Do I have PD behavior?!?!

[sundance]

So I'm going back through text messages because I have to submit them to the courts.

And I'm seeing behavior in myself that I'm scared is PD behavior.

These arguments, over time, involved me acting more and more like her. Though, there is a particular flavor the way she insults me, which is outside the realm of simply talking about how we feel and what actually happened.

But I found myself, over time, being jealous of her, or getting my feelings hurt, or drawn into arguments where I ended up feeling like I had said something really hurtful. And then I'd give some grand apology, and she'd take me back. But on the other hand, she said really mean things about me, as a person.... sort of condemning things, and never really apologized for them. It was hard to get an apology, if I ever got one. I would find myself writing apology notes for her when she kicked me out. But I'm really worried that maybe I am showing some traits of personality disordered people.

I definitely would get jealous from time to time, and I definitely said some snarky things once or twice, without a good reason, except I was feeling insecure or something and I guess I didn't know how to express that adequately. Though I feel like sometimes I'm pretty good at saying basically, "that hurts my feelings."

I remember the last argument we got in before she assaulted me, she kicked me out of her house. The night before, we had gotten into an argument outside, just the two of us. And she started telling me that I think XYZ and I really am thus and so, and I'm trying to explain that these things aren't what I really think and this is actually what I think. And she says "yea right" and keeps telling me how I'm terrible. And I was explaining how I really wish we could just talk about our feelings without yelling and without attacking each other. And she just walks off. And then I follow and say, essentially, can we please talk about this?

She refused. So I sort of disengaged. And later when we were hanging with her friends, (moments later), her entire demeanor was different, BUT I WAS STILL UPSET and hurt. And she was trying to kiss me and smile at me and make jokes and I was just not responding. I didn't feel comfortable, and I was refusing to engage until she talked to me about what just happened. Is this manipulative? Should I have just gotten over it?

Later that night, I continued to be disengage. I couldn't just get over it. So when they were all hanging later, I went over by myself and did some things I needed to do by myself. I didn't feel comfortable. It was like the fight never happened. But let's say that I did say something that really upset her, and I'm not even aware of it? Should I have continued to reach out? Or am I being manipulative. She didn't talk to me the whole night. She went to bed without talking to me. And I still didnt' feel comfortable, so instead I slept on the floor, with the dog. It didn't feel right climbing into bed with someone who had just hurt me. It felt like it was a power dynamic or something. Is that on me? Should I have just left? Was sleeping on the floor manipulative?

When she woke up she stomped next to my head on the way out of the room, and I just sort of got up and went outside and got to work on some things that needed to get done. And then she locked her door, so I just continued working on things around the house, some of which were my personal projects, until I saw her come out and dump all my things on the floor. Which I took as "get out of my house". So I packed up and left.

Then later, I sent her a message about the work I had done, and she sends a list of insults again. But some of them appear to be her upset about me hurting her feelings. Though I think the nature of them is a little miniscule, but how am I to tell someone they can't get their feelings hurt?

My responses ended up being loud and mean. It just turned into a shit show. It all sucks.

Before I left her house I wrote her a message that said essentially, I'm really sorry we couldn't get along and I wish you the best. But was this me expecting her to come back? Is this ME hoovering?

How can I know? Am I gaslighting myself? jeeeez

[Starboard Song]

I'm not going to pretend we can tell how well behaved you are. We can't. But you do not talk about this at all as a PD person would.

For instance, remaining upset and wanting to discuss something rather than just let go is not manipulative behavior. It is natural and properly protective of yourself. Being angry and sometimes acting out is also not PD behavior.

A third thing is not PD behavior: this kind of careful analysis open to self-criticism.

If you are worried about your behavior, and feel you are sometimes acting out in ways that are not becoming, or below your standards, consider that you may have fleas. Lie down with dogs and get up with fleas, right? Well, long association with PDs can cause folks to adopt some of their tactics. If a PD-person can be damaging to others, then it is ok to admit that some of us are, well, a little damaged. But you are engaged and caring enough to be asking these questions, you are balanced enough to ask them so well, and so you will always be improving and being just as kind as possible.

I do not believe you need to worry about being evil. But it is always good for us to strive to be better. Just don't get mixed up and think that you are other than Good right now.

[blacksheep7]

I don't think so.

When we are hurt, frustrated, angry, we react and to me that is what you did.  Who hasn't said mean things to another person because they are hurt.  Honestly, I think we all did at one point or another in our lives....doesn't mean that we have a pd.

You have self awareness and feel bad about how you acted or reacted.  Pds don't question themselves!

take care.

[moglow]

PD behavior is, in a nutshell, normal behavior gone awry.  Any/all of us can and will exhibit any number of PD traits, given the right/wrong circumstances. Who knows what's buried within us that comes out of hiding occasionally. Rarely. Under extreme situations. Someone with a PD doesn't operate that way - it's consistent over time, it's pervasive and even overwhelming, often taking over relationships and lives. A random trait or occurrence here or there is not and won't be diagnosed a personality disorder.

Reading the actual diagnostic criteria can be very eye opening, particularly when you realize "this" behavior isn't what you thought it was, it may well be something else entirely. AND you have to remember that in order to be diagnosed, one would have to meet five or more criteria of a particular disorder. There is also a lot of comormidity [mixing] between personality disorders - someone may have more traits of one PD than another, but I'm not sure there are "pure" BPD or NPD so that can cover a whole lot of territory in itself.

But to the crux of your question, based on my experience rarely does someone with a personality disorder have the self awareness to look at themselves and their own stuff, pick it apart and question what they're doing to those around them. They may project a whole heap of whatever they're feeling and blame everyone else for it, but so so much willing or able to look within at their own behaviors.

Buzzwords and labels are all well and good, but honestly, the behavior tells the tale for me. If you recognize that "I do this and I know I shouldn't" or "I do this and it's hurting me/other people" think about those thing. Stop and consider other ways you can respond in those situations, instead of reacting in the heat of the moment. And in the reverse, tell her that "x behavior/situation bothered me and this is why, can we find another way going forward." She might not like it, but if we are scared to say important things because of the likely outcome, doesn't that say a lot in and of itself? If we can't be honest and talk about the simplest things without an explosion and being attacked - why bother?

[Bowsy26]

Uggh!  I just dumped a whole reply and don't have time to try to recreate it.  Sundance, many people involved with a PD question if they are the one with the problem.  I have twice asked for an evaluation so I could know if I was the root cause of my problems with dxnpdh.  What I have learned from this site is we pick up fleas.  The toolbox is helpful along with all the definitions, etc.  The book board is helpful at finding a book to read and learn. 

Just an observation but we never will figure out the PD other than that they have some significant disorder to how they interact with the world.  Focusing on what they do is the best thing we can do for ourselves.  They will talk us in circles until we are dizzy and give up.  That's why I am leaving.  I want peace and I want my life to belong to me. 

I hope this site helps you find what it is you need am sorry you are going through this. 

[PeanutButter]

All human behavior is measured on a spectrum from normal to malignant for the purpose of determining disorders or dysfuntion.
Even though we are living with a pd person whos behaviors are malignant we are still 50% responsible for the dynamic in the relationship.
Sometimes imo if we become so focused on the personality disorder malignancy as the sole 'problem' we forget to watch ourselves.
That may be why you felt kinda shocked to see your text.
With healing ime comes awareness and acceptance.
Of course you acted out sometimes. IMO this is not surprising but doesnt indicate anything other than she really had you stressed, tired, and maybe even confused, but definately broken hearted.
I think most of us do take on some disordered behaviors at the lowest point of the relationship before it broke, that we may or may not have displayed if we hadnt been with a pd.
Only you can know your thoughts and reasons and whether you were hoovering or gas lighting her.
Even if you were i strongly urge you to forgive yourself.
Its ok. It really is. You are ok.

[sundance]

It's definitely been a time for self-examination, these last few weeks. Sometimes, it feels really hard to get a perspective. I often ask others about my behavior, but maybe this is a result of feeling gaslit (gaslighted?). I can say that there is a part of my brain that worries I may be doing or saying things that have unwanted consequences or that I may be unaware of the effects of them. Maybe this is telling.

Upon further reflection and going back through text messages:

I think I have tried to take responsibility for my actions where I can be aware. And I have tried to get my partner's perspective when she has been upset. Rarely did these conversations ever remain conversations. Typically they evolved very quickly to personal attacks, which don't leave me with a whole lot of self-reflecting to do. I can't do a lot with "you're a piece of shit." But I found myself apologizing off and on nonetheless. This in itself isn't healthy behavior, I don't think.

So then I would try to get perspective from mutual friends. I would ask if i really was doing the things she was accusing me of. Sometimes this was to vent, rather than simply to get perspective. But I was always worried. When people would tell me that I did not act the way she described, I still wondered if they knew or not, or whether I was hiding behavior, but now I think I have just become sort of scared and confused over time.

I had a hard time exiting these situations, and really had a hard time dropping arguments. At least, I had a really hard time feeling okay after arguments were not resolved (at least in my mind).

I was definitely guilty of saying snarky things every once in a while.

I do see some over-sensitivity on my part, throughout our relationship. I'm wondering how to work on this? Primarily the over-sensitivity, itself. I believe I tried to be as calm and honest about expressing my insecurities, but those insecurities are there, nonetheless.

I read an article about narcissism which stated that a major sign of narcissism in a two person romantic relationship was the inability of another party to face angry confrontation. Or at least, their tendency to withdraw from the situation. In my experience with this relationship, my partner was unable to handle any confrontation about any issues I had without getting angry, volleying back personal criticism, and sometimes getting very aggressive/violent. However, for my own part, I feel like I do shy away from angry/condemning confrontation.

It is troubling, because there were times when my partner was angry with me, and I took issue with the display of anger. Looking back, it feels like I was expecting my partner to be calm or at least respectful when expressing that I had done something that had upset her. I, mean, most of the time these things ended up in pretty harsh, prolonged personal attacks, which I do have trouble responding to, and I didn't seem to be able to bring the conversation (argument) back to a place where I could explain my perspective, but maybe that's not important at the time??? Maybe I wasn't able to let go of my own perspective and just empathize with someone who was hurt, for reasons no matter how seemingly benign.

Dealing with this now, and being unable to get any sort of validation for my own feelings from my ex-partner, I can see how frustrating it can be to not get validation from someone when you are hurt. I just feel like we can do it without yelling and personal attacks. Is this asking to much? Or is a certain level of meanness to be expected from every relationship? Does it make a difference whether someone says, "you are an asshole who thinks they are better than everyone," or, "you're hurting my feelings when you say this, and it makes me think you don't care"  ?  It seems the same feelings are underneath, maybe. I just don't know anymore.

What should a reasonable expectation be for dealing with hurt feelings in a healthy relationship?

[moglow]

Reasonable expectation: Treat others as we wish to be treated. Accept that we will disagree but there's no need to be disagreeable while doing it.

Sounds easy, doesnt it? Problem is, seems like PD individuals see disagreement or difference of opinion as an attack. They quickly counter with a bigger better attack and just keep em coming from there. Damn skippy I'm gonna shut down, back off and/or very possibly withdraw altogether. I've done it nicely with "we'll have to talk when we have time to cool off" and I've gone the hard route of f* you and the horse you ride in on! No, it's not productive and I'm not proud of it, but we all have limits.

Does it make a difference whether someone says, "you are an asshole who thinks they are better than everyone," or, "you're hurting my feelings when you say this, and it makes me think you don't care"  ?  It seems the same feelings are underneath, maybe. I just don't know anymore.

Short answer: Yes it absolutely makes a difference and it should. It speaks to character. The instant it devolves into name calling and personal attacks, "discussions" are over. There's no common ground, no redemption if someone goes down and stays there. Sure, we all may pop off but when it's an attack on my character and I'm being called names rather than any form of reasonable understanding, I'm done. I don't like it and I'm not sitting there for it. If that's the best someone has to offer they can go elsewhere.

Yes, we all say things we wish we hadn't. A decent person comes back and apologizes, I shouldn't have said that and I'm sorry. It's a whole other story when you say "it hurts my feelings and I feel xyz when you abc..." Thats expressing how it makes you feel, what you're hearing and you want to understand/be understood. "You're an asshole and I wish i'd never met you ..." Well. Where does it go from there? Nowhere. And pretty damn fast at that.

Note, I have a BIG problem with name calling, whoever it is and in whatever context. My mother's done it all my life and it lowers her every time I hear it. But understand - name calling isn't about you at all and you don't have to accept that view. Better that you don't really. Either speak as you want to be spoken to or leave me alone, is where I am now.

Off my soapbox now. You keep looking to yourself and how you treat others, be accountable when you screw up, and quick to offer a sincere apology when you do. But don't be a doormat. You deserve better.

[Starboard Song]

I just feel like we can do it without yelling and personal attacks. Is this asking to much? Or is a certain level of meanness to be expected from every relationship? Does it make a difference whether someone says, "you are an asshole who thinks they are better than everyone," or, "you're hurting my feelings when you say this, and it makes me think you don't care"  ?  It seems the same feelings are underneath, maybe.

What should a reasonable expectation be for dealing with hurt feelings in a healthy relationship?

I was raised by two of the finest people to ever walk the earth, so I have high standards. I have barely emphasized my words in 26 years with my wife: I have never yelled. She is more likely to emphasize words, but she too has never ever yelled at me. We've never called each other a name or cast a general criticism like "you just really suck sometimes."

I expect a great deal of a partner or friend. However hurt anyone in my circuit is, I expect them to use their words: the thoughtful and substantive kind. If they tell me they are hurt -- for any reason -- I will tell them I regret their hurt. With luck, my behavior was a mistake, or was misunderstood. If not, at least maybe I didn't know the impact it would have, and I regret that too.

In 26 years there have only been a few times that my behavior was flatly intentional, I understood its impact on my wife, and I did not regret it. These are the rare time (for some not so rare) when our values and interests truly and iredeemably diverged. In those cases I could still -- and did -- calmly explain my case, and express that I deeply regretted still the impact on her, and our difference on the question. But I couldn't regret the act itself. She's done similar for me.

I suspect my version is nothing better than aspriational for most. It may sound fanciful.

I can tell you my wife remembers being stunned: there are people who treat you with respect, and look on the bright side, and don't try to tear you down?!? Wow.

I don't know what most people can truly expect, but I certainly know what I am showing my daughter that she can aspire to.

[sundance]

I have seen so many fights between partners, recently. I see my own experience, now, when this happens. It makes my stomach turn. It is crazy to me how much abuse happens all the time. It is making me wonder what is a valid expectation for a relationship.

[PeanutButter]

IME one of the tactics used by pd or non-w/fleas was to hyperfocus on my 'anger', 'dissappointment', jealousy, etc. when i tried to bring up issues, making 'my emotions' the issue instead of aknowledging the issues I had with their behavior.
A judgement was made about my 'right' to feel what I feel.

ime if you focus on behaviors you wont tolerate it should take care of the sensitivity you feel you have to facing anger.

[sundance]

I do struggle with angry confrontation. I don't struggle with expression of disappointment or jealousy, unless it is angry. I see sort of some disagreement about how it's okay to express these emotions to another. It is possible I'm just too sensitive, and I need to be able to deal with anger from others without a quick resolution or a quick apology on my part. I am quite sure of it, in fact. How have you all worked on this?

[PeanutButter]

I do struggle with angry confrontation. I don't struggle with expression of disappointment or jealousy, unless it is angry. I see sort of some disagreement about how it's okay to express these emotions to another. It is possible I'm just too sensitive, and I need to be able to deal with anger from others without a quick resolution or a quick apology on my part. I am quite sure of it, in fact. How have you all worked on this?

By focusing on the persons behaviors instead of the persons emotion (anger). 

What behaviors are you identifying as "anger" that are not acceptable? Those are what matters. Not that the person feels anger but how their display of anger encroaches your boundaries is the focus ime.

If someone says 'im really mad at you right now for fill in the blank " then that should be ok.

But if someone screams "i hate you you stupid sob" that would not be ok. Imo