Guilt about no contact

[AliceWinter]

Hi.

I'm new here and this is my first post. I'm in my forties and have two children under the age of 10. I have a mum who most likely has bpd with narcissistic traits. I used to be really enmeshed with her growing up and at the same time have gone through years of her scapegoating me. The last time it happened I felt I had no other option than to limit contact with her. It was so damaging to my mental health and I didn't want my children to be exposed to it.
It of course set of a reaction in her and she became more hostile to the point where I stopped seing her all together.
I wanted to keep some contact with her but now I feel it's to late. She can't see no good in me and it hurts to much. I'm also afraid of her getting enmeshed with my kids and eventually turning them against me.

One thing I struggle with is validating my own feelings I guess. She was never physically abusive and she didn't swear at me or call me names. The thing's she did was more subtle, like talking to people behind my back and making them side with her. She would withdraw emotionally and I'm sure it was a way to punish me.
She would do things that was really crazymaking, like pretending she was afraid of me and in that way getting support and comfort from the flying monkeys. It was kind of ridiculous because in other similar situations she would not show any fear at all but instead roll her eyes at me.
I find it a bit hard to describe the dynamic.

The thing I want to ask is if there's any of you out there that went no contact under similar circumstances?

I feel in a way that it was extreme of me going there. But I felt so much anxiety and pain. Yet I felt responible for not being able to express myself clearly to her. Would that have made a difference I think. But then again she would never allow me to express myself, it would only be circular conversations where she took my words and put them out of context.

I think that perhaps I would have manager the relationship if it weren't for me sister being very enmeshed with my mum and I new they talked a lot about me behind my back. I felt like if I did one wrong move, they would be delighted. Cosing up together and talking about my flaws and how troubled I was.

Well. I'm at a point where I struggle a lot with guilt and also a bit with grief. I miss the good times with her. At times I was the golden child and she only saw the good in me. But it's all so very sick.
I don't want my kids to grow up in that dynamic thinking that it's normal.

Sorry this post is a bit messy.
It's difficult to explain but reading some other posts in here I get the feeling that perhaps someone in here can understand.

[NarcKiddo]

I don't think anyone cuts off contact for the sake of it and I don't think that you doing so could be extreme.

I have not cut contact, so I am not speaking from personal experience. I would these days be capable of doing so if pushed, but I would rather not if it can be avoided. I am scared of the guilt, I guess. And I fully identify with your suggestion that it was not "that bad". The abuse I suffered was also subtle for the most part. It is only recently that I have even been able to begin to accept that it was abusive, rather than me just being over-sensitive.

The part of your post that resonated with me, and made me want to reply although I am not myself NC, is the bit about you missing the good times. I thought there were good times, growing up. I tried desperately to keep the "nice" mother around me. I now realise that she was not really nice even then, and the effort I had to go to to keep her in that mood meant denying all of myself. For what? Just for a version of her that was preferable to the openly nasty/angry one.

I wish you all the best.

[footprint33]

Hi Alice,

Welcome to Out of the FOG, you have come to a very supportive place. Going No Contact (NC) often happens when adult children of narcissistic parents realize the toxic dynamic they're in with the parent and understand that they must protect themselves. While NC sometimes happens after a major event, I think it more often occurs when nothing major has happened and the adult child can no longer take the steady flow of toxic abuse from the parent, which can include passive abuse in the form of talking behind your back. Not having unconditional love and support from your parent and having to worry if they are smearing you behind your back understandably leads to anxiety and depression.

It's common to feel guilt and I've certainly struggled with that over the years. But you don't deserve the treatment you were receiving from your mother. One thing that helps me is to realize that I would never do to my children what my parents did to me. This reconnects me to my own inner child, helping me to understand that I didn't deserve the treatment and shouldn't feel guilty for trying to protect myself. 

You deserve love and support in your life.

footprint

[Pepin]

Going NC was a relief.  I had endured a discard before, during which time I sought group therapy and also individual therapy.  When the discard ended, I was ready to defend myself and I did.  This angered my father greatly and as a result, his bad behavior started up again.  I knew that NC was the answer. 

The only guilt I really felt however was for myself, that I didn't have a healthy upbringing and my younger self suffered tremendously.  I also felt bad for my father that he also had a terrible childhood - but I was confused as to why he would do to me what was probably done to him?  How did he forget how his younger self felt about that? 

There has been enough time since NC that I really feel nothing for him.  I've done the work and it's been many years.  I did what I could every way imaginable to have a relationship with him and it just didn't work - because he didn't want it to. 

[lookingforpeace]

I am currently in a similar situation. After many years of on/off verbal abuse, blaming, no accountability for her actions, guilt tripping and gaslighting I'd had enough. The situation with my BPDm and enabling PDsf escalated and I was done. As footprint33 mentioned, the no contact did not just happen after one incident this was years of "a thousand little (many big) cuts". I could not make conversation about simple things like my daily errands without her turning it around to ridicule me. It has been over a month and am feeling sad about the NC and the holidays but the thought of immersing myself back in that drama keeps me away. I remind myself of something my therapist said- she is in this situation because of HER choices. She will never change I know that, so I have to in order to protect myself.
I have found this site to be a lifesaver over the years even though I rarely post. Keep coming here for support. We do understand❤️

[moglow]

AliceWinter, Welcome to our little corner of they asylum! You'll find plenty of like-minded souls I think, even when we're at varying levels of contact-no contact. There are so many overlaps in our experiences, so don't ever think there a need to justify your reasoning. If it's detrimental to you and your life on whatever level, you have to first take care of yourself.

Mine is a vicious overt abuser and always has been, albeit behind closed doors and within the privacy of family. And even there, she's in complete denial of the years of physical abuse she inflicted. To her, since she somehow doesn't remember it, it never happened and we should all simply accept that she has no responsibility there. And the emotional, verbal abuse that's ongoing?? Never happened. I'm/we're over sensitive, blowing things out of proportion, can't take a joke, and again "that never happened" or "I never said that" even when provided proof - just ask her. And yet all my life I felt guilty for never doing or being "enough" in her eyes.

Times of no contact helped me separate myself from her insanity. Taking much needed steps back and away provided clarity - and more importantly, peace. You can impose whatever restrictions you need for yourself, and you don't have to ask anyone's permission or try to explain your reasoning. You can simply stop being available to her/them if and for as long as needed. They're going to do what they do regardless, so really, do what YOU need. We all have to start first with ourselves, put the oxygen mask on ourselves before trying to do for everyone else.

[AliceWinter]

Thank you so much for all your kind and toughtful answers.❤. It means a lot to me! So generous of you to take the time to reply and share your experiences. I feel this forum will help me a lot, it has already been very comforting to me.

I will write more in the days to come. Just wanted to thank you all❤❤❤

[AliceWinter]

It's healing and comforting being around others who share similair experiences.

It's so sad and crazymaking.

When I was a child and a long way into my adult years I believed that every family was like mine. That it was totally normal that your mother showed one face in the public and another at home. I don't think anyone would have guessed what she could be like behind closed doors.

For me having children changed my view of things a lot.
As Footprint33 wrote, "I would never do to my children what my parents did to me".
When I had my first child my relationship to mum started to blossom and it continued surprisingly long that time, for about two years I think.
I did at times have an uneasy feeling though when she interacted with my child. She was not abusive towards him. I think it was more about enmeshment. But I sad to myself that perhaps it was my issues.
Then there started to be situations in which I felt the urge to set boundaries. From there it went downhill i guess.

I try to think that it's her own choices that landed her here. Like lookingforpeace therapis so wisely said. Sometimes it works for me and sometimes I still feel responsible. I think that if she's disorderd in some way, she lacks the emotional maturity to make better choices. That makes me sad and leaves me with a feeling of abandoning her, because I see her as a helpless in a way.

I guess I have a long way to go  before I'm free from the fog

[moglow]

I'd venture a guess that emotional maturity is exactly what we're talking about here, on a constantly sliding [and very slippery!] scale really. Just like the rest of us she still has choices and consistently makes poor ones, thus the roots of the disorder. For me the kicker has been the seemingly immediate need that "this must happen/be said RIGHT THIS MINUTE" instead of stopping and thinking it through. 

As my brother mentioned just this morning about ours "all she sees is what he wants. Very basic. Primal really." Whether it's something she says or does, there's no apparent forethought as to how it's coming across to others. And yet at the same time [as we've pointed out to her] if we said/did those very things to her, she'd lose her everloving mind over it! That's one thing that's helped me lay aside the guilt, the sure and true knowledge that she's deliberately doing the very things that would devastate or enrage her. And she laughs about it, no matter how vicious or hurtful it is. Mother truly believes she gets a pass, always, because she's the mother. There's no conscience, regret, remorse, no responsibility for her actions whatsoever.

[AliceWinter]

You describe it all very well Moglow. The immediate reaction and the selfabsorption, it is all about her needs and what she wants. She's very good at manipulating me and others around her. And I don't actually know if she does it conciously or not. When she wants something she often can make it seem like it's out of concern for someone else.

I have been struggling so much to see threw her manipulative tactics. And as you wrote, there's no remorse or regret. No accountability ever. That I have been struggling with as well. I have up until recently thought that she in some way felt remorse, just couldn't fully get my feelings and my perspective. For so long I thought that if she just heard me through and could see my pain she would change. Now I get that it's probably not about understanding. She just thinks my feelings and petspective are invalide and that she has the right to express herself in exactly the way she does.

[Call Me Cordelia]

That meshes very much with my experience, Alice. Any time I tried to express my (highly legitimate!) feelings of hurt I immediately hit the wall of denial and blame. It was like a force field. The lightest touch on their personal responsibility immediately set off a blast at me that left their view of things untouched. Everything was my own fault and how dare I expect them to fix my problems for me? So I fixed it for myself. I got rid of the source of those problems. Of course that's simply proof of how terrible and mentally ill I am, but now I don't have to hear it anymore. 

[AliceWinter]

I can recognize myself very much in your story Call Me Cordelia.

Even though they didn't tell it to my face that I was mentally ill, I certanly got the feeling that it was their opinion about me. I pulled away because I couldn't take the toxicity anymore. My mum and my sister then suggested that I had a depression and needed to take responsibility for that condition. They kindly offered me help. "We just want to help you". At times they seemed to forget about the version where I'm mentally unstable and instead viewed me as an angry person who pulled away in order to punish people and make them suffer.

[Call Me Cordelia]

They didn't tell me to my face either, but they simply invented a diagnosis of postpartum depression and put it in writing to plenty of people in a campaign to gather support for themselves and force me back into my compliant scapegoat role in the family. They deserve to have their daughter and grandkids back, and Cordelia is being so cruel. Make her see the light, everybody.

To me, it was all, "I'm only trying to help you and you are just blaming me!" Holy projection. Who are you trying to help and who is blaming here? (And your family, who is trying to punish whom here?) But yes, the story changes based on whatever serves their purpose at the moment. Grab on tight to reality, because you won't find it through interacting with a PD system.

[AliceWinter]

I get really upset when families do these kind of campaigns. For me it happened during pregnancy, they invented the diagnosis pregnancy depression. It was so clear to me that my mum and her partner wanted nothing to do with me but at the same time wanted free access to the grand children. So much blaming and shaming that was put on me, just for reducing contact a bit.

Yes you're right Cordelia, you need to grab on tight to reality. It's often hard because you've been taught for so many years that their reality is the only valid one. And they are soo good at turning and twisting events, it's hard to stick to your truth sometimes even though you feel in your heart that it's right. And then always the question. How can they treat their children like that. No matter what, they need to protect themselves first.

[footprint33]

Hi Cordelia and Alice, I wanted to chime in because it was after the occurrence of a very cruel event shortly following my first child's birth back in 2009 that I finally began awakening to the true nature of my NPD parents. Both of them also acted outrageous during my two pregnancies. During these times, I kept saying to myself, "why now, of all times in my life?" I was devastated, and at the time, I just couldn't believe those things could happen at such an important time for me.

In therapy, I learned that these are key times when NPD parents attack. They also do it during other rites of passage and special events. Weddings, graduations, deaths, sicknesses, birthdays, awards ceremonies etc. are all game for them to try and dismantle their children.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi footprint. Yes, it's true. We've had a few threads about uPDs behaving badly at weddings and funerals. I'm really sorry you've had these experiences too. Hit us when we're vulnerable, when our emotional space is taken up with our own stuff NOT THEM. Definitely a pattern. And really all the more reason to keep them out of our special times.

The saddest part of the blame and shame game is it's a no-win situation. The best outcome for that tactic is it fails. If it "works," still nobody is really happy. The best the narc can hope for is reasserting their control until their next trigger. Exhausting and never-ending for all.

[AliceWinter]

It must have been very hurtful to be treated in that way by your parents footprint. Especially during times that are important and when you most need their love and support.

For me it was the treatment during those times that made me see just how little love my mum had for me. It could be turned of in a second and she could be so cruel. I couldn't understand at the time and thought just like you did " why now of all times".

When looking back I can see that things kept unfolding in the same way over time. There were always a reason for the way she treated me. Often it started with some boundarysetting from my part.
She would always, without exception, view it as a vicious attac at her and tell that story to other familymembers and friends. The reason for me setting a boundary always got lost, it wasn't important anyway. I can see now that I myself adopted that view and got stuck in guilt. I kept thinking that I had done it the wrong way and perhaps shouldn't have done it at all.

When looking back now I get a feeling that she might have gradually provoked me into reacting. I think she can read me quite well and perhaps in a subconcious way made it all build up. For what reason? Perhaps it was about reasserting control as you wrote Cordelia. To make sure she was in control. 

She would always play to card "I'm so scared of you" "I try my best but you are always angry with me" The irony is that I believe she had more control over me than over any other person in the family. I was so afraid of her and I still am. My sister never were and she could definetely assert her boundaries. It's confusing.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi AliceWinter,

It is definitely confusing to have a mother like this. Welcome to the forum. I am glad you found this space.

In one of your posts you wrote about a question that I also wondered a lot about at one point : the question about whether they are choosing this behavior or not. IF they are disordered, then perhaps they can't change their selfish ways. Where does that leave us?

In my experience, this question hits a lot of us who had immature parents. Were our parents capable of change and simply chose their abusive behavior? Or did they have a disorder which prevented them from changing how they treated us?

Once I became an adult, it was easier for me to see that my parent was NOT treating me in a respectful way, which led me to wonder why. Which leads to the question around whether they can change this or not.

My own view of this today is that some of us had parents who probably could have changed, but didn't. And some of us had parents whose narcissism was never going to change, no matter what. This is their 'personality style' as Dr. Ramani puts it. And it ain't never gonna change. As she sometimes says!

For me, part of getting Out of the FOG was to realize that whether my parents could change or not, the fact is: they are not changing. They are as manipulative and controlling and damaging now as they were before - and so all the changing I did, those are changes I made. For me. For my understanding. For my life to be better. They are pretty much doing the same things they've been doing. When we start to change how we see things, we then hope that the other person changes too. When they don't change, it brings us another layer of understanding - that this person (our parent) is not growing or changing.

There can be a feeling for us, that I think might be some type of survivor guilt, as we get ourselves Out of the FOG, and we see that WE can change, but they stay the same. They are still tactless and manipulative and immature and controlling, and we're changing how we deal with all of it. We're changing - they are not. This can lead to a bit of "I sure wish they could change too" and then realizing that if they can't change, we're better off than they are. Because we can learn and grow and they can't. They are stuck with their same manipulative approach to life, over and over and over.

In other words, they have to 'play small' at life because at the end of the day, they lack the maturity to have good relationships. They just do. But we don't. How did that happened? It's probably a combination of genetics and early trauma. They just lost the lottery when it came to being able to get out of their own way and develop a personality that 'fits' into relationships with others. Their life is shaped by the limitations they have - with treating people well and being able to take care of their own emotions without being so abusive and damaging. These people look to their adult children for a lot. While treating us poorly.

The cost of staying at their level with them, is huge though. They are paying a price for their immaturity, despite that they will never see it that way. WE are also paying a price for their immaturity, and we had to pay it as children.

We lost out on a lot - like being allowed to keep our boundaries - as you mentioned in your last post. Children are born with the need to develop boundaries and narc parents crash right through those. Leaving us with few if any healthy boundaries by they time they've trained us to pay attention to them and their needs. Healthy parents don't do that to their kids. They let their kids have boundaries.

There is a time for us to realize we really are independent from our parents now, and their mental health issues are their mental health issues, for them to address or not (mostly not).

My 2 cents is that there is a way to end the fog with disordered / immature parents, and it involves doing exactly what you are doing. Looking at her behavior as hers. This is who she is. Even before you were born she was probably acting entitled - like she does with you.

Eventually we learn to see that no one actually gains anything of value by playing their immature game. The thing they seek - attention - is fleeting. They get it, yes, but then it goes away, so they have to seek it out all over again. They have no lasting peace in their life. They are always forced to seek out more supply because all the supply they work so hard to get from us, deteriorates, evaporates and fades as the minutes tick by. So then they are off seeking more supply again, a few hours later, or a few days later. There is no end to their search for supply- and they will spend their entire life seeking it out over and over and over. It is a terrible way to live, psychologically speaking.

Your boundaries are seen by her as barriers to her getting the supply she is entitled to. Which is why her reaction to your boundaries is so predictable. If everyone in her life refuses to give her supply (attention), she's really in a jam. So she's compelled to react to boundaries, because they threaten her access to supply (attention). 

Having had a parent like this, stuck in this endless cycle of always needing more supply from me, but never relationship, never safety, never love, never protection, I opted out of the game. I've left her to find her own supply, without involving me.

It is not without heartache and heartbreak, but the other option is to give her the access to me. Too much damage is done to me and everyone around me, if I let that happen over and over. I gave her many many very good opportunities to change her approach with me before going NC and she messed up every single one. Years and years of patiently hoping she'd stop seeking supply from me and offer up something else, something half-way normal or healthy. Her rage and anger and resentment and disdain and disgust with me showed itself, and I could no longer live under this cloud of dysfunction. Some mothers resent their daughters. They are too far gone to be reached. That is how it felt. I could not reach her, despite trying. Like you have tried too.

I never wanted to discover that my own parent was so lost to a disorder, that she would always treat me with resentment and disdain, and be so casually abusive towards me. She was pathological in her need to destroy my boundaries, to get at the supply. I watched her for a while before going NC, and her work to destroy my boundaries, was breath taking. She could not allow me any boundaries. The gaslighting was unrelenting. It came from her fear that I would leave the relationship. Any attempt I made to be whole and feel safe, was seen as too much of a threat to her. So I left the relationship. 

That is the hand I was dealt, and there was no denying it once I got Out of the FOG.

Not all of us go NC but for me, NC was the only way to address her constant demand that I provide her with attention and supply. The verbal abuse she's capable of and more than willing to deploy when she doesn't get attention, caused so much damage. And despite my pleas, I could not get her to stop. I am sorry you're also dealing with some of this too.

Trees

[olivegirl]

I so wanted to believe for so long that my mother was not capable of sabotaging, smearing, backstabbing, and gaslighting me.

It took me a very long time to accept the reality because my mother would lovebomb me furiously when I would confront her with my suspicions.

She successfully smeared my sister, my cousins, my relatives, family friends and my in-laws against me. 

My sister and a few relatives have since come forward and admitted to me what my mother did and we have since been able to resume our relationships. 

Very validating!!  But we lost decades and that time can never be re-gained.

My mother essentially engaged in psychological warfare with me, and still to this day will claim to others that I am "confused, depressed, bitter."

I am completely almost 2 years now NC with her and I feel no guilt now.

But the first year was very difficult because I inexplicably missed the mother who would lovebomb me, I missed that fake version of her who I believed was trying to show me that deep down she really loved me.

But I know now that was part of the her performance.

Certainly I missed her because I was completely isolated and scapegoated;

I felt deep self-loathing, intense anxiety and I had become co-dependent with a sociopathic mother whose aim was to parasitically abuse me financially whilst avoiding exposure that she indeed is deeply in debt. 

I now feel relief that she can no longer play her mind games with me and she has been exposed to enough people in her circle that I do not question my need to be NC.

I am grateful for NC as I was truly losing my sanity and my sense of worth with Low Contact.

[Boat Babe]

Hi all. Just wanted to chime in on the part of the discussion about the poor choices that our disordered parents make.  My mother has "capacity" insomuch that she does not have dementia or a screamingly obvious mental health condition like psychosis. However, she consistently, regularly and predictably makes terrible choices that impact her life and, to a much lesser degree, my life.  It's the pathology and there's nothing I can do about it. And yes, it's tragic as her life has been so shit, as was my childhood. I am no longer enmeshed but do feel genuine pity for her but I refuse to let her awful decisions affect my life anymore.
You are going to get through this AliceWinter and be in a much better place.