I see PD parent as a pre-verbal baby

[keepmoving]

I have been thinking about this idea lately, of how a PD can sometimes be this extremely roundabout way of expressing feelings or needs. It paints my parent in a different light, how they can bend over backwards to not appear vulnerable or needy, all their manipulating, obfuscating, is like a slight of hand to obscure the facts of their reality, of their feelings or needs. Maybe they are thinking that if no one sees them needing or feeling, that they will be protected from those who would exploit that. That brings me into another idea, that they operate the way a person operates in reaction to a parent with a PD, by hiding your needs/vulnerabilities, by understanding that they can only be met if obtained in a roundabout way, that direct communication is fruitless. And they have never learned, or don't believe in other ways of interacting with people.

I know inter-generational trauma is a thing but I hadn't pictured PDs in this sense that they create the absence of the things they seek, they want to be cared for and loved but they have no language for saying that, they try to create it/orchestrate it but it's never right, and they don't know how to give care or love to others either. It's like a pre-verbal baby crying for something but you don't know what they want. Just an idea, I know I am greatly generalizing the PD parent experience, but I was curious to see if anyone else has their own interpretation on the emotional 'indentation' a PD parent leaves on their child and if it's similar or different to the kind of emotional 'indentation' the parent is operating from.

[bloomie]

I know inter-generational trauma is a thing but I hadn't pictured PDs in this sense that they create the absence of the things they seek, they want to be cared for and loved but they have no language for saying that, they try to create it/orchestrate it but it's never right, and they don't know how to give care or love to others either. It's like a pre-verbal baby crying for something but you don't know what they want. Just an idea, I know I am greatly generalizing the PD parent experience, but I was curious to see if anyone else has their own interpretation on the emotional 'indentation' a PD parent leaves on their child and if it's similar or different to the kind of emotional 'indentation' the parent is operating from.

keepmoving - this is a lot to think through, but in my own experience coming from what I have determined was a narcissistic family system, my own parents definitely operated from some of the same intergenerational assumptions of their own parents around the roles (determined solely by them) and the rights (nonexistent) of their children.

[Cat of the Canals]

I know inter-generational trauma is a thing but I hadn't pictured PDs in this sense that they create the absence of the things they seek, they want to be cared for and loved but they have no language for saying that, they try to create it/orchestrate it but it's never right, and they don't know how to give care or love to others either.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I also think the so-called emotional indentation is very similar and in fact related in that a lot of it is learned behavior in that many PD parents are modelling behavior they saw from their own caregiver(s).

[Liketheducks]

My BFF and I have come up with a theory.   It seems like many of us, in middle age, have discovered that our parents just really didn't like us.   Prior to the late 60's, people had less control over when or if they decided to have children.   When I think back to how I was parented vs how I tried to parent my own child, (not that I was perfect by any means) I'm struck by how much my parents worked from just survival mode.   That, plus a host of intergenerational trauma and poor coping skills make for serious dysfunction.   
My mom lives in a senior community and frequently says that all her friends there are abandoned by their children (ungrateful).   When I suggested that she look further into that, it is always someone else's fault.   She's more focused on blaming someone for her hard times rather than finding a solution for herself.   

[keepmoving]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I also think the so-called emotional indentation is very similar and in fact related in that a lot of it is learned behavior in that many PD parents are modelling behavior they saw from their own caregiver(s).

I guess to this point I am curious why the perpetuation of the modeled behavior occurred, I mean, looking back it seems very obvious that whatever my parents were doing wasn't working, and that they had to have known this. Maybe it was simply all they knew and had no knowledge or resources of how to change it, or were, like liketheducks said, living in survival mode.

[NarcKiddo]

I also find the perpetuation of the behaviour to be something of a conundrum. My mother is not a stupid woman, far from it. I know very little about her childhood or what behaviour she experienced. She claims she actively wanted children, and I think she probably did in theory, thinking that we would be like her personal playthings. Which is mostly how she treats us. The actuality of us being separate people with our own identities does not appeal so she simply pushes it away. However, I also admit to having chosen a fairly drastic means of stopping the perpetuation, which was not to have children. That is a decision I regret in some ways (it is now too late) but I am also grateful for on behalf of the children who would otherwise have had me as a mother. At least I realised enough to know that I would possibly inadvertently damage them, as I had been damaged, and more particularly I started to realise I was in a thick FOG and did not trust myself to protect them from my mother.

[Cat of the Canals]

I guess to this point I am curious why the perpetuation of the modeled behavior occurred, I mean, looking back it seems very obvious that whatever my parents were doing wasn't working, and that they had to have known this.

I think there's some "barn smell" factor. If you're visiting a farm for a day, when you first walk into the barn, all you smell is the crap. But if you work there everyday, you probably barely notice it. Every story I've ever heard of my MIL's mother is absolutely horrid, but she doesn't seem aware that her childhood was abnormal. She perpetuates the behavior because she's never thought to question it.

As far as repeating the same behaviors even when it's not working, I think any result that isn't what they want is filed under "someone else's fault." I've lost count of the number of people here who have been told, "You were such a difficult child! What was I supposed to do? I did the best I could at the time!"

Then there's the HUGE denial component. My mother talks about my extremely neurotic grandmother as if she were a saint. She seems very protective of the idea that her mother was "wonderful."

[Liketheducks]

Cat....I LOVE the barn smell analogy.   And so identify with the repeating the same behaviors bringing unwanted results as "someone else's fault".   

My mother talks about my extremely codependent grandmother as if she were a saint, as well.   I'm sure my grandmother had some narc tendencies.   She was SO focused on keeping up appearances.   Even I noticed this as a small child.  Mom throws in the "I'd never treat my mother this way" trope whenever I am not doing what she expects of me.   
 

[keepmoving]

However, I also admit to having chosen a fairly drastic means of stopping the perpetuation, which was not to have children.

I find myself leaning this way as well NarcKiddo, I'm horribly afraid of repeating my parents mistakes. It may be drastic or may be the only certain way of knowing it won't be repeated. There is some kind of power in that, I feel like it's looking at my inner child and saying "that won't happen again".

I think there's some "barn smell" factor. If you're visiting a farm for a day, when you first walk into the barn, all you smell is the crap. But if you work there everyday, you probably barely notice it. Every story I've ever heard of my MIL's mother is absolutely horrid, but she doesn't seem aware that her childhood was abnormal. She perpetuates the behavior because she's never thought to question it.

I do agree with this, anytime I've asked my sibling about something my family did I can tell she has been in the barn for too long and can no longer smell the sh*t.

Looking back, my parents did seem somewhat aware that how they behaved wasn't normal, as there were secrets kept only within the family; hoarding, the state of their marriage, abuse. Maybe this had more to do with keeping up appearances though than acknowledgement of any wrongdoing.

It's like, they know to keep up appearances but don't take the next step to be able to actually address those problems they try to hide. Maybe they think everyone lives like this, hiding their issues and putting up a facade?

Another thing I've been thinking about is how my parents childhood's seem terrible in slightly different ways when compared to my own, like they were able to acknowledge that what happened to them was wrong, so they try to act different, and so they think they're doing better than their own parents. But the same issues are there.

Though similarly to what Liketheducks said, my father idealizes his father even after telling outrageous stories about his behavior. They can't seem to hold both things at once.