Seeing you as “negative”

[sunshine702]

So my partner is all Positive Psychology "Positive".  He is in Graduate Studies for Psychology and is big into that and Dialectical behavioral therapy. So he feels himself the expert and I the lay person.   

We have been having relationship conflict.

I keep being accused of being "negative".  So conflict to him is negative. Is how I see it.   Now granted I do not always come in the best tone but sometimes I do.  He thinks if I brought him problem x and was nice (positive) about it he would have no problem doing it. 

This angers me even more to come with a conflict and then to be told I am negative.  For me it is the anger when women are told to "watch their tone". As if you have no right to be frustrated sometimes.  Uhug this is such a toxic spiral. 

I certainly don't think I am completely negative although very frustrated in my relationship.  I could say the nice thing more. 

Do you guys have experiences being told you're negative? 

[sunshine702]

Yeah honestly feel I am hurting my relationship is often in shambles.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-creativity-cure/201611/taking-a-deeper-look-at-the-negative-person

[Poison Ivy]

I definitely got the sense from my ex-husband that me wanting to talk about problems was worse than whatever the problems were.

[SonofThunder]

Hi Sunshine,

Part of my stbx's traits was to set me up to be negative. What I mean by negative is cons vs pros, liabilities vs assets, unfavorable vs favorable. My wife would request something of me/us that she already knew was not going to be favorable with me. When I spoke my truthful opinion (which she already knew in advance), it was a perfect created gateway for her PD anger to step through, starting yet another conflict of how I was always the problem in the relationship. 

That kind of manipulation was very common in my 30 years of marriage and became a growing journal list of 'denials' that she would then use to punish me in a variety of ways within married life. She would regularly insert feminine vs masculine and role language into her tirades by telling me that because I was not favorable to her suggestion, that I must think i'm "king" of our home and that I can rule over her. #alwaysthevictim

I would suggest you possibly use knowledge of Top 100 PD traits found here on Out of the FOG at the personality disorders tab, to explore what the underlying (sometimes covert) motives are that cause these 'negative' events to occur in your relationship.  PD's are masters at (+)feeding at our (-)expense, even if it's to bait a 'negative' just so the script can be flipped for control; not really about the actual manipulative topic used as bait, but more about getting the nonPD to take the lure just for the PD's feeding on discord. 

#motiveiseverything

SoT

[sunshine702]

Honestly in his head he sees this world in which I ask for things and want my needs met as negative - unless I can ask in this magical nice way. It seems.  That we think the worst of each other.  And on this I would agree.  He feels I don't see the times where my needs are met and if I just looked on the bright side and gave him credit my perspective would completely change. of course there is negative bias - you tend to hear the criticism and have that stick with you.   We all are guilty of that - it's how the mind works.  Is it  that it is my fault about HOW I ask not that he is completely avoidant?  I am trying to work on my side of the street. 

He doesn't agree with the concept of "toxic positivity ". He think that is discounting "positive growth mindsets" like himself.  He has called me a crab trying to pull him back in the barrel before.  Unable to accept that he is happy.  Which hurts - I hope that is not me.  He has called me negative when I just discussing current events : trying to talk to him over dinner (and I guess news are sensationalized/negative.  But there is xyz thing that happened down the road to me is just that!  Xyz.  I am not consciously being negative.

I do think there is toxic positivity and it is being shamed when a normal emotion is anger / fear/ frustration/ grief. 

[sunshine702]

I found this.  https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-positivity-5093958#:~:text=It%20avoids%20authentic%20human%20emotion%3A%20Toxic%20positivity%20functions,turn%20these%20same%20ideas%20on%20ourselves%2C%20internalizing%20them.

[sunshine702]

And this.  Wow maybe I am not Negative maybe I am Unvalidated.  That certainly explains the scary work scenario where both his mom and he blamed me first for not doing their snap judgment.

I was left completely UNVALIDATED. 

https://www.verywellmind.com/it-s-time-to-ditch-toxic-positivity-in-favor-of-emotional-validation-6502330

[Catothecat]

I've experienced this attitude in some narcs I've known.  They place their own responses to anything and everything on a pedestal, and if your response doesn't match theirs it automatically becomes wrong.  They can't leave it alone, it must be addressed, because it threatens their self-image of being the know-it-all.

He wants you to address problems in a "nice" way so he'll respond. Right there he's controlling the terms of the relationship.  He's decided he has the right to define negative and positive.  Is that for your benefit or for his?

[sunshine702]

Yes he does see his rational detached pronouncements of "me being negative" or "not asking in a nice way" as superior.  If only I would take his expert advice I would not be having these problems.   He uses the word victim a lot to or victim mentality when I plead my case.  A label I despise being thrown around.  Of course I am not a victim.  Of course I have my side of the street of what is happening.  That really makes me very reactive.  I hear - asking for or addressing something is negative and you are playing the victim.  When I think these are rational straightforward requests. 

Jerry Wise talks about Systems Feelings -  this is all VERY THAT!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d1gOWxn-VTw&pp=ygUbU3lzdGVtcyBmZWVsaW5ncyBqZXJyeSB3aXNl

[Cat of the Canals]

"Why are you always so negative?" felt like a constant refrain from my PDmom from my teen years on. I wasn't ever allowed to be angry or in a bad mood or complain about anything unless I wanted to hear how negative I was all the time. I genuinely think she believes I should be a perfectly happy, cheerful automaton. Anything less is a disappointment. Unvalidated is definitely the right word for it.

[square]

I think user is right about your direction.

It's not easy at all, but it's the answer. If he believes that you having a need is inherently wrong, and he justifies this by saying you are either communicating the need wrong or having the wrong "need," there is nothing you can do to change his mentality, and certainly no magic way to communicate needs in the right way or have the right needs in his eyes.

I like to think of this as a game of Calvinball, so named for the six year old in the comic strip Calvin and Hobbes. When playing one of his very imaginative games with his philosophically minded stuffed tiger, he would change the rules whenever the tiger scored a point, thus nullifying the point. Maybe the goalposts are moved, or it doesn't count when the wind is blowing from the west, or you have to close your eyes when throwing the ball.

But Calvin maintains he is the sole arbiter of the game rules, so he changes them at will, changes them back, twists into a pretzel.

If you try to follow the rules, you lose. Because it's Calvinball. That's the game.

So your task, and I grant you it's not an easy one, is to stop playing Calvinball.

Stop trying to learn the rules. Stop debating the rules. Stop playing the game.

The fact is, you will have needs and you will need to address them.

First, meet your needs elsewhere. Stop expecting normal caring partnership stuff. You've tried. You've gotten your answer.

Then, with this stuff you still can't avoid, stop taking Calvinball seriously. It's a stupid game played by a selfish six year old. He can explain the rules and in your very soul you can go, uh huh. And stop twisting yourself into a pretzel.

You cannot make him meet any of your needs. You can try but it's up to him. But you can, little by little, stop taking his silly game seriously, and you can reduce the hurt and confusion and anxiety.

It won't bring you closer. But neither will his game.

[notrightinthehead]

 

[sunshine702]

Calvinball.  Perfect description.  On good days I am very independent, and from time to time he is very attentive.  Sometimes I want to be #1.   I hit a bit of a depression knowing that probably isn't going to happen and there is not a thing I can do about it.

Yep - drop the rope.  Care factor zero.   

[bloomie]

Sunshine you have already received such great insights here. I have benefitted from reading this conversation as well, so thank you for taking us all along on this journey.

I wanted to revisit "Unvalidated". That you have hit a low point in realizing this is understandable and I am so sorry to hear it. Moving thru the reality of your H interpreting you expressing needs, feelings, even what is happening down the road as negative is a tough pill to swallow.

At the heart of it, your H is avoiding having to address you as an equal partner in this relationship, your needs, your insights, your experiences of and with him. This is toxic shaming into silence and insisting you live with and accommodate the status quo.

This could be a way of avoiding accountability and responsibility within the relationship and keeping you in a step down position.

Part of working through this may be considering the ability of your H to have a productive, respectful, honest conversation with you working toward solutions when an issue comes up. Is he willing and able to do that? If he is quick to avoid by labeling anything he doesn't want to deal with as negative? Then you pivot and move forward with that truth as a filter for how you do and don't engage going forward. 

The sharing of our lives.. the bearing witness to the difficulties, struggles, feelings, and tender caring for each other to the best of our ability is what marriage, as it is meant to be, is. Having someone so mishandle our deepest needs and expressions is terribly painful and we almost always look to how we are somehow doing or being 'wrong'. Because I am guessing (just taking a wild shot in the dark here) that your H is always 'right'.

I hope this conversation has given you some insights and strength!

[sunshine702]

Yes.  Currently I am dealing with his mom's hoarding behavior.  And she gets a ton Of empathy and understanding from my partner and I get little. Listen I get it - yes it is painful to lose your husband. But I can not see what is sentimental  or worth anything about broken plastic pipe and rusted out tires and a bathtub from the 80's.  But she is supposed to be cleaning up the junk field directly behind our house.  It has been a year. And they both have done very little about it and frankly it made me cry last week.  I do not want to live like that. So I got a junk hauler today for MY things back there and she agreed to three items - which I completely respected. Nothing else went away.  Well I did some cleanup after - put empty plastic buckets in a trash can - not hauled away just in the trash only to have her digging ALL the way down for a scrap of frayed wire that might have copper in it and taking items from that trash can (broken plastic pipe to her sisters!  This is problem behavior imho —this is clear hoarding to me.

But again just like always I am wrong. I am mean.  She is a saint and needs empathy and well I don't know what to do but cry

[sunshine702]

Is he able to have a respectful productive honest conversation about a tough subject like how to deal with the junk field of his parent's shop stuff.

No.  Not at all.  I am finally understanding that.  Like Ramani says YOU ARE ASKING FOR THE MILK ASILE iN HOME DEPOT.

No if I bring it up he will Flood like an Avoidant and alternately scream, mock and silent treatment me for several days.  It's Calvinball.  I also just reread that user that was screamed at in the grocery store.  It is that level of anger.  Not in public but that over crackers.

I honestly do not think he deals with ANY emotion well!! I want to get this written out. When we first moved here I came  back from Safeway grocery store in the closer expensive resort part of the town.  He asked how it went I (joked) that I hate their app with the fire of 1000 suns.  Because I did.  For the chips to be $1 not $6 you had to download the coupon just right on your phone and I had a lot of trouble with the system.

He BLEW UP at me.  I was left really shocked.  What the heck did I do??!!  What the heck was this about??!!  It really stuck with me and scared me.  I was frustrated but it was not code red.

So no despite all the fancy therapy talk of DBT and Soft Startup and DEAR MAN — none of that really works.  It will be a fight.  It's Calvinball