New to the forum. This is only my second post. My husband of 15 years has recently been diagnosed with OCPD. I myself have PTSD from abusive relationship in the past.
Husband tells me things like "you're stupid," "you're a failure," "I'm embarrassed of you," "you're a horrible mother," ETC. He says them when he is angry and then takes them back when he calms down. He claims he has no control over what he says, and our marriage counselor is leaning this way too. I have a hard time buying that because I'm the only one he speaks to like this. He holds down a high level job and I've never heard him speak to anyone else in that manner.
I want out. This is bringing up a lot of trauma from my past and I had promised myself I would never again be in an abusive relationship.
Our counselor tells us that this kind of lashing out at me is one of his compulsions now and it will happen again, even if he is able to take control. That he will have "relapses" where he says things that cut me to the bone.
He accuses me of giving up, of wanting out when he needs me most, and of not keeping my vows "for better or worse."
Am I wrong to want out? Is it wrong to not want to live like this, even if he can't control it? I'm feeling so much guilt for wanting to put myself first. I'm also extremely concerned about the environment my children are growing up in, but then he flips that around too. Saying I will mess them up by divorcing him. He has threatened to tell them that mom is leaving dad because dad is sick and mom doesn't want to deal with it. I told him that was manipulative but he denied that too.
I feel like I just need someone to tell me that it's ok to get out. That I'm not crazy for wanting out. That it is best if I get out with my kids.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts
Welcome to Out of the FOG!
I'm sorry you are going through this. I don't think it is wrong to want out, I think it is healthy. If he would hit you physically, would you stay? The most likely answer is No. Being verbally, emotionally, psychologically abused is not any better, it leave deep wounds. These inner wounds are just as valid as bruises, broken bones on the outside. Just because other cannot see them, doesn't make it any better. This article might help you, even if it is about children https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=13369.0
If your DH is serious about getting better, he will do this work for himself, not for you, just like one goes to physical therapy after a broken bone for oneself and not ones spouse. If he does it for you, IME it is the wrong motivation, as it will flag rather sooner than later and possibly be held against you: "you made me", "you are making me sound awful, when it is your fault". And like you say, he can control it when necessary, to then unload on you. "For better and worse" didn't mean you put your health at risk and that is what you are doing.
If I see it correctly, you have kids. From my perspective, this is an unhealthy environment for your kids to grow up in, most likely also not an environment where they feel safe in even if your husband doesn't attack them. What does it tell them, what do they learn from your H treating you this way and you letting it pass?
Some people can work it out, it very much depends on where the PDperson in their life is on the spectrum, how much abuse has accumulated, others choose to leave to protect themselves and their children, to get their lives back. There is no right or wrong path, there is only your path.
Make sure to check out the Toolbox at the top of this page, and maybe read under "Personailty Disorders" the Top 100 traits or the information about OCPD. These things have really helped me together with this amazing community.
Oh dear. I am so sorry you are facing this.
Whatever comes next, I think it is so important to acknowledge that you are trying so hard to be loyal and kind. In our rush to validate your desire to move on, don't let us ignore your kindness in really trying to hold on. It is a mark of kind humanity.
I believe it is important to say why you want out. It isn't to punish him. It isn't to assign moral blame. It is to protect yourself and achieve an environment in which you and your children can thrive. Given that purpose, his inability to control himself is a feature, not a bug. Especially when someone cannot control themselves -- cannot help but to predictably hurt us -- it is essential we take steps to protect ourselves and provide an environment in which we can thrive.
If you had a pathway to making him better -- a short, secure one -- of course you'd take it. Just as you'd invest the energy to nurse him to health after an accident. When you determine there is no short and secure pathway to restoring his emotional stability and healthy behavior, it is reasonable to end your investment in a false hope of recovery.
The kindest, most loving thing you can do is that which preserves you and your children in a healthy thriving state for all the wonderful people who benefit from you being in their lives. We must never, in my opinion, throw ourselves on the pyre of someone else's destructiveness.
None of this tells you what to do. We cannot tell you what to do. But I can tell you this, in boldface:
It's ok to get out. You're not crazy for wanting out. It may be best if you get out with your kids.
It is OK to get out of a verbally abusive relationship. In my opinion verbal abuse is just as damaging as physical and it can have long-term affect on your self-worth and psyche.
I would start by learning all you can about his diagnosed disorder. My exBF was diagnosed as having a Borderline Personality Disorder. At the time I thought it was something that could be treated with meds like an antidepressant. FYI BPD cannot be treated with meds. I had no idea what kind of ticking time bomb was inside him. The more I learned about BPD the better I understood his (irrational) behaviors and (harmful) actions. And I became better at protecting myself from his verbal assaults. I realized that if I stood up and left the room he would stop yelling. I had spent sooooo much time trying to keep him calm. Walking around on eggshells so I didn't 'activate' his bad side that I lost sight of ME. I was too involved with trying to please a person who will most likely NEVER be happy. It was exhausting.
One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was to write in a journal. Journaling gets all the thoughts that are swirling around in your head down on paper and you can think clearly afterwards. I would write how I felt. I would write about all the awful things he would say and I would focus on what I knew was true. I am not a b-word or a c-word. I am a kind-hearted generous person who has co-dependency issues and is an easy target for someone who is angry and needy.
I am sooo sorry you are struggling but I promise when you make changes that are in your best interest you will feel better. Focus on YOU. What is good for YOU?
Quote from: Igloo7 on January 22, 2019, 01:07:28 PM
Husband tells me things like "you're stupid," "you're a failure," "I'm embarrassed of you," "you're a horrible mother," ETC. He says them when he is angry and then takes them back when he calms down. He claims he has no control over what he says, and our marriage counselor is leaning this way too. I have a hard time buying that because I'm the only one he speaks to like this. He holds down a high level job and I've never heard him speak to anyone else in that manner.
I want out. This is bringing up a lot of trauma from my past and I had promised myself I would never again be in an abusive relationship.
Our counselor tells us that this kind of lashing out at me is one of his compulsions now and it will happen again, even if he is able to take control. That he will have "relapses" where he says things that cut me to the bone.
Quite frankly, his behavior is abusive regardless of whether or not he has a disorder. If he were in your shoes how would he feel getting put down and yelled at? Try recording some of his episodes and then playing them back at one of your therapy sessions.
Quote from: Igloo7 on January 22, 2019, 01:07:28 PM
He accuses me of giving up, of wanting out when he needs me most, and of not keeping my vows "for better or worse."
Am I wrong to want out? Is it wrong to not want to live like this, even if he can't control it? I'm feeling so much guilt for wanting to put myself first. I'm also extremely concerned about the environment my children are growing up in, but then he flips that around too. Saying I will mess them up by divorcing him. He has threatened to tell them that mom is leaving dad because dad is sick and mom doesn't want to deal with it. I told him that was manipulative but he denied that too.
I feel like I just need someone to tell me that it's ok to get out. That I'm not crazy for wanting out. That it is best if I get out with my kids.
Telling you that you are not upholding your vows and that he would tell the kids that you don't want to "deal" with his OCPD is blackmail. He should be working his ASS off to keep his OCPD under control in front of you and your kids.
If you decide to leave him, see if you could tell your kids together in the presence of the marriage counselor. That way your husband can be held accountable and not drag you through the mud.
You are absolutely not abandoning your husband by leaving; you are setting a positive example AND providing a better life for yourself and your kids.
I would also suggest getting your own therapist on the side since the marriage counselor you have now doesn't seem to be very neutral. What does the marriage counselor have to say about you dealing with all of this?
Igloo, while my h is undiagnosed, I'm pretty sure he has ocpd.
The unreasonable rules/expectations and the emotional abuse when we fail to meet expectations is very painful.
It's so hard to know what the right thing to do is...leave, etc.
Mine is more covert... I do think that if he blatantly called me names that would be a dealbreaker for me.
I've come close to leaving for less.
I can't tell you what it means to have support from people that have been there. Thank you everyone for the thoughts and kind words. I really do feel like I'm going crazy sometimes, thinking in circles on this. My priority has to be my children and myself. And I'm just trying to do what is best. It feels like there is no good answer because either way someone gets deeply hurt.
Pepin,
I have asked husband if he would want our children in relationships where they talked to the way he talks to me. Of course he says no. And honestly that is one of my biggest fears. I don't want them to think that is what Love looks like.
In regards to the counselor, he is not taking a firm stance one way or the other. It feels like one week he is focused on what I'm doing wrong and one week he focuses on what DH is doing wrong. He is very clear, though, on the fact that these outbursts are part of the PD. He also has said that it could be worse because at least DH is willing to seek treatment. While this is true, it did make me feel minimized.
Quote from: Igloo7 on January 22, 2019, 01:07:28 PM
Our counselor tells us that this kind of lashing out at me is one of his compulsions now and it will happen again, even if he is able to take control. That he will have "relapses" where he says things that cut me to the bone.
This statement from the counselor is very bothersome to me. You should not have to accept being lashed out at, it is
ABUSE plain and simple. The fact that he is able to hold a good job and does not act this way toward others tells me that he is able to control it, he chooses not to simply because he feels entitled to abuse you.
If you have not already, I would advise reading "Why Does He Do That, Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft. However, please be sure not to let your husband know that you are reading it. When my BPDxh found my copy he launched into a rage at the fact that I considered him angry, controlling, or abusive.
I would also advise that you find another counselor, if not another marriage counselor then at least one you can see on your own, preferably one who has experience with personality disorders and/or abuse.
While I did not have children with my x, I did decide for myself that this isn't what love is supposed to look or feel like. His anger and manipulations had started to affect not only my mental health, but my physical health as well...I had headaches, heart palpitations, I couldn't eat or sleep, and I'm pretty sure I was on my way to an ulcer.
The fact that he stated that he would not want your children to be treated the way that he treats you means that he knows his behavior is wrong. And he chooses to behave that way in spite of that knowledge. And it seems to me that he is saying things about not keeping your vows, because he knows that such an accusation will make you feel guilty. You are not considering leaving him because he is sick, you are considering leaving him because he is abusive. And you are certainly not crazy for wanting to leave.
Quote from: Igloo7 on January 22, 2019, 01:07:28 PM
Our counselor tells us that this kind of lashing out at me is one of his compulsions now and it will happen again, even if he is able to take control. That he will have "relapses" where he says things that cut me to the bone.
This is exactly the guidance many of us would provide on this forum: personality disorders are broadly associated with one or another lack of control, and are very difficult to "cure," though they can often be managed with some success.
Your counselor has described to you the reality you confront. That's her job and she seems to have done it well. It is unclear from your post whether your counselor believes or suggests at all that
you ought to endure further mistreatment because your husband has reduced culpability.
By definition, your marriage counselor is not
your counselor. With no disrespect to your marriage counselor, now that you have a diagnosis of OCPD and an unfavorable prognosis, it may be time to get a counselor of your own.
You seem to be struggling with the moral implications of a personality disorder. A car could be careening towards you because of the assassin behind the wheel, or because the driver has had a medical emergency and is slumped unconscious over the wheel. Your need for self-preservation is exactly the same in either case. I am not telling you to run-for-the-hills. Or to stick with it. But please observe that the degree of harrassment or shaming you experience -- and the destruction it causes -- is precisely the same, regardless of an underlying disorder.
I'd encourage you to consider the degree to which his negative behaviors can reliably be curtailed, and the frequency and severity of potentially lapses, and determine an appropriate path forward based on these practical, measurable matters. The disorder he suffers from -- while an important consideration -- is not dispositive in either direction.
Hi Igloo7,
I'm so sorry for your situation ... glad though, you've found the forum.🌷 It has been such a huge support for myself, and I hope it can be the same for you.
A lot of excellent sharings here. I'm in the thick of it myself, and have been helped a lot. Gonna share my experiences on a couple of topics you've brought up ... as for me, it always helped to read what others have gone through. No need to support me on any of this, just hope it can help you to understand your own situation. :-)
Journalling...
I was blindsided by my stbex pdbf (diagnosed bp, textbook npd characteristics). Never in my life come up against anything like it. Had been trying to work out what was going on for a few years. Even after a few years of reading and researching, it wasn't until I started journalling that the fog I was in started to clear, it was a HUGE help to me. I highly recommend it. I had no confidence in my own thoughts and feelings ... and he was always there to substantiate that. Journalling was the tipping point for me, I believe ... that made the shift to finally give me the confidence to start seeing what was really going on.
Counselling...
As for counselors ... like in any profession, and I mean no disrespect to any of them, there are good and not so good ... or maybe better said, some are not as knowledgeable in dealing with these kind of people. My pdbf and I have been through 2 ... and I am with a 3rd now by myself.
First counselor - was good, but I couldn't see what was going on yet. After just a couple of visits he wanted to focus a bit on my bf's past/childhood. I think he had a very good idea of what was going on. My pdbf did not like him. Sessions ended.
Second counselor - was completely unprepared and not able to handle what was going on. He lectured a lot on the niceties of relationships and give and take, but it became more and more frustrating as he wasn't really paying attention to what was going on.
By now this was a few years in, and I was doing a lot of my own research and learned that some counselors are not knowledgeable/prepared for the manipulations and tactics of npds etc.. I was also getting very worn down in having to make all the plannings regarding these appts. The very last one with my pdbf, I was walking on eggshells, reminding him ever so softly a couple times as the day approached ... and the night before ... 'just a little reminder hunny'. Long story short, day came, told him it was time, he had a meltdown, got him a coffee and treat on the way, he raged the whole drive there, tried to supplicate him ... horrible session with counselor. Looking back on it, I think he played both of us during it.
That was SO wrong of your husband, to bring your children into it. My Mom did that kind of thing. It also seems he can pick and choose who he directs his outbursts at, namely you.
Reading through the comments, there's some awesome support and suggestions.
Find time for yourself, some 'me' time ... little or big, I know it's tough with a family ... even a diverted drive home from work or shopping, just to sit and 'breathe' - relax, can make a big difference. When I was first coming Out of the FOG, it felt uncomfortable to even be away from him. Just trust that you deserve to focus on yourself and the children.
Take care and welcome! 🌷
Thank you everyone for all the amazing support and helpful suggestions on how to take care of me. I appreciate it all and welcome any further recommendations.
In our last session, the counselor wanted me to see that because there had been good times that I could hold on to those to get through the bad times. It just didn't sit right with me in terms of the verbal abuse.
DH is also coming back again and again to the idea that if I didn't have depression and PTSD, getting past this would be a non-issue. In a way, that's true but not in the sense he is implying. If I hadn't been through that I may be willing to accept the abuse longer. But I'm not willing because I've been down that road and I still deal with the ramifications of that.
I got out after 24 years with a 7 year old daughter. Now happily remarried. When I was in your spot, that would have sounded to me like "I found a unicorn a flew away to the moon!".
It seemed beyond impossible and implausible.
Of course back then that was not my goal. I had to save my life and I could not see how I was going to do it, but I realized that didnt matter. I had to do it anyway. I realized it wasnt right I should suffer like this at the hands of someone who didnt love me and didnt want to work things out and didnt want to get better.
BTW the moment I began to withdraw he became more aggressive, so be prepared.
Quote from: Igloo7 on January 22, 2019, 01:07:28 PM
He accuses me of giving up, of wanting out when he needs me most, and of not keeping my vows "for better or worse."
What about HIS vow to honor and cherish? It appears that he's the one who's broken vows here.
I feel like a hypocrite (because I haven't yet taken my own advice), but it's not okay for a spouse to treat you like that. These people can stop if they really want to, but don't. It's no way to live, and IMO it's an unhealthy example for kids. I've read several times that some groups do not recommend joint counselling where abuse is involved, because the abuser can manipulate things and just make the situation worse. I'm no expert, but that does make a lot of sense.
I suggest any therapist you see has experience in dealing with someone who is controlling, has anger issues or NPD or some sort of PD experience. If not, it is common for the person without PD to feel attacked or for the abusive behavior to be almost encouraged. I had a therapist validate that my husband called me a whore and slut when he was angry "because he was hurt". when I used the word bully in our session, I was the one reprimanded by the T.
Your husband's behavior is abusive. Period. Your children see it, or will see it. You are not wrong to want to leave. His threats are intentional- to control what you do with fear. As an adult who grew up in a divorced household, you won't screw them up by giving them a SAFE place to live in. Research daughters or sons and narcissistic fathers. There are some really good articles about how it affects children.
I have read and re-read each response here. They are all so thoughtful and insightful. And quite frankly so much more helpful than anything I've tried so far to navigate this situation.
I feel validated and supported. So thank you all from the bottom of my heart. My marriage counselor won't use the word "abusive" but agrees DH says toxic things. Quite honestly that doesn't sit well with me. It is abusive and I so appreciate the support I am finding here that backs that up. I guess I'm still coming Out of the FOG because sometimes I still have a hard time believing my own instincts on this.
My children have always been what I worry about most. I want them to have a stable home, even if that is a one-parent household. DH has tried to convince me that they are not touched by the arguments we have, but they know something is wrong. They have all asked me why I'm sad and what's the matter on numerous occasions. And quite frankly, until recent months DH had me convinced that it was all in my head. I was too sensitive or just couldn't handle things. There is another post on this forum that talks about not being able to forget what you've seen "behind the curtain." Thats how I feel. I can't go back to everything being OK because I seen and heard what he is capable of.
Igloo, I'm wondering too how old your children are and if your h is really only verbally abusiveto you. I know that in my case I was often able to take a lot of it myself, but when he turns that behavior on our son it has alwaysreally bothered me...and he has and does.
11JB68,
They are between the ages of 8-12. I have never heard him speak to them the way he speaks to me, and to my knowledge it has never happened. I do worry, though, what will happen when I am not immediately available for him to dump on. I worry that without me as a buffer, he just might.
Igloo, I'm sorry for all that you're going through and I strongly feel it's not right that the counselor told you that you'd have to deal with these angry outburst because your H can't control himself. I don't buy that for one second. You don't deserve this abuse regardless of what trauma has happened in your past. Nothing makes this ok.
In my case, when I began to see what was going on and started using grey rock and medium chill to survive his insults and rages, stbx was completely lost. When he saw his words were no longer having an effect on me, he did start treating the kids the way he had been treating me. I struggled with leaving because I was a huge buffer between his behavior and the kids and I was able to stand up to him when he started raging and insulting the kids. I think this is why I stayed with him for so long, to protect the kids. Looking back, I wish I had left sooner.
I read on this forum in another thread somewhere, that a marriage counsellor's goal is to save/work on the relationship. That usually, they assume both parties are wanting to save it. So everything they try leads towards that goal. They don't work on divorce.
If you've already decided you need to leave due to the abusive nature of your husband (or even just considering it), then a marriage counsellor is unlikely to help you.
This MIGHT explain the mixed messages you're receiving from your counsellor. (I'm only guessing, you know your situation best)
I would completely recommend you getting your own counsellor whose goal would be to help YOU, not save the relationship. I'd also recommend journaling, it helps to keep your feet and head stable and in reality.
BTW when my upd ex tried to tell me I was breaking our weddings vows by wanting a divorce, I told him that he already broke our vows. How? By expecting me and the children to constantly prove our love to him by allowing him to hurt us over and over again. He told me that I was hurting him by NOT allowing him to physically beat the kids or sexually and verbally abuse me whenever he felt like it.
He seemed to equate marriage to slavery. That he was our Master and could treat us however he wanted. That our weddings vows gave him this right. But abuse is still abuse, and it is destructive to all involved.
It is even abusive for children to witness arguments amongst others let alone their parents, so NO your husband does not even have that.
To me, it also seems like your husband long since broke your marriage vows with you.
You deserve better. :bighug:
Hi there. What a horrible situation you are in and we all understand. I agree completely with what the other people have said.
It is so difficult to see clearly when we are in the fog but one way of helping yourself is to imagine your sister or best girlfriend in your situation. She asks you for advice. What do you tell her?
There's your answer honey.
Another thing, concerning the children. A dear friend of mine endured 17 years with a very abusive man who, imo, had a raging PD and her eldest son is now abusive towards her. It's an absolute nightmare for her and she wishes she had got out earlier before the damage was done.
I wish you all the best xxx
D.Dan- Thank you for the perspective on the marriage counselor. I hadn't thought of it that way and it does make sense. I'm sorry you experienced the same type of negativity about wedding vows. Thank you for sharing that. It really helped me to feel like I'm not alone.
Boat Babe- The thing that scares me most is the thought that my children would find his behavior acceptable and carry that forward in their own adult relationships. I will do anything to avoid that.
Thank you to everyone for the support and thoughtful advice. It has really been invaluable to keeping my head about water. The sort of last straw for me happened last week. During a counseling session, my husband lost his composure after I brought up my concerns over his recent financial choices. He accused me of being unfaithful, said he had been checking on my cellphone usage, questioned our children, and then said I wasn't confident enough to even be a good liar about it all. Of course there was nothing to find on the wireless account, so he demanded to have access to my social media. He lobbed insults at my parents, who have done nothing but love and support us. He asked the counselor if he should have me committed for my depression. Many other insults along the way.
It was disastrous and cut me to the bone. BUT, he did it in front of a 3rd party this time. I have a witness. And he managed to sever the last bit of doubt that was holding me in this marriage.
I'm focused now on the best way to navigate divorce and moving forward.