeing and talking to her to once or twice a month at most.  And to be there if there is a true emergency, but to otherwise stay away from her.  But I don't know if I have the strength to do that.  Mom will eventually start calling.  And if I don't call her back or take her out, she will call and cry more often.  And in the past I've always given in.  What will it take for me to stand up for myself?

[Psuedonym]

Hey Sneezy,

Not sure which section of the site you're referring to, but this per this part: I read the section of this website about going no contact.  It says, and I agree, that it isn't right to go no contact with a child or an adult who is unable to care for themselves.

I believe that's referring to someone who's going to starve to death because they literally can't care for themselves, not someone who lives in a facility where all their meals are taken care of, they have transportation to grocery stores, pharmacies, and doctors appointments, and plenty of company and opportunities for social interaction. If your mother needs more care, I'm sure she can also be upgraded to assisted living. I know you're struggling with a lot of guilt, but don't let a particular interpretation of that one line that reflects that guilt let it do your decision making for you.

You aren't really trapped, believe me, except by your guilt. You can lessen contact or even go no contact and have your DH/siblings handle her affairs while you keep your distance. The neurologists comments (and as you know medical staff tends to lean towards siding with the elderly PD in question) is evidence of just how horribly your mother is treating you. You are the only one that can change this scenario. She will never change and will likely continue to get worse. I wish Woman Interrupted was still with us to offer you her wisdom.

 

[moglow]

Sneezy, you had a professional stand up for you, who saw and heard exactly what you're subjected to from her. You don't have to sit there and be her or anyone else's punching bag - no, not even with her a senior needing more care. YOU haven't changed and unfortunately neither has she when it comes to the way she treats you. My guess is she does it because she can, because she's always done it and because no one dares call her on it.

Mine lost her shit when I told her that if I'd ever have treated her the way she does me, she'd have cut me off and understandably so. After she cooled off she went back to her norm and acted like all was right with the world. Only it wasn't, not my world. I SAW it. Other people saw it. Having it validated and confirmed that I wasn't blowing it out of proportion or making it up, finally refusing to accept her excuses for the inexcusable - it changed me and I've not backed down. Finally.

My point is, this didn't just start and she's not likely to stop. But you can. You can find and hold onto some much needed boundaries, limit your exposure and even cut her off when she launches into that bullshit with a firmly spoken "I can see now's not a good time for you. I'll talk to you tomorrow/Sunday, mother." [Give her a few days to stew in it.] Once you hit "that point", don't listen to excuses or more haranguing about things that just aren't applicable or even yours to deal with at all. Politely end the phone call, quietly escort her to her door [or the facility front desk], pick up your keys and GO. And for the Lord's sweet sake, don't apologize for it either.

If she feels abandoned and all alone and that no one cares, maybe there's a mf reason, ya know?! That's on HER. Start out how you can hold out, as an old friend used to say. But START. Find your own limits and honor them!

[moglow]

Maybe think if it this way when all else fails and you're doubting yourself: what would you tell your child if someone were treating them that way? What would you want for them in that situation - that they roll over for it [again] or that they stand up for themselves? Whatever your mother may think, we can all stand and be responsible for ourselves Politely and respectfully without beating others up. And we SHOULD.

[AppleTree]

You have been given a precious gift. An unbiased professional has seen how you are treated and acted to support you. Not everyone is that fortunate. Take strength from it.

From you account your mother still has some, possible a lot, of capability to be responsible for her own actions - as evidenced by her persistence! She needs to be responsible and it's not wrong for you to manage the degree of contact you have because that is so. Apart from anything else, you owe it to yourself and those closer to you.

Set firm boundaries and stick to them! "Sorry Mum, I'm really busy right now and can't talk. I'll call on X as promised. I have to go - bye!" Repeat, repeat!

You have the strength & support of those close to you and should never feel guilty about caring properly for yourself. 

[Sneezy]

I know you're struggling with a lot of guilt, but don't let a particular interpretation of that one line that reflects that guilt let it do your decision making for you.

Wow, you hit the nail on the head!  I am using every excuse in the book and reading everything with a pre-determined bias in my head, solely to avoid doing what I need to do.  I'm afraid.  Not of my mom, but of the guilt I will feel when I pull back.  Well, it's time to put my big-girl panties on and take the advice I have given to others to heart.  I once told a friend that she needed to end an abusive relationship, no matter how guilty she felt about abandoning her boyfriend.  She had to get out because the relationship was hurting not just her, but everyone who cared about her.  It's time for me to take that same advice.  Psuedonym - I believe you are every bit as wise as Woman Interrupted.  Although I do miss all her emojis and setting the dog on fire 

Maybe think if it this way when all else fails and you're doubting yourself: what would you tell your child if someone were treating them that way?

Mo - I would go absolutely ballistic if someone treated my daughter the way my mother treats me.  In fact, my mother had treated my daughter terribly the last couple times they've been together and my daughter has pretty much given up on having a relationship with her grandmother.  And I'm proud of her for standing up for herself.  Time for me to do the same.

You have been given a precious gift. An unbiased professional has seen how you are treated and acted to support you. Not everyone is that fortunate. Take strength from it.

Yes, I'm still surprised at what the neurologist said.  His words were "wow, mom, you don't pull any punches, do you?"  Then he told her that mothers don't typically talk about their children like she does.  It was shocking that he weighed in like that.  It could be that he was trying to assess how my mom would react.  But I think he truly was surprised at her vitriol.

I appreciate all of you so much.  Your advice is invaluable 

[treesgrowslowly]

I am so glad the neurologist stood up for you Sneezy!

I understand that people worry about how they will feel if they go NC. One piece of advice I've shared before is that you don't have to see going NC as a permanent decision on your part. You can tell yourself you need a month break (or whatever time frame you decide on) and then make a plan to review how you feel at the end of that time frame.

You don't need to get to a place where you finally feel ok going NC forever. For me it was incremental. I decided to go VLC, and then I decided to try NC to see how it went. I did not put pressure on myself to say "Self, you've gone NC for ever now" The "always and never" thinking is what PDs do. In the real world, people can take breaks and decide things and then decide something else. Of course the PD in our life is not happy when we make decisions, but we are adults. We have the right to take breaks from other adults who are stressing us out.

Do you think she is more likely or less likely to take the medication if you take every phone call from her? Do you think you'll be able to help her manage her condition? Is this factoring in to how you feel when she phones you? Do you feel responsible for helping her with her condition?

I can sense your frustration that your family members do not seem to understand why it is hard for you to reduce contact with her. They may not be able to relate to how you feel about not taking her calls. It's likely that they don't feel the same things you feel.

Her tears don't affect them they way they affect you. You mentioned that you are worried that if you don't take her call she will cry. Yes she might cry.

In practical terms, what are the tasks that she leans on you for? Are you the only family member who will drive her to doctor's appointments or is there someone else who can do that for the next while?

If you do not want to stop taking her calls, can you make a plan to limit them so they are shorter in duration? Let her talk for 10 minutes and then tell her you have to go, and you'll talk to her next week. Then, it will be important to explore strategies you can use when the guilt and other emotions come up for you during that week.

Personally I didn't feel guilt as much as fear after going NC, and there's lots of different emotions people can feel after going NC. None of those emotions are wrong. It can be fear that comes up first for one person, and for the next person it can be guilt, it can be anxiety, it can be relief, it can be anger, etc etc that comes up first or most often...Like I said, for me it was fear that I felt the most, and it was hard. I was grateful for this forum when I found it. So glad you are here!

Trees

[Cat of the Canals]

I believe that's referring to someone who's going to starve to death because they literally can't care for themselves, not someone who lives in a facility where all their meals are taken care of, they have transportation to grocery stores, pharmacies, and doctors appointments, and plenty of company and opportunities for social interaction. If your mother needs more care, I'm sure she can also be upgraded to assisted living. I know you're struggling with a lot of guilt, but don't let a particular interpretation of that one line that reflects that guilt let it do your decision making for you.

  times 1000

Your mother is not alone, not helpless, not without resources. In fact, it sounds like she's in very good care, by pretty much any standard one might apply.

I also think, based on the last line of your post, that you know this isn't truly an issue of her survival. If it was, you wouldn't ask that question. The thing holding you back is the same old FOG it's always been.

Everyone (my husband, adult kids, siblings) are telling me to stop answering her calls and to limit seeing and talking to her to once or twice a month at most.  And to be there if there is a true emergency, but to otherwise stay away from her.  But I don't know if I have the strength to do that. 

Once or twice a month is too big of a step, then. Start with something smaller. When I first went from dutifully calling my mother once a week to once every ten days, I was terrified. If someone had told me to make it once a month (which is where I am now, BTW), I would have crumpled immediately. Once a month!? That's cruel! That's inhumane! I'd be the bad daughter she always implied I was! It's so much easier to set bigger boundaries if you start with baby steps.

[Sneezy]

You don't need to get to a place where you finally feel ok going NC forever. For me it was incremental. I decided to go VLC, and then I decided to try NC to see how it went. I did not put pressure on myself to say "Self, you've gone NC for ever now" The "always and never" thinking is what PDs do. In the real world, people can take breaks and decide things and then decide something else. Of course the PD in our life is not happy when we make decisions, but we are adults. We have the right to take breaks from other adults who are stressing us out.

Thank you, Trees!  You're right, I don't feel like I can make a permanent decision right now.  But an incremental approach might work.  For now, I've given myself a boundary, i.e. I am not going to call or see mom for a week.  I'd like to go longer, but for now, a week is a good goal.

Once or twice a month is too big of a step, then. Start with something smaller. When I first went from dutifully calling my mother once a week to once every ten days, I was terrified. If someone had told me to make it once a month (which is where I am now, BTW), I would have crumpled immediately. Once a month!? That's cruel! That's inhumane! I'd be the bad daughter she always implied I was! It's so much easier to set bigger boundaries if you start with baby steps.

Yep, baby steps.  I'm not going to go back to how things were.  I am taking one step at a time to get to where I need to be.  I am very lucky as my husband has suggested, and I have agreed, that he handle some of the issues with mom.  If there is a true emergency, and mom really needs something, he will handle it, or we will do it together.  I no longer want to be alone with mom, either in-person or on the phone.  So thank goodness for speaker phones.

I'd like to believe that my mom will take the new medication that has been prescribed, and that this will take the edge off of her anxiety.  But I think this is unlikely.  I need to be prepared for her to get worse, rather than better.  Someday in the near future, I will probably have to take over her finances and obtain more care for her.  But I need to do that in a way that prevents me from being the dumping ground for all her bad feelings.

[Psuedonym]

Hey Sneezy,

You are also wise and very kind...you should always remind yourself of that! One thing that helped me and maybe will help you is reframing the term 'going no contact' which has always struck me as wrong, because it puts all the ownership of the action on the abused person. Sure, your mother or my mother or anybody else's parents on this board would say 'oh woe is me, I have been abandoned'...but the truth is that the person who's been taking the abuse for years has finally said, "I will no longer accept this abuse and if you continue to act this way then the consequence of that is that I won't be interacting with you...if you want to change that situation then YOU CHANGE YOUR BEHAVIOR." It really is their choice to have no contact with you, pure and simple. They know what they need to change and they simply refuse to do it. And if your next thought is 'well she can't change' I will point out that PDs, particularly our parents, are extremely aware of how inappropriate their behavior is and deliberately hide it from others. In the case of the doctor, he was already on her #$%@ list and so she didn't care what he saw, but as you said in your last reply she won't behave in the same horrible ways when your husband was present. Mine was exactly the same. She damn well knew how awful her behavior was so she'd only do it in front of myself and my F because she thought we had to put up with it and didn't have a choice. Turns out she was wrong. My DH (bless him) stayed in contact with her for the last year of her life and he would constantly say things like "look, you don't even need to apologize and mean it, just commit to trying to change your behavior which has been extremely toxic and your only child will actually talk to you." Nope. She literally chose to go to her grave trying to create a massive smear campaign against me using everybody she ran into. And that was her choice. Totally bananas but it is what it is. Whatever you decide to do, keep reminding yourself that your mother also owns the choices that she makes and like everybody else in the world, her actions have consequences.

 

[Sneezy]

And if your next thought is 'well she can't change' I will point out that PDs, particularly our parents, are extremely aware of how inappropriate their behavior is and deliberately hide it from others.

Psuedonym - You are 100% correct.  My mom must realize how inappropriate her behavior is, because she doesn't treat anyone else the same way she treats me.  And my next thought was indeed, "well she can't change."  But that's not true.  My mom has severe anxiety.  It is a mental pain that is practically physical for her.  And she has to dump that pain somewhere.  But why on me?  She is smart enough to know that there are other ways to deal with her pain.  She could see a psychiatrist or a counselor, talk to a minister, take the anti-anxiety medication that has been repeatedly prescribed.  There are all kinds of ways mom could deal with her mental anguish that don't include dumping it, with hatred and vitriol and nastiness, on to me. 

The thing is - it's a two-way street.  Mom can't dump her anxiety on me unless I accept it.  It's time to put up a "No Dumping" sign and stop letting her transfer her bad feelings to me.

One of my brothers is a real no-nonsense guy.  He has raised three sons and has been through it all with them.  He has no sympathy for crying, whining, drama, etc.  And after me, he is probably mom's least-favorite kid.  He just won't coddle her or even acknowledge her tantrums and crying and complaining.  I need to be more like him.

Thank you for all your help, Psuedonym.  If your mom was still here, I would swear sometimes we are talking about the same person. 

[Boat Babe]

Hey Sneezy. It might be worth examining your role in this dynamic. We persist in a behavior because we think, on some level, that we will get something positive from it. That's how our brains work. What is keeping you locked in this toxic dynamic with your mother when you could, as your brother has done, just go "meh" when she unleashes the drama and vitriol? It will be something or you wouldn't put up with it. May I suggest that you are still, at a very deep level, hoping for simple maternal love from her? This is entirely understandable given you never had it and the wound was inflicted in childhood and has been there, causing you pain, for a very ling time. That and the fact that she has trained you in this role. You may fear that she will be even less of a mother to you if you don't act as her emotional lightening rod. You may fear further loss.

Forgive me if this isn't accurate or appropriate.

[treesgrowslowly]

The thing is - it's a two-way street.  Mom can't dump her anxiety on me unless I accept it.  It's time to put up a "No Dumping" sign and stop letting her transfer her bad feelings to me.

One of my brothers is a real no-nonsense guy.  He has raised three sons and has been through it all with them.  He has no sympathy for crying, whining, drama, etc.  And after me, he is probably mom's least-favorite kid.  He just won't coddle her or even acknowledge her tantrums and crying and complaining.  I need to be more like him.
 

Hi Sneezy,

I'm sharing a podcast interview with Lindsay Gibson - author of "Adult children of emotionally immature parents" where she talks about setting boundaries with immature parents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJhavfjr0E

This interview helped me to understand why it is not realistic for me (a highly sensitive person with emotional intelligence) to "force" myself not to let others "dump" their anxiety on me. The problem is that for some of us, if we go into that "teflon pan" state (that your brother is good at) it can feel so hard. There were some emotions that rose up for me, that I was not prepared for (because I did my VLC and NC with my FOO way before anyone was talking about these things in places where I could find this info!!).

I don't deny that your "no dumping sign" is an important step. I guess I just want to share what I've learned recently about this whole scenario with the parent who tries to dump their anxiety on us.

I'm not suggesting you will have the same experience. But before I started learning from Lindsay Gibson, I really had a hard time seeing this stuff for what it is. So I share in the hopes that it encourages you to appreciate your hard work to address the challenge you face with your mother trying to dump her anxiety onto you.

You wrote that you want more of that skill he has - and that is understandable. Not absorbing our parents anxiety is hugely valuable for us.

I guess what I am trying to talk about, is the part of my healing work where I realized there was no shame in being more sensitive to parental anxiety, than the siblings who were not as affected by it as I was. It was a process for me to accept this about myself.

In a way, our siblings sorta just "have" this skill, meanwhile we have to cultivate it. Does that make sense?

The challenge is to be who we are - and know why we lack certain skills. I was not taught how to deal with mom's anxiety and her emotional maturity. As Lindsay Gibson says in this interview "no one taught us" how to do that.

What I love is how Lindsay Gibson focuses on how to improve the interaction with the emotionally immature parent. It isn't about fixing the relationship - she says that is probably not realistic.

In several interviews Gibson explains why the emotionally immature parent / person dumps their anxiety and negative emotions on others. This info has helped me a lot.

Someday, you may have to manage the finances for someone who doesn't understand you (or appreciate you). The practices that Lindsay Gibson suggests have given me so much help with this type of scenario. I hope they are helpful to you as well.

Trees

[Sneezy]

What is keeping you locked in this toxic dynamic with your mother

BoatBabe - Your post is spot on (and not inaccurate or inappropriate at all).  This is the big question.  Why do I keep going back?  What is it that I want?  I think that I care very much what other people think of me.  I probably get something from being seen as "the good daughter" by my friends and relatives and others.  And I suppose I also want that mother-daughter relationship that I've never had with my mom.  I had it with my grandmother (my mother's mother) and I have it with my daughter.  But I can't have it with my actual mom, and there must be a part of me that still wants it.  It's going to take a while for me to work through it and realize that it's time to give up and grieve that loss of what I was hoping for.  And it will be ok.  I have other relationships and other sources of fulfillment in my life.  I'll probably never stop wishing, at least to some extent, that I had a relationship with my mom, but it's not meant to be.

Trees - Thank you for the recommendation.  I am going to check out Lindsay Gibson's video today.  It sounds like something I need to hear. 

[Boat Babe]

What is keeping you locked in this toxic dynamic with your mother

BoatBabe - Your post is spot on (and not inaccurate or inappropriate at all).  This is the big question.  Why do I keep going back?  What is it that I want?  I think that I care very much what other people think of me.  I probably get something from being seen as "the good daughter" by my friends and relatives and others.  And I suppose I also want that mother-daughter relationship that I've never had with my mom.  I had it with my grandmother (my mother's mother) and I have it with my daughter.  But I can't have it with my actual mom, and there must be a part of me that still wants it.  It's going to take a while for me to work through it and realize that it's time to give up and grieve that loss of what I was hoping for.  And it will be ok.  I have other relationships and other sources of fulfillment in my life.  I'll probably never stop wishing, at least to some extent, that I had a relationship with my mom, but it's not meant to be.

Trees - Thank you for the recommendation.  I am going to check out Lindsay Gibson's video today.  It sounds like something I need to hear.

Hey again Sneezy. Clearly the big one to shift is the mother hunger you feel - I so get it. As to the other worry, I feel this is easily dealt with. Be seen as an autonomous, compassionate adult woman with a very difficult mother and who takes no shit from her. There are lots of ways to be seen by others and I would put dutiful daughter way way down my list personally. That doesn't mean you don't do the right thing by her, but you have boundaries and you don't let her damage your peace of mind. 

[Psuedonym]

Hey Sneezy,

Just an observation, but for me personally it was never ever a deep desire for some better relationship or approval that kept me going for as long as I did. I know that's very true for a lot of people, but can't relate to that one. What I really, truly wanted in my heart of hearts was to never have to deal with her again. That was a heavenly thought to me. FOG is a hell of a thing though...it's probably why it's in the name of this site! In my case, and I highly suspect in your case too, I was so brainwashed that I really didn't believe I had a choice. I watched my dad spend his whole life (and eventually the end of his life) feeling the same way, which is not a great role model to have. My DH used to comment on how miserable he looked being around her, it's one of his primary memories of him. When you are subjected to decades of 'BUT YOU HAVE TO!!' and "WHO ELSE IS GOING TO...." along with one manufactured crisis after another that only escalates until you intervene, you really start to believe that to be the case. I'm sure it's a type of Stockholm Syndrome.

Two things you said in that post that really reminded me of my own experience. The first is that you said you were worried about what other people would think. That one really resonates with me, and you can bet that it comes from the 'everybody else's daughter is ....' or 'I talked to .... and their daughter is doing (fill in the blank here) for them and so is everybody else's. This particular flavor of PD I think is an expert of dumping a tremendous amount of toxic and guilt and shame onto their children, so much so that the thought of 'what other people think' fills us with terror. Healthy people with boundaries don't think that way, in fact they really don't concern themselves too much with what other people think.

The second thing I would point to is that when you contemplated the thought, just the idea of going NC for a second, your mind immediately jumped to it isn't right to go no contact with a child or an adult who is unable to care for themselves despite the fact that you KNOW that isn't her situation. As our great friend Woman Interrupted would point out, if you were abducted by aliens tomorrow, she would definitely keep on having access to meals, healthcare, transportation and companionship. The idea that she's helpless is just more brainwashing.

Anyway, that was a long way of saying that are many reasons that could keep you going back for more abuse from someone who isn't going to change. For me it was the ol' FOG, and it was that I had to get past before I could drop the rope.

As always: 

[Sneezy]

Be seen as an autonomous, compassionate adult woman with a very difficult mother and who takes no shit from her.

I like this!  It is certainly something I can aspire to.  I'm tired of being a door mat.  Time to be an adult!!!

What I really, truly wanted in my heart of hearts was to never have to deal with her again.

This is exactly how I feel. 

Mom and I are never going to have the relationship I would like, i.e. a mutual, adult, two-way, caring relationship.  And we are never going to have the relationship that mom wants, i.e. someone to absorb all her negativity so that she can pretend to be happy in front of everyone else.

I haven't talked to mom in two weeks.  I texted her and told her that if she has an emergency, she can call my husband (this was his idea).  I know she has a couple trips coming up - she can take a taxi to the airport.  There is absolutely nothing she needs from me.  I am just trying to keep my distance from her for now.  At some point, I suppose DH and I will give her a call and/or take her out to lunch.  But I will not be alone with her.  And I am done being her taxicab, grocery delivery service, therapist, nurse, etc.  As you said in a previous post, "no contact" isn't the best way to describe what I'm doing.  It's simply the consequences of mom's actions that will dictate how we move forward.

Psuedonym - I used to wonder if my mom and Negatron were the same person.  But now I have a different theory.  I think you and I are the same person and future-me/you is telling past-me/you how to deal with our mom.  It's just uncanny how similar our moms are/were.   

[Psuedonym]

I love that idea, Sneezy/Past Me! You stay strong and I'm very proud of you!!