Is peace only possible through no contact?

[Adrianna]

I've been studying narcissism quite a bit and I have yet to come across any successful stories of maintaining a happy, peaceful life with full or reduced contact with the pd person.

I have had reduced contact with nana and even that has been exhausting. As she gets older, the demands get worse. The past few months in particular have been difficult. There was a UTI event this summer where she seemed loopy, so I took her to hospital. Nurses said any UTI in an elder can cause that behavior. Doctor at hospital though said it was so incredibly mild it shouldn't have caused any cognitive changes. I suspect it was an act. It coincided with the niece going away in a trip. She still went on the trip.

She had another crisis claiming to have pneumonia. Took her to ER. Nothing wrong, mild  cough. More attention.

That week I knew she'd pull another stunt, felt it coming, then she falls and hits her head. No hospital stay, sent home, angry she didn't admitted to get a room. Wanted a nice comfy room where she could be waited on. Whether she fell on purpose or by accident I'll never know.

So that fall resulted in a scrape in her leg that required daily bandage changes. Bonus she gets people to visit more and change the bandage. Told her Sunday wound looks healed, don't need the bandage anymore. She argued she does. I said well up to you but I'm not changing it anymore.

Next day I'm in my pajamas and I get a call

"Adrianna, I fellllll! Again! I'm bleeding."

At this point I'm like seriously? I said I'm in my pajamas here how bad is it.

"Fine, I'll just bleed to death then!"

Ugh. So of course I go down. Interesting the scrape is right under her knee, easy spot where she could change it herself (other one was on back of leg). I said oh look, this is a spot where you can change the bandage yourself.

"Nooooo! I can't seeeee! Someone will have to do it for me!"

I wish I had a camera to know if she fell or if she scraped herself on purpose. I don't trust her anymore.

I'm taking her to doctor today. I want it on record she fell a second time in a month. Doctor suggested a full psych evaluation which I will schedule. No clue how I'll get her to agree to that.

Her verbal abuse is new. She's never been as nasty as she has been lately. She called my sweet , kind, mature, responsible son a brat a couple months ago. She said it to me not him. I was furious. She ended up calling to say she knows she said something bad and she's sorry but she claimed to not remember what she said! Does an apology count if you don't know what you're apologizing for?

One of the therapists going in did a cognition test and she scored mild dementia.

I want to get her placed but she will likely have to go to a facility that specializes in psych issues, or sell end up in the memory or dementia unit where they handle problem behaviors. And she has problem behaviors. Demanding, manipulative, bossy, rude, wails at night so people can't sleep, pushing the button for service more than necessary, doesn't comply with orders to not walk without assistance, etc. She's a nightmare,

I made the mistake of trying the love route and hugging her at every visit. She's a human being right and we should all love one another. Mistake. That led to her being even more clingy. Last time I left her house (to visit my pd father in rehab who supposedly was dying according to his friend but nothing wrong), I didn't hug her. Then she left me a message whining "you said you loved me, then you just drive away!" She knew where I was going. She wanted the attention on her.

I'm trying to line up all my ducks in a row to have her placed somewhere. I know it's not quick process. I know she technically has to agree to it and if she refuses can be sent home, unless I get her declared incompetent? I don't know how that works. I don't want guardianship.

I'm going to turn off my home answering machine. I had told her the other night when I had to run down that she's not nice to me or others and she should work on that. I came home yesterday to a message saying "its your grandmother the witch calling. I can't do anything right" or some such nonsense. Guilt trip unsuccessful. No callback.

I've been in frequent talks with her doctors case manager and social worker. They are suggesting the psych evaluation, I am nervous because she could pull off the right answers that she thinks they'd want to hear, but if there is some dementia starting, I hope they'd pick it up.

I'd really like to go no contact but I'm her health care proxy and power of attorney.

[lkdrymom]

In a word...yes

Your first mistake was going down to her after the second 'fall'.  If she was so bad she should have called 911.  My father pulled that fake head injury once when it wasn't bad enough for the ER, but he wanted to go to the ER over his constipation and the AL would not send him so he claimed his fall earlier when he hit his head was bothering him.   They aren't as feable as people would like to believe.  Many can still manipulate to get what they want.  My father can con he nurses at AL but I usually see right through it.

Going forward, any calls from her go to voicemail first.  Pick and choose what you answer.  One time I got a 5am call from the local hospital to come and pick up my father. It went to voicemail.  I got one ever 15 minutes for over an hour.  Finally got up and showered knowing I was going to get stuck with this little duty. Last call was a message from my father for me to 'not worry' as they called one of his LOCAL friends to come and get him.  Makes much more sense to him to call me who is 20 miles away rather than a friend who is right around the corner. He doesn't want to 'bother' them.

[p123]

In a word...yes

Your first mistake was going down to her after the second 'fall'.  If she was so bad she should have called 911.  My father pulled that fake head injury once when it wasn't bad enough for the ER, but he wanted to go to the ER over his constipation and the AL would not send him so he claimed his fall earlier when he hit his head was bothering him.   They aren't as feable as people would like to believe.  Many can still manipulate to get what they want.  My father can con he nurses at AL but I usually see right through it.

Going forward, any calls from her go to voicemail first.  Pick and choose what you answer.  One time I got a 5am call from the local hospital to come and pick up my father. It went to voicemail.  I got one ever 15 minutes for over an hour.  Finally got up and showered knowing I was going to get stuck with this little duty. Last call was a message from my father for me to 'not worry' as they called one of his LOCAL friends to come and get him.  Makes much more sense to him to call me who is 20 miles away rather than a friend who is right around the corner. He doesn't want to 'bother' them.

I get this too. I live 20+ miles away as well. Trouble is dad won't leave voicemails he just rings - like every 10 mins for hours and hours.

I've worked out - if he leaves a message then I'll KNOW what the issue is and its not urgent. If he rings every 10 mins then it MUST be urgent and life or death....

I'm glad I live 30 mins way otherwise I'd be the "ambulance alternative"

[p123]

I've been studying narcissism quite a bit and I have yet to come across any successful stories of maintaining a happy, peaceful life with full or reduced contact with the pd person.

I have had reduced contact with nana and even that has been exhausting. As she gets older, the demands get worse. The past few months in particular have been difficult. There was a UTI event this summer where she seemed loopy, so I took her to hospital. Nurses said any UTI in an elder can cause that behavior. Doctor at hospital though said it was so incredibly mild it shouldn't have caused any cognitive changes. I suspect it was an act. It coincided with the niece going away in a trip. She still went on the trip.

She had another crisis claiming to have pneumonia. Took her to ER. Nothing wrong, mild  cough. More attention.

That week I knew she'd pull another stunt, felt it coming, then she falls and hits her head. No hospital stay, sent home, angry she didn't admitted to get a room. Wanted a nice comfy room where she could be waited on. Whether she fell on purpose or by accident I'll never know.

So that fall resulted in a scrape in her leg that required daily bandage changes. Bonus she gets people to visit more and change the bandage. Told her Sunday wound looks healed, don't need the bandage anymore. She argued she does. I said well up to you but I'm not changing it anymore.

Next day I'm in my pajamas and I get a call

"Adrianna, I fellllll! Again! I'm bleeding."

At this point I'm like seriously? I said I'm in my pajamas here how bad is it.

"Fine, I'll just bleed to death then!"

Ugh. So of course I go down. Interesting the scrape is right under her knee, easy spot where she could change it herself (other one was on back of leg). I said oh look, this is a spot where you can change the bandage yourself.

"Nooooo! I can't seeeee! Someone will have to do it for me!"

I wish I had a camera to know if she fell or if she scraped herself on purpose. I don't trust her anymore.

I'm taking her to doctor today. I want it on record she fell a second time in a month. Doctor suggested a full psych evaluation which I will schedule. No clue how I'll get her to agree to that.

Her verbal abuse is new. She's never been as nasty as she has been lately. She called my sweet , kind, mature, responsible son a brat a couple months ago. She said it to me not him. I was furious. She ended up calling to say she knows she said something bad and she's sorry but she claimed to not remember what she said! Does an apology count if you don't know what you're apologizing for?

One of the therapists going in did a cognition test and she scored mild dementia.

I want to get her placed but she will likely have to go to a facility that specializes in psych issues, or sell end up in the memory or dementia unit where they handle problem behaviors. And she has problem behaviors. Demanding, manipulative, bossy, rude, wails at night so people can't sleep, pushing the button for service more than necessary, doesn't comply with orders to not walk without assistance, etc. She's a nightmare,

I made the mistake of trying the love route and hugging her at every visit. She's a human being right and we should all love one another. Mistake. That led to her being even more clingy. Last time I left her house (to visit my pd father in rehab who supposedly was dying according to his friend but nothing wrong), I didn't hug her. Then she left me a message whining "you said you loved me, then you just drive away!" She knew where I was going. She wanted the attention on her.

I'm trying to line up all my ducks in a row to have her placed somewhere. I know it's not quick process. I know she technically has to agree to it and if she refuses can be sent home, unless I get her declared incompetent? I don't know how that works. I don't want guardianship.

I'm going to turn off my home answering machine. I had told her the other night when I had to run down that she's not nice to me or others and she should work on that. I came home yesterday to a message saying "its your grandmother the witch calling. I can't do anything right" or some such nonsense. Guilt trip unsuccessful. No callback.

I've been in frequent talks with her doctors case manager and social worker. They are suggesting the psych evaluation, I am nervous because she could pull off the right answers that she thinks they'd want to hear, but if there is some dementia starting, I hope they'd pick it up.

I'd really like to go no contact but I'm her health care proxy and power of attorney.

Oh fake illnesses.... Dad count so far.

1. GP refuses to come out now and insists he comes to surgery. (Dad does live literally half a mile away but refuses to get taxi).
2. District Nurse has discharged him about 5 times (he needs checks for warfarin) and told him to go to surgery because hes not house bound. He keeps getting back on books because he talks GP receptionist into booking him in).
3. Last ambulance came 8 hours after he runig them. Hes had about 20 calls in last year, 95% of which they check him then leave.
4. 2 fake head injuries. Both times because he "had a cold" pretty much but was convinced he needed to be admotted. GP refused, ambulance refused, so next day "he hit his head". Honestly...

[Starboard Song]

We of course cannot fully understand your situation from your post. PD is not binary, it is not something you either have or don't. So there are no one-size-fits-all, facile answers to your question. But in general, it is entirely possible to achieve peace through means other than no contact.

That's pretty rich coming from me. We have been no contact with my in-laws for 4 years now. So of course, it depends. These are extremely hard situations, you ultimately have to make your own choice, and I support you all the way. But in your post, you seem to be aware of opportunities for improved contact management, improved boundaries, and more discipline. Given the situation, and the benefits that accrue to all of us when we study and enforce boundaries, I would work hard to improve your boundaries first, and save no contact for more of a last resort.

[WomanInterrupted]

From  now on,  when she calls and says she needs to go to the hospital or ER, I recommend you tell her to call an *ambulance* - or call one for her, if she refuses. 

She can take a taxi home from the hospital, and if she refuses to call, call one FOR her.   

Those are the two biggest steps you can take to protect yourself - stay OUT of her messes.   

If you are your grandmother's health care proxy, the next time she's admitted, request a competency exam.   That will put your grandmother on a bubble - eyes will be on her, and depending on how she does, she'll be retested from time to time, especially if she's got issues with movement/balance,  or flubs an easy question she shouldn't have missed.

They wanted Ray every 2 months, after I requested the initial one in November.  In January, he flubbed a few questions and they were *flummoxed* that he refused to use a cane or walker, even though he fell constantly, and *laughed about it.* 

Before March's visit, I stupidly broke VVVVVVVVVVVLC to pick up his ADT key fob, and he waved a paper in my face, roaring, "They think I'm crazy!"   

It was the date of his next exam, and at the bottom, in pen, it said to have somebody drive him.

Meanwhile, Ray has moved on to how he can't keep anything IN, #1 and #2  wise, so I just handed him the paper back and said, "I'm busy that day.  You'll have to take a cab.  I can't do it." 

He blew it off, and APS then got involved - but Ray fell and was declared incompetent a week later, and place in a memory care unit.  (He orchestrated the fall, thinking they'd  get ME in there, to care for him - but I noped right out of that shit and stayed here, safe and sound.    )

It *can* happen that quickly, but probably won't.  As long as you order that first competency test, at your grandma's age, they'll keep testing her, to make sure she doesn't fall though any cracks, and is placed in AL or a memory care unit the moment she's deemed  incompetent.

And you, as POA, will have the ability to make it so. 

The only thing  you'll have to worry about is her financial details.  Social workers will be clamoring for her account information and balances (checking, savings, bonds, life insurance policies, the approximate value of any assets she's got, like a home or beach property), so they can figure out who will take her.

Now...here's where it gets interesting.

IF your grandmother has assets (large balances, stock, bonds, owns a home that is worth a bundle) and you'd like to keep some of that as a nest egg, get yourself to an Eldercare Attorney, STAT - and ask him/her top work that voodoo that they do so well:  sheltering her assets.

Your *grandmother* pays for that, to the tune of $16,500 (in 2016) BUT  the lawyer will have a lot of tables and formulas in his or her mighty brain, and you might walk away with a nice chunk 'o change - and better still, the my lawyer's office did the dreaded Medicaid application FOR me! 

If she's got no assets - carry on.  Let the nursing home spend them all down, and get her certified for Medicaid, while you stay OUT of it - unless helping with a Medicaid Scavenger Hunt.  There may be items you can obtain, or have, that they can't - but when it comes to bank statements, going back 5 years and pensions you didn't even know she had, let THEM figure it out.

Same goes if she wants your *father* to inherit - oh, to hell with that.  Let the nursing home drink her milkshake right up, and your father will have to deal with his own crap, when the time comes. 

If your grandmother is admitted to AL (or somebody convinces her she'll LOVE it there, because of all the attention she'll get), she'll be allowed to have a phone - and you can  block the number, because ALL her needs are being seen to, and she won't need you!

Oh, she'll still be as demanding as hell, but you don't have to listen.  Delete, ignore, block.  They are NOT ignoring her, starving her or taking her stuff - and she *does not need* you to order stuff from Amazon for her.     

If she's in a memory care unit - NO phones are allowed.  Ray had a fit about that, demanding a phone, and I just went dark instead.  I've been NC for over 3 years.  He's THEIR problem now! 

The only thing that worked was making myself LESS accessible.  I wouldn't call Ray back - sometimes for weeks or even months, knowing he had Life Alert.

If he was too damned stubborn to use it, that *wasn't my problem.*

Demands for rides to the doctor, hospital or ER were *ignored* - and deleted.  I wouldn't even check to see how he made out. 

Ray had nobody, then he had a team - and he fired them.  That wasn't my problem, if Ray was all alone.

Your grandmother has a *team* - rely on THEM, and less on yourself, if at all possible. 

But from now on, I'd REFUSE to take her anywhere near an ER or hospital, and *save myself!*

PS - don't worry about your grandmother's issues and the possibility of her needing psych placement - I thought the same thing about Ray, but they diagnosed him as psychotic and medicated him instead. 

Problem solved.

They'll go to great lengths to not have to move a patient - even if that means brainstorming a psychiatric diagnosis, to medicate and make her more manageable.

[practical]

NC makes things a hell of a lot easier and more peaceful, assuming you can get her to respect your NC. As for being Health Care Proxy and POA, you can rescind those. By not doing as F wished, meaning jumping through hoops every time he had a fall, some illness (often fictional or blown out of proportion), wanted something else to be done ASAP and I didn't do it at all but told him to handle it or did it in my own time, he actually took both of those away from me because I was no longer a dutiful daughter in his eyes, a bottomless and instant supply of attention. Ultimately he went NC with me and replaced me. Not saying you should wait till that happens, especially as it never might, but you are replaceable - even if that sounds harsh - because it sounds you are a Doing and not a Being to her. Even if she doesn't find a replacement herself, the system will provide her with one, or you can find an arrangement like WI did possibly.

As for the psych evaluation, the key is she is on the doctors' radar, and even if she manages to pass the test this time, there will be a follow up one. My M passed the tests many times because she managed to pull herself together for that half hour and then she didn't, ended up being committed and with a state ordered guardian, because she refused to have one of her children as her guardian or her husband, who had all mistreated her in her mind. I went NC with M after she was committed because she still produced plenty of drama and I couldn't take it anymore, it was making me sick.

NC has its own kind of pain attached to it, at the same time it gives calm back to your life, gives you your life back. The alternative is rock solid, mile high boundaries, and maintaining those costs a lot of emotional energy and leave you in a state of hyper vigilance. I would not have gone NC with F on my own most likely, thinking he is old, I don't want to hurt him, and rather tried to keep things manageable with boundaries, but that was an option in my mind only because he had already replaced me for his everyday drama needs, I was no longer responsible for the latest chaos, and still his attacks, his chaos had a profound and very unhealthy effect for me.

Not sure whether any of this helps you. I only know my life has gotten better since NC. It is sad that this is what it took in my case an might take in yours. You can always see it as Time Out, start with several months and then reevaluate.

[scapegoat/caregiver]

you can get one of the necklaces ADT alarm. 
my NM wears one.  if she falls THEY call her and if she does not answer THEY send an ambulance.
( ADT also call me...but I don't answer the phone)

[GentleSoul]

I love not answering the phone. Thank goodness for caller id.  Whoever invented that did an enormous favour to us folk with PDs in our lives.

[p123]

I love not answering the phone. Thank goodness for caller id.  Whoever invented that did an enormous favour to us folk with PDs in our lives.

My Dad just does

house phone - dont leave message
mobile - dont leave message
Wait 5 mins and repeat.

Hes worked out that if he leaves a message and tells me what the issue is then it gives me the power to choose to leave it until the next day. Of course, if I don't know it might be urgent and if he calls every 5 mins it MUST be urgent so he gets what he wants.

Flying monkey brother did it too (until I blocked him). Dad phoned me about 20 times when I was at glastonbury music festival. (Id told him dont phone me its the middle of a field"). So I had facebook msg "call dad" from brother "whats up", "just call him", "tell me whats up then!" "just call him". then I ignored so he sent the same to my wife. Then we both had "you're both so selfish" from him. Still didnt call him.

Found out a few days later. It was nothing important.

[WomanInterrupted]

P123 - you have your answer.  The MORE he calls, the less important it really is, so *don't call back.* 

Think of it this way:   you're having a serious problem.  Would you waste all your time calling the ONE person who can do nothing because they're not answering the phone, or would you get on the blower and call the person/people/organization best able to take care of the problem, ASAP?

Your father, if he's having a serious problem, *will* come to the same conclusion - probably calling your brother first, and if he can't get hold of him, calling an ambulance and THEN demanding everybody show up at the ER, to pay  court. 

Do none of the above.  Don't call back.  If the hospital calls you,  stay home - you'll only be in the way, anyway.  If he calls about needing a ride home, tell him to take a cab - if he refuses to call, call for one FOR him and have it sent to the location.  It'll be his decision whether to get in or not - but if he sends the cab away, it is NOT up to you to go get him. 

It's *that* easy - it's just reminding yourself it can be that easy is where the problem can be.  We often forget because we're so conditioned to *jump!* when told to.

Resist!  Malfunction!   

[illogical]

I guess that depends on how you define peace.

N is a "spectrum disorder" and it ranges from just a few narcissistic traits to full-blown NPD to Anti-Social (criminal) behavior.  So every case is different.

My personal thoughts are that most on this board are dealing with someone in the middle-- i.e., NPD.  More than just a few N traits, but not criminal behavior-- although sometimes there are posters who encounter that.

My NM got worse with age.  She did not age well.  Like your nana, she became a royal PITA.  And there was mild dementia when I went NC with her. 

Basically, my NM trampled every boundary I set.  I likened it to a battle, every encounter with her.  I would have to don my mail-suit of armour and get ready for battle.  How am I going to handle the Crisis du Jour?  Okay, I'll get through that, but not without a lot of time spent and physical effort.  Better rest up, because the next crisis awaits!!!  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat until I was worn out and exhausted.  In spite of my best efforts to avoid what I like to call "The Train Wreck"  [this is where NM would ignore any and all advice on how to avoid a crisis and do whatever the hell she pleased and called me to pick up the pieces]  The Train Wreck would occur, and I would be called in to do damage control.   

Finally, I got to the point where my mental and physical health were suffering.  I was having frequent panic attacks and depersonalization episodes.  My situation was complicated by a GC brother who lived several states away and had ensconced himself with NM (and her bank accounts) and I was "doomed" to help NM until she died and GC brother could swoop down and help himself to her estate.

Adrianna, I think you are getting tired.  I hear it in your posts.  You need a break from your nana.  Even if you don't go NC, as practical suggested, maybe take a Time-Out, a temporary NC and regroup and rest and tend to yourself.  If your health starts to suffer, you won't be good to anyone, including your nana.  You owe it to yourself to put yourself first. 

I've rambled around a lot here, but the bottom line, the answer to your question is that some on this website are successfully managing a relationship with their PD relative through boundaries.  Doesn't mean it's easy.  Doesn't even mean that they have found "peace".  Maybe they have.  Personally, even after I went NC, I didn't feel good about the situation until my NM passed.  But I was able to reclaim my life, even though I still felt the "pull" of obligation.  NC, for me, came down to ME or NM.  And in the end, I chose ME.

I wish you well on your journey!  I think you are a very caring, kind individual that doesn't deserve the hand you have been dealt.  And I think you need a break. 

[Adrianna]

I want to thank everyone for the replies. I think the past few months have been just beyond bad with her. There was one night in the ER where I literally couldn't even be in the room with her. I had to sit outside in a chair with my head in my hands crying to get away from her. She just wouldn't stop wailing, whining, nasty. Case manager went into room and she told them she has no family. I'm right outside the room. Precious ER visit a few months ago, a nurse called me asking if I was related because nana told them she has no family then too.   A social worker was at the house a couple weeks ago, trying to figure out what else can we possibly do for her, and when she told nana "your granddaughter is working hard to make sure you are cared for" she told her (in front of me), "She doesn't do anything for me." I told her thank you for trying but she's never going to appreciate me. Or anyone. It's not personal.

I'm going to be honest. What we tolerate is harassment and emotional abuse. No one deserves it. I understand they are in misery but they do not have a right to bring us all down with them. I'm talking about people with serious pd issues here. I have much compassion for them but I have as much compassion for those who have to tolerate the abuse.

Her doctor mentioned to her that we need to start thinking about nursing home placement. I have an appointment with a lawyer in a few weeks. I'm working on getting her a psych/cognitive evaluation. Want to be ready for the next Er/hospital/rehab stay so she doesn't return home next time.

If she doesn't have another hospital admission, then I'll pursue placing her without the usual route, just a direct move. In any case, if this continues much longer, I may need to get an advocate for her and step away. I've been through enough and at her age of 97, I think I've had enough abuse. I realized she's been emotionally abusing me since childhood. I'm near 50. My entire childhood was one long guilt trip from her.

Her house is protected (many years ago) but the money isn't and there isn't a whole lot there so I'm not worried about that. We will spend down the money on her care then get her on Medicaid. I'll have the lawyer handle it.

I'm not ready to go no contact yet but I do know I'm much more at peace apart from her than I am around her. As it is I try to see her once or twice a week. Phone calls are short and infrequent. Messages (many whining, guilt tripping, demanding) go unanswered. Yet the work I have done to arrange services for her, the hours of phone conversations, have gone unappreciated. She's been telling people for years I don't do enough for her. She had me groomed to think it was my job to make her happy, soothe every anxiety episode, give up my hobbies, time, friends, happiness to please her. How sick is that? Literally sick. I have to remind myself of that.

I'm seeing things so much more clearly now than ever. I know she's in misery. I see that. But wow what misery she has caused for those who care about her. Maybe the best lesson we all learn is to value ourselves enough to not expose ourselves to this.

[Psuedonym]

Wow illogical,

I always love your posts but didn't realize until now how similar our experiences are...down to the panic attacks that precipitated going NC.

Adrianna, I think it depends on what type of PD you're dealing with. Yours, unfortunately, sounds very much like mine, WIs, and illogicals; the type who reacts like a 4 year old every time they feel bored, lonely, frustrated, upset, angry, etc. Like a 4 year old, they think their unhappiness is your problem to fix, and will take whatever emotion they're feeling out on you whenever they're feeling it. If they aren't happy (which is 98% of the time) they think that you deserve to be unhappy with them.  (I say this in contrast to the ignoring type of PD, who will discard you as soon as you disagree or stop being of use to them). The clinging, parasitic type will drag you down with them, and as illogical said, they get worse and worse. You sound close to the state I was in before I went NC, after I'd handled everything to do with my dad's illness and eventual death, his estate, and moving Negatron 3 or 4 times. No respect for boundaries, her behavior got worse and worse, until there was one final incident at which point I said I'm done. The past 10 months have been infinitely better, and I have found a great deal more peace.

One thing I've learned is that I'm not as strong as I thought I was. Here's what I mean by that: I really loathed Negatron and have since I can remember. I thought I could suck it up and pretend everything was fine, suppress what I really felt, and deal with her endless bullshit. What I discovered is that I'm not superhuman. When you try to suppress one emotion, you suppress all of them, and you end up depressed. When you live in a situation where you feel absolutely trapped or that in you're stuck in a nightmare you can't wake up from, that anxiety will eventually overtake you. One of the biggest things I've learned is how hard it is, as a person raised by a PD, to accept the idea that feelings are never wrong and that my feelings are valid and important. Which is I guess a long winded way of saying that, yes, in order to actually honor my own feelings and find some peace, I absolutely had to go NC.

[Psuedonym]

Adrianna,

I posted right after you did and before I read your last response. I see that we've said many of the same things and I want you to know that I get it. You need to take care of yourself. You've given and given, and you can only give so much. Your feelings are important and your happiness is important. More important than your gm's. She's had 97 years of inflicting misery. You need to take care of yourself now. All the hugs. 

[p123]

P123 - you have your answer.  The MORE he calls, the less important it really is, so *don't call back.* 

Think of it this way:   you're having a serious problem.  Would you waste all your time calling the ONE person who can do nothing because they're not answering the phone, or would you get on the blower and call the person/people/organization best able to take care of the problem, ASAP?

Your father, if he's having a serious problem, *will* come to the same conclusion - probably calling your brother first, and if he can't get hold of him, calling an ambulance and THEN demanding everybody show up at the ER, to pay  court. 

Do none of the above.  Don't call back.  If the hospital calls you,  stay home - you'll only be in the way, anyway.  If he calls about needing a ride home, tell him to take a cab - if he refuses to call, call for one FOR him and have it sent to the location.  It'll be his decision whether to get in or not - but if he sends the cab away, it is NOT up to you to go get him. 

It's *that* easy - it's just reminding yourself it can be that easy is where the problem can be.  We often forget because we're so conditioned to *jump!* when told to.

Resist!  Malfunction!   

The phone thing is CRAZY. Hes got some commitment though to be fair, to ring constantly for HOURS and HOURS.

Right what you say though - medical emergency, call an ambulance, I aint a doctor.

I remember once he had his gas heating serviced (yes I know in the usa you dont call it gas!). They detected a leak. (Apparently, everyone is likely to have some leak, theres a tolerance where if it goes above they have to fix it. Its still MILES away from ever getting ino explosion territory).

So Dad called me in a panic. HE HAD A LEAK. I'd have to come. I was in work. Anyway, dragged the info out of him that guy was going to get some part and be back later. (Im pretty sure guy had explained that it wasn't a massive problem but Dad just did not listen). I didn't go.

5pm. Hes calling again. YOU'LL HAVE TO VISIT!!!!!! Turns out the guy had taken longer and was there sorting the issue out as he was speaking to me. BUT WHAT IF HE DOESNT DO IT PROPERLY? WHAT IF ITS STILL LEAKING? YOU HAVE TO COME HERE TO HELP.

I didn't go. I explained I'm not a gas engineer. I know nothing about it. If the guy was there we could be fairly certain the issue was being fixed.There was nothing I could add to the situation at all. I remember Dad saying a few days later how "I'd let him down when he needed help".

Hope he never needs heart surgery. He'll want me to help out there too!

[Adrianna]

P123 it's intersting that your father expects you to fix stuff like that. In her case, she calls authorities for attention. It's the ultimate narc supply when she gets someone in authority to do something for her.

Calls oil company to fix her thermostat when it's not broken. She has I think 5 thermostats in her drawer. He just keeps replacing them to calm her nerves.  The owner of oil company told me once "don't worry, when your grandmother tells me you don't do enough, I remind her that you work full time." I didn't even know this guy! He knew my husband, parents, etc so knew I had a job. I was like, thanks? For defending me to her? Awkward conversation but a real eye opener as to how she was telling everyone I'm not living up to her expectations.

Called the Fire department because she thought stove was broken.

Called the police a few weeks ago telling them her garage door wasn't working and she thought I tampered with it. That was a fun call.

Called town hall and probably police to complain her neighbor's boat was too close to her property. I think she had the surveyor come out. She wanted to start a petition with neighbors on street to force them to remove the boat! Of course then claimed she's not trying to stir up trouble. Sweet lady wouldn't do that. Right.

Called police for a "heat emergency". Was winter, cold, they went down . All she wanted is for them to check her oil level. Something I or anyone else could have done. But she got a nice visit from a policeman so she could whine about how awful it is to be old and no one cares.  I told her that's not what they are there for. She said yes they are. Thinks they are her personal servants.

A couple years ago the oil company office lady called me saying "your grandmother keeps calling here whining that no one does anything for her and she's lonely. Should I be concerned?" I said no. This is her usual routine. Sorry she's bothering you.

There's probably more that I can't remember.  I know some of this is anxiety based but it's also attention seeking.

[p123]

Wow illogical,

I always love your posts but didn't realize until now how similar our experiences are...down to the panic attacks that precipitated going NC.

Adrianna, I think it depends on what type of PD you're dealing with. Yours, unfortunately, sounds very much like mine, WIs, and illogicals; the type who reacts like a 4 year old every time they feel bored, lonely, frustrated, upset, angry, etc. Like a 4 year old, they think their unhappiness is your problem to fix, and will take whatever emotion they're feeling out on you whenever they're feeling it. If they aren't happy (which is 98% of the time) they think that you deserve to be unhappy with them.  (I say this in contrast to the ignoring type of PD, who will discard you as soon as you disagree or stop being of use to them). The clinging, parasitic type will drag you down with them, and as illogical said, they get worse and worse. You sound close to the state I was in before I went NC, after I'd handled everything to do with my dad's illness and eventual death, his estate, and moving Negatron 3 or 4 times. No respect for boundaries, her behavior got worse and worse, until there was one final incident at which point I said I'm done. The past 10 months have been infinitely better, and I have found a great deal more peace.

One thing I've learned is that I'm not as strong as I thought I was. Here's what I mean by that: I really loathed Negatron and have since I can remember. I thought I could suck it up and pretend everything was fine, suppress what I really felt, and deal with her endless bullshit. What I discovered is that I'm not superhuman. When you try to suppress one emotion, you suppress all of them, and you end up depressed. When you live in a situation where you feel absolutely trapped or that in you're stuck in a nightmare you can't wake up from, that anxiety will eventually overtake you. One of the biggest things I've learned is how hard it is, as a person raised by a PD, to accept the idea that feelings are never wrong and that my feelings are valid and important. Which is I guess a long winded way of saying that, yes, in order to actually honor my own feelings and find some peace, I absolutely had to go NC.

Psue, You're dead right here. My Dad "can" be OK but its getting less and less. If hes ill (i.e. a cold) or bored or anything then thats it. All bets are off, my life is on hold and I have to sort it out.

[lkdrymom]

I want to thank everyone for the replies. I think the past few months have been just beyond bad with her. There was one night in the ER where I literally couldn't even be in the room with her. I had to sit outside in a chair with my head in my hands crying to get away from her. She just wouldn't stop wailing, whining, nasty. Case manager went into room and she told them she has no family. I'm right outside the room. Precious ER visit a few months ago, a nurse called me asking if I was related because nana told them she has no family then too.   A social worker was at the house a couple weeks ago, trying to figure out what else can we possibly do for her, and when she told nana "your granddaughter is working hard to make sure you are cared for" she told her (in front of me), "She doesn't do anything for me." I told her thank you for trying but she's never going to appreciate me. Or anyone. It's not personal.

You should have taken her at her word right then and there and left.  My ex told my daughter that he told people he didn't have children. I assume it was to get her and her brother to pay more attention to him. Backfired.  They took him at his word and have not spoken to him since. They don't miss him.

[p123]

P123 it's intersting that your father expects you to fix stuff like that. In her case, she calls authorities for attention. It's the ultimate narc supply when she gets someone in authority to do something for her.

Calls oil company to fix her thermostat when it's not broken. She has I think 5 thermostats in her drawer. He just keeps replacing them to calm her nerves.  The owner of oil company told me once "don't worry, when your grandmother tells me you don't do enough, I remind her that you work full time." I didn't even know this guy! He knew my husband, parents, etc so knew I had a job. I was like, thanks? For defending me to her? Awkward conversation but a real eye opener as to how she was telling everyone I'm not living up to her expectations.

Called the Fire department because she thought stove was broken.

Called the police a few weeks ago telling them her garage door wasn't working and she thought I tampered with it. That was a fun call.

Called town hall and probably police to complain her neighbor's boat was too close to her property. I think she had the surveyor come out. She wanted to start a petition with neighbors on street to force them to remove the boat! Of course then claimed she's not trying to stir up trouble. Sweet lady wouldn't do that. Right.

Called police for a "heat emergency". Was winter, cold, they went down . All she wanted is for them to check her oil level. Something I or anyone else could have done. But she got a nice visit from a policeman so she could whine about how awful it is to be old and no one cares.  I told her that's not what they are there for. She said yes they are. Thinks they are her personal servants.

A couple years ago the oil company office lady called me saying "your grandmother keeps calling here whining that no one does anything for her and she's lonely. Should I be concerned?" I said no. This is her usual routine. Sorry she's bothering you.

There's probably more that I can't remember.  I know some of this is anxiety based but it's also attention seeking.

Sounds like my Dad. He thinks everyone is there for his benefit....

Emergency calls to get ambulance. Now they don'r rush out.
GP now refuses to visit him because he calls them out so often.

Oh and the District Nurse thing (is it called visitng nurse in usa?). He takes warfarin so needs his bloods checked.
He cottoned on to the idea that he could get the nurse to visit rather than him walk to the GP surgery (its about 1/2 a mile, he can walk easily, and has a mobility scooter). So he does.

My own wife is a district nurse and I've tried to tell him its only for people who are housebound not for people, like him, who can't be bothered. I've suggested he get a taxi (and I'll pay!) but his attitude is "why should I? they dont mind coming". Umm they do Dad but they can't say that to your face. Same with the GP - I said look a home visit takes about 5 times the time of a surgery appt so thats other people waiting because you've tied the doctor up. Same attitude "why should I? I paid my taxes all my life".

The other day the District Nurse turned up late. (yes he really tells them they've got to be there by 10am) So hes phoning the office and complaining. Then he has the cheek to complain that hes not happy because he was going out later - omg you're not housebound then are you?

Like I said I know how busy DNs are. Anyone in the UK knows the score with the NHS. It just makes me so mad the way he abuses people like this.
I just wish sometimes the DNs and GP would pu their foot down and say "no more home visits - you are NOT housebound".