Swearing and Verbal Abuse from N Parent

[Dandelion]

I just wondered what others thought about this.  In my case from "Ignoring" uNPD mother.

Much of what I read is on the lines "you are not a very nice daughter" or various manipulations or touchiness or crying or self-pitying episodes.  All awful of course.  But what about the open swearing and abusive and aggressive tantrums - e.g. "you F*  B*" - out of the blue, or even more heinious remarks that are so bad they seem to come from some kind of devil.  Its that dark.

My "ignoring" uNM is clearly not right in the head - but at the same time - saves her worst abuse - for me, her only daughter.  To most others at work (except the rest of her family) etc she appeared Ms FairlyNormal, worked, paid her taxes, etc.,

The last time she verbally abused me, I thought this IS the last chance - if it happens again - I will walk away completely.  And I really mean it.   After 6 months of NC, I've written a letter to clarify the situation to her (which she'll probably hate because they hate truth and clarity after all), which i may or may not send.  In many ways I'm hoping she doesn't contact me back as I can quietly close the matter.  Regardless, I don't think things can ever get back to how they were, even in the better aspects.  I'm too tired (my own health problems).  Too wary, too weary.  I think any renewed contact between us would be a vague, distant truce at best.

How have people coped with being called vile names?  Is it normalised for you?  Or is your "PD" more subtle?  Interestingly, nobody else has witnessed her rages at me (apart from my son once).  I've experienced these hate outbursts and tantrums roughly once a year, usually in private for 40 years since about the age of 15, often ruining xmas, birthdays, holidays.  Though occasionally its been in a restaurant or in the street. Its usually you F* B* and related abuse.  The vitriol and level of hate, spite and insanity is really hard to imagine. 

The rest of the time she's now ignoring (60%), pleasant (10%), helpful (10%), snipey, sarcastic, sneery, mocking (10%).  Abusive-raging-unhinged (10%).   In my teens, 20s and 30s she was probably more 90% ignoring, 10% abuse.

Just wondering. 

[GettingOOTF]

The thing with abusers is that they cannot be abusive to everyone and they also cannot be abusive all the time to the people they choose to abuse.  If they were they'd have no one as it would be much easier to walk away.

It took me a long time to see this but the fact that my father and my ex treated everyone else differently showed me that their treatment of me was a choice.

I dealt with it by walking away. I don't think it's possible to be around people who are abusing us and not be negatively impacted by it.

I know this is your mother but I recommend reading Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft. He describes this exact scenario and explains why they abuser isn't "unhinged" and in fact it totally aware of what they are doing.

My experience with these truces is that they don't last and when they break it's usually that much worse for the target of the abuse.

[lightworld]

Hmmmm this sounds a bit like F but he doesn't swear at me he  just rages that everything is all my fault. I think it's anger that they can't get what they want and they lash out at a handy target (us!) . Not sure if your M is the same but I've noticed F's rages fo!low the classic abuse cycle which is similar to what you describe in percentage terms. I think GettingOOTF is right, they do choose a victim and they know what they are doing.

It's disordered behaviour but it does a lot of harm to us. I used to walk away if F started on a rage but it was hard. Now I'm NC I don't have to deal with it anymore.

It's totally unacceptable behaviour, lacking in basic respect for you as a human being and yes, it's abusive. To protect yourself, I believe you need to get away from her, don't engage if she starts and don't allow her to continue with the abuse, you don't have to put up with it. Good luck and stay strong

[Dandelion]

Thanks for your replies Lightworld and GettingOOTF.  Its all very intense at the moment for me and I am throwing alot of psychic energy into it.  (Meanwhile uNM is probably in LaLaLand watching daytime TV, oblivious except maybe a vague sense of herself as victim).  Its not that I haven't given this subject any thought over the last 15 or so years, I have.  I've had therapy, read alot of books, tried to work out what it means or what the hell to do.  However - it feels like crunch time now.  There will no going back for me after this last (sorta) chance.  I can't spend any more time on this, I just can't, I have to move on.

[LemonLime]

Hi Dandelion, I'm sorry you're dealing with this.  It's painful.  You certainly sound like you've got a good handle on what the reality is.

I relate to your post.  I have an uPD sibling who has raged at my parents and me, and sometimes at boyfriends.  I've witnessed a mini-rage at her husband.   This has gone on since her teens and she is now middle-aged.  Things were seeming better until they weren't.  The most recent rage at me involved her calling me names, though not swearing.  She never swears. The "names" are more accusations around my being "selfish, entitled" etc.    It feels like calling me names, and it was in front of my FOC including my children.   Then she pretended, as she always does, that it didn't happen.   My T pointed out to me that she is gaslighting me when she does that.  Although she's not saying "it didn't happen and you're imagining it",  she is acting like it didn't happen.  So it's gaslighting.    Then she hoovers me by giving small gifts for no reason, or giving extravagant instead of "normal" gifts at my birthday or holidays.

My parent witnessed the most recent rage at me, and dad says nothing while mom got angry at her but doesn't characterize what my PD did as "abuse".    She sees it more as an "over-reaction" and "might tell her that she is not allowed to speak like that anymore".
Nobody but me sees it for the abuse that it is.   The most accurate word for the things she says during her rages is "contempt".   She has contempt for us.  According to Dr. John Gottman, contempt is the most potent killer of a relationship.

I wrote a long letter to PD telling her that I have empathy for her but need to protect myself and my family and will not stay in a room where rages are happening.  It was really a very nice letter and let her know I am willing to work on a better relationship with her, but that she would need to do the work too.   She read the letter in private and told M that she would talk to me about it, and then never did.

She lives in a fantasy land all her own.  She is a very charming and fun and extremely intelligent and resourceful person who I have had a close relationship with in the past.  A very chummy relationship where I confided in her and she in me.   She's so smart that she pushes the envelope just enough and abuses in a way that allows plausible deniability.   She has said she knows she is "passionate" but "at least she is not mean".   That's how she explains her rages.  Passion.   And I think she is trying to say  she is not "mean" like me.   I'm apparently mean because I stay calm through her rages and then set some boundaries.    I would describe her as 98 percent helpful and pleasant and lively and fun.  And 2%  abusive.   When she is good she is very very good and when she is bad she is horrid (for any of you old enough to know that nursery rhyme!)

This was really the first time she has screamed insults at me, and I plan for it to be the last.   I have given several years time for an apology or at least an acknowledment that I did not deserve that treatment and that she will not do it again.   I have reached out in a nice way immediately after the rage, and been clear that there is a path forward for our relationship, and made clear what I will not tolerate.  If that isn't "nice" enough for her, then I believe nothing is.   And as for further contact, thank goodness for COVID so that has not been much of an issue.  But it will be soon, when restrictions are lifted.  I believe we cannot ever be friends again, because she has not owned her rage.  We will be forced to be together at times but I will make sure we don't vacation together, at least under the same roof.  It will be cordial.  That's all.

It's so hard for me to do this.  I am so sad, and have only partly grieved the loss of the relationship I thought I had.   But I cannot control this.  And I know that if my daughter had a friend who treated her as my sib treats me, I would very clearly advise my daughter that the friendship is not a healthy one and that it is time to find different friends.   And that she should just be cordial to her former friend, nothing more.   Not cold, just cordial.

They have put us in this terrible situation and I'm angry at your mom for doing that to you, and at my sister for doing that to me.  They are asking us to choose a relationship with them OR our mental health and self-esteem.    It's really a clear choice when I think about it, and having my own kids makes it clearer, as I know what I would advise them in a similar situation.   It's just tragic.  It really is.

[GettingOOTF]

For me I have no regrets about going NC. It really allowed me to take my healing to a different level.

Of course I have periods when I doubt my decision and when the guilt kicks in, but overall my life is so much calmer. It's hard to describe but it's like a weight was lifted and I was finally free to be myself.

[Dandelion]

LemonLime, I am sorry to hear you what you experienced with your sister;  you also seem clear-sighted about it.  It takes a lot of mental energy to work it all out emotionally and intellectually, I've found.  I've also had the pretending-it-never-happened and yes it is a form of gaslighting and refusal to take responsibility. 

Re. the letter, I've spent hours on it over several days, though I've finished it now.  Undecided, but I'll probably send it, just to put responsibility in writing, firmly and finally where it really lies.   I don't believe she will accept what I say, but I think its still good for me to say it.

I'm predicting uNM's response will be:

1.   A distorted, angry, abusive letter back though to what level I don't know (it won't be easy to read, but will confirm my NC).  It will mostly be a work of fiction.
2.   Ignores my letter with Silent Treatment.  Fine, I stay NC.
3.   This is more tricky, i.e. if she tries to put it back in my court or does some hoovering in the future.  I can't imagine her being gushingly nice like other narcissists, but I have seen her do it tentatively, worming her way back in.  But it would still be hard, as this time I'm not sure I could actually get past it, even on a VLC basis, and she is minimum effort at the best of times.  Perhaps we would just drift from VLC back to NC in that case. I really don't want a relationship with her any more. 

I am so grateful for this space, and the people here.  And I am so glad you found NC gave you more peace and freedom GettingOOTF, long may it be.

[Spring Butterfly]

For that reason I despise profanity and find it very triggering

Please consider carefully what you hope to accomplish in a letter. You're inviting contact and naturally she may respond, who wouldn't - PD or not? I know you didn't ask but please consider your steps carefully

[Dandelion]

Thank you, SpringButterfly.  I did what I needed to do, I worked through the letter, and scenarios, and other stuff.  Such a helpful thing for me to do.  So so tiring, but done now.  I had a long night's sleep and woke wonderfully rested which was beautiful after such exhaustion. I didn't feel the need to send the letter today, as I reflected again what it would achieve in the scheme of things.  I was always going to take my time over this one, and clarity would be my guide. Though I was happy to assert myself and my reality regardless of response or no-response as it happens, if that makes sense.  I also reflected where we were truly, and came more to realise it wasn't clear there was in fact anywhere helpful to go with this afterwards.

Peace to you.

[moglow]

... The most recent rage at me involved her calling me names, though not swearing.  She never swears. The "names" are more accusations around my being "selfish, entitled" etc.    It feels like calling me names, and it was in front of my FOC including my children.   Then she pretended, as she always does, that it didn't happen.   My T pointed out to me that she is gaslighting me when she does that.  Although she's not saying "it didn't happen and you're imagining it",  she is acting like it didn't happen.  So it's gaslighting.    Then she hoovers me by giving small gifts for no reason...

Dandelion, what LemonLime describes is more my experience. Mine will push and push and PUSH, trying to get to me, telling me I'm a liar and "have a convenient memory" and that I "blow things out of proportion as usual" and "that's not what I MEANT" - all basically admissions that she said and did exactly what I said, only casting aspersions on it because I dared call her on it. I'm not supposed to do that.

But the verbal abuse? Too too familiar. If I dare try and stand up to her it just gets worse, she hunkers down and really gets into it. She gets some kind of sick charge out of it, it comes across that she feels all righteous and self-important somehow. She lances that boil/ / lets the steam off the pressure cooker and she feels all better until the next time. I never know when that will be or what random something will trigger it, but it always came back.

SB is right - we have to think about what we want to accomplish and if it will actually help us do that. Getting it OUT helps us, but telling a PD parent who shows no remorse, nothing but contempt and disdain? Nah. I've yet to see a positive outcome of that. IF you send it, keep a copy for yourself. That way when/if she comes back with something you can legitimately say "no, what I said was ... let's get it right if you're going to throw it back in my face." For me/mine, a letter would be a declaration of war and she'd do any and everything to tear me down yet again. I refuse to give her that kind of  ammunition again.  But that's just me.

Peace

[Dandelion]

came more to realise it wasn't clear there was in fact anywhere helpful to go with this afterwards.

I meant after sending such a communication.  It would be a clear message, but I also surmised, likely to be unhelpful for anybody in the end.

Meanwhile, today was relatively pleasant and peaceful, and finally some Spring sunshine.  And I hope for you all too.

[Leonor]

Hi all,



I only remember two races from my HPDm. One time she came into my room, which was always messy, and ripped all my clothes from the shelves yelling that I should consider myself lucky, I kid not, to have *arms* and therefore be able to do things like put my clothes away.  I remember sitting up in my bed feeling kind of confused; it was like she unhinged for a moment or something, and very bad for keeping a messy room.

The other time I remember was I snuck out to go on a date with a much older man. I had been repeatedly abused by older boys and men all my life, including her father and second husband, but she never did anything about it. When she saw me leave she was furious and when I got home she yelled at me and called me a slut. I announced I was leaving the house but I had nowhere else to go.

Later I approached her to say I needed therapy and she told me to go look in the phone book. For a therapist. Oh, and her *best friend since childhood* was a child psychologist.t

Now that I have three kids with messy rooms, I see three kids with messy rooms.

If any of my children ever asked me for therapy, they'd be hooked up that very afternoon and me too to know how to best support them.

And now that I am a grown woman, I know that if an older adult *ever* approached my child, I'd be embracing and protecting her and bringing every kind of hell down on that adult.

The memories of those incidents are what helps me stay centered in my nc. They are painful, but they do clear out the FOG.

:big hug:

[daughter]

My fancy-pants NBM has called me "f'ng bitch" several times in decade before my NC decision, always in regards to me not fulfilling her expectation (but for very valid reason, which I think triggered her more so, because she knew I knew that her "expectation" was inappropriate or outright wrong).  Done so in NF's presence, who didn't intervene, or redirect her to apology ("how dare you upset your mother!").   Swear words are a strict boundary for me, even while I was still in docile "dutiful daughter" SG role; I had presence of mind to leave situation immediately, ending that encounter without any further word, cut and go.

Now I realized I should have called-out her name-calling, chided her for bad behavior and overt rudeness, and then cut and go.  Was too fearful back then. Now, blissfully NC.

[Pepin]

I was raised by a raging narcissist father that swore in both English and his native tongue.  It was demeaning and cowardly, especially when I was very young - actually, any age.  There is no excuse for it.  And he would often finish off a swearing rant with: and what if I dropped dead?   . Yeah....fun times with the old man.  Glad to be free of that.

Before going NC and also during certain times of NC where I had to clear up one of his stupid dramas with other family members, we would communicate through email.  Oh the words that I have saved that he used in those correspondences are classic!  And proof of his bad language and behavior.  He swore and wrote some of the nastiest stuff I have ever read.  And I have it all saved.  Who knows, maybe some day it will come in handy as whatever evidence.  There are times when I have thought about replying to his more recent emails but I will not.  Same circular conversations aren't going to achieve anything.  But at least I have his written documentation of just how bad a human being he is. 

[MamaDryad]

My mother has a filthy vocabulary. I grew up that way, too, and one result is that when I was a teenager, I called her some vile things right back, which compounds my guilt and shame. I work very hard to speak gently these days, in tone and word choice and content. I don't always succeed, but I don't swear AT people.

One thing about the swearing is that it gives them an easy deflection if they are the manipulative sort. In my mom's case, she would call me up, drunk, say the most awful things, and then the next day I would get an email semi-apologizing for her "rude and crude language," as if that were the main problem. No acknowledgement that her behavior was actually abusive, just that I might be "offended" by her grittiness and authenticity.

[Dandelion]

Its a strange one.  In my case it always came out of the blue, and only as an adult for some reason.  Though I think I was frightened of her as a child on some level.  I remember as an adult being late to meet her (she was often late), and actually realising I was frightened of her reaction to my being late (but it was very 'hidden' this feeling as I had been completely unaware of it before). 

I read recently in relation to PDs that they try to provoke "reactive anger".  This also gives them licence to escalate the conflict in my experience.  So, then there can be a shame involved there when you get justifiably angry back, as you mention MamaDryad,  Interestingly the last time I went NC, about 7 years ago, I thought afterwards:  she was experiencing completely random and unfocused torrential rage - when I answered back I was experiencing justified anger at her behaviour towards me.   There is a difference.  On that occasion I felt no shame for what I said, as it was "truth" and I didn't personally insult her though I expressed my anger about her behaviour.  However, once or twice I have overstepped the mark and felt a certain shame for my words back, even though completely provoked, so I understand where you are coming from MamaDryad.  On such occasion you kind of feel diminished yourself; perhaps that is something they wanted to provoke you to as well. Maybe they are projecting their own shame on to you.  Its just all so sick in a way its hard to get your head round it all.

Daughter, the F*B* thing -  yes I have experienced those same words, but I felt very alone, experiencing this, as its so outside normal mother-daughter relations (especially as they seem civilised and respectable the rest of the time; the transformation for me was always mind-boggling).  Also, its not even the words, its the way they are said.  I did shout back at her once "What kind of mother calls her daughter these names?" - in a kind of broken, furious, tearful leaving retort.  But mostly, like you, I was too fearful to really confront her.  However, she would not have really "heard" in the moment of the argument, it would have just fuelled her rage.  However, in the cold light of day, I still have the feeling that I would like to have spoken to her about this, i.e. confronted her.  The problem is "in the cold light of day" you also feel you want to get away from "it" (No Contact), rather than have a conversation or confront them.  It just feels like you cannot win with these people.  However the last row didn't end "cleanly" enough for me, but that seems also to be part of the dilemma and madness of dealing with them.  When it is a clear confrontation or break it is easier.

A further thing is there is also the "blindsided" thing.  Its so shocking, so out of the blue, that you are stunned, even into momentary amnesia.  I have seen people "stunned to silence" e.g. waitresses when she has been rude, because it is so outside normal experience, you are not even sure you heard it correct.  As a younger woman I would sit there open mouthed, then leave in silence, in tears.  As I got to my 40s I started "fighting back" verbally.   I did go NC quite consciously a few times, before I even knew about PDs.  On one of those occasions, she once said something so abusive to me, something unrepeatable even here, that I threw a cup of coffee in her face!  I wonder if there is some kind of weird, occasional underlying masochism with their sadism, that invites that kind of reaction.

Interesting what you say Daughter that "Swear words are a strict boundary for me".  I do see what you mean.  I think I could almost cope with the digs and negativity (as you can respond in some way to that possibly), but there is something about swearing personal abuse that goes beyond the pale (in terms of levels of contempt and hatred), as there is no real possibility of "response" with that.  Which is part of the objective possibly, it is a total violent put-down and expression of power and contempt.   Its hard and heart-breaking to understand with my mother, as the rest of the time is either ignoring or very civil, even pleasant. It makes no sense. 

I think the letter could possibly have been one way to get my final chance to be an adult.   She would not, I am sure, "hear" it.  But it would still have been OK for me to "say" it in the cold light of day if that makes sense.  I think advice not to send the letter on this thread confused my process a bit (esp as it wasn't asked for, even if it came from a good place).  Perhaps next time I should be clearer about not wanting advice if I am still in some kind of process but am very clear at the same time about "sitting with" it.   So I have not been able to make "my" own decision on this and am now still feeling confused.  But anyway, thats part of life.  In the meantime I am enjoying the relative peace of NC and more time and energy and focus.  Not having to play dutiful daughter (even when we "got on") is quite a relief.