glimpse into my situation. possibly trivial, pet-related

[sunflowerdust]

So... hi. I believe I am the daughter of a passive-aggressive covert narcissist.

As a sort of intro story, just a glimpse into the situation. This is something that has bothered me for a long time, but none of my siblings seem bothered by it. We have always had dogs, but usually they have been kept outdoors (exclusively) because my mom hates having dog hair all over, etc.

Our two current dogs are elderly. They live in our backyard, but they are in a subsection of it (about 30 feet by 10 feet - 2 dog runs combined into one big one. They have dog houses and a sort of larger shelter). I used to take them for walks regularly, but my mom was always saying that I made them bark all day by doing that. I have not interacted with them over the past year except a half hour or so one day to trim their nails. They still bark just as often as they did before.

So now ... the only interaction they get with my family is when someone goes out to feed them or clean up after them (and even then my family members mostly ignore them). They don’t get to leave the dog run at all anymore. Yes, it is a “big” dog run, but not big enough that they can really run around.

My mom has compared it to those accounts of Romanian orphanages, where there weren’t enough caretakers to hold babies, so the babies were deprived of touch. My mom says it is cruel for me to pay so much attention to the dogs because then they crave something they can’t have (and thus bark). She says that I “ruined” these dogs ...

My family members don’t seem to think it is a problem to ignore dogs all day, every day. They don’t seem to think it is a problem that they don’t get exercise. My mom’s only concern seems to be that the dogs are being quiet.

I guess I just want to know if I am making too big of a deal out of this. I know some sources recommend ignoring a dog to deal with problem behaviors, but even those don’t say to ignore a dog ALL the time.

[sunflowerdust]

So just a note - I know this post sounds maybe a bit silly and trivial compared to some more serious issues. It's not that I don't have more serious things going on. Just that I have more of a handle on some of those things. In a lot of ways, my mom treats my siblings and me sort of the same as the dogs, so the dogs are almost like a metaphor for the larger situation.

[Latchkey]

Hi sunflowerdust and welcome,
I don't think your story is trivial. It does speak to a number of larger issues. Are you living with your mother now?

An interesting fact is that  there used to actually be a type of PD called Passive Aggressive PD but it was removed from the DSM at some point. When I found that out it explained a lot of people in my life that didn't seem as aggressive as a typical N.  It doesn't mean it is any less disturbing when you are dealing with a PA PD person however!

Please read around the Toolbox and the site and feel free to start posting on the boards below.

Latchkey

[notrightinthehead]

I understand your concern about the dogs. Your mother's remark seems to stem from the philosophy that one can give too much love and this will spoil the object of such love. I have my doubts that cruel treatment will make dogs happier, nor children for that matter.

[TriedTooHard]

Hi, I don't think this is trivial at all.  You're onto something.

I work with a minority, disenfranchised community, and we see a lot of people with questionable motives attending meetings and wanting to get involved, because they are attracted to the history and legend surrounding this culture.  They only have their own needs at heart and are using this group to heal their inner wounds.  They see this community as objects, not lives with feelings.  We have to be very aware of this in my job.  I think those that work with children also have to be aware of this.

My family and I recently adopted a rescue dog.  Despite all I've learned here, at work, and in therapy, I was surprised to also see this problem in the dog adoption world.   

You're right, any legitimate source of dog information will not recommend for the dog to be ignored all the time.

[countrygirl]

Hi,

I don't think this is trivial at all.  The dogs know that their humans are neglecting them, and they don't feel good about it.  Why have dogs if you are going to treat them like this?  The dogs are being fed, so they aren't being treated like animals which are hoarded and not fed; technically, they don't need to be rescued, but they aren't being treated well. 

I do think that how people treat their animals can give you a good idea of how they will treat people.

At least you know that your impulses are kind and caring.

[not broken]

I don't think it i trivial either.  We have dogs- my NPDh wanted the dogs.  In my house, my NPDh would yell at the dogs aggressively to MOVE if they were in his way.  He would ridicule the younger one as stupid, dumb dog, etc. always as a joke.  It became the norm in my house.  The younger dog is like my baby, and I realized my husband would get jealous of the attention I gave the dog; plus someone always had to be the weak one to target.  I started by brushing it off and then finally realized I really didn't like it and pushed back with him and my kids (who he had joining him in the jokes).  when they would say, "he's just a dog", I would say exactly.  What has he done to you to be made fun of?  He's a dog- our pet, part of our family!  You want to snuggle him, you want to play with him, we take them on vacation with us and yet you get to make fun of him?  That's not what we do. 

As I think about this now- the fact that it took me years to make my point that I DIDN'T LIKE IT and I wanted them to stop, makes me shake my head now.  They are objects to him- not living things when it is an inconvenience or frustration to him.

[sunflowerdust]

Thanks everyone, your viewpoints definitely help. I feel validated in having my concerns about the dogs now.

For what it is worth, I did make a pretty strong effort to have them rehomed. I had posted online, reached out to the humane society, and to people I know. Unfortunately, these dogs have issues with barking, one is territorial, one is bad around other dogs. So I had no luck there. I made the mistake of discussing rehoming them with my mom, and she claimed they are her "beloved guard dogs", even though the rest of the time she refers to them less kindly.

[sunflowerdust]

I still have several postings online that advertise the dogs and their situation. I have contacted the local humane society. I have contacted all the breed-related rescue groups in this region (but they can only take purebreds, apparently). I have asked basically everyone I know if they can take them or if they know anyone who can take them.

[sunflowerdust]

To clarify - the humane society has told me, directly, that they cannot take them because of their issues.

I cannot currently afford any kind of trainer. I am currently financially dependent on my parents. I am trying to work quietly to leave the situation and support myself but there are a handful of obstacles.

[TriedTooHard]

Sunflowerdust, it sounds like you're doing the best you can in a tough situation.   My perspective on all this is that the dogs are elderly and have enjoyed most of their lives in good health.  I'm not trying to justify your mother's treatment of them - its very tragic what she's done to their personalities, but, they seem like they allow you to trim their nails without you fearing injury.  It sounds like you and others can feed them and clean up after them without incident or fear.  That is HUGE.

I can understand why the humane society can't take them.  There is an over-abundance of unwanted dogs out there and perfectly nice, healthy, younger dogs are being euthanized every day.  I can understand why acquaintances can't take them - dog ownership is a big responsibility.  It doesn't mean those dogs are a total lost cause and can't have some enjoyment of their elderly days.

Its been my experience that similar to the "baby industrial complex" out there that tries to guilt new parents into spending, buying, and doing all they can for their children, there is a "pet industrial complex" as well.  There are unreasonable expectations of dogs and dog owners.  There are dog parks and doggie day cares springing up all over the place.  We're made to believe that these un-natural and potentially dangerous environments are good for all dogs and if a dog doesn't do well there, the dog has serious mental flaws.  We're made to believe a dog should have friends and be able to play with as many other dogs as possible. 

And don't get me started on the dog trainers.  Just like with breeders, there are serious issues in that industry.  There's the purely positive trainers that make people believe that love, patience, treats, and no corrections can get rid of unwanted behavior.  Then there are the traditional trainers that believe every unwanted behavior is a sign of a damaged dog and we should all slap a prong or shock collar on them.  Both types call themselves "balanced", sell a lot of expensive tools, and with-hold information so we keep going back to them.  Eventually, when they and the dog fails, euthanasia is recommended.  There is no balance in what they do.

Having said all that, there are some pretty good dog trainers who love dogs and put a lot of free information on Youtube.  While you're stuck at your mother's house, is there anyway you can quietly watch a short video here and there to pick up a few techniques so you and the dogs can try and eke out some positive outcomes during your stay there?  While you feed, groom, and clean up after them, can you sneak in some of your newly learned techniques?  No matter how short or long the rest of these dogs' lives may be, you may be able to accomplish some small, positive, acts of love here and there for them.

Let me know if you want to hear some of the Youtube dog trainers that I appreciate.

[sunflowerdust]

Sunflowerdust, it sounds like you're doing the best you can in a tough situation.   My perspective on all this is that the dogs are elderly and have enjoyed most of their lives in good health.  I'm not trying to justify your mother's treatment of them - its very tragic what she's done to their personalities, but, they seem like they allow you to trim their nails without you fearing injury.  It sounds like you and others can feed them and clean up after them without incident or fear.  That is HUGE.

I can understand why the humane society can't take them.  There is an over-abundance of unwanted dogs out there and perfectly nice, healthy, younger dogs are being euthanized every day.  I can understand why acquaintances can't take them - dog ownership is a big responsibility.  It doesn't mean those dogs are a total lost cause and can't have some enjoyment of their elderly days.

Its been my experience that similar to the "baby industrial complex" out there that tries to guilt new parents into spending, buying, and doing all they can for their children, there is a "pet industrial complex" as well.  There are unreasonable expectations of dogs and dog owners.  There are dog parks and doggie day cares springing up all over the place.  We're made to believe that these un-natural and potentially dangerous environments are good for all dogs and if a dog doesn't do well there, the dog has serious mental flaws.  We're made to believe a dog should have friends and be able to play with as many other dogs as possible. 

And don't get me started on the dog trainers.  Just like with breeders, there are serious issues in that industry.  There's the purely positive trainers that make people believe that love, patience, treats, and no corrections can get rid of unwanted behavior.  Then there are the traditional trainers that believe every unwanted behavior is a sign of a damaged dog and we should all slap a prong or shock collar on them.  Both types call themselves "balanced", sell a lot of expensive tools, and with-hold information so we keep going back to them.  Eventually, when they and the dog fails, euthanasia is recommended.  There is no balance in what they do.

Having said all that, there are some pretty good dog trainers who love dogs and put a lot of free information on Youtube.  While you're stuck at your mother's house, is there anyway you can quietly watch a short video here and there to pick up a few techniques so you and the dogs can try and eke out some positive outcomes during your stay there?  While you feed, groom, and clean up after them, can you sneak in some of your newly learned techniques?  No matter how short or long the rest of these dogs' lives may be, you may be able to accomplish some small, positive, acts of love here and there for them.

Let me know if you want to hear some of the Youtube dog trainers that I appreciate.

Thank you for your understanding. Yes, I would like to hear your recommendations on trainers. I will do what I can.

I have been trying to figure out a way to even be able to get them out for a walk or just to let them out to run around in the backyard. I currently have a toddler son, so I am really restricted to my mom’s schedule for anything like that, as I would have to make arrangements with her. And she has been weirdly unreliable in general about being available to watch him or other things. (My sisters are no more available because they are my mom’s assistants basically).

As for training, their biggest issues have to be with being around other people and around other dogs. Well, and their barking, but ... I can’t really summon up things for them to bark at, and my mom would be irritable with me handling that at all because she is convinced I make it worse.

I was only able to trim their nails because my mom specifically asked ME to do it. It is not a frequent occurence. She has removed me from feeding them or anything at all because, as I mentioned, she claims I was making them bark (i.e. any later barking in the day was because I interacted with them that morning).

I used to take care of feeding them, and at the same time I would let them out for a little, clean up the dog run, brush them, etc. But those were things (and walking them, which I did daily) my mom said were making them bark and she threw many tantrums about it and harrassed me endlessly, even though I was also taking care of a then-baby at the time.

If I can get to the point where I can walk them or let them out to play, then, yes, I can try to get a bit of training in. But I haven’t figured this step out just yet. I know she will harrass me again and I think I’ve nearly built up enough resiliency to do gray rock and the like. But I don’t want to make things any worse for the dogs either, because they do have a brief period right after they get back from a walk where they bark a little bit. ... ... Then my siblings get angry with me because they have to get the dogs to quiet down while I get back to caring for my child.

Sorry I know that sounds like a bad excuse, my mom just really wears me down sometimes.

[TriedTooHard]

You have a lot going on.  Your child comes first.  But, if you have the time, and its safe for you and your child.... success with difficult dogs could reinforce your leadership / grey rock abilities around difficult people.  Best wishes.

Victoria Stillwell, "Its Me or the Dog" shows - there was a recent episode where a mother had to keep her toddler safe around 2 bored, un-trained dogs.  She leans towards the positive, but realizes bad behavior shouldn't be tolerated.

Jeff Gellman - solid K9 training - he leans towards a lot of corrections, but he's done a lot of good for lost causes.

Robert Cabral -

McCann dog trainers - lean positive

Stonnie Dennis - very balanced, focuses on young dogs

Gentle leader dog walking head harness (usually $16 with DVD) - there are a lot of Youtube reviews.  It made my dog walks much more safe - I followed all instructions and it took a couple of weeks to get used to it, but it works.  If this didn't work, I was considering a prong collar.

[sunflowerdust]

Well, no luck so far. I tentatively approached my mom about walking the dogs twice a week. She said it either needs to be all or nothing (as in walk them every day or not at all) or they will bark. Which is not true at all - when she reamed me about making them bark before, I was walking them every day. She had tons of reasons to complain about me walking them every day before, so I know it isn't going to work any better this time around.

I asked if anyone else could walk them. She says she can't because they pull her arms too much (they do pull a bit). I asked if someone could sit in the yard with them for 20 minutes and just let them out of the dog run (they run and run all around the yard if you just let them out to run). She said no, that won't work.

I'm out of ideas.

[sunflowerdust]

Also I'm not sure that there is an answer. We had a dog during my childhood who lived to be 13 years old, and 7 of those years were spent in a 10 by 10 dog run. Like these dogs, he did not get to go for walks or get let out of his dog run, and was ignored all the time.

My mom's excuse for never walking that dog was that he had hip dysplasia (he was a breed of dog that does not bark, so that wasn't an issue for this dog). I don't know if that was true, as he didn't have vet checkups except when he was a puppy. Even if it was, I've read that dogs with dysplasia still need regular exercise.

[TriedTooHard]

Your mother sounds really difficult.  Sounds like she's going to be unhappy no matter what you do, so hopefully you can find a way to do what's right for your child and yourself, and tune her out. 

I hope she never gets any other pets again.  Not sure how overwhelmed the animal control authorities are where you live.   I don't think it would be passive aggressive at all if you took anonymous steps to put her name out there with those types of groups, so it would be harder for her to acquire another animal in the future.  You must be careful, though, because it would have consequences for these dogs and they don't sound adoptable.  Maybe towards the end of their lives you could make a move?

[Drawing_boundaries]

The philosophy being imposes on the dogs is very telling of your mothers perspective/approach to the world.
The illogic of comparing the dogs situation to the Romanian orphanages & then blaming you for spoiling them by taking them for a walk is insanity. Love and attention is equated with kindness in the orphanage setting & walking a dog is a basic human/animal bonding relationship and necessary for their health.

I get the impression you are being scapegoated for your behaviours irrespective of what they are.

[sunflowerdust]

Your mother sounds really difficult.  Sounds like she's going to be unhappy no matter what you do, so hopefully you can find a way to do what's right for your child and yourself, and tune her out. 

I hope she never gets any other pets again.  Not sure how overwhelmed the animal control authorities are where you live.   I don't think it would be passive aggressive at all if you took anonymous steps to put her name out there with those types of groups, so it would be harder for her to acquire another animal in the future.  You must be careful, though, because it would have consequences for these dogs and they don't sound adoptable.  Maybe towards the end of their lives you could make a move?

Yeah, might be worth a shot. It would be nice if she didn't keep getting dogs she is just going to ignore.

I do know that when I was growing up, when we had the other dog I mentioned (the one who spent most of his life in a 10 by 10 ft dog run), someone called animal control on my family. But they just told my mom she needed to clean the dog run more frequently. ... So nothing actually changed other than that, unfortunately, even with animal control aware of that situation.

[sunflowerdust]

The philosophy being imposes on the dogs is very telling of your mothers perspective/approach to the world.
The illogic of comparing the dogs situation to the Romanian orphanages & then blaming you for spoiling them by taking them for a walk is insanity. Love and attention is equated with kindness in the orphanage setting & walking a dog is a basic human/animal bonding relationship and necessary for their health.

I get the impression you are being scapegoated for your behaviours irrespective of what they are.

Thank you for your perspective. I sometimes get kind of caught up hearing my mom's and siblings' perspective, and I start to really doubt my ability to see the situation clearly, so it is really nice to hear a viewpoint that validates my own perspective.

[hell and back]

The objectified dogs are being used to hurt you the scapegoat, to give your mother - the PD, narcissistic supply, and your siblings are her flying monkies. Gray rock while you find ways to relieve and love the dogs and yourself.    So stressful for you and sad for the dogs.