Out of the FOG

So yesterday I went to see a solicitor, told her everything. Today I went to see a doctor, told her everything. When both were showing how horrified they were and showing real concern about the severity of the abuse, I could just not take it in. I was just telling them about my day to day life. Then it hit me when the doctor says she has to report this to social and then also strongly suggest she also reports this to the police. I am not sure I really was ready for this, but hey there is no backing now. Social will come knocking and stbx will absolutely lose her head, I am actually quite worried about what she will do. In certain ways I hope she attacks me and give me black eyes and then I can call the cops, but at the same time I obviously don't want her full blown raging. But when sitting there talking to the doctor, I felt like I was outside my body looking at some bad movie where I was the star act. I couldn't really believe I was actually talking to someone about the abuse.

Wish me luck, this will get ugly.

That's adreniline and cortisol. Your body getting ready for a fight and possible trauma. One effect is dissociation, where you feel somewhat outside of your own body. (It could also manifest in feeling like the world isn't real). I have experienced that and it's scary but also a good thing because you are on full alert when stuff gets real.

One foot in front of the other. You can do this.

When is your next solicitor appt? Can you move it up? A phone meeting, even?

Get your questions in order. Can you take the kids or at least SG before filing? What other questions do you have?

Even if you can't use it in court consider recording even more now that stuff is about to go down.

You can do this.

It is definitely something pumping round in my blood as I am constantly shaking. I got myself a big whiskey to be able to sleep last night. No difference today, same shakes. Realised a couple of times yesterday I lost my memory completely and didn't really know what I was doing. Also almost no recollection of what was talked about with the doctor, it's like it's just a blur.

Had a missed call from the police this morning, looks like they are taking it seriously as they left message they want to talk to me ASAP.

I know stbx will try to lie, manipulate and put the blame on me. She will probably bring episodes of when I had fleas, but that's many years ago and I was deep into the FOG believing her reality. But I have reached the end of it, I have nothing to lose as nothing can be worse than it is. If we both lose the children so be it, they are better off without her and that's all I care about right now.

My solicitor will be away next week, when she is back we will push on. If it escalates and something needs to be done before one of her colleagues will be able to step in. My first thought when speaking to the solicitor was to try to just get everything done as soon as possible and as nice as possible. I don't think I can do that, I don't think I can trust stbx to have the children any prolonged times. She is unreliable and her mood turns as you flick a switch. She bully the kids, turn them against each other and hits them in her uncontrollable rages. All denied afterwards of course.

I am not sure I am strong enough for this, I am on the verge of a collapse.

Hi EM and here's a big cyber hug for you. You, and the children, are in the heart of the shit storm and it's just awful.

You need to get all the emotional and practical support you can during this critical period. Your children need you to stay upright through this so that you can support them, so self care as you go through this.

Remember to breathe. Lots.

EM, you have been incredibly strong the last, how many years?! You just don't realize it, because it felt more like survival.
Take BB's advice, breathe. And something different now is that you have people, IRL, who are willing to help you. You are no longer alone in this fight. It will get uglier, but you have to get through the storm to get to peace.
Look at it this way, what you are going through now is toward a goal. There is an end to this, where maybe there wasn't one before. Keep your eye on that.
There's a book that I have heard recommended, call Splitting by Randy Kreiger and Bill Eddie. I don't know if I spelled those right, but it is supposed to help you through this process.
Be strong, as we all know you are.
Sending you good thoughts!

EM, I have recent, first hand experience with telling people  how bad things have been. I shook for a while, too.
It's terrifying.
I'm proud of you for speaking up, for seeking help.
Wishing you continued strength.

Thank you all so much for your kind messages.

Police never called back today, but Social Services did. Spoke to a lady about this, was a bit tricky as had to be in the garden pretending it was a work call as the rest of the family was home. I think, but I am not sure, that they could be of good help backing a non molestation order, if I get them on my side. If not, they could probably be a difficult obstacle. I am going to have a meeting with someone from there next week, that will be so much better as I am not the best at phone calls. Stbx tried some kind of love bombing today but I just felt disgust, I am in the same house but that just because I have to. If I can keep everybody involved on my side, the Police, Social Services, Doctor and Solicitor I might be able to stand strong. Oh, next team member is going to be a Therapist but not made that call yet. I suppose having arranged a Solicitor, reported her to the Police and got Social services involved in 3 days is an achievement.

I am still on edge, but at least I know I have started the journey and I wont look back.

Two big ones today assuring me I am doing the right thing....

1) GC who didn't speak to me this morning, told me to go away when she did and just avoided me came to me talking as soon as STBX left the house with SG to go to the shops. We had an OK time talked about things, but as soon as STBX came back she stopped speaking to me.

2) Was out with SG most of the day for a sports even she was part of, then came home for lunch and then out again just us. She told me she loves me so much and she never loved anyone as much as she loves me.

With these 2 facts, I know I am doing the right thing. I already knew but this really confirmed it.

I am getting so tired of this, but I am so glad I am Out of the FOG and I am so glad I have been journaling for the last 2 years and taken voice recordings for the last year. Everything just went to much yesterday and I told her, this is it, we are divorcing. I have had enough. Does she accept it? Of course no. First thing she did was telling the kids dad is splitting the family up and start crying in front of them and telling them she got married for life and bla bla bla. Today, she is fighting for the marriage and has invented some weird love bombing phase. I have told her about 10 times to stop it and it wont make a difference what so ever. But she has convinced herself that her suddenly behaving, laughing, being good to me, the children and son on will save the marriage. What makes me so sad is that I know its a charade and that if she was like this all the time it would have been exactly how it should be. But as I told her, its to late, it will take you 3 days max before you turn on me again.

Breathe, deep breath, read the journal, listen to the voice recordings and nothing has changed. NOTHING has changed. Oh yes it has actually, I spoke to the police yesterday  :wave:

You are doing the right thing.
And you know what? Isn't love bombing more pleasant than the alternative? You know it isn't going to change your mind, but maybe take it for what it is... a little break.
I hope you're doing ok. Stay strong

Love bombing is certainly more pleasant than full on abuse but it is a total charade, as we all know. It is manipulative BS to keep you trapped so she can milk you for Supply and maintain her status. You are entirely right to grey rock the love bombing.

Keep your eye on the prize.

I assume love bombing is nicer than the follow on screaming and baiting, however right now I prefer the silent treatment. But, it's sickening to see what she is doing and how she is reacting. For every thing she doesn't get from me she quickly reacts in a bad way, but then come back trying again. Yesterday for example she tried to engineer something through the kids, I told them no and I heard her slamming something down in the kitchen as a reaction. Today she came into tell me something she wanted praise for, I didn't praise her so she stormed off closed the door behind her without a word. But apparently, she is trying.....  :doh: She really has convinced herself that by her deciding to to try again, we are trying again. Absolutely no respect for me saying no I am not doing it. I told her we will divorce, then I told her nothing has changed, then told her again nothing has changed, now I just let it be. I keep doing MC and GR and only talk about practical things that adulds must talk about, such as the childrens arrangements. Problem is that by me talking about things that regards the kids she think I am speaking to her, and therefor must have changed my mind and therefor not getting a divorce  :doh:

The end game is near.

I booked something for me and the kids next week, something I know they love. I knew from the start it would be difficult with GC not only because she sides with stbx but also have some other issues. But SG was so excited dancing around about the trip, this was yesterday. Today she told me she doesn't want to go, asked her politely why but said it is OK if she doesn't want to go. She hid her face in the carpet refused to say and told me she really love to go but can't.... Came with first excuse she is going on the black friday sale, next was going out with friends, then she just left me and have sat with stbx for the rest of the evening.

I must end this now, and I must end it fast.

Now she really got me into fighting mode. She might have thought she was clever, but fuck me she got me going now. Told me I owe her for 15+ years of marriage, so I am apparently not allowed to divorce her. I want to tell her this, that's fine and let me repay you during the next 15+ years and treat you as you treated me and let's see how fun that is for you.

I am angry now and I am ready to fight.

The logic is absurd  :stars:

So I guess you owe her for her suffering 15 years with you. And the payment she wants is 15 more years with you.

Ok, if being married to you was so awful that you owe her something, one divorce freeing her from misery coming right up.

She is still moaning about my GR and MC but still smear me to the kids as soon as she is in a different room. It's just staggering how little she actually understand, I told her over and over again that the main reason I want a divorce is the back chatting to the kids. It's so sad to see a Narc in action when the FOG has lifted and realise you use to believe their shit.

This is the danger e.m.
No-one knows how to push your buttons better than her, and if all her tricks to get you to change your mind don't work, then she will use all her tricks to get a reaction out of you.

As Square said, that logic about the 15 years of your marriage makes no sense, and it won't make sense in court either, but if you react badly to it, you can be sure she'll be using your reaction against you, either in your home, or even in the courtroom.

I know it can't be easy, but it's really important you respond calmly, and don't allow her to get you to react.
If you remember that she's probably purposely trying to provoke a reaction out of you for her own agenda, then maybe it will be easier to not give her the reaction.

From this point on, she will be pushing all the buttons she can, trying everything she can to get you give up with the talk of divorce or to react in a negative way so that she can use it to her advantage later, so it's important that you see that early on and prepare your responses in advance.

Stick to the facts, stay logical and calm, don't say any more than you have to in these exchanges, don't over-explain yourself (will probably sound like an apology to her), and be prepared for her to use absolutely anything you've ever said to her in all the time you've been together.
There will be no limit on what she will bring up, so try not to react no matter how ludicrous her words are.

I feel for your kids having to go through all this, but from one of your other posts here, it sounds like you already have that covered, and are being the calm, understanding parent for them. They will see that eventually.

I don't know if you've checked out a YouTube channel I recommended a while back, but this guy went through a divorce from a Narcissist, and had kids caught up in the middle of it, and has a lot of useful info on his channel.
I believe he has a weekly phone-in too, and maybe one-on-one talks too (not sure), but I think it will help with what you're about to go through.

DSD (DadSurvivingDivorce)
https://www.youtube.com/c/DadSurvivingDivorce/videos

Thanks for your reply Simon, but to clarify, yes I got anger, but anger inside me that K will use to GR and MC her and to get out. I didn't react, but it made me more determined to get out as fast as I can.

OK, an OK day today. Spent almost all of it with SG and her having a match in her sports. Stbx hates it when we do the sports as she isn't involved. Was an incident with one of the other dads there, I suspect he is a PD (the radar is out there all the time now). But at home GC still ignores me, trying to frame me and trying to get me into the bad books. Stbx behaves like normal, reasonable OK today but nothing more. Still determined to press ahead with this as there is no alternative other than death.  Had this thing booked next weekend with the kids but GC wont come, SG also said no in the end. I asked her politely why she didn't want to come and I told her I really don't mind, her first answer was she felt weird in her stomach about going and that if she goes he mum (stbx) would be upset with her. Told her I don't mind what she does, but a big tick again for me in the why I am going ahead with this box.

So, I have decided I will go away on my own next weekend. I will probably instruct the solicitor to start the proceedings already next week and inform stbx when I am away. Then I have to take the decision if I should just stay away from there on, go back home and risk the fury or if I can get a flat or whatever and try to get my stuff over to it.

I have had enough.

EM:

What did police say?

What did you say?

Please continue documenting everything.  Asking kids to choose between their parents is abusive.  Putting them in the middle is abusive.  Hitting them is abusive.  Screaming and raging at and/or around them is abusive.
Remember to remain the consistent, calm and level parent, always.

All the stupid things the PD says, to trigger you, are worthless stupidity.  Don't listen to her.  She has no power in the Courts.  The Judge will decide everything so please don't listen to the stbxPD.

Know you will get stronger with distance from stbx.

Know there will be waves of shock that come and go.  You'll have ups and downs.....till this ends.  Don't fight them.  Try not to fear the lows, but understand this is part of the process.  Expect and trust your recovery......the anger brings energy to help you keep moving, ime.

Tell the kids everything will be ok.  Mom will be ok....things will be different, but ok.  Mom is responsible for herself and emotions.... every adult is.  Mom will be fine and it's not the kid's job to worry about any adult.  Kids have their own jobs...,grades, sports, chores and discovering their passions.  That's it and it's inappropriate for mom to ask the children to involve themselves in the adult conflict or caretaking adult feelings.

Don't speak with emotion.....rather express regret the children are asked to think about things they shouldn't have to think about.  Let them know you won't ask them to choose.  Ever.  You love them no matter what, always and forever.  You believe in them and want them to know they have permission to ignore adults making sad choices.....I wouldn't finger point as no adult should ask the kids to choose it take sides.

I hope you have some 3d support, along with your team. 

The stbx will begin escalating her bucking bronco manipulations....being nice, angry, calm, raging in order to wear you down, Rob your energy or bait you into behaving irrationally so she can point at it and play victim.

You cannot allow her to bait you.  Please resist giving in to any demands she makes, bc her promises will be hollow and false.  She'll never follow through and she knows you will, so resolve to let the attorneys come up with plans, solutions and agreements.  There's nothing to gain from listening to the stbx.... you're better off limiting exposure to her, as you can, ime.

Separation will be next.....you will begin feeling like your old self....you will heal.  You are your best resource right now, do be very gentle and kind to yourself.  Know you can do this......many here will council you on next steps, settlement discussions and ending the divorce with economy of motion, expense and trauma to you and your children.

There will be trauma, but your fighting to give them some normalcy and a safe place to land.  Accept you can't fully protect the kids....accept you're mitigating harm as best you can and it's enough.

Be patient and continue building your team.  The kids need a good therapist.  You need a good T. 

I'm so proud of you, EM.  Truly.  You're doing a good job navigating your divorce.  There are no shortcuts.  Accept that and stay buckled in. 

This too shall end.

Thanks hhaw, very good advice as always. You people on here really are gold dust and even though I don't know you you are my to to people in this. I have no one else to talk to, at least no one who fully understand this. Stbx have gone out on here own, so had a casual chat with GC, all she is trying to do is telling me to be nice to stbx and question me what she has done. Tried calmly to tell her that what mum has done is between me and her and not something she should be involved in, then she started shouting at me that I don't know what stbx has done and I am pathetic. Before I would probably have tried to get her round and explained, but there is no point. I have to believe she will see it in the end. Told her I love her whatever is going on.

Regarding the police, they have the report, they put it down as Coercive behaviour and it's up to me to tell them to act on it. If so they will arrest her and interview her. But, the process will be slow and take time and most likely end up with word against word. Word against word with a manipulator like her is not something I am looking forward to. The police suggestion was to live apart, but they can't force her to leave as they need her being charged in court, and that takes time. But if she attacks me again to call them straight away and have her arrested. Police suggested if I didn't want to go ahead right now that it might be less evidence needed for a non molestation order that the solicitor would arrange. But again, I need to speak to my solicitor about this. My preferred option would be to leave as soon as possible and start all proceedings away from stbx influence and manipulations. To see her and having her baiting me is emotionally draining and taking to much energy away from the real battle.

Oh, and her latest is that she has promised the kids she is redecorating their room and I need to help.....

You have the evidence, I suggest going forward with the charges, particularly if she continues being abusive..... particularly if your attorney feels you can prove your case.

At some point you can tell the kids why you're separating......but not to debate.  Just to clear the air and provide clarity once you've filed and explain your decision to the kids. 

It's likely the kids already know what their mother's done to you.  Hearing you say it out loud, sans anger.....solidifies your position as worthy of safety and capable of setting and holding boundaries, ime

I'm sorry the stbx weaponizes the children against you.  That's the way it is.  At least for now.

I really like the book The Parallel Process by Krissy Pozatek, LICSW, bc it gives you a very concrete structure for dealing with problematic relationships with our children.  It demystifies and simplifies, provides a skeleton to build on, ime.  I found my notes recently.  I highly recommend it.

I'll say it one more time, resist allowing stbx to cross your boundaries, assault and abuse you.  At a point you'll be holding her feet to every fire, ime. 

Document, keep your cool, report and be ready to lodge that police complaint to begin your stand.

Once you do......have a plan for leaving. 

You're doing really well.

Thanks, hhaw. I suppose I feel bad about pressing charges, don't think I can do it whilst living in the same house unless she go on to do a full on assault. But I am tired, I am so tired right now. I am tired of no adult conversation, I am tried of having to implement MC and GR all the time, I am tired of having to stay 100% focused, I am tired of when I do the smallest slip up and actually make a 2 word reply that she tries to jump on me thinking I am back as her supply. I am tired of someone denying the fact I told her I am going to file for divorce and keep trying to involve me in activities with the entire family. Right now she is alternating between playing happy family and being the victim.

I had the discussion with SG yesterday that she need to accept mum and dad will split up, she said we don't we just try to be nice to each other and all will be fine. Makes my hearth bleed as that is what I have tried all these years but it all being sabotaged by stbx. SG brought up happy memories, yes some of them were happy, but what SG failed to include was the extremely unhappy moments during those happy memories caused by some minor incident that made stbx lose her shit and kick off with me. It breaks my hearth to do this, I don't want to split the family up, but I have to. I have to do this to save myself, to save the kids, maybe even to save stbx. 

Big steps forward today, I paid the solicitor on account and have got an initial consultation with therapist booked. Going to email solicitor tomorrow and find out next steps. Scary but the alternative is worse.

Good for you, EM.  There will certainly be rough times ahead in the short term, but rest assured that life will be so much better on the other side.  I can't even begin to describe how much happier I am now, you'll get there too.  Take things one day (or even one minute) at a time, you'll get through it.

I think the heat might be turned on very soon. I am not surprised as stbx has never accepted to not get her way. Apparently, SG overheard stbx and GC talking where stbx where telling GC about lawyers, courts and different scenarios. I would not put it passed her to as soon as she realise the divorce actually is happening lodge an accusation and involve GC in it. GC has been manipulated against me for the last year and at the moment would eat out of the hand of stbx. I am buckling up, this will be a ride, I really hope I am strong enough for this.

Quote from: escapingman on October 27, 2021, 02:50:11 AM
I am not surprised as stbx has never accepted to not get her way.

Yep.
The emotionally arrested child inside a PD does not like or even understand "No", and just like the toddler that they are emotionally, they will tantrum.
Unfortunately, being an emotional child inside an adult body means that they will do a lot worse than stamp their feet and cry, like a toddler would.
They see no limits in what they can and will do.

But you're getting everything ready in the right way, and you're not giving her reasons to blame you by reacting.
You got this!  :thumbup:

Another thing I should mention - one great thing about involving lawyers is you can step back and let them do the fighting for you.  Let them take that weight off your shoulders, make all the discussions happen through the attorneys and remove yourself from the back and forth.  Don't speak with your stbx directly, that just pulls you back into the circular nonsensical arguments.  Make her put it out in public for all to see. 

You may be very surprised at what happens.  Remember, if she makes accusations there needs to be proof in order for it to stick (at least in my jurisdiction).  If she tries this, it may end up benefitting you.  That's what happened in my case.  My ex spouted a bunch of crazy stuff, her lawyer quickly went into damage control mode and guided her towards a fast settlement.

Looking back at my divorce, the early days felt extremely stressful but in the end it was just a bunch of barking from her attorney that ended up being inconsequential.  I found that the courts have seen it all before, and they typically pay little attention to the party that is shouting loudly with nothing to back it up.  Let your lawyer decide which arguments from the other side hold water, they'll know how to react to things.

And above all, keep your head up and be there the best you can for the kids.  There will be damage control you have to do for them to counter mom's craziness, the best thing you can do is be stable and make it obvious you're not abandoning them.  You won't be at your best, but there will be better times ahead when you can be a better father than ever before.

It all kicked off again yesterday, GC started shouting at SG again at bed time. Went up to calm it down but was then shouted at by GC as well ending up with PD STBX turning up shouting at everyone for not getting on (she is the one always backing GC against me and SG). Managed to calm it in the end when PD STBX had left for her own room. This morning PD comes into me asking me if I am still in a bad mood. Bad mood? I wasn't in a bad mood I just tried to calm the kids. Anyway, I told her a short yes and she stormed out ranting about how miserable I am and how can I be so nasty etc. Later on I went in to GC who was playing the piano telling her how good it sounded, she immediately shouts at me for not having said hello to her (this is one of PD's manipulations having made GC think I hate her). Telling her calmly she was behaving badly yesterday but just got shouting back and then her being backed by PD. Went back to my room and PD came after screaming at me to stop shouting (I was sitting quietly), then when calmly trying to tell her to stop she storms out start ranting to GC I need to be in rehab. Rehab? For what? Anyway, I got so angry so had to leave the house.

Spoke to solicitor who now want to speed this up and start the proceedings. Solicitor will warn PD STBX to not continue her abuse and to not discuss the divorce with me, if she can't do this she is going to take court proceedings to have PD STBX removed  from the house. Solicitor thinks I have strong enough case and evidence for having that accepted.

Still trying to calm down from this latest drama. Can't even begin to think how this would have turned out if I wasn't Out of the FOG.

Keep recording, em.

Stbx has telegraphed to you......hers will be an offensive defense of accusations against you to include addiction and abuse on your part.  I assure you, there will be more and you will be as shocked as your solicitor when they come out, ime.

THATs why you hold the PD'S s feet to every fire proactively.... So you don't appear to be a vindictive abuser filing charges against his victim when she " finally speaks out."

Please understand you're shortening, simplifying and mitigating harm when you expose the stbx's conduct proactively and with enough documentation to stop the war PDs wage against accountability.

Being outed is considered an act of war by them.  Contacting a solicitor, telling the truth, protecting yourself and the SG will be considered acts of treason to a PD and please know the more truth about a PD is exposed, the more energy the PD puts into destroying your mental health, physical health, relationships, standing in your community
and
most
if
all......
your credibility.

Always resist losing your temper and mind, bc THAT'S what the PD will be pointing to and she'll believe that's the problem too.

Keep recording, for goodness sake.

Stay consistent.  Feeling level will come and go.......but remain consistently calm and rational.

Don't prioritize protection the PD from consequences.  Please.  You can SAY you'd like to, but then DO what you can to position yourself in the best possible way to bring peace and calm into your lives with economy of motion.
And resources.
And time.
And trauma.

Good luck,em

I agree. I have no legal knowledge but your stbx is not going to hold back in any way. She won't be constrained by any worry about what's fair, what's true, what's reasonable. She will burn you down. You will be constrained by the truth. Your goal is not to burn her down but just to protect yourself, and by extension, the kids. But you will lose if you try to take it easy on her because she will not do the same.

EM:

One more thing about holding the PD accountable.......it's my belief WE, as the people who marry and have children with them, tend to be adverse to conflict, IME.  We rarely, if ever, stand up to them, hold thm accountable or otherwise OUT them in socieity and to friends and family members, bc we KNOW it would escalate the trouble we're already struggling with, IME.

Getting over the aversion to conflict, setting a good plan in motion with the help of attorneys and solid supporters......sticking to that plan when things get crazy...... THATs the way out,IME.  We discard any dreams of safety we had for our children and get busy hammering SAFETY OUT for our children, IME. Can't do that by going under the conflict, or over the conflict.... we have to go THROUGH the conflict to get there and acceptance of that is good for our emotional health.

We wouldn't get so far into the PD nightmare IF we had put healthy boundaries in place and enforced them THE FIRST TIME they were stomped on.

When you're alone at night with your thoughts...... research healthy boundaries, co dependence and the book THE PARALLEL PROCESS to keep yourself steady. 

The above is DOING what you CAN DO in the moment, which is a healthy coping strategy you can model for your girls.  Do what you can, then put that story on the shelf.... go back to seeking and/or cultivating some joy with your children or for yourself.  Plan a meal you love.  Cook it.  Invite the kids to help, but release any expectations around it.  Go about your plans and try to enjoy them as best you can..... as you can.  The PD's words hold no power over you IF you put on an imaginary helmet and keep them OUT.  KNOW you have a plan and are working towards resolution..... the PD's words are chaos and confusion and  she will never speak truth, peace or surrender to you.  Any mention of those things are likely to be ploys to get you to give up something or sabotage your standing in your legal case.  Just keep moving along and get separated as quickly as you can.

Worry worry worry, all the time, is an unhealthy coping strategy I certainly employed during my divorce, and I had 2 daughters I was trying to protect also.  Breathe escaping man.  When you're worrying out of your head.... breathe and put your hands on the place in your body where the tension and fear live.  Name them..... hot?  Pinching?  Pressure?  Searing?  Breathe into that discomfort or pain 10 times..... like you're filling a vase, from the bottom of your lungs to the top...... slow and steady.... concentrate on the pain then check it. Repeat till it's gone or stops feeling better. 

Focusing on a place in your body where you feel neutral is good IF you can't focus on the pain.

If yoou can't focus at all, bc you're so upset, push on a door jamb with all your might for a while..... and breathe.  The fight or flight mind NEEDS to act.  It honestly believes it's under life threatening danger..... so PUSH for a bit, then go bak to breathing into your pain again. 

Think of yourself as making good, better and best choices ALL THE TIME.  KNOW every best choice will get you and your children throuogh and out the other side of this more quickly.

Remember.... when you try to spare the PD or protect her.....
you're being cruel to yourself and your children.

EM:

I found my notes from another poster on  the Parallel Process.....

here's one thing I believe will help you get through this.....

"Resisting being dragged into responding is the only thing you can do, as othr posters have said. This book, though referncing dealing with difficult children, is mostly about how we choose to change and respond differently ourselves, IMO."

YES! 

I know you're overwhelmed so will post other notes later. 

Thanks for your amazing support!

Stbx went out with the kids today, she came home with GC leaving me a note GC had been misbehaving and therefor needed to stay in her room until tea. Then stbx left again. So I went upstairs to G to see what was going on, this is the girl that in front of stbx was screaming at me she hates me, tells me she swore at SG and after a bit of talking she also admitted to have pushed her PD mum twice because she was bored. I calmly told her she should apologise to them both when they come home. She agreed and then we had a cuddle and I told her I love her more than anything and that does not change when she shouts at me. I got a genuine smile from her and then an embarrassed "go away" from her. That made my day.

We have a strategy for the divorce, my solicitor is really good so far and is pushing me and is stopping me from being to kind. We agreed stbx will be served the papers, she had given me the draft ones and only need to confirm and tell her when. Stbx will be told to not talk to the children or me about the divorce, she will be told to not talk badly to me in front of the kids, and she will be told to accept the "mild" accusations in the paper. If she doesn't, we will take it to court and get harsh. My solicitor is convinced we have enough evidence to have her evicted, but I just want to give her a tiny bit of rope so she can hang herself. I am not sure if she will go all out war, or just crawl into a ball and be the biggest victim ever. I think and hope she will do the latter, but I am ready for fight. 

EM, several thoughts to share with you.
I'd like to second Pushit's advice to step back and let the lawyers do the arguing for you. I've had to work through terrible guilt when doing so. (It's so hard to let go of all those years of isolation training.) But it's been very effective.
It sounds like you're doing right by your daughters. Holding them accountable for their behaviors. Not bad mouthing Mom. Reassuring them that you love them.
Hhaw's advice hasn't steered me wrong, yet.
Sometimes, ok often, I feel like the things I'm doing aren't enough. This is in all areas. Not enough GR. Not enough MC. Not enough support to girls. Not enough protection against retaliation. When worry starts to take over I sit down and write it out.
I'm worried that X will happen. These are the things I can control. These are the things I can't control. Then I step through which of the "can control" things I've done to help prevent X from happening.
And, often, I come to Out of the FOG to take strength from others going through similar situations.

Thanks Lauren, that is exactly what I am doing. For the last 2 weeks since I took my final decision I have only made very few and limited conversations with her, mostly one word answers. I have reiterated we are getting a divorce and pointed to her behaviour when she has pushed to a reason. I have left it there, nothing more. I don't intend to argue anything with her - I am done with that. I did that for 15+ years and only got me close to a madhouse. Next week STBX will be served the papers, they will also tell her to under no circumstance talk to either me or the kids about the divorce and to not talk badly about me to the kids or to abuse me anymore. She will also be told that all communications regarding this will be handled by the solicitor. If (when) she fails this the plan is to get hard on her. That is a game the solicitor will play better than me.

EM:

The stbx will likely be pathologically unable to:
1.  Resist talking to the children about it the adult conflict, ime.

2.  Settle the custody/divorce out if court.

I write this so you look down the road with your attorney, remain proactive in the ways you can AND so you avoid getting your hopes up, dashed, up, dashed and so on, bc it's devastating to one's mental health, ime.

BTW, what are the consequences for ignoring the Court's directive to refrain from including the key D's in the adult conflict?

Think about holding the stbx accountable every step of the way, without restraint.  You're mitigating harm to the children ...... that's what you talk about.  The kids the kids the kids.

Remember to speak about the stbx with compassion, always! 

Hhaw,  I think that it will be a BIG help in getting stbx removed from the house. My solicitor semester pretty confidential we already have enough evidence, I am sure we will go down that route as she just can't keep herself calm.

Tired,  I am so tired. I could stay in bed all day every day, I have to drag myself out in the mornings. I think the last couple of weeks have mentally drained me, but I am now in the complete opposite to before. Before when I did nothing everything nust kept going as always and the abuse continued. The new do nothing defaults to divorce as stbx will be served the papers and everything controlled by solicitor. So happy to be in this position, but scared shit at the same time.

Just noticed something very interesting, my stbx uNPDw is in a good mood. She came in to me and started chatting about somethings, I gave her one word answers making it clear I was not in the mood to talk to her and frankly is in a very bad way (caused by her). She completely ignores/missing how down I am and runs off singing and being generally happy. I really have come to realise that if she is in a good mood and have got her supply from something other than me, she doesn't need me to give her supply and she completely misses if I am happy/sad/angry/whatever. I am just bracing myself as she will receive the news from my solicitor later today, just not sure which person she will turn into, the angry blamer, the victim or the denier. So far she has been alternating between all 3 when I have reiterated we are getting a divorce, but this could really push her into any direction. I really don't want to be here witnessing this, but my solicitor have said it's important and that I am recording any abuse following this as that could have a major impact on the next steps.

Wish me luck, I am shitting myself right now.

EM:

No matter what, you hold ....
Hold.....
Hold.....
And just keep holding.

Your STBX will show you all of her faces, tricks and manipulations.  Like a bucking bronco, she'll switch up when each fails, likely escalating as she goes, ime.

You stay focused on documenting and moving through the process without creating ANY confusion.  You ARE the calm, consistent parent who never speaks ill of stbx.  YOU are rational, very level adult steering your children's lives into calmer waters.

Hold...... don't react to the stbx's bait.

Hold..... don't allow her words or actions to trigger you.  Focus on responding according to your mission and not the PD's mission.

Hold......you apply the letter of the law and hold the stbx accountable for her words and actions.....all of them.

This too shall pass.  Try to see your situation through our lenses.....and hold.

Quote from: escapingman on November 01, 2021, 05:55:20 AM
I really have come to realise that if she is in a good mood and have got her supply from something other than me, she doesn't need me to give her supply and she completely misses if I am happy/sad/angry/whatever.

Yep, no-one matters but the PD themselves.
That's something they are very good at hiding (no-one would stay with them long if they didn't hide that fact).

I remember when my Dad was ill, I was working a 10 hour shift, and travelling 30+ miles to work and back, so a long day, and went to see my Dad on my way home.
By the time I did get home, my BPD ex gf didn't ask me how my Dad was at all that night, or any time after that.
Just wasn't interested because it wasn't about them.
(Just a further note; A couple of days later, in work, a colleague asked how my Dad was. I looked at her with surprise because I'd been with my BPD ex gf long enough to forget that people can be that nice. I'd come to expect nothing from people, because that's what I was living with, which is very sad).

And from a conversation that I had with a friend the other day, I realised that she never, ever asked me how my day was when I got home.
Ever!
But always had a go when I didn't ask her how her day was.
Totally self-absorbed.

Wishing you luck with what happens later when the Divorce is served on your stbx uNPDw.
I would put money on her acting pretty bad when she realises that she hasn't worn you down, and that the divorce is real, but you never know.
PDs are hard to predict.
There will be raging, manipulation, smearing, hoovering, offers of marriage counselling, and much more, but who knows what order they will be in.

As hhaw says, keep your eye on the goal, and hold on.
Think about how much better things will be for you this time next year.
(And make sure you're recording, secretly)

Good luck.

Good luck. I can only imagine the stress you're feeling right now.

So she either found someone else or she thinks she just one-upped you somehow.

We are all sending you positive vibes!
As HHaw says....breathe.
There's nothing about anything stbx says or does in the next few days, weeks, months, that changes anything. Keep focused.
You, your kids. That's all that matters.
We'll be thinking of you, good luck. You got this!!

And breathe....

I couldn't have guessed how this would turn out anymore accurate than I did. First she came running questioning me if this was a joke. Then she broke down in an Oscar worth self pity performance being the worlds biggest victim. After the initial victim charade she slowly started love bombing me and then mixing them both. When this didn't work she suddenly slipped showed the true her and accused my solicitor for being a liar, she is going to take me to the cleaner before she quickly reverted to being the victim and to love bombing again. I have been doing a lot of crying, it is not easy to see someone break down like that. But I am incredible thankful she did a 5 minute nasty spell as that made me feel better.

Sad bit is how detached from reality she is, she said she disagree with what the solicitor said in the letter and I won't get her to agree to anything just because I have a fancy solicitor. The reasons stated for divorce were very mild and standard but she just could not see it. Solicitor said in the letter that if she didn't agree with the statements we will point out much harsher reasons.

Let's see where this ends up, hopefully she seek advice from a decent solicitor who will advice her to just accept it.

You got through that step. Well done.

I'm sure it's hard  :'(

Where is the logic in this? Obviously I know there is no logic, but she just told me she will fight for me and the marriage as she loves me, but if I go ahead with the divorce she will fight me in court and take me down.

Ditto on Square. 

Keep up the good work, following the specific advice of the solicitor and focus on the end goal. Will be keeping you in thought and prayer.

SoT

Logic?  None at all.  Imo, the latter statement does truly peel back and expose the true intent of her internal drives, and the emptiness of the prior statement.  The long term past for you is the truth, and then also going forward, her leaves will now show their true color, as they lose their supply. 

Keep up that thick skin and a tender (yet determined) heart moving forward (as the tears of raw reality reveal).  You have been given a lot of good advice on this thread, so re-reading them frequently may be a helpful stimulant to press on.  In addition, for the real truth refresher of your life with your PDw, you may find it beneficial, imo,  to review your Out of the FOG posts from the start, which can also be another forward motivator.

SoT

Quote from: escapingman on November 01, 2021, 04:36:21 PM
Where is the logic in this? Obviously I know there is no logic, but she just told me she will fight for me and the marriage as she loves me, but if I go ahead with the divorce she will fight me in court and take me down.

My exPDw literally told me the same thing after our divorce was final, she said she wasn't giving up on our family and was going to fight to save it.  As we all know, actions speak louder than words.  All it took was me telling her no on a small issue a few days after that, she went straight back to hatred for me.  It can feel more comfortable when they hate us, just because we know that's what really lies underneath. 

In your case it's a mix of love bombing and a threat, just to get her way.  Neither of the outcomes your wife mentioned are realistically going to happen.

She's going to try anything, positive or negative, to get a reaction.
As soon as she sees something that gets to you, whether it's your sadness during her pity play, or your fear during her threats, that's what she's going to home in on.
That's where she will see the crack in your armour, and her way of breaking you down.
And let's face it, despite the abuse and us knowing their behaviour patterns, we're still human, and it still hurts us to see them like this.
And they know this.

She's probably been using the same tactics for the duration of your relationship; if good doesn't work, switch to bad.
Back and forth until something works.
And she probably doesn't understand why it's not working.
It always has before.

And without wanting to make her sound bad, as we're all people on this tiny blue marble, she acting on primal defence mechanisms.
If she really is Personality Disordered, then she's emotionally arrested between a toddler and an adolescent, and we know what they are like when they don't get their own way.
There's no rational behaviour, just  temper tantrums and I love you/I hate you, until they get their way.

As Dr. T once said, you can put a child that's having a tantrum on the naughty step, and discipline them. But when that emotional child is in the body of a full grown adult, you can't, and it's a very dangerous position to be in.
I'm glad you have a good lawyer, and have plenty of evidence of her behaviour, because when she realises her normal tactics aren't working, the allegations will probably start.

Hopefully she will stay pretty lucid and just accept what's happening.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you mate.

Escaping man I admire you so much right now. My now ex left me with no job, no car, no license and no home. Actually the home she is in is still mine but the police said there's nothing I can do to get it back and she refuses to remove my name from the lease. I'm starting to agree that my children would be better off away from her even if I didn't get them, but I just can't stand the thought of them being in foster care. My oldest, who I'm afraid is getting the brunt of her abusiveness looks so wore out now, and depressed. The GC is so angry at me all the time when she comes over, and my oldest daughter basically lives with me and has since the break up. I filled out an application for legal aid today, I hope I can get somewhere with them. I too shake so badly these days, and on a number of occasions lost time. She put me through hell for 15 yrs. I know she is telling her therapist that I was the one who was abusive, manipulative, etc. And she claims to be making all these lists to take to court when SHE calls them on me. I wish you all the best on this road we are sharing wherever it may lead us.

I am worn out, absolutely worn down to the ground. Since she got the letter she has alternated between being a victim, love bombing, threatening me, having remorse and so on circling it all. She promise she will never shout at me again (as if) if I give her another chance, if  don't give her another chance she will contest the divorce and drag me through the courts. I so want to believe she could change, but I know she can't. I am going to try to just settle down a bit and then think about what to do next. I really don't have the energy (right now) for this to drag to the courts, at least I can't live in the same house as her if that happens. Also, I really need therapy to start to help me with all this - but it's a month to the first appointment. I don't really know what to do short term to stay sane, long term is clear. I will need to play this sneaky, and I really don't like doing that. But, it's her or me and I need to look after myself (and the kids).

And thanks for all your messages, I am sorry but I can't address them specifically right now.

Can you leave the house to work, laptop to wifi hotspot in coffee house or library or something?

I understand you need to remain in the house but that wouldn't preclude you from leaving for the workday.

I agree with Square, find an excuse to get out of the house to clear your head, if you can.

You could go for a run, or go to the gym.  I can tell you some of my best workouts were the times I was incredibly frustrated with my (then) wife, just channel all that frustration into busting out some reps and getting a good sweat on.  Another idea is get out with some healthy people and interact.  Go to a happy hour with co-workers or reconnect with old friends.  Pay attention to how healthy people interact and that will help remind you why you're not staying in an unhealthy situation.

You'll get through it, just keep putting one foot in front of the other.  In the end, everything coming from her is just noise, try to think of it as that.

e.m.
Sounds like she is going through the whole gamut of emotions and tricks to wear you down, and it sounds like it's working.

From what you've said over the last few months, she doesn't stand a chance in court, and as advised by your solicitor, you have a lot more to tell the courts if you need to.
She is testing the water.
She could try and drag it through the courts, but what with?
If you give up now, then I can't see you ever getting away, and I wouldn't like to think how bad her behaviour is going to be once she's got you back under control.

One thing I would advise very strongly against (and I say this because you mention that you're going to have to be sneaky).
Don't give her false hope just to give yourself breathing space.
If you give the impression that you are softening your stance, even just a bit, just so that you get through the next month, only to go full steam ahead in a month's time, it's going to get very messy.
She will rage worse than ever, and she will use the fact that you did that against you.
But more than that, it's not a nice thing to do to someone, no matter how disordered they are.
Maybe that's not what you meant by sneaky.

Take the advice of the above posts and get out of the house for a few hours a day at least.
I used to go shoot some pool for an hour, go to the Gym for a couple of hours, and sometimes just sit in the park and read.

Thanks for your input, I know I need to get away. It's a fine line, I need to try to keep some kind of peace in the house for the kids sake, at the same time try to control her underlaying rage. I am not going to cave in, even if I told her she got one more chance I know she would blow it by the end of next week. By sneaky, I just meant keep the plan but wait for her next rage. But I need some distance from seeing her go through all her motions on a daily basis. It really is sole destroying to watch some one behave like she has been the last couple of days. But, I need to give her a few days to calm down from her initial chock and try to make her next move calmer. The ball is currently in her court, she has a letter from my solicitor to respond to, either herself or by a solicitor she can find. I have told her nothing has change, I have not given her any reason to believe anything else (she is giving herself that).

Quote from: pushit on November 02, 2021, 10:37:01 AM
I agree with Square, find an excuse to get out of the house to clear your head, if you can.

You could go for a run, or go to the gym.  I can tell you some of my best workouts were the times I was incredibly frustrated with my (then) wife, just channel all that frustration into busting out some reps and getting a good sweat on.  Another idea is get out with some healthy people and interact.  Go to a happy hour with co-workers or reconnect with old friends.  Pay attention to how healthy people interact and that will help remind you why you're not staying in an unhealthy situation.

You'll get through it, just keep putting one foot in front of the other.  In the end, everything coming from her is just noise, try to think of it as that.

:yeahthat:

"Pay attention to how healthy people interact and that will help remind you why you're not staying in an unhealthy situation."

"In the end, everything coming from her is just noise, try to think of it as that."

Pushit,

Those are two great truths; not only in the tumultuous times like escapingman is working through, but for me as well, at all times.  Im sorry you went through the divorce wringer as well in your past, but your shared experiences as well as the others here who have emerged out the other side, are gold nuggets of insight and wisdom.

SoT

EM:

Your STBX will continue to cycle irrationally through emotional channels, like a gator rolling, thrashing and switching directions randomly, ime.

My T said....."it's what PDs DO.". At the time, I was in a divorce and my T was so tired if my failure to understand the PD's behaviors weren't personal......it was just st business as usual for my STBX. 

Please know......things will get crazier by a lot, ime.

Please know you have no control over what the PD is going to do.

Please remember you made a solid plan with your solicitor.  Do not stray from the plan!  Esp when you feel confused and list and are spiraling .....
STICK TO THE PLAN.

THAT is how you'll get through this!

The PD will begin offering you more things she knows you want and needed all these years.  Please don't engage, bc she's listening intently to you now. She's going to zero in on your exact desires and offer to grant them.....like a geni.

Please......
Work, spend time with the kids, work out, meditate/breathe/write out your feelings, read them, write about them some more till they're clear and you have absolute clarity. ......and keep breathing.

DO NOT engage the stbx......
Just focus on self care, the kids, details around the divorce you CAN do something about and
Stick
To
The
Plan .

I can hear your fatigue.  It's how these things go, ime.  You get worn down then see settlement as the "easy" way to end your struggle.

THAT is a trap the PD is setting for you.  She will make you believe she'll end the divorce without trouble UF UF if you only are nice to her, go to therapy with her, have sex with her, but it's a trap.

Please know trial prep is necessary to get through this.

Do not stop documenting ever.

Prepare for trial, set hearings and trial dates till you get your divorce filed, stamped and IN YOUR HAND.

Don't cancel any dates or hearings, even if the stbx promises something, like producing documents or agreeing to something without signing a binding agreement FIRST.

IME any settlement achieved was after I went through trial prep and was ready to go to trial.  Any attempts to settle were meant to drag out the process, make me poor and drive me into exhaustion so I HAD to drop the divorce....do not waste your precious energy on contact with the PD. 

A trial isn't a bad thing, escaping man.  We tend to think if it as TERRIBLE and terrifying, but it's often the quickest way OUT of divorce with a committed PD, IME.

Do not fear trial.  Instead, organize your evidence, keep it safe and don't let the PD know you're documenting and preparing.

Court goes well for those with evidence, the ability to manage emotions and the proper focus on mitigating harm to their children, ime.

PDs allege MANY things ...often scary things, but lack the evidence to prove their case.  Don't fear when the PD begins lobbing legals back at you through a solicitor of her own.  This will happen.  It's ok.

She might hire a PD.  She might convince a solicitor she IS a victim.  It doesn't matter as
Long
As
You
Have
Evidence.  Ignore her.  Ignore her impending threats and allegations.  Please.

Limit or end all contact with the PD as you can manage.

Take your energy BACK.

Nurture yourself as you nurture your children.

Believe you can't save your stbx from herself, but your obligated to save YOU.

Fir your children, stop listening to your STBX.

Later..... you'll do it for yourself, bc your T will help you build yourself string again .

I promise.....this too shall pass, but much quicker if you avoid mistakes everyone on this board made.

You're doing so well, em. 

Know you're way ahead if where I was in your situation and pat yourself on the back......
then cross your arms and gently pat your shoulders.....like you're calming a child....left right left right.

You can calm yourself with breathing and patting shoulders and pushing on doorjambs if all else fails, but KNOW you're stronger than you think. 

You CAN get through the really tough patches.  Just keep holding and practicing new habits.....replace the old with the new, em.

We're here. 

Quote from: escapingman on November 02, 2021, 01:04:47 PM
Thanks for your input, I know I need to get away. It's a fine line, I need to try to keep some kind of peace in the house for the kids sake, at the same time try to control her underlaying rage. I am not going to cave in, even if I told her she got one more chance I know she would blow it by the end of next week. By sneaky, I just meant keep the plan but wait for her next rage. But I need some distance from seeing her go through all her motions on a daily basis. It really is sole destroying to watch some one behave like she has been the last couple of days. But, I need to give her a few days to calm down from her initial chock and try to make her next move calmer. The ball is currently in her court, she has a letter from my solicitor to respond to, either herself or by a solicitor she can find. I have told her nothing has change, I have not given her any reason to believe anything else (she is giving herself that).

Escapingman, you wrote "But, I need to give her a few days to calm down from her initial chock and try to make her next move calmer."

Since you only control yourself (+ equally full responsibility for your children) and not her at all, that sentence above is out of your control.  Therefore i suggest you only plan for YOU and the kids, always being prepared with the toolbox. So, it wont matter at all what your stbxw's emotional state is at any time and i wouldn't say anything to her about her 'to-do's' regarding the solicitors letter, as thats her 100% job to respond or not. 

All moves she makes from here forward may be key to how the divorce settles, so imo, provide zero input and let her fully 'adult'.  She made this bed herself, so let her lie in it. 

SoT

EM:

I hope you can allow your STBX to deal with her emotions, without your feeling responsible in any way.

As SOT said.....your wife made her own bed.  Let her feel the weight of her choices. 

Attempting to control or shield her is folly.  Always, ime

I just want to say:  What a treasure to have you people here (hhaw, pushit, others) who have walked this difficult path ahead of us, and can report back down the line with insight, wisdom and encouragement.  My hat's off to you warriors and im grateful to be here on this trail with you, and so glad you remain here, to come alongside your fellow comrades. What a blessing. 

SoT

Thank you so much for all your support, I really couldn't do this without you!

I have engaged way more than I wanted to today, but at the same time I needed to get some things off my chest. I am glad in some way as it proved she denied doing the things either in full, or saying she was only joking or one incident she actually apologised for (I think she realised she had to as it was such a serious one). BUT, she has got it into her head that just because I spoke to her, all is fine. Had to push her back again telling her she is jumping the gun and nothing has changed. But, she is not getting it. She leaves love tokens around the house, comes with wedding photos to show me, talks about growing old together etc. What makes me so sad is that this is how I wanted her to be and how she should be, but why did it take her to receive a letter from a solicitor to become like that? Obviously an easy answer for us in here, but even when I know her inside our, her IDD cycle, her love bombing, her abuse, it is flipping difficult still as my brain just want this to end and to believe her. But my cognitive dissonance has been weakened, I now know, it's not real. I have had a fantastic evening with the girls, for once STBX hasn't sent them against me. I know this is how life with them would be without her, that is how I want life to be.

I will give her to next week to respond to the solicitors letter, I have a trip booked I really need to take, thinking of pushing for it whilst in a different country. But until then, just try to survive and give her the chance to respond.

And breathe.....

If you give a PD an inch, they're going to take mile every
single
time.

Don't lose sight if that, em.

Ever.

And I must say the most disgusting thing of all is...... after crying, begging, having her life destroyed, so on and on and on........ hearing her laughing her head off watching the TV  :applause:

Quote from: escapingman on November 02, 2021, 04:04:38 PM
And I must say the most disgusting thing of all is...... after crying, begging, having her life destroyed, so on and on and on........ hearing her laughing her head off watching the TV  :applause:

Your day sounds like a classic episode of Warner Brothers "Sam Sheepdog and Ralph Wolf.' (YTube link below for easy reference if you desire)

"Goodnight Ralph...Goodnight Sam. See ya in the morning".

9-to-5 devaluation and an evening discard.  With a little 'lunch-break' hoovering idealization thrown in the mix for a LooneyTunes kind of day.  EM, my suggestion is put on your noise cancelling headphones and enjoy the silence, or watch a few oldies episodes of Sam and Ralph and see if you can work up just a little good-for-your-sanity chuckle at the similar ridiculousness that you are experiencing with PD 'lightning-round' IDD cycle behaviors.

https://youtu.be/jLhm5CyJ6JM

SoT

Quote from: escapingman on November 02, 2021, 03:10:23 PM
I have had a fantastic evening with the girls, for once STBX hasn't sent them against me. I know this is how life with them would be without her, that is how I want life to be.

Imagine a time in the future when this is every single day that you're with them.  No one around to intervene and create chaos for no reason.  No one to shout at you while you're disciplining your child, no one to shout at you because you and your child are joking around, having a fantastic time, and it's not about your wife.  Imagine watching a movie with your kids and the GC can't get enough snuggles from you.  Imagine having a blow up with your child, and then being able to follow up and talk it out to reach an understanding.  What you saw today is a blueprint for your future, and it will get so much better.  I can tell you that from experience, what I have today would never be possible with my exPDw in the house.

The best advice I can give is realize that all the noise you're going to hear in the next few months is just that, noise.  When I went through it I was unbelievably stressed out, couldn't even think straight.  Her lawyer was barking, my lawyer was intense (all lawyers seem to love the conflict unfortunately) and my ex was crazy making in all directions.  Looking back after almost 3 years since I filed, 95% of the bullshit in the first few months is now meaningless.  Everything I was stressed about then, now has zero effect on my life.  The key thing was focusing on the kids and a path forward without that relationship.  The accusations, the manipulations, man....I could tell you some stories.  My ex and her lawyer were spouting a lot of crap early on, but it all disappeared quickly.  Just stay strong and know the storm will pass. 

And a shout out to SoT, thanks so much for the kind words.  Also, right back at you brother!  You are a wise man and I've gleaned a lot of wisdom from you as well.  We truly have a great collection of people on this site, you all held me up when I filed and went through it a few years back.  I continue to learn from you all.  We are all in different stages of this, and I hope my experiences can help some folks in the same way that you all have helped me out.

Thanks Pushit, that is really encouraging. Her real problem is that she has been so bad for so long time now that even my cognitive dissonance has gone. This together with finding this forum has helped tremendously. All of us need to walk a path and if we want our life's back we need to walk it all the way Out of the FOG and stay Out of the FOG.  Again she thinks, or at least acts as if everything is good again, I am just doing as short answers and interactions as possible to not get the kids upset. I am going to try to make sure I am busy or out most of the days to come, at least when the kids are in school, when they are home it is easy to "hide" behind them to avoid any alone time with STBX. So today I will make sure I am in or pretending to be in meetings and then off to the gym.

I think I really need to have this initial emotional roller coaster settled down before I do any knee jerk reactions. It will get ugly, it will get very ugly as soon as she realise her old tricks doesn't work.

EM—I'm a little late to the thread, but wanted say,you have made some incredibly brave and difficult steps!

One of the reasons I've been less active here, is I finally have my life back.  I'm still co-parenting with my updxh, which has its own challenges, but the day-to-day aspects of my life no longer revolve around a PD person.

You will get to this point.  There will likely be lots of ugliness before you get here, but knowing that is a huge step in your favor.  I concur with proactively working on yourself.  It's ok to take some time to rest and reflect. This is an exhausting process. 

It may sound callous of me, but I eventually stopped caring at all about my updx's mood swings and reactions.  I wouldn't say I started disassociating, but I did start watching him as an interested, but non-emotional party, like a scientist studying animal behavior. I was able to somewhat pattern and anticipate the next moves in the "gator roll."  That in itself became a source of strength. I often was, and sometimes still am, shocked when what I predicted would happen actually does.

I filed for divorce at the onset of COVID lockdowns.  We ended up remaining in the same home for about 8 weeks after that. I've been through a lot of trying situations in my life, and I think that was the worst. Just know there are better days ahead. Focus on that, and know the only way to get there is through this harrowing part.  Others here told me the same things back then. It was so hard to believe them, but they were right, and here I am.  Eye on the prize, EM.

Quote from: escapingman on November 02, 2021, 03:10:23 PM
I have had a fantastic evening with the girls, for once STBX hasn't sent them against me. I know this is how life with them would be without her, that is how I want life to be.

Remember this!
I had an evening like that with my girls, just after I filed, at the height  of the PD crazy. I journaled about. I've held on to the memory and I revisit it often. That one night has carried me through some very tough times.
I, too, have made some decisions that were based on trying to control stbxh's responses. I didn't see them for what they were at the time. But they were things like waiting to give him time to calm down. Or pretending my focus was on one thing so he wouldn't go after what is really important to me. Be wary of those. We cannot control anyone, especially a PD.
A cliche that's helped me tremendously is "one day at a time". This is such a huge and scary undertaking. But I try to just focus on getting through today.
You can do this!

Again, thank you all for your support.

Stbx managed to get to me again just before a meeting, unbelievable what she is actually capable of doing to pretend she has done nothing wrong. Had to agree to whatever she said as one of us two actually work and had to attend this work call. Now she believes she is out of the woods  :doh: Have been watching her since the kids came home and having lost all feelings, good and bad, for her it's just so sad to watch. I am only trying to keep some kind of peace for the kids, but she thinks she can get reactions. It's a special event for one of the kids so I am doing my all to not upset this, but Stbx is not. I asked if I should order a taxi and for when, Stbx answers she will drive. Then 1 minute later she starts kicking off about she doesn't want to drive,  she isn't a taxi driver and she wants a drink. So I order the taxi I asked if I should order. She will not last tonight, she will find a reason to kick off and make a scene. But I have to participate for the kids sake, I don't want to be seen as the one not being there for them.

On a side note, for anyone normal. If your husband/wife asked for a divorce, would you feel happy if they stayed just because you threatened them to make your life hell if you left? Didn't think so.....

It's bizarre, isn't it? It's hard to grasp how NPDs don't exist in reality. It seems they are constantly shifting their view of the world and cannot grasp - assuming they even think we're real - that other peope exist in a steady world where years of abusive nehavior don't just disappear in the blink of an eye.

They seem to only perceive here and now, and how they can frame that here and now to their advantage. So she thinks she won? Well, that's sorted then.

Quote from: escapingman on November 03, 2021, 12:40:03 PM
Again, thank you all for your support.

Stbx managed to get to me again just before a meeting, unbelievable what she is actually capable of doing to pretend she has done nothing wrong. Had to agree to whatever she said as one of us two actually work and had to attend this work call. Now she believes she is out of the woods  :doh: Have been watching her since the kids came home and having lost all feelings, good and bad, for her it's just so sad to watch. I am only trying to keep some kind of peace for the kids, but she thinks she can get reactions. It's a special event for one of the kids so I am doing my all to not upset this, but Stbx is not. I asked if I should order a taxi and for when, Stbx answers she will drive. Then 1 minute later she starts kicking off about she doesn't want to drive,  she isn't a taxi driver and she wants a drink. So I order the taxi I asked if I should order. She will not last tonight, she will find a reason to kick off and make a scene. But I have to participate for the kids sake, I don't want to be seen as the one not being there for them.

On a side note, for anyone normal. If your husband/wife asked for a divorce, would you feel happy if they stayed just because you threatened them to make your life hell if you left? Didn't think so.....

"On a side note, for anyone normal. If your husband/wife asked for a divorce, would you feel happy if they stayed just because you threatened them to make your life hell if you left? Didn't think so....."

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/fear-of-abandonment

Imo, the hallmark trait of PD's. They go to exceptional heights to avoid being emotionally overwhelmed by the trait.  In a divorce, they cannot control the leaving action and reactions of the departing spouse so the PD's actions/reactions are hyper-amplified to avoid abandonment, and when reality of the divorce hits home, is when the other side of the PD abandonment-coin becomes exposed; self implosion and rageful-desiring the abandoner be severely punished in some strong method through an attorney.  Not saying to be negative, but in mental prep for you.  As for those on this thread so-far, who have gone through this before us, imo heed the experiential advice. 

SoT

I just want to say, I have just started on the journey (filed today) and I still don't really know what to expect. What exactly she'll throw out on the table. I'm freaking out, but by the same token having you all to guide me with your experiences has been an inspiration and such a help, that I could never put into words how thankful I am this group is here .  Em Brother I wish you all the luck in the world, I know everything your feeling, because I've been there and am still there for bit longer. Peace to all.

Yesterday went OK in the end, she didn't ruin the event for the kids. I obviously had to put up with a charade for the kids, but the real issue with this is that STBX acts on the charade and think it's real. I mentioned earlier in this thread that she had got an appointment through for an issue she has but has refused to deal with, it actually was true and it includes me. Here is a big dilemma, I want to help her for the sake of the children, this is something that possible could be sorted, not a deal changer for me, but might get her in a better state. But, I really don't know if I mentally can manage this, and I know deep down that all it will be is a session where she blames all her problems on me. But, at the same time I want to see how she acts with someone else in the room. As this is not a sprint but a marathon, if I can try to navigate through this with some kind of peace and not full on war fare I will try to do this, if not for me at least for the children. I am Out of the FOG so I am not worried in that sense, but with all her erratic behaviour and how it affects me I feel I need more support to enter the real battle, however this battle will look like. I am going to see my doctor again today, not sure what will be said but she wanted to see me again. It's still almost a month until I have an assessment meeting for Therapy, I really wish it was earlier, I need someone to talk to about this and what to do. I pretty much know where I stand legally and what options I have, but that doesn't help if something go terrible wrong with STBX and she follows up on one of her threats. I probably should look into my medical insurance to see if I can get help quicker through that, if not I will try to be away as much as possible until I get someone to talk to. It is almost impossible to do this with no real support, you all here are amazing and the best but I also need someone to talk to in real life.

Sorry for rambling on, I am just exhausted.

Quote from: escapingman on November 04, 2021, 04:39:46 AM
I obviously had to put up with a charade for the kids, but the real issue with this is that STBX acts on the charade and think it's real.

Hey e.m.

This is what I was talking about in an earlier post.
The more she "thinks" that everything is fine between you, and that the divorce is off, the bigger the rage when the divorce is brought up again.
I totally understand you wanting to keep the peace the way you are for you and your kids, and I don't have a solution for you, but I just wanted to reiterate just how precarious your position is right now.
And the fact that you are now considering going to that session with her, when a month ago you said you wanted no part in that, will only be seen as a win for her, and further proof in her mind that she can get you back to exactly where she wants you, where you've always been.

You're between a rock and a hard place my friend.
It's a shame that these things move at a snails pace.
It must make it so difficult for people in your position when it drags on so long.

Hi Simon, I see what you are writing and I both agree and disagree. However, I will create a new post for this as I think what I am about to write is a big topic and not as black and white as it might look like.  Bare with me, I am busy with work but will try to create this post today - watch out.

Sorry everyone, I haven't had a chance to start the new thread I wanted to start. I have been busy, but also in turmoil about what is happening. I had a long chat with a childhood friend today, he is the first close one I ever told about what is going on, I spared him the worst. He told me I have to get out. I know he is right, felt very good to share some of this even if I held back. Also spoke to ny doctor today, was offered anti depressants but said no to that.

Tomorrow is a new day, I try to start that new thread tomorrow.... thanks for all your support.