Parenting the flea-ridden

[NumbLotus]

I thought it would be useful to have a thread to share experiences, successful or otherwise, raising kids who have fleas or maybe just personalities that naturally include certain traits. 

My kid doesn't have PD but she does have certain ways. She's 14 and in the last few years her empathy has basically evaporated. I know it might just be adolescence but she is more - whatever it is - than any of my friends alwhen I was that age.

We are in this coronavirus thing right now and sometimes I've asked for some very basic help in these times. Yesterday I asked her to help me with something that was difficult for me visually - I'm legally blind. It was something that would have taken her 90 seconds at most and not very difficult. I've been jumping around trying to help everybody these last few weeks and I ask for one thing and it's like I asked her to saw her arm off. She spent far, far more energy refusing and complaining than she would have spent cheerfully doing the task.

At some point it got worse than that, she outright said she didn't care if I needed help. This honestly hurt my feelings but I just told her to give me her phone and leave the room. She refused, then suddenly offered to do the favor - it was too late, I wasn't begotiating anymore. I had to take the phone out of her hands. She stormed off.

Then was angry at ME the rest of the day. Like a PD. Zero shame that she couldn't be bothered to help her blind mom out with something quick and easy, but angry eith ME. This sets me off because it feels like a PD trait.

I realized also that she leverages outbursts to get her own way. You don't want to ask her to do something she doesn't want to do, or it will set her off and then you'll have to pay. She'll make sure it costs you so much more to ask than to do it yourself.

I decided that I need to pay the price and PARENT. If not me, then who?

Everyone except me falls for it.

My mom finally saw what I see and backed me up when I said DD is going to do the dishes twice a week from now on. It is far far far easier to just do them than to make her, but parenting isn't about doing what's easiest. If I can't stand up to her, then who?

So I just made her do the dishes. She utterly refused, tried to enter into a circular argument (nope. I just kept saying "you're going to do them. Because I said so. You're gonna. Yes you are.").

Actually said no and turned to leave the room. I started for her. I'm still stronger than her, but not by a while lot, and I realky didn't want anything ohysical, but I could not just let her take us all emotionally hostage. Thankfully, rhe second I started moving, she physicalky capitulated. But the verbal battle was still on.

She pretended she had absolutely no clue. I played along and told her what to do. I had decided that I would win no matter what, and she would get tired before I did - whatever it took. She started slamming my mom's glasses and I told her she would NOT break them. She yelled that she didn't CARE and slammed them 10% more lightly. Enough to protest but not break. I let her have that victory.

Anyway, it was a total battle.

And I won.

But also lost. Because that COSTS. My mom told me afterward she was having palpitations in the next room. I don't feel like I've been hit by a train, which I do when things are bad with H... I feel like I've been hit by a motorcycle.

But if not me, her mother, than who?

Next round is dinner dishes.

And then again on Thursday.

[notrightinthehead]

That sounds exhausting. As if you did not have enough to worry about.

[NumbLotus]

No kidding. Sheesh and bananas.

She spent time in her room for a while then recovered.

So I just now reminded her to do the dinner dishes. Lololol. "I already DID the dishes!!!"  Not the dinner dishes. "I'm not even getting PAID!!!" Boohoo, I never get paid.

My mom said (with DD out of the room) "do you think it's fair she has to do dishes on a night where there are THREE pans?"

I said, "I know, mom. YOUR mother would NEVER have asked you to wash three pans."

That shut her up. My mom did every dish from age seven. Her mother lost exactly zero nights of sleep over it.

It's casy seeing how people enable this crap. My mom. My husband. Everyone is all "oh, but she's only 14." So on her 18th birthday she'll magically be responsible and capable? Come on.

No, they'll excuse her. "She's only 18." "She's only 25."

And then at 32, they'll throw up their hands and wonder why she makes other people do her laundry.

FOLKS. I'M DONE WITH THAT.

For context, I'm hunkered down with my mom and DD at my mom's house. No H. If I ever had an opportunity to parent my way, this is it.

[Free2Bme]

NL,
I did see a transformation with my DD14  (she's #4 kid) over the last 3 years, she has lost much of the sweetness and softness she once had.  She is very precocious academically, intellectually, and socially, & has developed a hard exterior and often projects an attitude of 'I don't need anyone but me'.   

As I read your post, I see similarities with my DD14 .  Although we get along well most of the time, I have noticed traits in her as well;  unwilling to admit fault 90% of the time, doesn't apologize, occasional lying, sometimes using manipulation to try and get her way, the most concerning is no show of remorse and lack of emotional regulation- she'll escalate very quickly over miniscule issues.   She does have some empathy, but she keeps it well hidden most of the time and remains unapologetic for her behavior.

Sometimes, without provocation, she resorts to purposefully hurting me or her sister (DD21) with very unkind and derogatory words.  It comes from an attitude of entitlement.  Me and DD21 (she lives at home) are both calm, soft-spoken, non-confrontational and peacemakers by nature, so DD14 behavior is not due to a home environment where this is the norm.  DD21 is more of a pushover than me and will retreat more than I do.  I can go toe-to-toe with DD14 but I don't like to, so I pick my battles.  So, I try to shrug it off to show her it has no effect on me, especially if it's something small, or she is tired or on her period.  This is what really pushes my hurt-button though: the worst occasions have been when I have set a limit and she's really mad and tells me "You are a control freak just like dad mom! I would rather go live with him, even though I hate both of you", que slamming bedroom door. ( Last time she slammed her bedroom door, I took it off the hinges for a month.  Hasn't happen again.  )  It honestly gets to me when she says this but I try not to let on.

My ex is very high on antisocial traits, two therapists I have used conclude he is end of spectrum PD, one T even saw H in therapy during divorce.  Children that grow up in an environment where a parent is modeling unaccountability, cruel words, and using anger to control others are bound to pick up these traits.  Although DD14 see's F for what he and has for many years, she learned from our home environment.  So, she uses this to hurt me though I don't think she really wants to live with him. 

I have a part in this too.  During my divorce, I let things slide with my 4 children that I wouldn't ordinarily.   Now that I have some distance, I have been addressing these issues.  So, my current mission is setting boundaries with DD14 .

I wonder if you might take a different approach with DD.  Instead of saying   "you're going to do them. Because I said so. You're gonna. Yes you are." , I would say,  " you have a choice DD14, you can choose to do as I have asked you (such as the dishes TO MY SATISFACTION, no half-ass job, or you can choose the consequence of not doing what I ask.  If you chose not to cooperate with me, then ___X___ will be the consequence, so it's up to you". 
At this point she would forfeit the right to complain about the consequences if by default  she is choosing the consequence for herself.

I just read your addendum post, to that I would say " you don't get paid for doing your part to contribute to the household chores, and neither do I". 

I believe in only paying kids for stuff above and beyond normal stuff ie. dishes, trash, laundry, bedroom. 


Stand strong, and stay in control of your emotions.  Hold the line, you are doing the right thing !  this isn't about the dishes, it's a life lesson.  The goal of parenting is that we raise capable adults.
Stay cool NL , parenting isn't for the faint of heart

[NumbLotus]

Yes, your DD and mine seem to have a lot of similarities.

Mine has a lifelong history of anxiety and I believe that is what spawned this hard exterior she has now. She is also very entitled and actually describes herself as transactional. (Neither I nor pd-ish H are transactional, so that is weird. Also H is only entitled when emotional/defensive, not in everyday life).

DD is also unwilling to admit fault. Apologies don't happen. (H does apologize, to me and to her). The only manipulation I see in getting her way is throwing a fit when asked to do something she doesn't want. I'm not sure she tries to make things happen (buy her things or whatever), just refuses to do what she doesn't want to. No remorse.

Her emotional dysregulation is limited to just blowing up harder than you would expect over a thing, but it's not eggshells with her. If she's upset, there's a clear reason, usually anxiety is triggered but sometimes entitlement. She is not upset often - this is the first dustup we've had in weeks.

Thankfully, she reregulates very well - time alone in her room drawing or texting or whatever. But I find myself going along with what we all know so well - pretend like it never happened. I'm not going to get any apology from her.  Not sure if I should push that?

Sorry to hear yours lashes out with verbal attacks. Mine doesn't do that. That would hurt. My H does what I call "the parting shot" when we fight and it gets so bad I ask him to leave the room. He'll storm out but before he goes he will say one of the Worst Things you can imagine. I now plug my ears when he storms out, childish i know but PDs force crazy behavior. I choose to do that than have that stuff ring in my mind forever. But DD thankfully doesn't, other than typical teen crap ("you're ruining MY LIFE" which doesn't do much to me lol). Oh, she does say "there's something wrong with you" which is straight out of H's mouth.

Yeah, I prefer to avoid confrontation. But I will go toe to toe when needed. Like today.

And yeah, I'm equally responsible as H formy own parenting. I have let things slide. This is a great opportunity for me to parent while not feeling like I have to fly under the radar with H. I would not say that H feels very differently about parenting than me, our values are similar but his emotional regulation has fallen apart  But he was always softer on her than me in terms of making her do responsibilities.

So are you saying to avoid the curcular argument to just give her a consequence and then BAM? I gotta think about that. It makes sense but I WILL have to immediately give the consequence because she will NOT just shut up and do it. And then it will be WWIII. I was trying to just avoid JADEing. She was trying every argument and I was just saying "you're gonna do it" rather than answering her demands that I justify my request to her, which is a checkmate for her because she will never accept an explanation to be valid. (Standard move in PD ville). I guess I could take her phone away in 10 minute increments until she complies.

So, it was time for dinner dishes. WAY EASIER but still ridiculous lol. This time she complained but was in a good mood so was joking around. Sarcastically but not meanly. She resisted but not very hard. She did the damn dishes.

Another mom watching might have felt like it was ridiculous but I felt like it was a victory. It was almost easy.

We'll see how Thursday goes.

But I will make it happen either way. She's going to learn that there are limits.

[Free2Bme]

NL,
An afterthought, one thing my T mentioned that I could pass on to you.  He recommended that  (in a  time of no conflict) ask my DD to track back to what she was thinking/feeling before she got upset.  Then try to deal with whatever was going on internally; anxious, frustrated, fear, tired, friend issues, etc.  This allows open dialogue and helps her to tune into herself better.   

Kids are feeling the strain of daily routines being disrupted, and  feeling powerless over their circumstances, I know I do right now!  So, I am trying to strike a balance between sensitivity to her with all of this change and also maintaining expectations of order and decency towards one another.

If it were me, I would tell DD clearly what the expectation is for example "I want you to do the dishes twice per week",  (very reasonable) and try to make it a positive thing, offer praise and maybe an incentive like dessert or a movie with mom.  I would follow up with, however, if you choose not to, than this (X) will be the consequence.  The ball is in her court, and it is no longer a power struggle between parent/child. 

It is good that you and H are basically on the same page.  I would also look for anything to praise her on, assignments, healthy choices, whatever.  Assure her we will all get through this and that good things can come through adversity.  As I write this, I am reminded to do the same for my kido's. 

[1footouttadefog]

I stay out of the parenting section because I find the posts involving kids stressful and triggering.

I have great empathy for little kids but spoiled selfish and entitled teens not so much.  My little sister was as you describe this young female. Notice I did not say young lady.

I would srtio he of all she hold dear and show her she is not entitled to ANYTHING.  I would provide only what is legally required of me until I got some respect and cooperation. 

My youngest started some such nonsenclse around 6 years old.  She wanted to go to an orphanage.  That is all we heard for months. 

I finally lost it.  I pondered what to do.  I then decided to empty her room of all but two worn out changes of okay cloths, a set of jammies one crappy coloring book and a few broken crayons and a crappy toy missing parts.

I gave her a new name, child 33.  I explained she would not be able to be a real orphan because I was legally required to take care of her because I was not lucky enough to be dead.  I would however do my best to let her experience being an orphan.  I gave her a slice of bread and cup of water on a table in the middle of her empty room.  She had to stay there.  We went about our normal activities.  That night we went to eat her favorite restaurant.  I explained we had to take no 33 along because it was illegal to leave her home alone but since she did not want a family the orphanage would provide a sack lunch for dinner.  We came home and she returned to her room and we watched a movie without her. 

She broke.

I did not restore her stuff however.  She got it back incrementally  while being cooperative and having a decent attitude toward others.

I am so sorry you have to deal with this level of disrespect and lack of empathy.

I hope you can make your way forward.  It will be worth it as a parent when you see the rewards. 

My guess would be that she is responding to you under the parameters set by your spouse. That might be one angle to approach the problem from as well.

I can totally relate to you wanting to take off after her.  I wanted to tackle her just reading your post. 

[Lauren17]

NL, I have been thinking about your post a lot and considering my journey with oldest DD who is nearly out of teenage years.
So much of uBPDh's behaviors are learned from his FOO. I don't know if it is BPD it fleas, but I do know it's poisonous.
My journey Out of the FOG started when DD was about 14. I was terrified to see her acting out those hurtful behaviors. Sarcastic or snide comments. Passive aggression. Martyr syndrome. All the things her dad does.  I thought I can't let her end up like him!!
I started researching teen behavior and reading up on parenting skills. What I learned is that many of those responses are a natural part of emotional development. We can expect them from teens as they grow. And it's up to us to help them see which behaviors are acceptable which aren't.
I agree with the suggestions here to provide choices with consequences. "You do the dishes when I ask and do them well. Or you can lose your phone."
At a later time, when things are calm, talk to her about how her reactions influenced the situation and what she might do differently the next time.
Or this one: "I know you're angry with me right now. That's ok. But giving me the silent treatment isn't going to get you what you want. When you're ready to talk. I'm here."
The big difference between our teenagers and our PDs is that we can affect change in the teens. this is huge!!
I've seen DD learn and grow and it's so rewarding.
She's not perfect, but I'd say she's emotionally more mature than her dad at this point.

[NumbLotus]

Great suggestions. I am going to start using the consequences thing that several people suggested. Taking away the phone fir increments of time. She will try to fight me on it but I can just keep adding increments. The idea is to stop engaging. Instead of me being on the defensive with her verbal games - though I think I don't fall for them much, but sometimes we still get stuck - she is just going to have to cave or never see her phone again. That gives me the power (and not an unfair one) and makes the BS not only ineffectual but a loss for her.

I also like the "okay that you're mad but (etc)" line.

Fyi, in case anyone was bothered by my saying I was about to go after her, I just meant that I would have taken her by the shoulders and steered her back to the sink and blocked her exit. I would have pushed only as hard as I had to, which probably would have been somewhat hard, but neither of us were going to get hurt. She would not, for her part, done anything more than dug in her heels to resist.

Yes, entitlement is not something I have any patience for. Lots of things I can work with, but entitlement is something I cannot respect.

That kind of problem only comes up sporadically. She's almost always cheerful. I wouldn't say she was *helpful* but she's not moody except on odd occasions.

I think since Sunday she's been more careful, though. She demanded I prepare her a sandwich (cheerfully but not politely). I informed her that from now on, I would not be responding to demands, only polite requests. Normally she would have resisted that - no blow-up, just blown it off - but instead she said "okay." And today she asked for something "please."

But TOMORROW is a big day. Tomorrow will be her 2nd dish day. I expect her to resist. It's a (virtual) school day and she has NO TIME, I only said it was that one day (nope). She caaaaaaaaan't. So I will start by saying that each complaint will result in 10 minutes loss of phone. ("But I have SCHOOOOOOOL, I need it for SCHOOOOL."  Well, then, even more reason not to lose access to the phone then).

Almost looking forward to this.

[Medowynd]

I want to encourage you to hang in there.  It so difficult when you have others interfering and disagreeing with you.  That can't seem to understand that it is for the good of your child.

My younger daughter has ADHD and I suspect ODBD.  From the time she was born, I knew that something was different about her.  Temper tantrums on a daily basis.  Struggling with two people to get her into a car seat.  Non stop screaming if she didn't want her sister sitting by her in the car.

I made the decision before she was two, that I wasn't raising an animal.  I had few rules but they were non-negotiable.  Her discipline was consequences.  My daughter chose her actions and chose the consequences (loss of toys, bike riding etc.). My husband disagreed with me and constantly tried to interfere.  He learned to back off because it was much worse for him, because I wasn't going to allow him to destroy her with giving in to her and rewarding or ignoring her disobedience.

Our home life was not the most peaceful, but by the age of seven, we felt that we could take a plane trip with our daughter and she did very well.

I have been criticized many times for the way I raised both of my daughters.  My younger daughter is a speech pathologist.  She struggled in school but worked hard.  I have seen the consequences when parents let the kids rule the home.  Many of these kids are struggling in relationships and jobs because the world and society could care less about their feelings and temper tantrums.  My younger daughter has thanked me many times for helping her and disciplining her (when she was older).  I have a very close relationship with both girls as does my husband.  He will occasionally bring up his disagreement with how I handled our younger daughter but will agree with the results.

[NumbLotus]

Great story, good job with that.

[NumbLotus]

 

She only made a few good natured complaints, not actually resisting but just dramatically going UGHHHHHH while smiling teasingly.

She is now doing the dishes while happily talking on speakerphone to her friend. I didn't have to argue with her once; her teasing complaints didn't require any response.

I GOT THIS. <cracks whip>

[Medowynd]

You do have it!  Consistency is your best friend.  Kids actually like rules and boundaries.  I had a principal of a high school giving me a hard time when i made a comment about teenagers liking rules and boundaries.  I asked him why he thought that teenagers joined gangs with all of their rules.  He had no comment.

[NumbLotus]

Agreed. I think anxious kids crave consistency and boundaries even more than most, and my kid has anxiety.

My former neighbors had kids with strong personalities and weak parents. It struck me that from a tiny age - as young as 2, when I met the oldest girl - that these kids could not have felt safe given that their parents were so weak.

That girl got her way but the price she paid was having to feel like she was the only one in charge from toddlerhood. I want my kid to feel like her mom is competent, wise, steady, solid, grounded. A mom who enforces boundaries also protects them.

[Lauren17]

Well done, NL. Sounds like progress.

Someone once told me that kids are like at the night watchman, checking the doors to see if they're locked. They don't want to find an unlocked door, but they'll keep checking.

I've  kept that image with me. Even with uBPDh undermining my parenting. I hope it helps you too.

[NumbLotus]

That's a great image, I like that. Will ponder it.

It's not the same, but it reminds me that some PDs (like my MIL) are like velociraptors from Jurassic Park, systematically checking the electric fence for weak points. But they are hoping to crack the fence. I like the night watchmen idea, they are just making sure the door's locked like it should be.

[Lauren17]

I love it!
Kids and night watchman check boundaries because it's their job.
PDs and velociraptors check boundaries because they want to take a bite out of you.

[Stillirise]

 
I love this too. I am always creating visual analogies in my mind to help me cope.  These will be added to the highlight reel! Thanks!

[NumbLotus]

A new issue, and I am not handling it well at all.

We had a game delivered to us that we both enjoy playing. I asked if she wanted to play the eening it arrived, she said she didn't feel like it right then. No problem.

The next evening I asked if maybe she just wanted to take a 10 minute break from what she was doing (and she'd been doing it for hours), play a round or two with me, and then get right back to her activity. If she had declined, I would have been disappointed but I would have dealt with it. No big deal.

Instead, she went UGHHHHH FINE like I'd been on her case for hours.

Okay, she's a teen. I know that.

But it hurt my feelings and I felt kind of triggered. Her reaction put me in a weird place. Was I really expected to say "great, thank you so much?" And enjoy the game that she so magnaminously allowed? I am living in the same house as her and yet am hardly ever seeing her. I only got the game in the first place because she was down for it.

Okay, so a better parent than me would have calmly responded, maybe explained why her reaction was not appropriate or necessary, and reminded her that there are ways to decline an invitation without emotionally rejecting a person.

But Innever really get the idea it gets through. Her response would have been similar (UGHH) and then she would have gotten everything exactly how she wanted it, going back to her activity with no consequence but a ine minute lecture easily ignored and no effort on her part to fix things.

I've found myself cold to her and pushing her away. I don't think I've done this before. She approached me the next day wanting to show me something but I was not interested. Yeah I know, real mature of me.

Yet every time I try to rethink it, I keep feeling like, why do I have to do all the emotional work here? Why do I have to smooth it over and be available to her while she does whatever the hell she wants? Why do I have to be kindly interested in her every dumb activity when she can't be bothered to practice basic civility?

Thing is, it wasn't a big deal - it was that SHE WILL NOT FIX IT. No apology. Not even a semi apology. Not even just making an extra effort toward me somehow. Nothing. She will just go on her merry way until *I* fix it somehow. AND I'M SICK OF IT.

I'm triggered because I'm SICK of absorbing every emotional blow alone, sick of just picking up the pieces all by myself every damn time. My life with my husband is terrible, it's hell, and I just try to soldier on. But I don't have it in me to be a mature adult about this. Either I will just get over it eventually and she will be confirmed that she doesn't have to fix anything, just wait it out for ither people to swallow her crap and move on with no consequence to her, or our relationship just fractured firever over something so trivial. It makes me wonder if we really even have a relTionship to fracture anymore. Just a few years ago she was my sweet baby, now I don't think she'd care if I disappeared forever except I wouldn't be available to make her a sandwich.

[Poison Ivy]

With the benefit of hindsight (my daughters are now in their 20s), I offer the following:

1) My daughters did things like this, and I felt similarly to you. My then husband did not behave the same way your husband does, but he was in the midst of withdrawing as a father and as a husband. 
2) I don't think you need to "get over it," but you do need to get through it.
3) I doubt your relationship wih your daughter is fractured.
4) I don't advocate blowing up at your daughter, but I think it's okay to sometimes express your feelings to her.

I have great relationships with my daughters now. And as negative as things sometimes were while they were teenagers, our relationships then were okay, too.  They were being normal teenagers, and I was being a normal mother of teenagers.