Dissociation?

[moglow]

In a recent post, @wisingup said:

...She does not seem to remember the bad times, or remotely understand how traumatized her family members have been by her behavior during her rages. Perhaps she is pretending here, & if so she is a good actress.  Since those times don't factor in her memories, she looks shocked and hurt and betrayed when I try to talk about them.  And of course there will be no apologies or attempt to improve behavior that she denies ever engaging in. 

I would love to read more on this specific phenomenon, because there is some real black magic going on in the disordered person's brain.  It would be fascinating to study, if I wasn't on the front lines of it & still trying to cope.

Very familiar with mine alwo - to the point that if you dare bring up pretty much anything, md goes volcanic and eventually shuts down completely.

Not long ago another of our members had mentioned the PD in their life appearing to dissociate from events, and it felt like a gut punch. It keeps coming up, so I checked diagnostic criteria [for BPD since I think that's md's primary issue] and here we have it:

"Dissociation during times of stress is one of the main symptoms of BPD." [https://www.verywellmind.com/dissociation-in-borderline-personality-disorder-425482]

Somehow all this time I'd overlooked dissociation as literally one of the nine diagnostic criteria for BPD! Conversations with my brothers the past several months have made it painfully clear that she either doesn't or refuses to remember anything about our childhood. One brother challenged her to write down any and everything she remembers. In conversation for as far back as I can remember, md had no clue what we did, where we went, our school activities or sports events. There's no memory of shared experiences, happy times, reading stories or playing games, nothing. Flip side is, she's absolved of all the bad stuff because apparently that didn't happen either.

I'd mentioned elsewhere, during his last "visit" with md my older brother insisted that she make amends with me and that she owed me a huge apology for the way she's always treated me. She immediately went ballistic and got on the defensive, claimed I was spreading lies. After he left she contacted two other people who confirmed what he'd said and provided other things they'd witnessed. One of my brothers mentioned that a particular teacher had seen bruises, md's response? Well she's dead, I can't very well ask her about it! Totally missed the point - other people had witnessed her meltdowns and the outcome of them. It wasn't me spreading anything, but them choosing to tell her the truth.

It boggles my mind that for 20+ years she had four children in her home every day and she shut it all down. Whatever was going on with her back then, it's gone with no apparent regrets. She has no relationship with us now, has nothing to build on so doesn't even try.

This seems to have depersonalized it even more for me, thrown a whole other level of distance in there I hadn't expected. How can I have regrets or grieve something I truly never had at all? So I'm curious - Obv I'm not the only one. What are your stories of parents' apparent dissociation and does it help looking at it with a new lens?

[Srcyu]

Very, very interesting topic.
I can remember witnessing dissociation in her face as a child. I stared at her blank, unresponsive expression and knew that I was on my own. She was to blame for the death of my pet. I had reported to her that I thought the animal was dying. She wouldn't let my words touch her conscience. As further proof she didn't check on the animal and left it there for me to find after school, dead.

Deep breath: Looking at it through a new lens gives a name to the dead-eyed face that was my mother.

[moglow]

You have a point there, I'd not thought of that in a long time. I don't remember much dead eyed with mine but there were times when compassion was called for, and it just wasn't there, like she had nothing. Not even appropriate words, much less gestures of comfort. Everything was superficial and maybe she knew she didn't have it to give? 

I do remember her face contorted with rage, to the point where md looked like a different person. Then once that episode was finally over, her somehow being perky and chirpy as if all was right with the world. Up to and including her asking what was wrong with me as if nothing had happened at all. Now ... She may truly have shut down and have no memory of those times at all.

Don't get me wrong, she still doesn't get a pass. I don't think anyone ever taught her to stop and think, to use any restraint with how she treated others. Even when told repeatedly that she needs to reconsider and treat others as she'd want for herself, it never made a difference with her. She continued to run over people with no regard. I've told her, if I ever talked to or treated her as she has me all these years she'd be appalled and understandably so. Nothing.

While the dissociation itself may not be controllable (maybe by then it's gone too far for any cohesive thought?) You'd think the behavior and mindset leading up to that point ARE. Like that headlamp of an oncoming train, only theirs had no brakes I guess.

[Leonor]

I think the possibility of dissociation is very real with disordered people.

My own dxHPD mom once said that she just blocks out anything she finds upsetting because she is a "happy person" and her best friend, who happens to be a t., called her the "Queen of Denial," like it was so amusing, ha ha!

I lived with heavy dissociation for decades before I started my healing journey, but my dissociation was all over the place. I remembered and then forgot and then remembered again. Even today, all of a sudden something will pop into my brain and I'll tell my dh or t or grab my journal, and it turns out I remembered it already, even from years ago. I block out trauma, or my trauma responses.

But my mom's dissociation is very convenient. It's all stuff that happened to me, or to my step sibling. It's about stuff she said or did, or stuff other people did that I told her about. When she decided that she had (I kid you not) "secondary PTSD" that she somehow "caught" from mine (?), she was amazed to tell me she had completely dissociated the existence of my step-sibling - whom she bullied and emotionally abused relentlessly and who lived with us for years! Oops! I completely forgot about her!

Now that I have been exiled from her and her family (they all "chose sides"), I have literally been erased. Like in family obituaries! I would not be surprised if she has "forgotten" about me as well. I truly believe that in a very real psychological way that I have ceased to exist for her.

The difference to be made between disordered people and healthy - even traumatized or damaged - people is not whether they dissociate or lose their tempers or suffer mood changes, but how they respond once these behaviors are brought to their attention. Do they recognize that what the other person is saying is possible, even if they don't remember it? Are they able to acknowledge the other person's experience as valid for them, and empathize with their feelings? Are they able to self reflect and come to a measured decision about their own responsibility in the situation and consider how to engage in a healthy, adult and open way moving forward? Are they committed to working on their own health and making amends for any hurt they may have caused? Or is it just waifing ("I don't recall any of this, why are you attacking me?"), defensiveness ("Well, that  may be, but yooouuuu ...") or dismissal ("I have no idea what you're talking about.")

In other words, the disorder is not the dissociation. Dissociation is a symptom of trauma. The disorder is the absolute refusal to take responsibility for one's own actions and honest investment in improving relationships with people they have hurt.

[Srcyu]

There was only one person my mother would listen to - my father.
He kept her right more than once, but, her rage would rise up instead at being exposed. She directed that at me ofcourse when father wasn't around.
She detested being made to address her own behaviour and would blame me for, "telling tales."

It's a good question about whether or not they can control their behaviour prior to dissociation. The uncomfortable truth is that they probably can but the effort required is reserved for those they seek to impress.

[moglow]

Leonor, my mother was fond of saying "you have a mighty convenient memory" when she claimed to have said/done something I didn't remember (or at least not the way she described). I realized a while back that was pure projection and her covering her tracks, but I'd still not put the pieces together this way.

The difference to be made between disordered people and healthy - even traumatized or damaged - people is not whether they dissociate or lose their tempers or suffer mood changes, but how they respond once these behaviors are brought to their attention. Do they recognize that what the other person is saying is possible, even if they don't remember it? Are they able to acknowledge the other person's experience as valid for them, and empathize with their feelings? Are they able to self reflect and come to a measured decision about their own responsibility in the situation and consider how to engage in a healthy, adult and open way moving forward? Are they committed to working on their own health and making amends for any hurt they may have caused? Or is it just waifing ("I don't recall any of this, why are you attacking me?"), defensiveness ("Well, that  may be, but yooouuuu ...") or dismissal ("I have no idea what you're talking about.")

All of that too! The "convenience " of it is just appalling. Complete and absolute refusal to look at themselves while their child stands there taking it all on as their fault, they caused this, they are to blame for it. Not attempt to step back and let's talk about this or what can we do to fix this.

Black Cat, same with my stepfather - she contained her rages and tantrums around others fairly well all things considered. I don't remember any of the abuse happening when he was home. I think she presented us to him as unmanageable and she was doing the best she could. I'm not sure he had any idea of the extent of it but surely felt the undercurrents, us avoiding her, her just seething inside. Not sure how he approached it or just waited her out.

[wisingup]

Moglow - thanks for continuing the discussion on this topic.  This is the biggest source of my struggle - the absolute refusal to acknowledge her control or acknowledge her own behavior, and the willingness to sacrifice her children's mental health, peace of mind, etc. on the altar of maintaining a false self image. 

Ultimately, this has cost her everything, as she has no good relationships with anyone now.  But oh the cost to my brother and I as well.  I struggle daily with images of the good times & thinking if I had just managed the whole relationship differently, I could have avoided our current very painful estrangement.  Then the more logical part of my brain chimes in - YOU WERE JUST A KID!  You weren't supposed to have to "manage" your relationship with your primary caregiver who was supposed to be your role model.

The difference to be made between disordered people and healthy - even traumatized or damaged - people is not whether they dissociate or lose their tempers or suffer mood changes, but how they respond once these behaviors are brought to their attention. Do they recognize that what the other person is saying is possible, even if they don't remember it? Are they able to acknowledge the other person's experience as valid for them, and empathize with their feelings? Are they able to self reflect and come to a measured decision about their own responsibility in the situation and consider how to engage in a healthy, adult and open way moving forward? Are they committed to working on their own health and making amends for any hurt they may have caused? Or is it just waifing ("I don't recall any of this, why are you attacking me?"), defensiveness ("Well, that  may be, but yooouuuu ...") or dismissal ("I have no idea what you're talking about.")

This is really powerful and helpful Leonor.  I feel like I could manage a lot of poor behavior IF it were followed up by acknowledgement and apologies and genuine efforts to improve, but there is none of that ever.  Your words above help me to give myself a little break for not being able to "fix" everything & choosing to walk away.

[moglow]

In other words, the disorder is not the dissociation. Dissociation is a symptom of trauma. The disorder is the absolute refusal to take responsibility for one's own actions and honest investment in improving relationships with people they have hurt.

I keep going back to this: The dissociation is a symptom, one they've chosen repeatedly to overlook, deny and excuse at the expense of others, rather than the most basic effort required to look at it [and what they've been told] and make changes.

Wisingup, that we're expected to "manage" these relationships no matter what's thrown at us is just appalling, isn't it. Always tippy toeing around and trying to reimagine what's right in front of us, trying to see it through ever more fragile rose-coloured lenses. Until that day arrives when we just can't anymore. The silence and nothingness is comforting in ways it really shouldn't be - it's not good but so much better than the alternative we had.

[gcj07a]

The silence and nothingness is comforting in ways it really shouldn't be - it's not good but so much better than the alternative we had.

This whole thread is fascinating. I recently told my wife that the best I could hope for as a child was to be forgotten. I always liked it best when M dissociated (usually right after beating one of us or a phone call from her own mother or something like that). Usually she would just lay in bed or in her recliner and stare at the TV. It was especially nice when she would mix her wine with whatever narcotics she happened to have available. Sure, we had to fend for ourselves all day. But, on the other hand, no one got beaten for a whole day or lacerated with venomous words. You know, though, I always knew that she had more control than she let on because she always managed to get up and become imperious before my F came home. He wasn't allowed to see her in her weakness.