Out of the FOG

I am worn out, I am exhausted, but I am standing firm. STBX (uNPDw/uBPDw) has been love bombing me for a month now, mixing this in with random outbursts and complaints. I find it extremely hard when she is pushing and pushing for us to go back to how things were, she is violating my boundaries constantly and then gets angry when I enforce them. The cognitive dissonance is still there trying to tell me to drop all of this and just go back to an easy life with her, but it's getting weaker as I now there is no easy life with her as I would just jump straight back in the cycle and before I know it the next phase would start (again). I have had many talks with one of my daughters, the scape goated one, and she is struggling. She told me she can't concentrate at all, not in school, not at sport, not at home as all she is thinking of is the stress caused by STBX. She says she want to speak to her teacher about it, the one that spoke to her when social was involved, but she is to scared as she thinks her sister (the golden child) will find out and tell STBX. This was the problem when she spoke to the teacher last time, teacher said to come back to her whenever if she wanted to talk and she would speak to both of them.

I am not sure what to do really, it's only a week and a bit to Christmas and if I leave/file now STBX will use that against me in a smear campaign. If I leave it until after I will probably experience a full IDD cycle which could end in any way (Christmas day always end in a full blown rage from her). Her constant love bombing, then telling me I am mean when not accepting the love, followed by another love bomb, followed by another complaint and so on is really wearing me down. It's starting to get so bad I am close to just walk out the house and not come back, but I need a better plan than that. I wish I had a therapist right now, but I am on the waitlist, and if lucky I will get one in a couple of months. In certain ways I need one less and less as I am self healing and am slowly getting further and further Out of the FOG, I just need to be enough out of it to not bother about STBX anymore. I am close, but not close enough. But I feel that any day, any minute that last little FOG could clear.

I feel for you man.

Cluster B's are very good at getting what they want, and depending on their age and experience, usually have all the tools in their toolbox to make it happen.
It's going to take a lot of resolve on your part to see this through.

Although you may feel like she's wearing you down, think of it this way; Many people would have folded by now. I'd guess that in the past, you would have already folded by now.
Take that as a sign of new strength on your part.
You're stronger than you were.

And Cluster B's are never going to respond well to boundaries or us saying no.
If we set up healthy boundaries in the beginning, they would have either run for the hills, or given us enough red flags for us to do so.
But setting boundaries deep into a relationship or marriage is always going to be met with maximum resistance and ultimately rage.
If someone's been getting their way all this time, there's no way they're letting you say NO now.

I think you know the scale of the rage that's coming when you file.
You just need to be ready and prepared for it, and no-one blames you for biding your time, and choosing the right moment.

As for a therapist or counsellor, have you tried an online one, while you're waiting for the appointment you've made?
I don't know how busy they are right now, but maybe worth looking at either A J Mahari (find her on YouTube for contact details), or Dr. T (from Shrink4men.com).
They both specialise in Co-dependency and healing from Narcissistic Abuse.
Maybe an appointment or two to get you through to your scheduled one.

Good luck.

I found a new channel on youtube, it is very refreshing and has some different views. The channel is called "The Four Things That Heal BPD and NPD Abuse" and is hosted by an ex BPD abuse sufferer. Some of the thingsI have struggled to get grasp of has been explained very well, especially his explanations about the relationship between empaths and BPD/NPD. He also mentioned a very interesting observation, all BPD's are also NPD, but not all NPD are BPD's and BPD's are generally what also is a cover NPD. To me this makes so much sense as I always struggled to put a finger of if my STBX is BPD or a covert NPD. He also explained the thing about empaths and super empaths in such a good way, at least it made me fit in. I have always thought of myself as an empath/super empath but not felt comfortable with every explanation of empaths as very caring and empathic. His explanation is that us empaths are actually quite narcissistic but not NPD, as we (certainly I do) behave very empathic but for selfish reasons to get love and approval. This really was light being hit by lightening, I am selfish because I want to be validated and loved. So true. I have always wanted to be loved and validated, that's why I got caught so badly by my STBX.

This is a bit philosophical, sorry if nothing makes sense, but it helps me further on my journey and I am starting to focusing more on me and less on her. I suppose the ultimate goal is to focus only on me as that is when an escape is going to happen without any remorse of guilt.

The last our she has been back to form, shouting and swearing and then 2 seconds later behaving like all is fine. I am seriously considering just going and start the process from a hotel. Can I leave one week before Christmas? Will she be able to hold that against me? I am so tired, so so so tired. I am only staying for the children right now. I feel disgusted when STBX is near me, I don't think I will even feel bad anymore when I actually tell her that's it. I rather live in a hotel room for Christmas than pretending to be happy family with her, I don't think I can even do it for the kids.

What is making this harder (or easier) whatever way you see it is, when she is love bombing me she has devalued the Golden Child as my replacement. They are at odds now and STBX is extremely abusive to her, makes me wanna vomit. But I suppose whatever happens short term is not going to affect long term to much, but I really feel sick. My only questions is, can I manage to after Christmas, or can't I. I don't know.

Things that happen in the short term definitely could affect your children, even if they don't influence the outcome of the divorce.

Quote from: Poison Ivy on December 16, 2021, 03:00:29 PM
Things that happen in the short term definitely could affect your children, even if they don't influence the outcome of the divorce.

What I mean is, whatever affects the kids short time must be much better than continue getting the long term abuse.

I misunderstood. I agree with you, escapingman.

EM:

I hope you're documenting the abusive treatment to the children too.

Hhaw, I have hours and hours of recordings. I hope I won't need them, but I have them.

I got to a point yesterday when I could not take it anymore, she was shouting at the girls and I told her off. She stormed to bed crying and of course the kids blamed me. But, I know the truth and the only one that decided it was worth crying was STBX. It is not my fault she could not handle a telling off. It's so hard to keep MC and GR, but the tension and the emotions are building up and I think I just needed a release. Now she is pretending nothing happened and tries to get me on her side again, it's so tiring. It must surely be a boundary she is violating by not getting the point and keep coming back after she pretend to be a victim. This reminds me a bit of the movie where the girl wakes up every morning with no memory of the last day and her husband has to seduce her and win her love again every day, but this the opposite I have to tell STBX it is over every day just for her to pretend all is fine again the next day.

I.AM.TIRED.

EM:

At the point you reported your situation you seemed to have enough evidence and cause for filing divorce, possibly charges and restraining order as I understood it.

You stayed.

Things got worse.  You asked about restraining order, but the PD has been countering with behaviors she can't be charged with.  I was told the same thing, btw, bc I waited after the initial assault.

You don't know if leaving at Christmas will harm your case, bc you aren't hooked into a really competent attorney who sees the entire picture, understands all possible likely outcomes and shares that info with you after researching the exact case law involved so you BOTH understand the situation AND use it to make a good plan, put it in action and follow it without veering off course.

As a fellow empathy, I get it.  Been there.  Did it.  The question is, at what point do you make your stand, hold the PD accountable to the extent you can and stop allowing the PD and yourself to continue muddying the waters with odd dysfunctional choices NO ONE understands, bc PDs tearing themselves, their lives, spouses and children apart is disordered, doesn't make sense and WILL NEVER make sense.

So now you're patching together a short version of your truth, based solely on the evidence you have AND perhaps statements your children will make (think of the girls in your PD's control when they do that, btw) and YHAT will be the theory of the case you present to a Judge while asking for whatever protections, treatment and custody or visitation for yourself.

And.....
btW,
I would point you in the direction of Codependent relationship information, which could be very helpful to understanding what you're dealing with also, ime.

Needing to be needed is human.  We all need love and empathy.

Needing everyone to be ok, before you feel ok, limits your ability to be responsive, to think many choices through and select the best choice to bring about optimaal outcomes for yourself and your children, ime.

Your living in a reactive mode, traveling old brain pathways before you can consider, for one second, you HAVE choice, imo. 

This is the ladscape and ime trauma bonding is a part of the equation also, even though you're at the point where you fully understand you have no control over your wife's disordered conduct, you used to believe and try to control it.  Maybe you still do..... waiting for her to understand you and the divorce sounds like you still have hope.

My point is.....
Àssuming you're perhaps as broken as your wife is a weak position to be in.  Not that you are, but..... I'm concerned and pecking this response out with one finger on my phone.

You have issues.....we all do.  You put up with assault and abusive treatment of your children.  You're in over your head and reacting to the PD, assuming "telling her off" ( paraphrasing here) is raising your aggressively and speaking the truth,which unhinges the PDs AND gives them something to point to as ABUSE against them.....with the kids dragged in for terrifying measure as witnesses. 

When you're plotting the shortest least destructive route through divorcing a PD with kids crushed in the middle ...... You aim for mitigating harm and accept ongoing trauma is  part of all your lives.

That's almost impossible to square for empaths, ime, which brings us to finding a way to learn how.

I found a competent Trauma Informed Therapist with Buddhist leanings and it changed my life after 20 years of suffering and blaming myself, bc that's what empaths tend to do, ime.

It's the same with Cluster B PDs....they do what they're always done and will do.

Accepting that.....
Dropping judgements around it so you can see what's truly there without panic and chemical dumps that rib you of reason and choice.
Be super kind to yourself, always....like caring for a child.
You can hold your stbx in your mind with compassion, as she suffered as a child and us suffering, bc if that WHILE doing what you can to limit your children's suffering/your own in order to create less suffering for the majority....
In order to model healthier family dynamics while a window if opportunity still exists, ime.

It won't be easy.

There will be moments where pain and panic could send you spinning down old reactive paths you're mindfully stepping away from. 

You'll create plans  during calm moments where you're accessing logic, creative problem solving and good advice from attorneys, therapists and supporters who GET your situation.

You'll learn how to stop the panic and reactivity to restore your ability to respond....be responsive in the best possible way for your children and self.

++++Melody Beatty wrote a book+++++
Codependent No More.  It's a quick study you might find enlightening.

Thich Nhat Hahn's book
PEACE IS EVERY STEP you might find helpful, or at least diverting from the worry worry worry coping strategy that's not serving you well right now, imo.

Learning to do ONLY what one can, then put the stress on a shelf, is a coping strategy allowing the brain and body to rest, heal and engage in more frontal cortex thinking to identify and select the best choices available.

You're stuck in a biochemical hijack and it's impossible to think oneself out of that, ime.

The key is in the breath.  To slow it down, focus on it or the discomfort in the body means a tiger can't be chasing us.  If we don't slow and focus our breathing, fight or flight chemicals continue flooding the brain and body.  Survival brain wants to fee, fight, freeze it fawn. 

Breathing slow and focused reaches up under the amygdala and unhooks the wires to survival brain to restore higher brain function......logic, creative problem solving and choice.

This process is how one gets through the PD divorce with less suffering.  I only wish I knew about them 20 years ago.

In the meantime,
Acceptance
Non Judgmental focus
Tsunamis of self compassion
Keep researching
Learn to focus on breathing


You seem to have found your curiosity.  That's a good thing and shifts focus off the situation, which everyone needs.

I wish you and your family the best possible outcome.  Talk to your attorney and domestic violence advocates.  Make a plan.  Follow it.

This too shall pass.

 :yeahthat:

One more thing...my post has an overwhelming amount of information no one can take on board quickly or easily.

It's a  post pointing to paths..... new, unfamiliar and sometimes frightening IF we lean in with fear and doubt.

If we drop the fear and doubt, just for a little while, to lean in with curiosity..... we can begin to practice.  To fail or figure out small things leading to larger lessons...... it's a 2 steps forward, one step back requring a return to noticing whats there without judgment, to being overtly kind without fail to self and breath work...... walking meditation, pushinga against walls as hard as we can.... whatever works for you and something will work, IME, IF you stop judging and focus.  Keep going back and noticing what shifts, what frustrates, what bring relief and a smile to your lips, even when things are chaotic and toxic.... you can find ways to shift perspective and gain emotional distance.

My T explained it like this.....
It's the difference between having your nose pressed against the pebble (problem) OR seeing the pebble from a great distance, in the field along with the other pebbles, trees, flowers, lakes and streams.

If we can gain some emotional distance, if we can manage to expand our POV..... we manage to see the pebble, the problems creating it AND many solutions and choices to shift us away from the problem and toward better things, IME.

As long as we're living in fight or flight.... in your case I think it's freeze and fawn, EM...... as long as we're trapped in that chemical hijack, we deny ourselves our finest resources......ourselves.

You're living in fear of the what ifs......
what if things GET WORSE!?!
What if they get worse at Christmas!!?!?
What if I file and sabotage my ability to get a fair outcome in court, bc I DID that?!?!

That's all worry worry worry and no DOING what you can then putting the story on the shelf to be present, rest mindfully in awareness for yourself and with your children in order to be more competent, rational and creative while you navigate what will come to an end...... the divorce.

There's no way OUT of this, except through it, once you decide to go.  This means you will have good and bad days. Accepting it.  Not fearing terribly when the bad lands on your head is a small step to shifting your coping strategies to something better,IME.

And things WILL shift if you begin practicing, suspending judgment and embracing curiosity...... being kind so very very kind to yourself and holding the PD with compassion in your mind......
there's nothing else possible excpet change, even if you DO NOTHING NEW......
change is still unfolding, always.

Having some say, some measure of shifting trajectory and turning toward the positives while putting the negatives in some kind of perspective your brain can handle (not be shut down by) is possible and available to you.

I'm shocked you're doing as well as  you are, EM.

I can imagine how your life will shift if you nurture yourself while enlisting better coping strategies and brain calming skills.

THIS too shall pass.  Believe that and don't be afraid to PUSH on a doorjamb so you're calm enough to FOCUS on your breathing for 10 breaths, then 20 then 10 minutes.  Go out into nature and look at the trees and bark and roots and animals.... shift your focus so you can expand the space between you and your problems in order to SEE them with spaciousness affording you more choice.

You aren't doing brain surgery here.

You're goal is to create 1 or 2 seconds BEFORE reactivity patterns grab and take your focus off being present.

You're creating and opening a window of resilience to HELP you cope, strategize and problem solve better.

Not rocket science. Not alchemy.  Just biochemistry you can understand, tend to and expand your tolerance to stress so you have
more
choice
and
ability
to
respond.

Small steps, EM.

Small choices leading to profound unexpected relief and changes you can't see coming till they arrive.... and if you practice....you'll have your own.

Remember.....90 yo monks practice their entire lives..... always practicing.  No one perfects meditation.  They all practice and you can practice too.

Good luck

WOW, I am touchen that someone cares so much about me and write so long comprehensive replies.

I am getting my plan together, at the moment I am trying to rebuild myself as much as I can by limiting my time with her. This weekend I am away, booked 3 nights in a hotel and told her I am going for an event. She moaned but I did not care. I am right now sitting down, drinking a coffee, looking at people and just breathing. This is so wo derful. No pressure, just breathing. My plan for the day, I can change it if I want to, because it us just me, is to walk in a park. Nothing more. Everything else will be decided after I done my walk. No one else to think of. Just me.

I might be selfish doing this, but so be it. I need my own space. At home I am suffocated.  I don't make any progress and I am constantly on edge. I close my office door and she just barge through. I jump. She leaves. I close the door. She barge through again. I jump. I can't continue like that.

Thanks again for all kind words.

I just booked a table for one at of the best restaurants in the Town I am in. I am so looking forward to enjoy the food with no risk of drama. It's a cuisine my uNPDw doesn't like so haven't eaten much of it the last 15 years. I am starting to carve out my new life and soon she will be cut out completely.

It's not selfish to save yourself.

You're the one good-enough parent.

It's an obligation.  No t selfishness.

You can't save your wife from herself....no denying that at this point and accepting that's ok.  It is what it is.  Let it be without trying to change her.

You CAN save yourself and your daughters.  Give your attention to what you can do.

It's simpler when the PD isn't chattering and nattering and raging in your headspace, taking up all your energy to get through another day without folding, ime.

You can't know this now, but it's possible to limit and end the stbx's control over your Nervous System and emotions.  It comes and goes when children are involved, of course, but you're, right now on this break experiencing relief/resilience you can cultivate and build from this moment forward.  Even when the PD rages, you can control your emotions ... it's coming, em.

I check myself.....and think about my choices.  I try to make new and different ones all day, everyday to break down brain pathways made thick and  lightening fast by habitual use.  White matter in the brain is fat deposited around pathways we use all the time....myelin.

IF we make different choices, which takes a second to catch before we're thrown down reactive pathways if habit, we can build new pathways thick and lightening fast.   

The body is miserly with this fatty myelin coating.  It doesn't manufacture more.  It takes from thick pathways and builds around the new pathways IF we're working hard, so very very hard to change them, ime.

This is part of the biochemical hijack you're up against.  You aren't weak. 

Frontal cortex/higher brain function requires much more energy to operate.  Survival brain/ reactivity requires much less energy to function.

It's really difficult to do and exhausting, but worth the effort.  60 days of making new choices is enough to build new pathways.....think about that.  Our brains are amazing!

First, one must notice one's choices.  You have the chance to do that during this break on your own.

Once you're aware, gently rest in this state of noticing (without judgment....holding curiosity helps) and SEE more choice become available.  You WILL begin to feel like your old self again.

I can say do this, do that, but you're the one fighting this good fight.....not me.  I lost my fight spectacularly years ago.  You're already doing better than me, bc you're on this board, trying to see down the lanes lit by those who've traveled them before you.  We hold up lanterns for you to SEE and learn from you ur lessons.  So much amazing wisdom shared by posters on this forum.

All your brain needs is a split second, em, before reactivity ribs you of reason and logic..... You're creating spaciousness around the pebble.....to get your nose OFF it .....so you see everything and everyone and more choice around the pebble.

Your stbx relentlessly takes your attention and focus..... she's your pebble right now.  You have more control over your focus than you realize, em.  This might not make sense now, but it likely will soon.

It's not easy.  Onebbegins with going back to the basics,again and again.....
Drop all judgments. 

Get very curious so you SEE what's really there ... what's behind it.

Accept what's there.  Just try it....it is what it is, em. It is what it is. Accept and breathe.  Let it be what it is.

Be super kind to yourself....tend to your feelings and self like you would a small child.

And keep breathing.

You'll be modeling these improved coping strategies for your children very soon, likely.  How to hold space around their mother's disordered behaviors without getting sucked into her emotional vortex..... it's a skill to resist reacting to the stbx.  How to observe without reactivity.

To KNOW and trust things get better..to restore access to choice. 

To forgive yourself when you miss and react, choosing curiosity instead of judgment.

I repeat the things I had to hear over and over to understand more fully and begin understanding and effecting beneficial change.

I want details of the beautiful meals you enjoy, em! 

Thank you hhaw. I hope you are right about the 60 days as that is about how long it is since I told her we are getting a divorce and actively turned her down. I have noticed O am giving her less and less thoughts. I have been doing MC and GR, mostly successfully but I have had a few slip ups, I suppose that is to be expected when the pressure is relentless.  I do notice I am feeling much better when away from her side not responding to her messages.

I have realised, since I stopped engaging, her mood is still shifting and it has nothing to do with me. I always wondered what did I do this time, but it's all internal in her. Sure I can probably set her off, but she was always gonna set herself off anyway.

I am still tired, but not as flat out tired as I was before leaving home. I am not looking forward to go back and to celebrate Christmas.  I have to do it for the children as I cannot afford her to play the "daddy ruined Christmas" card. I rather her ruins it and then go full steam ahead with my plans in the new year. My biggest question right now is what to do about presents, do I give her a few to keep the peace, or don't I and risk her crying all day? Suppose I have to give her something, but she will take it as all is good and throw her at me. This is killing me.

escapingman,

hhaw has posted such incredible descriptive reasons/means to leave.  I just copied it and will print it off for continued and further reflection.  I recommend you do the same.

As for returning for Christmas and presents, since you appear to plan to stay for the holiday, get her a present.  But move through the next few days in complete detachment.  I stayed a week after I made a decision to leave - I had to copy papers and documents for the attorney that I did in the middle of the night - I felt like a robot.  It was almost an out-of-body experience where I completely detached from myself and just woodenly went through all my interactions with my xOCPDh.  I could first time really see him for the undeveloped emotionally stunted control fanatic he is.  It only hardened my resolve.

Here is a thought - get an Airbnb for the week or so after Christmas (a base for the future where you can plan out the next moves).  A home not a hotel room and after the holiday move in with or without the kids.  If you have a home to go to it will be an easier transition for them.  And look good in the courts. 

I don't know if you have said this - but have you consulted an attorney?  Do you know your rights?  I know you said you have recordings but here in my state/country I was told it really didn't matter.  The laws were clear and it was all a 50/50 split.  No emotion no arguing.  Anything brought in during the marriage was split 50/50.  Since I married at 21, I had nothing.  Now, I could have argued harder for certain things and I do suspect he hid money from me - but at some point, I had to stop fighting for my mental health.  I suspect you will need to do that as well. 

As for empaths and being selfish - I use this analogy.  On the airplane when the oxygen masks drop, you put them on yourself before you put them on your kids.  That's the same here - you need to help yourself/protect yourself/nourish yourself before you can help your kids.  Like hhaw said, your brain has been hijacked and it will take a long time before you normalize - like a long time - so be kind to yourself and just get out so you can start to heal.

Finally, I thought about you yesterday and all your posts.  I was driving a long stretch of lonely highway in the dark and rain.  The music was on and my thoughts started to ramble as I passed an exit that provoked a positive memory of a vacation with my x.  Then I started to miss him and miss all the positives that we did have over the past 30+ years.  And we did have some good times.  I had this brief fantasy float in that I would reconcile with him and see his family over the holidays and all would go back to normal.  I had to wrench myself out of that dream - and that is all it was - to the reality of the cycle and what really happens with him over the holidays and the physical, emotional and financial abuse.  I thought if I can have this drifty dream after being away for more than two years - and loving most of every minute of my new life - then that is how difficult it is and was to leave.    The lesson here - I need to be kinder to myself.  Like hhaw says, we empaths have been hijacked and it takes time, patience, and practice in self-compassion to heal.

Peace and hope to you and your family escapingman. 

JustKeepTrying, thank you for you reply.

I have a solicitor, she is trying to push me to file. I know I need to. Only issue is she think I should stay in the house for legal reasons, I don't think I can do that. I am going to have another chat about my position if I leave. My plan, in my head, is to in some way manage Christmas, then file and move out in January. I won't go for an airbnb, but thanks for the suggestion. I think I can get a rental flat reasonable fast, if I have to stay in a hotel for a short term so be it. Could even sort it all out and then go away to visit family before going back straight into the new home.  But, if things go ugly over Christmas, I suppose I must be prepared to call the police and run it from there.

Right now I am feeling quite good, I have been away for a few days and just been on my own. Watched sport, had meals and a few beers. A life miles from what it is with stbx. I have noticed how I can do the exact same trip with stbx as without and it all feels different. It feels like a different world when she is with me. Scary.

Splitting.

The freakiest behaviour.

She treated me like I was a nothing for years, no issue with degrading me and to get the kids in on the act. She told me she could not wait to see me dead, everything I did was wrong and ridiculed. I tell her I want a divorce, and BAAAM, I can't do anything wrong. I ignore her, she tell me how much she loves me. I go away for a few days, she tells me how much she has missed me. I but a new pair of shoes and it's the best pair of shoes she has ever seen. If it wasn't for this forum, all books, you tubes and everything else I might have fallen for it. But I keep pushing back, MC and GR with the occasional slip up (I am only human and sometime I do want to talk to someone), and the more I ignore her the more she pushes. Is it any chance she could have changed? I doubt it, I really doubt it. But the kids are really happy now with all fighting stopped, I can see SG really smile and open up, GC is talking to me and interact, no one is gas lighting her against me (at the moment). How long can she keep this going? Long enough for me to heal and be able to walk with no remorse, or only another couple of hours? My mind is clear, unless something miraculous happens, and with that I am talking about a brain surgeons turning up and say they found the missing wire, I am off. But for the kids sake, the longer I can manage this and for us all to get along without tearing each other apart, the better. It's only 3 months left until the no fault divorce is supposed to be implemented, can I manage until then? Then it doesn't matter if she agrees or not, and with no blame in the divorce maybe it will be a bit easier.  BUT, I don't think for a minute she can stay like this for 3 months, if I could bet money on I would bet she will loose the plot on Christmas day or before.

Thank you all for you support, JustKeepTrying, I am touched you say you were thinking of me. Thanks.

Quote from: escapingman on December 21, 2021, 04:15:33 AM
Is it any chance she could have changed?

Danger Will Robinson!!!

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-05-2016/3umgv3.gif

 :yeahthat:
Stay your course. NOTHING has changed. It's all smoke and mirrors.

Oh yes, I know it is. I am enough Out of the FOG to wanna go back in. She is about to slip, she is stressed about Christmas and if she is doing all she can to be nice to me, who do you think will get it? So, I removed the kids for a few hours and we had a really great time together. We also has another couples therapy session and I am 100% honest, I think she is to, and the worry is that she is validating what I say with acting like she is actually right to behave the way she has done. I think the therapist is adding one and one, but lets see. We are going to see the therapist one on one after Christmas and that will be interesting. I also hope to get my own Therapist soon. The big cloud of FOG is lifting and I can see clearer and clearer. It really helps to take a few days away here and there and just get me time.

And thanks Sinom and losingmyself, but there is no chance I believe she will change (without a brain surgeon). 

EM:

Your stbx would resent/hate/ punish you IF her love bombing behaviors convinced you to stay in the marriage, bc she is seeeething under all that niceness all the time.

Once she gets her way she'll be compelled to punish and make you pay for forcing her to be nice.  How dare you!?!?! 

It's all kinds of disordered and her efforts to gain your compliance will escalate as the divorce count down continues.

You should be asking yourself what possible extent your intuition believes stbx will go to when divorce goes forward, for real.

Right now it's all talk.

Some PD's employ scorched earth policies.  Some don't.  If you're ever afraid she'll set the house afire, hurt someone or herself, etc..... don't ignore it.  Do what you can to head it off and avoid it.

From what you've said, it seems her mother might be a person to steer the stbx toward......as far as stabilizer and caretaker go.

I recognize myself in your last post ....the running thought, one to another.  I was told this is what traumatized brains DO. 

I also recognize a fellow sufferers WORRY WORRY WORRY coping style in that post, which is impossible to stop unless I stop.  Shift focus.  Concentrate on some one other thing and breathing.

Gaining access to logic and reason will help you see the entire field again, identify things you have control so you can focus on solutions and actions to improve and shorten your suffering, ime.

Identifying what you can't change is just as important so you can put them on the shelf and let
them
be.

If it's impossible, KNOW it's just how it feels and your thoughts and feelings aren't reality.  You can change those, direct them and be the master of your reality.....as far as anyone raising children in this chaos can be.....you can do it and turn it into habit, ime.

Your thoughts are so normal, em.  They're also overwhelming and paralyzing and creating fear and bogging you down......robbing you of agency in your life.

Your stbx childlike wife is weilding a boat load of control over your thoughts and I want you to know......you are capable and worthy of blocking her control and restoring equinamity in every moment, decision and small choice.

STBX will escalate her flip flopping PD behaviors, bc that's what they DO.

How you move through this is more about your choices than hers.  Even though it seems unlikely..... it's true and I wish you spaciousness, emotional distance and most of all acceptance of the things creating resistance and worry worry worry in your moments.

I can tell you that you are right, she is seething and she would love to rip me to pieces. I am getting quite a few interesting revelations from her during the therapy sessions and also following them. She has admitted she needs me, I am the only one that can take care of her emotions and calm her when she is upset. Yeah right, she calms herself by verbally abusing me to the extent that I am surprised no neighbour has called the police (we live in a detached house). The more we talk, the more I know I need and want out. Regarding her mum, this is something I have been thinking a lot about. I have always had her down as a PD herself, but I am not sure what she actually is, other than an extremely selfish person. I have however never seen her lose her cool and I think when really looking back the times she has raged is has been set off either by my uNPDw or my late uNPDfil. However, my STBX and MIL have a very weird relation. My STBX is so scared of MIL so she do anything to not let her down. Me and MIL have had many arguments, looking back I think they have been because of the lack of boundary between MIL and STBX and when I have tried to set boundaries STBX have triangulated us against each other. But I don't know, we almost have no contact with her now and it is very superficial. If I involve her, I can see it go two ways. She either be my biggest asset by taking STBX away from me and put her in her box. Or else she will back STBX and become my worst nightmare. So far I am way to worried about the later so I keep her out for now. But if I can give her evidence and tell her to either take STBX and make her stay at hers, or else I drag the lot of them through the mud and put a real police report through. Its all about appearance and MIL would not like her family to be talked about so she would do anything to avoid that. I am however very aware of that doing so would be playing with fire and could back fire spectacular. To add to this we have a highly narcissistic SIL as well that could get the dead wake up when she gets going. I haven't really come across her myself but I have seen her in action from a distance. At the moment STBX and SIL aren't really speaking to each other so hopefully she would not get involved, but who knows with PD's. This is probably the most twisted family I come across, STBX grandmother was a big big Narc as well, she also controlled STBX whenever they saw each other, they didn't speak to each other for 10 years over an incident so small I still laugh about it. But, they both refused to back down.

Just to add one note, I have so much material I could easy write a best selling book with all the incidents. Most people would however think its pure science fiction as it is so unreal what has gone on in my STBX family.

Just to back up what hhaw said about seething and longing to punish you (although I know you already know that's true), here's something that Dr. Tara talked about in one of her videos.

She said that a client of hers had decided to leave or file because of all the toxic narcissistic abuse he'd suffered during his marriage, with kids (something like that), and all of a sudden his wife became a loving, caring and devoted wife.
After 14 months of near bliss, she became pregnant, and suddenly became toxic and nasty and abusive again.
He asked her why she had suddenly changed back into this toxic person, and she remarked "Do you have any idea how hard it's been for me to be nice to you all this time?"

Once she'd got pregnant, she had her hooks in him again, almost certain that he wouldn't leave now, and so there was no need to act any more.
The whole thing was pre-meditated, and she knew exactly how she was going to treat him as soon as she got pregnant.
The fact that he was seeing Dr. T suggests that he did decide to divorce her (or working towards it), but if I remember correctly, she said that the wife had turned his kids against him, one of them was in counselling and was really struggling, and that the wife was currently working on alienating the youngest child from their Dad.
None of that 14 months was real.
It was all a means to an end, and that she was going to make sure he paid the price for wanting to get away.

And I know what you mean about some of the incidents being unreal e.m.
I was only with mine for a year, and the couple of people I trust with the details of my relationship with her sometimes look at me funny when I tell them one of the more ridiculous episodes.
It's like they think I'm embellishing the story for effect, when most of the time I'm actually leaving things out to play it down a little.
And there are some things that I have never told anyone, and sometimes doubt my memories of the incident (until I check my journal I kept for the whole year).

Society has no idea of the Psychological Pandemic that's bubbling under the surface, and that's because it's all too unbelievable.
This stuff should be taught in schools (but that's a topic for another thread).

Quote from: Simon on December 21, 2021, 04:02:16 PM
He asked her why she had suddenly changed back into this toxic person, and she remarked "Do you have any idea how hard it's been for me to be nice to you all this time?"

During the therapy sessions we have had STBX has said several times that she is trying so hard to be nice. She thought I was supposed to be grateful and tap her on the back and say "well done for not abusing me". She has made this clear more than once that she is trying really really hard, and I have asked her why is it so hard to be nice? She can't answer that so I obviously know she is not going to last as soon as she thinks the charade is not needed anymore.

Thanks for sharing the story, very good to read.

EM:

I'm not sure why, but at a point we tend to lose our ability to file police reports and get action IF our stbx isn't all out assaulting us OR is doing it so we can't document it and time went by when we COULD, so....the courts want fresh abuse/assaults.  I think you already watched this happen to you.

You can't just press charges on older assaults, ime.....or get restraining orders.  This leads to one's case getting weaker if one waits for the STBX to do A or B or C.

You believe you stbx and her mother will want to avoid exposure, but I find it brings out their claws......they double down on accusations, make huge victim noises and tell stories you cannot even believe they have the nerve to make up,which complicates and confuses the entire matter, ime.

You want to avoid the He said/She said divorce.  Even as you document and prove your case expect the PDs to manufacture chaos the likes you have never imagined.....
Remember, PDs generally want and attempt to destroy you, your credibility and relationships with everyone (your children) when you have the nerve to expose them.  I honestly believe they're reactive and have no ability to control this reflexive lashing out.  Even small perceived slights expose fangs.  Imagine exposing their abuse.  Terrifying!


PDs honestly feel YOU are the aggressor, YOU attacked them if you hire an attorney and file a divorce...the PD honestly feels attacked.  They use that to justify what they do to "defend" and get you back in compliance.... it's a train wreck.....longer or slower, but an absolute train wreck, ime.  Messy.  Heartbreaking. 

My point is......hesitating to use your evidence seems to dilute it or make it unusable, ime.  The STBX will drag things out, pretend you're the bad guy long enough, actually sound like a victim to the point the courts become confused about your situation, ime......the kids get pretty much zero protection or therapy bc the courts tend to split the baby and give 50/50 everything, despite the PD abuse
If
You
Fail
To
Prove
Your
Case
With
Very
Clear
And
Convincing
Evidence
Without allowing time and stbx chaos manufacture to damage your ability. That's a HUGE if, imo.

A second factor hindering your ability to be heard and put a convincing case forward is......
Your hesitation and willingness to remain in an abusive situation for so long.

People don't understand it.  They doubt it, perhaps dismiss your evidence even, bc the PD conduct is so beezar....people sometimes want to know what YoU DID to the PD to MAKE them behave that way.......so I'm telling you there are ways to sabotage yourself and your case you might consider avoiding.  PD behaviors make no sense.  People need your story to make sense.  I would have tailored a reasonable case based on my evidence and avoided blathering about EVERYTHING the PD did, bc it made me appear unhinged just saying it out loud, so....think about making sense of your lawsuit before filing is good advice.  Always base it on your strongest evidence.

Filing a lawsuit based on evidence you HAVE is a position of strength you can back down from and settle out of court, should the stbx come to her senses.  But you have to put up the goods, ime.

Escalating your case from a very neutral position, as the stbx also escalates the matter, appears more like two parents smearing each other.....the courts punish everyone, ime, esp the kids with bad judgments and Orders failing to protect or provide therapy the stbx doesn't sabotage and control if she fails to control the T.

So....to review, putting together a scathing, airtight case up front SHOWS and justifies your divorce petition and all your requests to protect the kids.

Waiting, trying to avoid a fight or waiting for the stbx to back down to avoid the public shaming has never worked, that I've seen, ever.

It extends suffering, ime.

I saw one poster get the upper hand in his divorce....he did everything right and the courts SAW his truth and reality.  He was able to protect his children.  It was amazing!

I can report we lost contact when he decided to stay in his marriage....for his children.  I saw red flags and danger all around him......it was just a matter of time before his defeated PD harmed or framed him while he was busy raising kids and she was seething every moment of every day inside their shared home, ime.  He saw it differently and I pray he's enjoying peace and raising his kids in harmony, but...... he'd proven to everyone his wife was disordered and I stress it was THAT very clear and concise action affording him any power and choice at all in the matter.

I've never seen waiting pay off.  Bartering and dealing with PDs always ALWAYS leads to weakening our evidence and creating confusion.

You'll still be a good well intentioned human being IF you prove a divorce case up front, without faffing about waiting for the PD to agree, understand, cooperate or avoid a fight, even though the PD and every cell in your body tells you you're a monster for doing what needs doing to end the suffering more quickly.

Standing firm might get protections and therapy for your kids, sheltered from the stbx's sabotage, if you prove your case to SHOW the court WHY your requests are necessary.

Maybe, just maybe then your stbx backs down, bc she's exposed and can't undo what you've proven at that point.

If she has any wiggle room she's going to roll like and alligator with you and the kids tied to her.  It's not personal, em.  It's what PDs DO. If your wife was in her right mind she'd want you to do what you can to protect her children.  Even from her.

You think you're tired.  You can't imagine the escalation if you aren't resolute and focused
On
What
You
Can
Do
Now.

That's prove your case and remove all the wiggle room for stbx.

Everything else is you resisting acceptance .... it's you struggling to change your reality and the PD, ime. Been there.  It's difficult to keep all this reality in focus, all the time. Maybe impossible for empaths.

Your PD is broken.  If she could fix herself she would have.  She can't.  She will always be broken and you can't save her, protect or shield her AND the kids/ yourself.

You have to explain to a court why you put up with her abuse as long as you have.  That's not easy, but you say you did it for your children, to give them a family, bc you thought the abuse would end, but it just got worse.

You prove that abuse and get what you need....put controls in place, hold the stbx's feet to the fire and report all failures to comply with Judge's Orders....while picking your battles and trying to create peace for your children.

I know how crazy that looks from where you're standing.  After all the protecting the PD....of hiding your shame and living in confusion bc you can't understand why the PD is being abusive when you're being so kind and peaceful and loving all those years.  It's hard to BE firm.  To put up and enforce boundaries while the PD shrieks and bucks and behaves like you're throwing holy water on a demon.

It's also horrifying and heartbreaking and something an empath would avoid at all costs if they could, so empaths tend to wait till backs are against walls and all options are lost, ime.  I guess doing less is a choice and sometimes one needs to have their hand forced.  It leads to a weak position in divorce though. 

Just know......the kind cut, in these cases, is the stinkiest cut.  Doing what you can to prove your case up front, with everything you have to provide clarity and gain understanding, is the kindest thing you can do for everyone involved.  It shortens up the process, saves family resources and limits the damage the PD can DO, ime.

If the stbx has access to you ....if she can talk to you, get inside your head things are much messier, difficult, impossible to steer quickly to a final outcome that's better for the kids, bc you'll find it impossible to stand her painful alligator rolls and stay on course.  It will get messy, ime.  And then the mil and sil and flying monkeys start in. Whew boy, lots more pressure on top of pressure.

No one understands how difficult it is to BE an empath caretaking an abusive PD with kids in the middle, but they could if you show them with economy of motion, time and......if you stop the PD controlling ANY aspect of your choices.

You aren't there yet.  How could you be?  It's almost impossible to "get" unless you've been there, admittedly.

When you post about waiting for a no fault divorce.....I know you have hope to avoid a big fight.  Understandable.  Any good parent would want that.  You're a good parent.

But Don't create a huge divorce battle bc you can't stop protecting the PD.  She's going to show you how to throw a spouse and kids to the wolves soon enough, if you do.  By then the courts will see mutual combat and everyone loses, including the kids

I'll close with this .....if you present your evidence with compassion for your stbx....if you ask for her to get T (without expectation) and speak about her without judgment.....
YOU can DO this.  You can keep your kindness in tact while forging ahead with positive change..... but  the stbx will interpret as acid in her face.  You'll have to build a tolerance and hold....hold.....hold.....not jump in to stop her discomfort, bc that extends yours and the kids....the stbx's also.

I believe you'll have to be away from her in order to focus, make a good plan and exit in the best possible way with the best possible outcome for everyone involved.

That said.....we are where we want to be, ime.  If you need to be the nice guy and  protect your stbx..... that will be your path in the divorce.  It will be longer more painful.  It will be more expensive and traumatizing for everyone involved, but it will be what you need to be, bc other choices are intolerable, ime.  That's perfectly reasonable.  We all have our limits.  Best to accept them and know it if it's that's our truthlll
L
.

From one very regretful empath to another.......file the charges without hesitation.  Stand up for yourself and your kids without worry about the stbx, bc she's going to gut your case, your credibility and your sanity if she can and she won't make any mistakes by hesitating.  She will not.  She's committed to relentlessly upend you and the kids, and you're the only person who can limit that harm.  The kids will be terrorized and know their mother's love is conditional.....they likely won't go against her, bc they know your love isn't conditional.  You'll still love them, no matter what.  How terrible to force children to take sides, but your wife built her family in it.  This won't improve unless you force compliance through the courts ....get the kids into Therapy.....keep the stbx OUT if the therapy sessions if you can arrange any at all.

He who hesitates is lost.



Now I understand that saying.  Deeply and painfully.... I have no idea if I could have changed my outcome if someone told me all this before I filed. 

Maybe we're not meant to mitigate the PD harm in divorce?  Maybe it has to play out the way our marriages played? Bc that's who we are in the role.  Trying to tame the PD.  Gain their compliance, unable to accept the truth and so we suffer more, bc suffering less isn't what we need?

I don't know, but I promise I won't keep hitting you over the head with this. 

Trust your instincts.  Don't let the PD confuse you.  Honor yourself, always, and know things will get better.  It's just a matter of more or less time, EM.

If you do it the way most of us did it.....it will still be ok.  Maybe less ok, but ok.

I typically only post at the beginning of the divorce process and the point where settlement discussions are coming up.  I don't believe I can say much to help a divorce gone off the rails.  It's off the rails, on it's own terrible course and I tend to avoid that particular chaos.

Everyone ends up dragged through that.
I sincerely hope you can avoid it.

Thank you hhaw, there is so much value in your posts.

I just had a call with my solicitor where we made a plan, and she confirmed what it would actually mean if I move out. I am OK with that, for now. Plan A is to after Christmas go for a separation, frame it to STBX as a trial and leave her with hope it is just temporary. Then for me to recover and heal for a few months and to go for the no fault divorce. But, if things go ugly over Christmas be prepared to escalate and take whatever action is needed. This will still be hard, but if I can manage to get out of the house and get some rest and healing before the upcoming war I will benefit. But my gut feeling is all hell will break lose over Christmas, it has always before so why would this year be any difference?

At least I have my options and that gives me some kind of comfort.

Quote from: escapingman on December 19, 2021, 04:25:21 PM
I have a solicitor, she is trying to push me to file. I know I need to. Only issue is she think I should stay in the house for legal reasons, I don't think I can do that.

It has been many weeks since I've posted anything to your threads, but I've been following along and am glad to see that you are slowly pulling yourself Out of the FOG.

I'm curious, what is the legal reason your solicitor thinks you will be better off staying in the house?

From a non-legal standpoint, getting out immediately sounds like the best for your's and your children's mental/emotional/physical well-being and, indeed, safety.

Wishing you continued progress on your path...

Quote from: DetachedAndEngaged on December 22, 2021, 06:57:10 AM

Quote from: escapingman on December 19, 2021, 04:25:21 PM
I have a solicitor, she is trying to push me to file. I know I need to. Only issue is she think I should stay in the house for legal reasons, I don't think I can do that.

It has been many weeks since I've posted anything to your threads, but I've been following along and am glad to see that you are slowly pulling yourself Out of the FOG.

I'm curious, what is the legal reason your solicitor thinks you will be better off staying in the house?

From a non-legal standpoint, getting out immediately sounds like the best for your's and your children's mental/emotional/physical well-being and, indeed, safety.

Wishing you continued progress on your path...

I spoken to the solicitor today and cleared all this up, I am now confident I can move out. There were 2 reasons the solicitor wanted me to stay in the house, first one was for the kids sake, which I now know is void as we are better off with me out. The second is for financial reasons and that stbx potentially could delay and delay and delay to stay in the house. I am prepared to take that risk now, I just need out.

EM,

I continue to read along quietly regarding your situation and imo, it seems you've been in this same position before, possibly a couple times.  I understand time and continued experience can be a good teacher regarding repetitive experiences to solidify our perceptions.  Also imo, PD's are high-radar (sensitive) to subtleties of our choices and therefore our choices alone, can speak volumes, not only to a PD, but to ourselves. 

Therefore, in the past, your choice for "I just need out" has been a hotel. Imo, the choice of your "out" residence speaks volumes to your intent, both with your PD and to yourself!  A hotel speaks 'temporary' and gives yourself an easy-out to return home to your uPDw once again.  I want to suggest to you that you make a firmer commitment to yourself, and (covertly arrange to avoid manipulation from your uPDw), arrange a lease of a small apartment/flat; large enough for you and your children to recognize you acquired space big enough for them to stay, even though they will probably remain with their mother at first for a variety of reasons. 

A commitment to a lease is also a mental commitment to yourself to stick with the joint decision (you + the solicitor) made.  I don't know the laws of your country, but the choice for a temporary 'trial' of separation may be advised by your solicitor for legal reasons (avoid a charge of abandonment for example) or if not, your solicitor is simply playing along to your desires to 'ease' yourself and your uPDw into separation, but that is imo (if not a legal move) catering (caretaking actually) to your wife, when not necessary, to avoid an overly harsh reaction by her.   

Even if (b/c of your country's laws) your solicitor is suggesting a trial-period for legal reasons, you can possibly sign a 6 or 12 month lease.  Imo, this alone speaks volumes to yourself and your uPDw, as well as your children.  Acquiring enough room for them to stay/visit, also tells them you are not abandoning them, but actually looking forward to some alone time with them, letting them know they are highly loved and planned-for.  Not sure if the kids are in school or physically attending (b/c of Covid) and how they transport, but if yes, the location of your leased apartment/flat can also be highly convenient to their school, in the event they need to stay with you. 

SoT

Thank you SoT. To make a move us more to caretake of me than uNPDw or by law. I can mentally not stay in the same house as her, I even when I am MC and GR I can see and hear her and still be on edge. 2 months of me not engaging in her drama has had a massive and positive effect on my relation with the kids, I value that the most. When filing stbx will try to ruin that. The plan I have and the various options are with me in mind and not her? But I need to be prepared to adjust depending on what toys she throws at me, but it's nothing I can preempt and manage beforehand.

escapingman,

It's reassuring to see that you have steps and a plan in place.  Following all of your posts across the boards and you have had quite the journey Out of the FOG.  I pray that you remain committed to your course of action for yourself and your children.  If you feel this bad with your wife, then your children are in the same situation and just as confused.

hhaw has several wise points.  Please read over her posts again and again as you move through the holidays.  Take steps to leave in your own home to reinforce your commitment like organizing the paperwork you will need.  Catalog the items in the house that you want to divide after you file.  Look online at apartment/Airbnb long rentals.  These actions can be done quietly without her knowledge and keep you grounded during the chaos.  They will also make you feel like your moving forward.

PIece of advice, wherever you land after you leave, make sure it's in the children's school district.  That way you demonstrate to the courts you are committed to maintaining a family.

:bighug:

Question to everyone, I am so tired of uNPDw. I actually despise her and don't care about her feelings anymore. I am so past caretaking of her so I just walk away when she starts her drama. I was just watching some tv on my own and she came in and tried to get my attention, I ignored her,  she got narky and I just told her to get lost. She stormed out and slammed the door. Is this me healing, or is it me getting back in to drama? I didn't feel anything than relief when I told her to sling her hook. She obviously came back 5 minutes later to try to get me into her room to watch tv, which I again declined.

Maybe my decision earlier today and to confirm it to someone (solicitor) could have pushed me further Out of the FOG? I don't know, but I wish and I pray I can just tell her that we are over and good bye. Cause if I don't care anymore, what hold does she have on me? Kids, yes I know, but that would make no difference whatever anyway.

I don't love her anymore, I love the one I thought she was, I am just done here. Thank you.

This description reminded me of your wife and how she has such a narrow range of responses to any situation - basically rage or fawn, and try it over and over even if it hasn't worked.

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=90089.0

I have essentially a list of things to do before suddenly moving out of a house with a pwPD in it without warning. Applicable to your situation are the following: secure all your IDs, important documents, sensitive work stuff, and vital records if you have not already done so.

Over on the PD parents subforum there are many stories of PD parents burning or destroying those items when a child suddenly moved out. I can totally see you wife pulling a similar stunt if you make your exodus suddenly on Christmas or the day after. So today... I'd track down and squirrel those items away.

I'm glad you got your options sort and have a more concrete plan now.

Echoing Andrea.....
Secure any precious items....like baby pictures and family heirlooms you care about, em.  Be prepared to let everything you leave in the house go when you leave, bc your stbx will likely destroy or hold Ransome anything she thinks you care about.

I have been thinking about your last messages, I think I have all photos on digital media and for the rest, I am not sure anything in the house is of any sentimental value for me. uNPDw has treated the house like a show home and it is almost sterile, I have a box in the garage with my old memories, not looked at them for 20 years so not sure how much I really care about them. Other precious items are still at my parents, if they survived their spring cleans. I am still in 2 minds if I should just file and stay or go. I have started to really see how much uNPDw's behaviour is affecting GC, it's getting so bad I almost feel tempted to throw stbx out the house and never let her see the kids again. We had an incident yesterday with something GC said, I am not sure I can even put it in writing as I am shivering. But I need to protect her from further damage. I feel reasonable comfortable I SG will be fine, she can see, but GC. I am working on her and give her as much love I can whatever she do, I feel I am becoming closer to her but she is such a caretaker for her mums feelings it is frightening. She puts her mum before herself. GC can be in tears and cry because something her mum has done, I try to comfort her and if I say anything she can slightly think is a negative thing about stbx GC will defend her mum instead of letting her own feelings be. I am struggling with that, but I am trying.

Yesterday STBX again tried to be intimate with me, pushed her away again as feeling sick of just looking at her. She immediately started complaining about how mean I am and it's Christmas and so on. All I can see is the previous abuse and the current emotional abuse of the kids. How many times can I say no before I really need to scream no in her face? This must be some kind of circular she is doing coming back to the same all the time trying to get me to change that no to a yes.

EM:

What is the plan for getting your children into therapy and protecting them going forward?

They aren't protected now. 

If you create a safe environment for them to decompress and feel safe....THAT is everything, ime.  There's a narrow window of opportunity to intervene and positively impact for maximum healing and growth through the dysfunction, ime.

The kids are crushed in this adult conflict and you can SEE the harm, watch the red flags fly, hear the evidence of active trauma inflicted daily.

You're miserable, under high pressure, suffering...... everyone in your household is suffering.

What is it you believe you gain when you put off filing, EM?

What could be gained from filing?

Try to focus on the plan to make yourself and children safe.....not on the chaos the stbx will create.  You're already IN chaos. 

Whatever the best possible plan to protect your kids and self......get it together with your attorney and child advocate services to put it in motion, make your kids as safe as you can, EM.

You're under tremendous pressure.  Your children are dialed into everything going on between you and their mother. 

Your children won't have a safe or peaceful Christmas, even if you don't file.

What actions serves your mission to get your children the healing and support they need?







.

Very good questions hhaw, I think I have some answers.

What is the plan for getting your children into therapy and protecting them going forward?

Currently no firm plan, but as soon as I am out I will try to get them both into therapy. I hop my own therapist when I start therapy can guide me in how to do this best.

What is it you believe you gain when you put off filing, EM?

Time hhaw, time. I am scared. When filing she will do all she can to turn those kids against me, I am trying to get into a good space with the kids before the smearing starts up again. STBX threatened about this, I am sure she is capable of it so my fear took over. But I will have to get out one way or another very soon,

What could be gained from filing?
Everything would be gained, it needs to be out there in the open. But I need to really be prepared for the war before this temporary truce ends.

What actions serves your mission to get your children the healing and support they need?
At the moment I am validating their feelings and show them how much I love them. Next step is to get them out of the control of stbx, at least for some of the time. Then get them therapy or someone to talk to, this is something the professionals will have to help me with.

At the moment I am just counting the minutes and breathe. Last night after everyone had gone to bed I sat for an hour just breathing looking out of the window. It was peaceful and calm. I can see the cycle starting up again, stbx has started to devalue us all slightly and is highly stressed. She will erupt in rage today or tomorrow, it is not a matter of if it is a matter of when. When that happens I need to be prepared. My solicitor is having 2 weeks off during Christmas, but has told me to contact her if anything goes bad and she will help from her side.

I filed right at Christmas, EM.  It harmed  my ability to get protections, bc I didn't understand how the system works....dismissive egomaniacs representing me......scratching opposing counsel's back, unwilling to ask for TRO " bc it was Christmas." Thinking of their own comforts, not my children's safety.

It sounds like you have a better informed attorney advocate who understands your situation.

My advice is...... document all stbx threats....choose a moment to file based on the very worst, then GO. Lead with an undeniable truth everyone can understand.  As a fellow empath,  I wouldn't call the police until things were very dire, which means I failed to call them on the front end and paid a dear price.  Many dear prices.  Too dear.

I had this deeply held self inflicted "duty" to shield my small daughters, which, looking back......was an impossible mission I failed at over and over, but by degrees and always while fretting and roiling and suffering myself....things got darker and more complicated and confusing as I hesitated and hoped for peace.

What I learned is.....well....
I guess I can use the bandaid yank analogy here.  Had I just outed the ASPD N, up front, instead of protecting him ( while believing I did it for our children) I would have skipped over the first 8 months of legal circus with killer clowns running the show, imo.

I would have had more control, more say and more actual ability to protect the children and get them support to act as advocates in court as well ....but I couldn't see that far down the road.   

Your children aren't dumb.  They understand the terrible struggle , likely better than you know.  They will benefit from a frank explanation when things begin in the legal system.....age appropriate, of course.

They will benefit from the instruction to ignore the adult struggle while tending to their own business, imo.  Mum will be ok, even though she's making sad choices and including the kids in adult things...... she'll be ok just like they will.....and dad too. 

Whatever consequences your system has for dragging the kids in, alienating them and harming them with this type of domestic abuse ( witnessing abuse does as much harm to children) I suggest you press it, without hesitation and proactively rather than reactively.   You come from a position of strength the stbx will take, if you allow it.  Been there, done that.  It invites escalation which leads to much darker places than you live now, ime.  You'll wish you avoided that darker place if you don't.

So......exposing the PD's abuse, letting her feel the weight of her actions.....even if the children must witness THAT train wreck......police, child protective services, a big fight when you go.....
allowing that train wreck hopefully is the last big train wreck in front of your kids.  It's a fine goal, to be sure.  Intention is EVERYTHING.

The PD will be set straight by her attorney and possibly the jailer which will be the first time she understands you won't be bullied into compliance THIS time.

All she knows, for sure, is that you'll cave sooner or later, bc you always have.   It's just a matter of when........not IIF as far as she kknows.

Once you take matters out iof the dark, where she abuses at will while you cringe and suffer for and with your children......there can be consequences leading to protections and perhaps the PD getting real help to stop the abusive behaviors, ime.

So.....the bandaid.  I Yanked without the fear and hesitation.  It's better, ime.

My point is...... you're giving up your power to the stbx, bc she frightens you and makes it impossible to reason or cope with "more" than is on your plate.

I want you to know.... the "more" isn't worse than you're dealing wwith now.
It's not ideal or good or bad...... it's what leads to " better."
. That's all it is.  The path to feeling better.
Like taking off the bandaid so a wound can receive light and air.
 
Ahem....

You ARE stronger than you ttthink. Intention is to shield and protect children and self.  To begin the healing.....let the air and light in. 

Yes, the stbx will involve the girls and try to alienate them, but realize.....the worse she does, the easier it will be for a good crisis intervention Therapist to understand what ongoing harm your children are suffering.... so protection becomes more likely.
  Sometimes bad things lead to better outcomes, ime..  try not to jjudge.

There will be a chance for consequences of abuse.  There will be witnesses and advocates and court officers standing up for you ur children...standing up against the sstbx if you don't get in the way or draw negative attention to yourself.

You CAN do your ur best the SEE your situation and stbx through the filters of board members you trust, through your attorneys eyes.....and do what feels counter intuitive, based on your Nervous System and history.
  New choices are sscary. 
Not knowing what comes next is ppainful, ime. 

Pull the bandaid to get a leg up, for your children's sake.  There are domestic violence advocates and hotlines and Therapists specializing in helping children in crisis.  Find them.  Call them.  Make appointments and line them up within the framework of your exit strategy if you can.

Finding your center means you can keep the filters of calmer more experienced people in place when the stbx does what PDs DO.

SEE her wounded child self and BE the good enough parent..... dropping judgment of her....embracing all the protections available to you.

Right now your stbx is calling the shots, ruling your household and nervous system and those of your children.  Think if that.... An out if control toddler with zero ability to regulate her emotions is terrorizing you and ythe kids.

At that point you'll be driven to file divorce by eemotion
That's why making the best plan with professionals is so dire.  You step under their umbrella of reason and logic....are sheltered by it...standing in their light where the stbx can't lash out without exposing herself.

Use our filters and the best professionals you can find.  Put together cabinet members and rely on them instead of reacting in fear, without reason.

Allowing the stbx to have you and the girls in private, behind closed doors subjects you to ongoing interpersonal terrorism you have the power to limit or perhaps stop.

Don't hate your stbx.  She's a broken child doing what she's always done.  It's not personal...... it's terrible coping strategies from her childhood running amok in adult life and you have the power to rise above and mitigate the harm with compassion.

You aren't initiating war by filing.  You're doing the very best you can to limit the harm and get your wife help for her abusive behaviors.

WE see it so clearly.  Stop listening to the stbx and see her/ hear her through our filters....if you can.

Yes, there will be huge discomfort in filing.  Yes, you can sit with it and let it be....without judging it.  Get curious about what's behind it and pay attention to what comes up.

You can't DO this important inner work with the stbx sucking all the oxygen out of your lungs and Nervous System....listening to your children be pushed and pulled......children are very much harmed by kindness and cruelty delivered without rhyme or reason by an unstable parent.  Your girls require support and help understanding their mother is......our crisis therapist used the word "sick" to describe my ASPD's toxic behavior.  Children understand "sick" and it doesn't judge....it just speaks truth without confusion.

Once you've filed you can all learn how to cope with your stbx's dismal coping strategies, bc you will never control thwm.....only understand, create spaciousness around them and learn to shield your precious hearts and minds which will serve you for a lifetime.

Your girls can come out if this with wisdom and knowledge rather than brokeness and dysfunction as the only model for "normal" relationships, fily and parenting.

As I've written before, there's a limited window if opportunity to intervene, protect and teach/heal/provide education and bring understanding to forge your daughters' pain into knowledge and....
most importantly....
reinstall the wiring for your daughters' access to intuition and permission to honor themselves, put up appropriate boundaries and enforce them without feeling ashamed, guilty or bad, etc.

Right now you see the suffering you can't avoid, bc the stbx us UN your head and physical space.

Soon a good T will help you create space and the ability to calm yourself so you see the path to serenity and healing....the path to helping your girls learn to navigate their mother's " mental illness, sickness, unhealthy coping strategies." Get help naming it, bc it needs to be named, explained and overcome with knowledge and learned healthy strategies....... everything can change, EM.

Do not fear, but lean into the discomfort with curiosity and suspended judgment.  Resist judging....just pay attention to your inner world and sit with it....without acting, bc you've been lead by seeking/avoidance behaviors for so long.....you can't change anything by doing what you've always done.  Acting to avoid discomfort in the short term.

Your new plan will rrelieve your discomfort in the long-term.....create safe space for your girls too understand and process all the trauma and ongoing dysfunction of their broken parent while the one good endoughp arent models boundaries, healthy coping strategies and discipline they have the chance to learn and adopt for themselves.....but the window gets narrower, EM.

All the lanterns held up by those who've gone before you......please calm yourself and SEE the possibility.  The spaciousness for healing and processing, bc you can DO this.  It won't be perfect, forget perfect.

It will be the beginning of choice and teaching your children......you don't have to be hostages.  Create a new normal FOO model while you still can, EM.

TThis too shall pass.

Hhaw, wow. That is alot of text. I don't have time to read it right now but will as soon as I can put my feet up for 15 minutes (if ever).

So far Christmas is going pretty much as expected and make my decision to end this clear. Yesterday she lost it about the cream fir the pudding, she asked us if we wanted pouring cream or whipped cream. Noone was that bothered so we all said we don't mind. She kicked off because she wanted whipped cream, that noone said no to. She had an argument with GC about it and when I tried to calm it and tell stbx to back down GC quickly turned on me to be in the same team as stbx. I can't live like this, neither can the kids.

EM:

It's something to read in case you find yourself alone and in crisis over the holiday.  When you file, you file and it will be ok.

Hhaw, thanks for your amazing text.

STBX has shown her colours, I knew she would but I feel kind of relieved as it proves me right. I am thinking about the plan now and what my aim is, obviously getting the kids safe is priority, but I have zero compassion for STBX now and I will not do anything rash. April is the date in my mind of filing at latest, I will get my T in a month or two hopefully so would start therapy before then. We are also entering separate sessions with out couples counsellor, not sure how much I can tell her and how much she already realised. I actually don't want to move out, I want the house and for the kids to stay with me in the house. This will be a challenge, but doable, if playing the cards right. SG has really sussed out STBX and she knows exactly what is going on. I am not sure with GC but I have a feeling she is seeing the light as well.

Quote from: escapingman on December 25, 2021, 07:39:46 AM
I can't live like this, neither can the kids.

I've seen you write this many times, which indicates you can and are living like this and can continue, perhaps indefinitely.

Now you have put off your plan of filing until April, and don't have plans to move out.

Have you contemplated long and hard what you get out this arrangement as it is now? What about it fulfills some of your deep needs as much as it doesn't meet others?

I've been an observer of your threads far more than a participant, but I've been wondering for a while if this online community is enabling you to stay mired in the PD FOG more than the opposite.

I say this from a place of empathy and caring. I had to take an extremely hard look at myself and own up to my part in making continual decisions to endure PD abuse and instability before I decided to act decisively.

You may be much more comfortable with the existing situation that you realize. If you acted to extricate yourself from your marriage and stopped getting such a continual supply of sympathy here for your misery because the conditions of your life improved, would you be happy?

I don't know what you should do. But I think waiting for the no fault law and fighting for the house *could* be a rational plan.

DetachedAndEngaged, thanks for you input but you are far far from the reality. Since I found this community, I have moved further and further Out of the FOG. I am certainly not here for sympathy, not at all, validation yes, and validation helps moving further out the FOG. Since I went to see a solicitor a few months ago, spoke to the doctors, the police, social services, therapist I have come so far. When I started all this, I had no idea what to do other than that I can't continue in the same way as I did. For every day I am moving slightly further away from my STBX, I actually feel revolted just by looking at her and hearing her voice. I have been completely isolated with her, especially during covid, I have been completely on my own and just to speak to someone about the situation has helped immense. I have spoken to a few friends, not told them any details as I just dont think they would understand. No, I don't feel comfortable living like this. Today I stayed in bed to lunch as I could not face getting out and spend time with her. Putting the filing off to April isn't me putting this off, it's just a matter of common sense. If I can file in January and risk having to be dragged through the courts, or wait until April and there is nothing she can do to stop it I think 3 months wait is a very little sacrifice to do. But, equally I am prepared to file in January and to try to get her our of the house. But, I don't think I am prepared to just go and leave everything to her. I am enough Out of the FOG to be able to cope with her misery for some time. During the 3 months I can stay away as much as possible (worktrips for work) and start proper healing with therapist(s) and lifestyle changes (training, massages, diet, quit alcohol etc). But I will always be aware of the need for pressing the panic button and file and possible get her out or me out the house. As many others have said, what actually happens cannot be decided by me as PD's are uncontrollable and I really dont know how she will react.

I am daydreaming about a life without her, and I really can say that I can't wait to start it. I cannot look at how she abuses the kids anymore, that can only stop by us being separated. But I need to get this right, not to panic and react emotionally, it has to be done as controlled as possible. I need to stay calm. She will not. She is losing it right now. She is panicking.

I feel I like to respond further to DetachedAndEngageds message.

I have used this, and my other threads in this section to gain both feedback and validation as help and advice and also getting my thoughts down so I can go back and read them at a later stage. I could probably go on forever like this, or at least until I die a premature death. But for the sake of the kids I have to do something. I have planned this "escape" for years but it's not possible to plan when living in the drama. But for every twist, every time she manage to change my mind, every time I change my mind, I am getting one step further to the exit door. Reading lots of other stories as well I am somewhere very mindful in a way SoT describes to lose it all to a fighting PD. Fortunately I have no employees to think of, but I have worked really hard to be where we are financially and it hurts to risk it all. We were supposed to have a comfortable life from about now with no money worries, but this will all be thrown up in the air with a divorce, especially a divorce I might not have much control over. If I can control it as much as possible up front the better my chances are. What are another 3 months in the big picture if that means she can't fight me in court? But I am very aware and if it has to be done I will do it earlier. I am also very curious to what our couples therapist will say when I have a one on one with her.

But, I am sure you are aware how difficult it is to leave a PD? I know I need to, I know I want to, but still.......

EM:

You're likely going to have a court battle with the stbx whether you want it or not.

Think about what stbx and her mother will feel about your request for the family home and custody of your  daughters.

What would that reality reflect back on stbx, as a mother, wife and "normal" person?  On her mother? 

My mind goes straight to offers the stbx would find more appealing than her standing in her community AND you taking her role as trusted primary caregiver and custodial parent.

You're still outing her, exposing her abuse, asking the court to support TAKING HER HOME and them's fight'n  words to a PD, ime. 

A no fault divorce means you don't have to prove anything in a divorce trial, but how does your attorney think child custody and sorting assets will go?

In the US we often settle custody or divide assets and still have to fight one or the other to get to the final divorce decree.  Very complicated and set up by attorneys for attorneys to make money. 

Maybe your attorney feels the divorce issue simplifies things by a third or half?
You're still going to be fighting the same battle, proving the same issues whether there's a no fault status change in divorce law or not, ime, bc if the custody issue.

And.....maybe you still hold out hope your wife will settle out of court to avoid the evidence against her coming out.

I have no confidence in that plan since you were told you don't have evidence to remove her from the home at this time......bc she's been more careful and not rushing to levels warranting her removal. Waiting meant you lacked evidence to DO that NOW.

That's a huge red flag, ime.  It means the window of opportunity has passed, bc you didn't act during the abuse rising to levels warranting her removal and prosecution, which is your best chance to maybe get her into counseling......maybe.

And now you have to explain why you kept the girls in this abusive situation so long after contacting the authorities.  When do you become an enabler in this?  I forget the word used in courts here, but I'm confused about what you gain by waiting till April to file. 

Are you trying to document the higher level of abuse?  Again?  To have something useful, bc that I understand.

If that's the case, we document through the police here.  Reporting immediately, filing charges and following through is how victims document and improve their chances of being heard and understood by the courts, ime. 

I think DetachedAndEngaged, like myself, was worried that you were getting caught up in the fog again.
It's happened to all of us to some degree.

Two months before I was discarded, I was all set to break off my relationship with my BPD ex three times in a week.
Each time at the start of my journey home, I had all the energy and motivation to make a clean break.
By the time I got home from a long commute each time, my energy and resolve seemed intact, but looking back, I think I was wishing I didn't have to break up with her (because of the "good times" in the beginning), and when I got home, half hour of her love-bombing me (because she seemed to sense it each time) and I was hooked once again.

And we've seen you do the same thing many times on these forums too.
It's good that you wrote it all down here, because you can read it again to yourself, and see it for yourself.

But I think the thing that made me think "uh oh" this time was the April date.
Is there a reason it's so far away?
I seem to remember that there might be some law that helps you if you wait til then, or was that someone else's thread?
If that is the case, then that's probably the plan to go with.

If it's not, then why April?
Without a good legal reason, that suggests she's wearing you down, or the fear is getting to you.
You already mention money.
If that has to be sorted, then I can understand why you're being careful, but if it doesn't require waiting til April, then maybe you need to ask yourself why you've chosen a date so far away.

Again, if April is a legal decision that will allow you to gain some advantage for the divorce, then that's the way to go.
Just trying to explain why, without knowing if that is the case, it seems like you are being pulled back in for more abuse.

Wanting out and getting out are two different things.
The other day. you mentioned hating (or resenting, can't remember) your wife because of the way things are.
I felt the same way about my ex.
I remember walking through a shop, walking behind her, looking at the back of her head and thinking to myself "God, I hate you!"
That's a horrible thing to think about someone, let alone someone that you're in a relationship with, but there I was, thinking it.
I've never hated anyone in my life before.
And despite that and all my plans to leave, I still couldn't.
She pushed just the right buttons, so that I thought it was my decision to stay.
And the only reason I got out was because she discarded me for someone else.
The sense of relief that day was enormous, which shows just how much I wanted out.
But they're very good at what they do.

And my relationship was a lot less complicated than yours; a lot less at stake.

I think we all know that whether you leave now or in four months, things are going to get bad, and she will go into narc rage overdrive, so getting everything ready for that, especially the money, the accommodation plans and the children are a must.
Just be sure that any push-back of dates is required rather than convenient.

We're all hoping for a good outcome for you.

Simon and hhaw, thank you so much for your messages.

I start with the April date, here in the UK there is a no fault divorce law that comes into place (confirmed by my solicitor)  which means I can file for any reason I want and she can't stop it. Before then she can refuse to accept fault and then go into courts to see if a divorce will be granted or not. This before starting the discussions about assets and custody. If I can avoid one of three fights I do it in a hearth beat. She will never agree to a fault based divorce, as she is faultless (uNPD), so if I wait I avoid one battle. Battle 2, the assets is almost always a 50/50 split so that should be reasonable easy. Although she will feel entitled to all of the assets but I think it will be OK. I would like the family home, but it is not a deal breaker for me. I can setup a new home close by. The third battle, the kids..... this is the real battle and this is a complete unknown for me. I have no idea what she would try and want. This is the battle will need to put all my energy on, this is the important one. If she thinks I want custody, she will try to get full custody herself. If she thinks I want her to have custody, she will try to let me have them. It's gonna be a poker game and it will drain me.

Last point, I am not being dragged back into the FOG. I am struggling even looking at her.

Ah, that law was what I remember reading about, and it was on this forum somewhere.
For me, waiting makes perfect sense then.
As long as you can hold out that long, and you can protect the kids.
I appreciate how difficult that must be for you right now.

As for the kids during the divorce, that's where hhaw's advice will be invaluable.
They've been there, done that.

It's going downhill, fast!

She kicked off and shouted at SG, then went in to the lounge and shouted at GC following this she came and expected me to back her up and ended up shouting at me as well. One hour later she wants to play family games and turned GC against me pretending all this is my fault. SG is now reluctantly playing games with them.

So short answer, I cannot wait until April. It has to be done now!

EM, my apologies if you've already mentioned it, but what ages are your children?

My understanding is that the older children are the more the court is influenced by their desires regarding who they live with.

AOD

Kids are 11 and 13. They are now laughing their heads off playing games with STBX, this is an hour after both where crying for being shouted at by her.

My H has described the feeling of relief and hope when his father would stop raging and start hoovering his family back in.

I am so angry right now, it's definitely the Amygdala talking and telling me to fight. I am sitting in my office shaking of anger, if I was a PD I would have gone in and ripped her head off. But I am not. Trying to calm myself down, counting the minutes, doing anything to not enter the room where they are. All I want is to drag her out the house by her neck, but I know that is not wise. This is desperate stuff now, I haven't felt like this for a long time, clearly she thinks she is fine going back to her old ways. More fool her. I HATE HER!

escapingman

You obviously can't wait until April.  And I am unclear why April even when you mentioned it earlier - I can not understand any law where they would make one wait to file - no fault or not.  There are always options and if your lawyer isn't clear, find another stat.

As for the kids, they are old enough that the courts will take their opinion into account.  Your evidence is where it will be helpful so document NOW.  If pushed on why you waited to file in regard to potentially putting your children, you can point to your joint therapy as an attempt to keep your family together.  Also arrange NOW for therapy for your children.  Get them appointments TOMORROW and that will reflect positively on you.

Finally, and please please please take this to heart, give up on the house and money and things, just go.  Take the kids with you and go.  Don't escape for a few days by yourself because it is escalating and the cycles are getting shorter ime.  She can read you and that explains the shorter cycles.  She knows she can't manipulate any longer so just get out while you are all safe.

This is the dangerous time.  For both of you.  Please please please go now.

 :yeahthat:

Input from the kids will be VERY tricky because of GC. I hope EM can fight for maximum custody without putting GC in a position where she will likely fold.

Quote from: square on December 27, 2021, 06:31:39 PM
Input from the kids will be VERY tricky because of GC. I hope EM can fight for maximum custody without putting GC in a position where she will likely fold.

After STBX shouted at both SG and GC and made them both cry, and I did not back STBX in telling the kids off and STBX shouted at me instead.... GC came and started shouting dickhead etc at me. So, yes I know, I have no chance as long as I am in the same house. I doubt GC would say a bad word about her mum, to anyone, whatever. SG is scared of saying a bad word, she thinks GC will find out and therefor end up in trouble.

I just need to realise, this will get ugly, and I will need to start the real fight now.

Her reward for calling you dickhead (no words btw...) is to get out of the line of fire and restore her mother's love.

An incredibly sick dynamic.

It's ok, btw, to set limits on that behavior. Don't tolerate it just because you know it's stbx's sick game. I know it won't keep the peace but neither is YOUR DAUGHTER CALLING YOU THAT. You can set kind and firm limits, and keep in mind that you haven't lost just because she keeps doing it. Your MESSAGE that THIS ISN'T OK is something to be implanted over time.

Quote from: square on December 27, 2021, 07:11:21 PM
Her reward for calling you dickhead (no words btw...) is to get out of the line of fire and restore her mother's love.

An incredibly sick dynamic.

It's ok, btw, to set limits on that behavior. Don't tolerate it just because you know it's stbx's sick game. I know it won't keep the peace but neither is YOUR DAUGHTER CALLING YOU THAT. You can set kind and firm limits, and keep in mind that you haven't lost just because she keeps doing it. Your MESSAGE that THIS ISN'T OK is something to be implanted over time.

I am aware of that GC insult me and swears at me to get into the same team as STBX. That is actually the main reason I decided I need out and was the last straw. She has been thought very well by STBX that it is OK to be mean to me and how to be mean. GC is a completely different child when STBX is not around.

This morning STBX is giving me the silent treatment, funny she think that is a good idea as she has been begging me for the last 2 months to give the marriage another chance. I knew she would fail, and she did. I think as others have said, I have 2 urgent missions. 1 to file for divorce and 1 to find a home to rent. Until I manage to get out the house I probably have to play the silent treatment game with her as much as possible. I don't want to end up in any arguments or rows with her, the only one winning them is the one that fights dirty (STBX). But I am still astonished about how she can be so desperate to keep me and the marriage going and then behave in exact the way I have told her would lead to filing.

WTF do I do know? She has happily turned both kids against me, telling them fairy tales about how horrible I am. All I want to do is to go an smash her head in. I am not going to do that. But how can I save the kids when they side with her? I tried to talk to GC and she smirked at me laughing  at me and told me to F Off. I really can't manage anymore. I honestly don't think I ever hated someone as much as I hate STBX right now. Right now I feel I just going to pack my stuff in the car tomorrow and then just leave and never go back. She has won, she has broken me. I think this is the only way as I won't trust myself doing something to her, she is the nastiest meanest person I have ever met in my entire life.

Quote from: escapingman on December 28, 2021, 03:50:56 PM
But how can I save the kids when they side with her?

You have said yourself that the kids are totally different when stbx is not around.  That will improve a hundred fold in your own house separate from her.

You're just prolonging the agony by stalling.  You've already dropped the gauntlet of war by announcing your intention to divorce, no amount of strategizing is going to make it go smoothly.  If you're going to follow through with the divorce, the biggest favor you could do for your kids is rip off the band aid and get on with it.

escapingman,

I sense this is a good release valve for you posting here and we do have your back.  We have all been there and are there.  It is hard to read sometimes your posts because I remember very vividly how I felt in those years and months leading up to that awful day I did leave.  So if we sound short, or read short, it's because we care and support you and want the best outcome for you and the girls.

As for the girls, I have three children and two daughters.  They did side with him for the first two years and I finally have some connection with them beginning again this past few months.  I was given the advice that I need to approach them as children, not mention their father's behavior, and be a ballast.  Eventually they would see it for what it is - and they do somewhat.  But what child wants to admit that their father is crazy?  All you can do is provide a stable home and they will eventually see that over time.

It sounds like an untenable situation so tomorrow (I know there is a time difference so it just might be today) go find a place.  Now.  Call the lawyer on the phone and draw up the papers.  Just do it.  No more holding back.  When you make those concrete steps you will find a release and the beginning of peace. The hatred will come and go (I still get spurts of it) but taking concrete steps will help.  Right now your anger is with her and yourself - therapy will help with that as well.

Also, I said it before - make appts for therapists for your daughters.  ASAP.  Again, just do it.  When you begin to take control of your life you will feel immensely better.

Let her spin and spin.  Just don't let her spin you out.

I am tired, so tired. To get the kids against you when all you have done is put yourself in firing line to protect them is destroying me. I get it, but it doesn't make it any easier. If they can get a couple of hours of un and games with uNPDw on the expense of me, they take it. They know I am still there tomorrow, but they don't know when the next time uNPDw will be fun again. I get it, but it still doesn't make it any easier.

My solicitor is off during Christmas, I think she is back working next week. She told me to email her if things went really bad, I might do that, but there won't be any difference if we file this week or next. I also need to agree a new plan with her, last time we spoke I suggested I wanted to wait until April with filing but move out in January. Now my immediate priority is to file next week to not lose anymore time. I will also start looking for a flat, not sure how quick that will be. But before then I need to take stock of items in the house and secure them. Maybe I can hire a storage temporary and move my possessions to, get some online storage to send all important documents, work and photos to. Then whilst looking for a flat stay out of her way as much as possible, create work trips or whatever until I have a home. I am going to get on with hunting for that straight away.

Thank you all for all your support, I really am in a dark space right now. You are the only one I can share with as no one else would believe me or understand me.

Feeling a bit better, had a chat with SG and she told me off for doubting her. She said she only sides with uNPDw to keep the peace and I should now that. I kind of know, but it is hurting when it happens. Another reason and another thing to push me to get my own place. Have had a look at flats and none that are available now are suitable, either pricewise or size wise. All of them want a 12 months lease as well, that makes it difficult to just sign up for a small one as I would need one with at least 2 big bedrooms (if the girls were to share) or ideally 3 bedrooms. But I will keep looking, my guess is that more flats will be available when Christmas is over. Maybe I can make a deal with an estate agent to have a break clause or something if something more suitable comes up. I need to think about this. Maybe I could get a one month rolling lease if I pay a slightly higher fee for something smaller than I need longer term.

Yeah, talk to an agent. Some of these are going to be negotiable.

Sorry it's so hard, I can feel the pain in your writing. Wish there were easier stories for us.

I am glad to hear you are moving forward.  Putting the docs in order and inventoring items.  Moves like this will give you momentum to move forward.

Don't forget you can get something like an airbnb to move into to buy you time to find an apartment.  It could be smaller but it would give you peace of mind.  Perhaps as early as next week if you get the papers and stuff in order.  It would get you out now and into somewhere with furniture and dishes and what you need until you move it all.

A hotel suite would work as well.  I negotiated a great price at a residence inn for two weeks.  Bonus was the security it took to get in so I felt a real relief while I looked for somewhere. 

If you need to go quickly in order to keep from making a violent mistake, go quickly and do a night a shelter.  They would have support for you and guidance.  I know you might think it's only for women but when I volunteered there I saw plenty of men with families pass through as they needed a night of respite.

Sending you virtual hugs.  You can get through this.

Thank you all!

I have sent an email to my solicitor telling her I want to file next week  :aaauuugh: I am not going to spare STBX anything now and just go for it and tell anyone that needs to know the truth. I know I should have filed a month ago, but I feel good in the way I didn't give her the chance to blame me for ruining Christmas and now I can stand strong and now that the one at fault, again, was in fact her.

But..... my big question is, how to proceed with living arrangements etc. I one way, I would like to stay, let her lose it completely and then have her sectioned or arrested. I am double the size of her, I should manage if she attacks me. Although, if she have a weapon things might get trickier. I really don't think she has a gun, but when she realises the game is up I reckon she could do anything. I don't really want to be somewhere else when that happens if that means the girls are at risk at home with her. There is no way at the moment I would be able to take the girls with me if I left. GC is too brainwashed to see, and SG would not really understand the situation enough.  I will not be able to have her removed without any big incidents I think. My best hope, and it's a chance it would happen, is that when served the papers she will victimise herself and go to her mums.

Just took a stock of items, and I really don't have much worth other than my laptop with all work on and the digital copies of all photos of the kids. A beer collection, books and CD's. All replaceable. I have a box of older memories, but they are not really worth much sentimental either as not looked at them for about 20 years. My passport is always in my rucksack ready if I need to grab my work stuff, throw some clothes in my carry on and then go. Last time when I left, it took me less than 30 minutes to pack almost everything I needed and wanted. Still angry with myself for going back, but I don't think I was mentally ready to leave. I was still do deep in the FOG then and would have risked going back later or falling victim for someone else like my STBX.

I will keep documenting and recording and planning. This will be the fight of my life.

I understand that the girls may not want to go.  But you are the parent and sometimes you just have to say no, pack a bag we are leaving.  Not easy, and it was hard trust me, but it gave us time to decompress, reorganize and talk.  I then had the time to arrange visitation and could do it without the pressure of being around him.  I surrendered the need to keep the house and the things.  In the end, I felt so much better.  Sad but better.

There are people that survive a divorce by living in the same house and some have done it on here but it is rare.  That's why so many leave because you are living with a disordered person who is unpredictable and it can be unsafe.  This is truly the most dangerous time. 

Get out and take them with you.  Don't give them an option.  Send your stbx to the store and be ready to gone when she gets back.

Make sure you have all your work backed up to the cloud if she decides to stomp your laptop while you're out of the room.

Rip off the bandaid, let the light and air get to the wounds.

Hear! Hear!

The harm the stbx is doing to the children is considered abusive.  It IS harmful and harming everyone, mostly them, but also you.  You're a good parent for doing what you can to limit it.

Get yourself OUT of that situation and position yourself to mitigate the PD harm to you and your children.....but where?  Do yor parents live close by? Do you have any friends with a larger home who can 1.  Support you and 2. BE GOOD  WITNESSES for you going forward?  You don't have to stay forever, BUT it can be a good jumping off point for bringing your situation into the light, IMO.  Explaining to the people around you what's going on, bc the stbx will be telling her story and gathering supporters against you as soon as you go.  She will. 

Who can you talk to? Who will understand?  One rule of thumb is to tell your story until the listener is clearly NOT getting it, then stop talking and know they aren't going to be good supporters. Ever.  Just stop talking to them and keep talking to the people who DO understand.  Have you thought about telling your story yet? 

I really believe you'd benefit from reviewing your evidence and forming a narrative THAT EVIDENCE BACKS UP smoothly.  People need things to square up and make sense.  What is your story?  What evidence do you have to back up what you're thinking of telling people?  Your children's friends, the school, the neighbors and family  members will get your stbx's version or YOU version or both.  Think about that, please.

That's the game.

Also, please know the PD will manage to convince some dumb bunnies her story is real.  Some bc they're addicted to drama and maybe were jealous of you and some bc their histories line up and are exploited by the PD easily...... it's nothing to do with you.  This isn't a blow or a loss when it happens.  It's just part of the game and strategy and knowing all will be well, even if it's not OK on the day.... typically the PDs SHOW people who they are with terrible actions and lies.... the people who do want the truth SEE it, while the ones being manipulated and turned are more convinced...... it's very rare for the PD to convince everyone, though I'm sure it happens....
THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE TO RESIST DRAWING ATTENTION TO YOURSELF WITH VIOLENT or UNSTABLE WORDS or DEEDS and let me tell you.... your PD will be baiting you, setting you up and herding you into her narrative with an emotional blow torch.

Do not doubt her ability to go above and beyond what you feel she's capable of.  In fact, it's time to listen to your gut about what you believe she's capable of.  I'm concerned when you write she might use a knife or a gun on you..... that you feel you can take her and it would be worth what you gain. 

If it happens in front of the children..... it won't be worth it, IMO.

If you're both identified as unstable and mentally ill/violent it won't be worth it.

IF it happens with calm, reasonable witnesses who can restrain her, instead of you, it might be, but you haven't yet told anyone about this or lined up people to support you.  I'd look long and hard at that today, along with my evidence and the story you're going to pull together to succinctly explain your situation wtihout going down 10 rabbit holes, which is what the traumatized brain DOES if we aren't aware and strategizing to avoid it, IME.

Remember not to allege anything you can't prove easily.  Remember to make your evidence safe, screw the beer collection.

Remember to tell both your children you love them and you're going to make sure everyone is OK.... including their mum.  You shouldn't lean on your SG for any support or reassurances, though you're partners in the household..... parrtnes in being SGed, but she needs to be a child worrying about children's things.  The adult conflict isn't hers to worry about and both girls should be sheltered as a PRIORITY.

That is what you ask for in the divorce petition.  To SHELTER the children from the adult conflict as a priority.  To get them into therapy to deal with the adult conflict.  The domestic violence people might have therapists to deal with children in crisis and make them available to you on an emergency basis when you go.

Whatever resources you have, go over them with your attorney and domestic violence advocate if you still have one and make the plan.

When you tell your story, remember to give only the hamburger, not the bun or the condiments or the veggies..... just the succinct facts then shut up.  If you tie a string around your wrist and touch it when you feel you're slipping down a rabbit hole, it can help bring you back to the hamburger only,. IME.

Going to a shelter is a good way to get yourself out, safe, WITH people who understand your situation and signal the kind of distress and danger you're leaving and leaving the children IN. Maybe take the SG with you.  I worry very much for her. 

Protecting the GC will be very tricky, bc she's trauma bonded to her mother and it's taken many years to go this far into that wood.  It will take a while to get her out AND that's IF  you can find a way to make her safe enough to come out. 

I've noticed the kids are mostly on their own with the PDs, particularly after giving statements about the abuse, and they shouldn't be abandoned if at all possible.  There can be supervised visitation set up, and held in place until the PD figures out they CANNOT abuse/alienate or kept in place, bc they can't stop. 

I doubt your stbx can stop, btw.  Having information on the visitation companies around you...... names of possible friends and family members who can supervise is good.... in case you line up your evidence well enough to show a Judge your children are being harmed by their mother and need protections...... know what your options are, have the paperwork filled out for there's paperwork involved and always alway always talk about these things with the children's best interests in mind.

Always talk about the stbx with compassion.

Always talk about helping the stbx be the best parent she can be, but you don't let anyone minimize the harm she's doing now.  Calmly redirect the conversation back to protections and supporting the mother daughter relationships as best you can..... rinse and repeat. 

Once your eyes flash, one you start spitting out emotional statements and raising your voice...... people don't hear you, they assume you're trying to gut your opponent and both of your are lying.

Be calm.  Again..... just the hamburger and KNOW YOUR EVIDENCE WELL.  Share what you can prove and leave out the crazy pd stuff that makes YOU appear unhinged just saying it. 

Know it's difficult for people to understand a mother DOING what your stbx is doing..... to her family, her children, you and her SELF.  How can you explain that in it's simplest form, so that people come to an accurate conclusion on their own..... for you must tell your story without expectation. 

You must share facts, without expectation to leave room for your listeners to come to their own conclusions and ACT on your behalf with ghusto, bc telling them they MUST Do, FEEL, ACT can backfire badly, my friend.

I think of exp;laining in this style as speaking to a nervous bird or to children...... you automatically keep your voice level and low when speaking to little children, right?  You give very simple eplanations and you keep things short.

Pretend you're speaking to small children, then, to help you stay level and please please treat stupid questions as
OPPORTUNITIES TO EDUCATE YOUR LISTENERS.

They will likely ask stupid questions..... like..... "What did you DO to the stbx to MAKE HER ACT THAT way?"

Be ready for it.  Have an answer to educate your questioner and deliver it without expectation, with just the hamburger and without emotion....... so they can come to their own conclusions.

You can suggest things, but do not TELL the people in charge what THEY MUST DO...... that's for your attorney to do.  Never you.  You are simply asking for your evidence to be seen and understood so the people in charge suggest the tough things, like supervised visitation, taking the girls out of a harmful situation with their mother and perhaps installing you in the family home with the girls to keep their routines regular and lives as normal as possible. 

Remember, you never want to say you want to get the mum OUT of their lives.  You want to foster the best possible relationship and help the mum be the best parent she can be.  You don't know what kind of help stbx needs, but it's come to a point of crisis you can no longer pretend is temporary or will get bettter..... bc it's getting worse and the children are suffering. 

You'd stay IF you believed being in the house could protect the girls, but you see now..... very clearly..... the adult conflict is harming the children in ways that terrify you and you know the children need intervention......... the alienation and forcing the children to take sides and be cruel to you and the SG isn't something you feel you can in any way avoid at this point and it breaks your heart. 

You want everyone in the family to be OK, including the stbx. 

STBX is going to do what most divorce litigants do, btw.  She's going to be telling lies and making outrageus accusations in every direction, TOO many directions and you'll be the calm, consistent parent who's focusing on the children, doing what he can to protect the children, researching therapists and situations to help the children.... the children the children the children.

You don't focus on the PD and you don't use psychological terms or dx her or tell anyone what must happen.

You state the difficult facts and hope the listener can SEE what must happen and know on their own what is possible, bc that's what judges and police and domestic violence advocates DO, or are supposed to do. 

That's what your attorney should DO, though I'm often shocked at how many fail to understand the PD predicament....... it;s clear how we tell our story impacts that.  As I said, people believe every litigant is a liar and exaggerates.

Since most of us DON't even tell the worst, and the PD always exaggerates, it often appears as though everything is equal. That's why appearing to want the best possible out come for the PD, and to support the mother child relationship is important to avoid being seen as a lying exaggerating litigant willing to lash out and lie in order to get a leg up in court.

Do not whister a negative thing abot your sttbx.  Simply state your facts.... and only those you can back up clearly with evidence. Be able to put your hands on that evidence.  I organized mine in notebooks so I could find things easily and so could my attorney and the child psychologists and whomever was looking at it WITH me.  I did not leave those notebooks with anyone who wasn't MY ATTORNEY.

Making 2 copies, exactly the same, and keeping up with new evidence so it ended up in both folders was SO important.... I wish I'd figured that out years before I did.

If you notice yourself begin to blather quickly..... take a deep breathe and remind yourself.... just the hamburger...... speak as tho you're speaking to children...... only give details of events you can back up with evidence.

Very soon it will become apparent YOU ARE ALWAYS TELLING THE TRUTH. You want the best for the PD and your children, while the stbx has NO evidence and is asking for your head to be removed, which can be mistaken for a victim of domestic abuse angrily standing up to her abuser if you aren't careful not to posture as a mutual combatant in this.

Remember.... you're the calm, consistent parent doing what you can to get everyone help figuring out the unhealthy dynamics in your household, bc you realize it's beyond your ability to cope with or mitigate the harm any longer.  You stayed as long as you did,bc you wanted to believe you could, but you can't and now you're asking for help to figure this out and get everyone help.

Also, be careful about presenting evidence of all the love bombing,bc doing that ONCE comes across to your listeners as your stbx TRYING to save her marriage/be a good mother with YOU refusing to allow her to try,which will be ONE of the likely narratives she's pushing.

You stick to the harm she's done and the evidence to prove it.  The evidence the stbx's behavior has been all over the board can come out later, perhaps when there are Ts involved to help everyone understand the PD dynamics and pathologies.  YOU aren't going to be the one explaining that, IME.  You should stick to the harm you can prove and prove it clearly, very early on and have all other evidence filed and sorted. 

Deciding what evidence you need to present often becomes reactive, IME.  Your PD will blurt out a lie, making it necessary to go to your files and pull evidence to SHOW she's lying, you're telling the truth, over and over again. 

Honestly, court with a PD often comes down to disproving negatives which is one of the reasons to get the truth out early, factual with irrefutable proof so the lies the PD will tell are exposed more quickly, with less confusion and chaos manufacture.  Chaos and confusion are tools the PDs use to gain ground and  put a foot on your head, fig.  You need the court officers to SEE you as a truthful, concerned, compassionate husband and father who needs help dealing with family dysfunction you don't know how to handle.... you want them to WANT to help you in a system where court officers are often jaded and bitter and more than willing to punish everyone who forces them to deal with your case in a courtroom. 

Coming across as the person who wants to settle out of court is important. Presenting as non combative, while presenting some very negative facts about the PD should be seen as getting help for the family and not as slandering and smearing the PD.

It's difficult not to be punished for speaking the PD truths, bc some will interpret you as making up TERRIBLE things to get ahead in the courtroom.  THAT is why you MUST prove your case quickly and with economy of motion.

DO NOT LET THE PD TALK YOU OUT of filing, proving your case and getting this over with according to your plan, for she will make promises and break them, one after the other, which is allllllll chaos and confusion manufacture which I've explained is a bad thing for you and a good thing for her.

You stick to the children, getting them help and shielding them from future harm while supporting the stbx in being the best mother she can be.

At the point you're offered protections for the children there will be new problems...... wanting the kids to have as normal an experience as possible...... seeing their mother in a visitation facility, for instance, isn't ideal, but might be necessary and something you acccept without trying to fix it.... at least for a while.  IF you get that protection for your children, do not try to make it better or perfect, just know it's a block in the foundation of future protections shielding your children, if it's at all possible. 

Good luck, EM.

Breathe and keep breathing. 

Suggestion for dealing with your children going forward..... pick up the book THE PARALLEL PROCESS by Krissy Pozatek.  It's full of good ideas that demystify all the angst and pain around children's lashing out and suffering in your space. 

You will be served well by creating some emotional distance from your children's suffering so you're able to respond to it and be responsive to get them help in the best possible way. 

Being stuck in their suffering WITH them, feeling their pain and getting paralyzed by it, makes it impossible to be responsive and creative in finding ways to alleviate their sufffering, IME.

There is absolutely no chance I can taker the girls. 1) GC would fight me to come, she would fight being there, she is so brain washed at the moment. She spends all day long with having uNPDw feeding her lies and opinions. 2) uNPDw would very likely classify it as kidnapping and contact the police. At the moment I have no legal right to take them and move them in somewhere else. I can probably take them for a holiday, but not much more than that. But, I can't even invite GC to do the smallest thing without her complaining why her mum wasn't invited. I will need to play this clever, but I cannot control the situation as it is impossible to know how she will react. I don't think she will be violent to the girls, but I can't be sure. She most likely will roll out the red carpet for them and love bomb them. The rage will be against me. I am considering if I am better off fighting from the near, and keep recording and report her if she steps over the mark. But this is a fight I have been scared of, hence my hesitation for years.

Found some cloud storage and it's actually not that expensive. I think I will sign up and upload all my work and personal files.

In response to hhaw and probably others too, getting so tired and mixing things up. But, no I have no one to go to where we live. I am building up a few friendships which STBX actively tries to ruin, trying to get the girls some friendships at the same time which STBX also tries to ruin. My family lives in another country, the absolutely ideal would be to move there with the kids - but going there for anything other than holiday without STBX approval would probably count as kidnapping.  I probably should call one of the free helplines for suggestions about what to do, but I don't feel like I want to, stupid I know. It seems to be very little I can do the coming days other than just try to survive, but I will use the time to plan and take stock.

I am not sure how severe abuse it is in this country for swearing and degrading me in front of the kids, if it warrants her removal or not. I doubt it. But I will talk to the solicitor about all options. I just politely said no to STBX and got a mouth full in front of the girls, was called names, lazy and also accused for sitting in a cesspit (my office). I have several reasons to say no, but didn't feel I needed to explain so just said no. Then GC started hurling abuse at me as well, joining STBX in degrading me. Only yesterday did STBX lie and tell me that she is not back chatting me and trying to turn the kids against me. She is really starting to paint herself into a corner with all her lies. Whilst all these was going on, I sat quiet as engaging makes it 10 times worse. SG was standing looking said and when they were all leaving the house she looked at me waving and blew me kisses.

I honestly think that STBX should be sectioned, she is sick. You really must have wiring going complete a walk in your head if you one minute can tell someone how much you love them and then the next wish them dead. Anyway, this is not about her. It's about me. I need to get some energy from somewhere and try to get all my documentation, voice recordings and photos in order so I can present a case. I have always wanted to spare her any punishments, but why should I when she would not spare me any?

Maybe plan a " work" trip away so you can focus on organizing your evidence without distraction.

It's important and necessary to put together the best case u can.  It's important you rest and recover so you're in control, on task and less likely to be reactive.

I think there might be another way, but need to discuss this with solicitor. She mentioned non molestation order before, which I didn't really pay that much attention to. If I can get that, it will make it illegal for STBX to talk badly to me and/or the children. If she would still do it and I got evidence, she could face prison. This might be an avenue to explore. I have enough evidence to the non molestation order in place, it will be hard work but if I get it that could make the difference.

Get that Order in place,  if at all possible, man.

It would set the likely trajectory for protecting your children and getting professional help stbx can't kok up.