one-sided conversations with needful friends

[bee well]

Hello,
I'm posted something I had recently posted on Hattie's post, "feeling overwhelmed by friend's grief" I'm putting it here because I think it might be appropriate to post it on a different thread, as I realized after posting that I did not want to direct Hattie's thread onto my problem. Hattie, I'm not sure if you read my comment, but if I gave that impression I apologize.

I've edited my original post slightly to make it clearer.

Here it is:

(Just as a preface: fortunately I am now working on dealing with my own history and the "why" I have found myself in situations similar to the one described below, over and over, so I can prevent it from happening in the future. Unfortunately I have to deal with the ones that already exist before things get to a more manageable point.)

I have been engaging in one way conversations with a close friend for many years. We used to have a more reciprocal relationship, and I keep telling myself it'll get better. It doesn't. She's been a dear friend and I don't want to abandon her. Perhaps I am giving too much weight to the past. Unfortunately though, she has been going through some severe traumas as of late. I have dealing with some serious stuff of my own this year, and I am also trying to navigate setting boundaries in my healing process.

I  recently cancelled some holiday plans with my friend because I've realized these  interactions are draining and harmful to me, especially considering my present circumstances. I'm just not emotionally equipped to absorb all of her venting. It's also quite demoralizing that she rarely if ever asks me how I am doing except at the end of a two hour one-way conversation (this is a pattern that precedes her recent traumas.) Or when I contact her afterward expressing concern, I get a one line, short answer, or no answer. It's as if once she has released all the tension she just goes on as usual, and then pops up down the line needing to  vent again.

Anyway I plan on waiting to see how things go when we talk over the holidays and then , if things continue as they have, I'm going to tell her how I feel. What I intend to say is that I can't go on like this, passively listening  as she vents, not acknowledging feedback when I do make suggestions. (It appears to me as if she feels the majority of her problems someone or someone else's fault, and she hasn't made any effort over the years to change her situation.)

My only hope is that maybe she will come around in the next conversation, when I tell her what I have been going through, and perhaps we can have a two way conversation. (While I have cancelled some current plans we will likely speak over the next month.)

I have already offered advice (unsolicited, unfortunately) in the past. I know it's not my job to fix her so I told her I am not the right person to give the help she might need, and suggested some options. She did not respond to my suggestions, positively or negatively. (She was in the middle of a crisis preceding her latest traumatic life event and I did not insist, I just left it at that)

My concern is that I don't want to add to her pain by telling her these things just a few months or so after her trauma, and I know she is struggling at the holidays. On the other hand it is a source of extreme stress for me and at times resentment that is not healthy for me.  (As you can see I'm in a double bind).

I don't want to prolong the situation but on the other hand I have empathy for my friend, and feel badly for her.

So my question to anyone who might be listening is this: do you think it would be destabilizing for my friend if I tell her how I feel before the New Year? Any thoughts on this? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[kelleron]

Hello again bee well! It just so happens I went through something similar to what you are going through now, maybe I can help in some way haha.

I cannot say I know your relationship with your friend well so do take what I say with a grain of salt .

I went through something similar with a group of friends - people I thought were my best friends. In reality, the group was split into "complainers" and "audience members" and I fell into the latter group. It was just as you described - they'd complain for hours, one at a time. We never really discussed positive things in the group. Sometimes, I noticed some patterns, and would offer advice (albeit also unrequested from them ). Generally, it was not taken well by the group. It was not in the culture to offer advice, or solve root causes. The group culture was to vent, listen and repeat.

Well, like you it took a toll on me. I learnt something about them and myself. If all the "complainers" want to do is rant, I don't see the point in it. Chronic complaining is different from venting. Venting is a way to release emotional tension in a safe place so you can feel empowered to do something about your problem. For "complainers", complaining IS the solution. They feel good once they've vented, and think that's the solution, so they never actually fix the recurring problems and stressors in their lives.

From what you have written, your friend seems like a "complainer" to me. They have a problem, and instead of working to solve it, they find you to give them "support" and feel better. They see the listener as an "audience" - there only to absorb and not say much, if anything at all. I know it is hard to hear. But in my opinion, you are doing everything right for this relationship, and this person is not in the state of mind to take advice. They might not be the kind of person who actually wants to solve their problems, at least right now. Whether it is this singular trauma, or a larger pattern of behaviour, I can't know. But, honestly I think if they wanted to problem-solve, they would be open to your advice. You wouldn't need to fret and wonder whether to give your thoughts or not. (Though wanting to help your friend is completely natural, and is a sign of true caring ). I don't know your friend, but I'd think it'd be more obvious if she wanted to hear advice.

Actually, I feel like you might want to take more time apart from this friend. You say their behaviour is causing you to feel demoralised to around them! You also say it has been a one-sided relationship for years! Those are some complex and serious emotions their behaviour is causing in you.

Remember that this person is an adult. If they have issues, they can ask for help, but ultimately they are responsible for solving it, not you. Talking at you ain't a long-lasting solution, either.

I kinda feel like the best thing you could do for your friend is to honestly and respectfully tell them their behaviour is affecting your mental health, and that you need some time away from them. Offer to reconnect in the future. At least that's what I'd do. They are free to be a "complainer" if that's who they want to be. They just shouldn't do that around you so much if they want a relationship with you.

Anyway, that last bit is some unsolicited advice and my opinion on life haha. At the end of the day, I feel like every adult is responsible for setting their own boundaries. If the boundaries are not set well, like what I did in the past, well...I had to deal with the consequences haha. Mainly a lot of resentment and feelings of low self-esteem. Feel free to do you!

[bee well]

Hi Again Kelleron,

Thanks for your reply. I apologize for taking so long to respond on this one.    I've been over on another thread, and haven't come in here for a as you have seen. It's been good to see you on that thread as well.

Yep, you sure hit the nail on the head. "Complainers and audience members."

My friend is a complainer. Venting is another thing altogether. And you are right,  my friend hasn't wanted to do anything to find a solution to improve things. Talking "at" me is not a solution. It's almost always someone else's fault. Then after everything expelled, I'll follow up with a message and its almost like nothing happened.

There have been times where we were on the telephone and  I would put the phone down, go get a snack, and come back, and the one sided conversation was still going. 

That's not cool on my part either.  In retrospect I would have said, sorry I need to go.  Thankfully those conversations happened a long time ago. I wouldn't do it again.

This is not isolated behaviour and I own my part in participating for so long and not saying something about something that was making me uncomfortable.

(Better to feel the "discomfort" of speaking up, right?)

What complicates things now is that when I am ready to do something about this, the friend is going through something that from a human point of view, merits attention. (Difficult backstory here, but still no excuse). This person was also there to help me through something similar long ago. But to be fair, I still asked how my friend was when I was being helped, unlike what is happening now. The problem has become that of late, there is always a tragedy that prevents me from speaking my part.

I think at times I feel an obligation because our friendship goes back so long. The good thing is I realize I have a choice to change my role in the situation.

So back to now, I cancelled one of our our holiday plans because I do not have the emotional bandwidth to deal with it now. We'll likely schedule a call before Christmas.

I have been setting these boundaries, step by step.

I'm hoping by a stretch of the imagination that my friend's (fairly) recent loss will be some sort of a wake up call. I'm observing. Then, when a little more time has passed, maybe around New Year's, I'm going to let my friend know. (Actually, have decided that if I have another long conversation and there is little interest in what I've been going through, that will be it.)

if I have been able to stand up to my FOO (who is a whole 'nother story , my friend is a Saint compared to FOO)  then well, I have it in me to stand up to my friend. In any case, the changes I have been making would be in vain if I let things go on the way they are.

"Feel free to do you..." I like the sound of that :=)

Thanks again for writing, and also for sharing your experiences. I appreciate how we offer each other reciprocal support on this forum.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi bee well,

You describe a familiar situation where the friendship that used to feel 2 sided now feels 1 sided.

Honestly the best advice I've seen about the situation (where we want our friend to stop venting to us without even checking in to see if we are ok holding that space for then), is the advice that focuses on a few steps:

First, you need to think about what you want or need from this friendship. What do you miss and what do you wish you felt when you are around her or talking with her or doing something with her?

Second, think about how much of that, seems realistic right now.

She's getting what she needs out of her convos with you. She's getting something she wants and needs.

Under those circumstances, where they have found someone to listen to them, people are usually defensive or upset if we start telling them how we feel. It was all about them and they liked that- even when they refuse to admit it (which many refuse to admit)

If they cared, they would have asked us long ago how we were feeling....and you wouldn't be stuck wondering how to get her to care how you feel.

You're the one who is unhappy with the way things are going. Telling her how you feel, can lead to defenses coming out. She may defend herself or make you defend yourself or both. She may say how could you do this to me.

I would prepare myself for those potential reactions.

Honestly at this point in my own life I need friends who can take responsibility for their needs. If she needs to tell you about her venting for an hour per week, she needs to say "I really just need you to listen to me vent for the next hour". She needs to be able to respect your time. If you only want to hear it for 30 minutes then she should be grateful for that!

There are a lot of people that we will outgrow along the way in life.

Or there are friendships that simply come to an end after years. They want things we cant give them. You may decide to wait until the new year to tell her where you are at. Its really up to you.

What is her track record when you have needed her emotional support in the past? Is she the type to thoughtfully wait until a better time to talk with you about something potentially upsetting?

If or when you decide to speak up, a way to address this sort of situation is to say "i know you've been through some losses lately. I'm here for you to talk about it for one convo a week. And what I need is to be able to tell you a bit about my stuff each week too"

Going through trauma, she can still think about what this friendship means to her. If she really can't think about balancing the needs you each have then she probably needs a therapy session because friendships are about seeing one another as equals who give and take support, not free therapists. Therapists listen without sharing how their day is going. That is why we have therapists. For when people need that.

I would not give someone 2 hours of my time after they show such little interest in me and my life. I once had someone over for coffee and she talked at me for an hour and then finally asked me how i was doing - as she was walking out the door. Didnt even hear my response.  I never invited her for coffee again.

Next time she calls tell her you have 30 mins to talk and see how she reacts. Some people tantrum as soon as someone sets a time limit on a phone call. I don't. Its respect to say "i only have 3o mins today".

Trees

[bee well]

Hi Treesgrowslowly,

I'm glad you wrote. I appreciate your breaking it down for me like that.

Putting a time limit on it is also very good advice.

I also agree about asking before we just come out and start pouring out our problems. This is something I have learned not to do myself--we never know what someone is dealing with on their end when we call.

Last night after I posted I was thinking about how telling my friend probably won't bring any results. I think this has been going on too long to fix. Telling my friend will be for me, not for anyone else, when and if I do it.

I can't change the fact I let this go on for so long but I can change the future.

I have noticed my friend has some behaviour patterns/attitudes that could be described as vulnerably narcissistic. I don't know where on the spectrum, I'm not qualified to say, but it appears some of this involved. If this is so, the possibility this person will change is very low.

My last two messages went unanswered. They weren't wasn't just a "hi how are ya" or things which could go unanswered longer. I have been guilty of taking too long to answer messages at times, so I try to give leeway there in any case. We all get busy or distracted but this seems to be part of a larger pattern, of onesided conversation followed by disappear.

I won't be contacting my friend again as long as those messages go unanswered. If Christmas has to pass so be it. Not out of a passive aggressive spirit but because I've got a lot going on with me, and I don't have time and energy to be worrying about this stuff.

On a related note, the sad thing about this is that after I went NC with family and started addressing my own issues, I realized I have been moored in these types of relationships for a very long time. It It appears that most of the unhealthy relationships are going to have to fall by the wayside so I can start constructing healthier ones. It's a lot of work but it's also helping me to change some of my own habits so I can be a better person.

There's a good chance I will tell my friend, but I am not expecting good results. This person has always gotten upset ot defensive when I express my feelings about unfairness. It's sad but I don't think I would be unhappy if the friendship eventually ended. I'd be sad, but not unhappy.

We'll see how it plays out. Time will tell.

Thanks again for writing Trees. Great nickname, by the way!

[bee well]

Update: I have just received a message from my friend of the kind I haven't received in a very long time. My friend seem to express genuine interest in me and as in a much better place.

We'll see how things go forward. One thing I know is I am not going to continue being the passive listening recipient of one way conversations.

I wonder if my friend really vulnerable narcissistic tendencies or if it's a bad case of  "N fleas." In any case it's not really the label the matters, even if it helps us understand what we are dealing with. What's important is the behaviour.

As I have said, we'll see....Thanks again for helping me with this.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi bee well (another great screen name! I'm always amazed when people find great screen names like this!).

That is hopeful that she has replied and it sound genuine. It likely is coming from a real place.

I've been searching for peace from PD toxicity my entire life...I say this because it has been years and years of searching for "the" answer to the puzzle of relationships. When will the pieces ever fit together? It is a feeling I've had and when I read about your own reflections on your past, and how you are changing and seeing your role in past friendships, I can see that maybe we have that seeking in common.

This past year, a puzzle piece that came together for me, is that people are in states, they have moods, they are in a certain mood or state when they text (or don't text) us back. We can't know what that state or mood is, but we try to infer it, because we want to know if we can trust this person or not. 

For example, back in 2020, someone I've known for years, texted me out of the blue, after I had not heard from them for over a year. All of a sudden they texted and wanted a familiar, engaged conversation, after I had not heard from them, truly, for like years. They were acting like we were close buds, when that was not the case.

For about a month, I replied back and thought to myself, oh, she's probably in a place now where she wants to connect and be friends. Then after a month, as fast as she started texting, she stopped again.

I was so hurt. I tried to sort out why someone would behave like this, and what I could do to fix what had happened. Then someone pointed out something to me that I had not even thought about. They pointed out to me that she was probably just bored the day she texted me.

Wow, that changed my entire view of the situation, once I sat and imagined her, sitting at home, feeling bored, and deciding on a whim, to text me.

Prior to imagining that possibility, I assumed, that she had thought about this more carefully, and decided to reach out to me to connect, and have some sort of on-going thing, you know...a friendship?

Once I thought about the possibility that she was simply bored that day, it helped me to realize that I don't know what state people are in when the are texting me.

Sometimes they are bored, sometimes they are in a place of truly feeling concerned for us. And I do think that sometimes, people get into a mood where they feel 'ready' and confident that they want a connection with us.

But I've read a lot about self-help and post-traumatic growth. Those moods come and go. Right now I'm listening to some podcasts that explain the need to keep practicing post-traumatic growth work. That this work 'never ends'.

Some of us are mature, we realize, that texting someone because we are bored, is not very genuine. Some people live their lives, just doing what they want and not caring how it affects the people around them. I have met a lot of those people. They will do things when they are bored, and then next week, oh they are not bored so they disappear.

I do believe that there are days where we feel ready to reach out, ready to bring our 'best self' to the friendship. I hope that your friend is able to take some time to really hear what you want to say to her over the next while.

From what I've experienced, most people want their mood accommodated, no matter what it is. They will seek out the people who know how to do that accommodating.

They will seek us out, because they have seen us do it before. When their fleas came up (which they don't see as fleas), they know that we were kind, patient, accommodating.

So when you wrote about wondering if your friend has fleas, that is how I have come to understand fleas. Sometimes we feel ok, and sometimes the fleas are back. Which is why communities like ours talk so much about boundaries. There's so much going on for everyone around us these days, without boundaries, friendships end up one-sided...One person gets what they need, while the other person waits for 'their turn'.

All of this is easier said than done.

Finding 2-way friendships is hard.

Don't blame yourself for being in 1-way friendships in the past. They are everywhere. Most, if not all people with empathy, have found themselves in more than a few 1-way friendships. You yourself, cannot make a friendship a 2-way friendship.

Trees

[bee well]

Hi Trees,

Thanks for sharing your insight.

Yes, we do have that seeking the answer, trying to figure it out quality in common. I think it's very constructive when we use it to understand ourselves  so we can do better.

It sounds like you have  learned a lot from your experience.

Lately I have found personally that the less I  give other people "rent free space in my head" for lack of a better expression. the more peaceful I am. That's not to say there isn't a lot of planning ahead when dealing with difficult/toxic people.

That's true, we have no idea what mood people are in when they pop out of the blue.

The starting and stopping again can be very perplexing. Certainly, when people suddenly reappear as if they were never gone (almost with a sort of amnesia) and try to pick up where they left off it's not reasonable to think that we will just perk right up and be available.

In the case of the person I described, I can't expect consistency at this point.

I have decided to put in a wait before responding policy. I think this will help me to not get caught up in "euphoric recall" and to see things more objectively.

People can change, but history is all we have to go on until enough time passes for trust to build up.

On the other hand, yeah, trying to to change a one way friendship into a two way friendship by using patience is like taking medicine and waiting for the other person's headache to go away (to put a twist on an old adage). It makes no sense and if it happens it's not because of something we did.

I've known this person most of my life, so it's hard for me to just cut my losses, but I'm ready for whatever happens as a result of boundaries that are put in place.

Thanks again.

Bee Well

[JenniferSmith]

Last year, I got a voicemail from a friend I had lost touch with 7-8 years ago. I was quite shocked.  We hadn't been that close before this friend had moved away to another state, so I was surprised to hear from her. I waited a couple of days and then texted back. Very slowly over the next few months, we began texting a bit, and then she called me.

Gradually we reconnected and now I feel like our friendship is back to where it was before we had drifted apart.  Its been a pleasant surprise.  But I can easily see how it could have fallen apart at any point.  For whatever reason, we both seemed to want to be back in contact, so we both made an effort.  Had it been one-sided, it would never work. I think from when I first heard from her after all these years, I made a conscious decision that I was only going to reciprocate here efforts, as I had no interest in an imbalanced friendship.

[bee well]

Hi Jennifer,
I'm glad you reconnected with your friend, and glad you wrote what you did.

It seems there are different types of friends who want to rekindle friendships.

There are those who pop up out of nowhere because they are bored (those usually disappear and reapper just as quickly) and those who we drift away from and then for whatever reason we reconnect and the friendship picks up where it left off, and starts growing again.

What's key is reciprocity.

I'm glad you found your friend again! :=)