Biblical Marriage Obligations

thedoghousedweller · June 27, 2021, 06:33:58 PM

Hello, just to be clear, I hold my vows as sacred. I will not leave the marriage and will not seek other women. However, I'm exploring the reality of a partial separation, either bound by distance (in the same house or complex) or by time. If I work "on the ranch" so to speak for a couple of weeks each month, that may qualify. I just can't stand the daily rejection by her. How she flatlines when I raise a topic and walks away. How she moves to another room when I enter a room. The complete rejection of intimacy (we're going on three years now - she makes sure I'm asleep when she is in bed). Her condemnation of my family. The isolation from her family and the request for me to not contact her family (which I have honored).

She is an uSPDw. While somewhat veiled in our early years, the symptoms have all surfaced in recent years as she had a severe health issue, and my business failed. She only trusts a couple of people. She dropped almost all of her close friends, and lost touch with all her cousins. Her "counselor" told her 3.5 years ago that she needed to take some time to heal herself. She works on that full time. No time for a job to help financially. Rather, she reads the Bible, watches sermons, and watches TV shows all day. I don't have any issue with Bible studying, but half of our bathroom mirror (8 feet x 4 feet) is covered with stickies of her learnings and collected quotes. There are over 60 attached to the mirror. If you've seen A Beautiful Mind, it reminds me of a scene like that in the movie. I have recommended therapy several times, but she believes nobody will understand her unique situation. Instead, she isolates further. She will never work professionally again in spite of two degrees.

I'm an active guy. I love connecting with people, and I love building friendships. I have to do it for business, but also for fellowship. I've learned to go it alone when any of my organizations puts on a social event, or just decline. My Sunday school class - almost all couples - has learned to stop asking - "where's your wife?" By her frowns and avoidance, they know not to try to engage her anymore.

So is it right for me to seek a means of partial separation? Again, I don't want to divorce. I'm not seeking another relationship. I just want peace, and I know that whenever I'm in her presence, I just sense tension and rejection. Being alone in a context of marriage would be better than this. Would I be honoring God? Or even better, how do I honor God while maintaining my sanity?

JustKeepTrying · June 27, 2021, 10:47:00 PM

First thedoghousedweller, I will say a rosary for you.

Second, I can only speak to my situation and hope that offers some insight and/or healing. I left my OCPDxh after 32 years. I was born into a devout Catholic family and attended catholic school for twelve years. I practiced faithfully until a few years ago and still in my heart have a profound faith but not necessarily a Catholic one anymore. My father was a deacon and I swear I spent more time at church than I did at my house growing up. That's background.

My local priest (and two others I spoke with over the years), gave me this counsel. I could within the eyes of the church still divorce and even receive communion because I was severing the legal ties, not the religious vow. If I remarried, then I would be out of sync with communion. He said that there are legitimate situations of safety and sanity that require a separation or divorce. And he saw that in mine. He also said that if I wished for annulment there could be - a real stretch - grounds based on that my ex is not in his right mind.

I am not going to remarry. Or even date. I entered into the marriage as an adult and knew the risks. While my ex hid his true nature and yes, I have cPTSD from family trauma as a child and beyond, I have no desire to enter into marriage or even date. But not because of a vow, because I am spent and used up. It will take a long time for me to soften against someone again. Am I perfect in practicing Catholicism? No. But that is not the same as faith IMO.

That being said, there is another perspective. God gave you a body and mind. It is right to treat it with respect and reverence as a gift from God. If separating is necessary to do that, then you are respecting your gift from God.

Also, consider the book Boundaries. You appreciate the BIble so this biblically-based book may help you in setting good boundaries as well as shift your perspective a bit. It did for me.

SonofThunder · June 28, 2021, 07:23:31 AM

DogHouse, I'm sorry you are experiencing this situation. I'm not going to dive into a extremely long reply, because I just had this similar conversation in the Religious and Spiritual Discussion forum.

So, to get to the chase; you wrote " I hold my vows as sacred." and then later " I just want peace, and I know that whenever I'm in her presence, I just sense tension and rejection. Being alone in a context of marriage would be better than this. Would I be honoring God? Or even better, how do I honor God while maintaining my sanity?"

I ask you to define what marriage actually is. If only one of you is "holding your vows...", do you actually have a 'marriage' in Gods eyes? Sure you may have a legal marriage on paper, but vows (whether in marriage or one-on-one with God in another area of life) is a two way street. God's always going to do what is right, proper and good, but if the other is not 'married' to the vow, then God, in love, will allow us to wallow in the mud of the vow that man put together, vs "what God put together" (Matthew 19:3-9) (although that verse is about the vow bonds of marriage)

Believe me, when God puts a marriage together, it works. When man puts one together, it rarely does. So when Jesus replied to the Pharisees with "therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate", he meant it! But then also, the opposite must be true as well. Those truth-then-opposing-truth type structures can be found in Proverbs frequently. Why didn't Jesus just say "don't get divorced"? He added that line of "...what God has joined...." He chooses his words exactly.

The opposing truth would be something like; what God did not put together is destined to fail. Therefore I ask again "do you truly have a God-put-together marriage"? In my case, I entered into a legally binding marriage while shacking up with my now wife of 30 years, and I put in blinders to PD behaviors while dating, because the sex was good. Is that Gods method of finding a spouse. No.

Think about your own history and possibly consider my points. Again, sorry you are experiencing this. Also, if you know anyone else, that in divorce, ended up in a Godly blessing of a marriage the second time around, then how many examples of that does it take to know that when God arranges one, it works, and man in his lustful sinful ways better not get in the middle of a God-put-together marriage.

SoT

tragedy or hope · June 28, 2021, 07:32:35 AM

My understanding is that separation is not divorce, but can be used to repair the relationship. IE.. abuse etc... most Christians will not take the bad behavior of a spouse to the church. For me I did not because it seemed the most humiliating and many pastors don't know what they are doing regarding these issues, especially around personality disorders.

Find a good source. you trust in the realm of your faith and maybe make sure there will be no connection to you locally. Talk to someone of faith who understands this odd behavior. It is sin as I do not believe mental illness (unless organic) is anything but willfulness. IMO, they get so self deceived it seems there is something truly wrong in the brain. Again my IMO based on biblical principles.

This idea is hard with a PD because of their reactions and behaviors to control what we do. I see wisdom in your questioning whether this is right.

I understand the intention of separation is to work on oneself, and the relationship, not to see if there is someone else out there who is a better fit. The commitment is still there but the constant problem is relieved for a time.

Also... it should be a time to get right with God for both parties. This requires sincerity which a PD may not be able to attain.

I respect the depth of your questioning and commitment. I do not believe the feeling of love is at times like this the issue... commitment to what is right is.

Mary · July 01, 2021, 12:51:12 AM

I'm so sorry you have been experiencing this for so long!

I just read an interesting post in the "being surveilled" thread started by Tragedy or Hope in the Religious & Spiritual Discussion.

Someone said that after dinner, they say goodnight, and spend the rest of the evening themselves. Maybe you could set yourself up a "corner of a housetop".

My final thought--isn't rejection of intimacy for a year considered abandonment?

I respect your commitment, and will pray for a healthier arrangement for you.

Sincerely,
Mary

thedoghousedweller · July 01, 2021, 04:39:20 PM

Thank you to JustKeepTrying, SonofThunder, tragedy or hope, and Mary.

tragedy or hope, I will talk to a pastor about this. I think I know what the message will be - stay put and endure. This is a trial. I don't think he would object to spending some time away, just as long as I have a means of keeping temptation at bay.

SonOfThunder, I appreciate the feedback. I really feel that this was originally a God-ordained marriage. When we married, my wife seemed dedicated to the marriage from the beginning. We went through the church's pre-marital counseling process. I see the fruit - our children - and believe that God had a purpose in this. It just all deteriorated a few years ago. She claims that God revealed her true identity to her, and I've seen her isolate further and further. In reading through some of the resources again, I would say that she has been offering me the "gray rock" treatment. She definitely sees herself as a victim.

Justkeeptrying, I will read the book Boundaries and will find time alone.

Mary - I don't have a good answer about abandonment. She considers sex a do not cross boundary for her protection. You would think I'm the one with the PD.

God bless all of you. Psalm 23 never indicated how long the walk through the valley of the shadow of death is, but it did say we have a Comforter walking alongside.

SonofThunder · July 02, 2021, 06:07:44 AM

thedoghousedweller,

You wrote " I really feel that this was originally a God-ordained marriage. When we married, my wife seemed dedicated to the marriage from the beginning. We went through the church's pre-marital counseling process. I see the fruit - our children - and believe that God had a purpose in this. It just all deteriorated a few years ago. She claims that God revealed her true identity to her, and I've seen her isolate further and further. In reading through some of the resources again, I would say that she has been offering me the "gray rock" treatment. She definitely sees herself as a victim."

I understand your reply. I will add though, that you may desire to dig deeper into the PD cycle of 'idealize (lovebombing), devaluation and then discard'. What you describe as gray-rock, may be the discard phase you are experiencing. Possibly look back at your life and see if you recognize that your wife has gone through the cycle, and possibly many times over; not needing to utilize the discard phase until recently, because of your awareness and apprehension to repeat.

The objective of the idealization is to 'hoover' (vacuum) you in, either initially when you were dating and also afterward, once she had you committed, had kids (yes God can use an man-put-together marriage to bring good from it = children) and then the PD boredom (routine life of child rearing, needs higher life-goalposts to keep feeling good about themselves, needs drama for supply) kicks in once again and devaluation of you begins in order to supply drama for her and get you in a higher gear to meet her higher-goalpost needs.

But when you begin to be overwhelmed, tired and are surprised at her devaluation, you begin to 'caretake' her (read Fjelstads 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist) by DOING whatever it takes to make her happy again. She enjoys your extra attention, and then when she believes she has you in that higher gear to please her increased needs, she idealize/lovebombs you once again as a prize for you meeting the new goalpost placement and the cycle starts over again.

That cycle repeats itself potentially over and over again (not certain how long you've been married; me= 30 years) until you (privately) come 'Out of the FOG' that something is repetitively wrong (all why you are enjoying the blessing and busyness of your children) and the devaluation stage is not producing the results that it did previously. Therefore, it's time for her to take it all the way to 'discard', using silence, eyes don't meet, being secretive with phone (yet accusing you of these same things), no sex as punishment, possible medical excuses for no-sex and/or bad moods.

Again all of this is a cycle that PD's (male and female) do in order to get supply and to have the target react to meet the supply need and get hovered back again to repeat the cycle. Possibly look back even further, before you. Did your wife possibly have many failed dating attempts in high school and college with other men, or did she date one guy long term, but they broke up over and over? Also, we're you possibly a rebound guy for her at the time?

What I've been describing is my own life, all imo in a 'man-put-together' marriage. Surely, my children are a blessing and sure God-fruit of my marriage, but imo, got a "what God put together....." union.

Many people here have similar experiences to what I just described and I suggest you dig deep to see if it's similar with you as well. Imo, education is key to understanding, so we non's can make the healthiest choices for ourselves and those people and assets we have responsibility to provide care and protection.

SoT

thedoghousedweller · July 02, 2021, 09:48:20 AM

SonofThunder, clearly we have a lot in common with our experiences. Once again, thank you again for your wisdom. Yes, we've been married over 20 years. I will think through this cycle. I definitely sense the original hoover - it certainly seemed she was a different person entirely. Apparently, there was a lot that was veiled. At the time, she was willing to do anything, including moving out of state after we married so that I could pursue an advanced degree. There were some early signs, though, that something wasn't right: the withdrawals without any explanation, the refusal to build relationships with any of my friends or family, and her erratic relationships with her family. Several years ago, we became members of a new church after an extensive period of consideration. Now, she said that she doesn't feel like she can connect with anyone so wants to change. No surprise there.

Something I'm sensing recently is a thinly-veiled level of jealousy. I've been recognized in the community in several roles for my contribution and leadership. (It hasn't gone to my head - I have several thorns that I'm carrying to keep me humble). I was honored with an award recently. DS openly congratulated me for it, but she ignored it entirely.
The award and the other recognitions have been the result a series of successes that are the result of experience. She has deemed those things as "self seeking," claiming that I'm craving recognition rather than devoting myself to her. It makes no sense: she doesn't want me to be anywhere near her. I see it as a ploy to guilt me into withdrawing from those activities to level ourselves. It's very odd. I'm serving God and others with a small part of my non-work time, but even that's too much for her.

I have just ordered the book and will put that on the summer reading list at the top. Thanks again, and may God bless you and everyone else on this journey.

DHD

SonofThunder · July 03, 2021, 07:12:34 AM

Quote from: thedoghousedweller on July 02, 2021, 09:48:20 AM
SonofThunder, clearly we have a lot in common with our experiences. Once again, thank you again for your wisdom. Yes, we've been married over 20 years. I will think through this cycle. I definitely sense the original hoover - it certainly seemed she was a different person entirely. Apparently, there was a lot that was veiled. At the time, she was willing to do anything, including moving out of state after we married so that I could pursue an advanced degree. There were some early signs, though, that something wasn't right: the withdrawals without any explanation, the refusal to build relationships with any of my friends or family, and her erratic relationships with her family. Several years ago, we became members of a new church after an extensive period of consideration. Now, she said that she doesn't feel like she can connect with anyone so wants to change. No surprise there.

Something I'm sensing recently is a thinly-veiled level of jealousy. I've been recognized in the community in several roles for my contribution and leadership. (It hasn't gone to my head - I have several thorns that I'm carrying to keep me humble). I was honored with an award recently. DS openly congratulated me for it, but she ignored it entirely.
The award and the other recognitions have been the result a series of successes that are the result of experience. She has deemed those things as "self seeking," claiming that I'm craving recognition rather than devoting myself to her. It makes no sense: she doesn't want me to be anywhere near her. I see it as a ploy to guilt me into withdrawing from those activities to level ourselves. It's very odd. I'm serving God and others with a small part of my non-work time, but even that's too much for her.

I have just ordered the book and will put that on the summer reading list at the top. Thanks again, and may God bless you and everyone else on this journey.

DHD

thedoghousedweller,

First, congratulations on being recognized and for achieving the experiences that have allowed the success of these ventures. Good to hear you are keeping a balanced head about the accolades.

You wrote: "There were some early signs, though, that something wasn't right: the withdrawals without any explanation, the refusal to build relationships with any of my friends or family, and her erratic relationships with her family. Several years ago, we became members of a new church after an extensive period of consideration. Now, she said that she doesn't feel like she can connect with anyone so wants to change. No surprise there."

I'm just reiterating something you already know and experience, but want to suggest, since you are getting more educated on PD traits and looking back at your experiences, that you may get to know yourself much better, and possibly have your eyes opened a bit further regarding, after reading the book by Fjelstad.

I also want to suggest that you look at the experiences with your wife, in a big picture approach, using your continued education. In doing this, you may be able to move past 'your experiences'' and go even further, understanding that you and others in the innermost relationship circles are a tool for the PD to achieve needs to not come unglued in the face of society, allowing them to, as best possible, control their environment and fly under the radar with others in the outer relationship circles. Moving past your experiences in your understanding may also allow you to shed some of past hurt and also avoid future repeating as you hone your skills with the Out of the FOG tools of proper boundaries, noJADE, medium chill, 51% rule and 50% rule for balance.

Out of the above copied paragraph you wrote " ...the refusal to build relationships with any of my friends or family" and ".. she said that she doesn't feel like she can connect with anyone so wants to change." This is very common with PD's and with many of the Out of the FOG members here, including myself. Attempted social isolation of you (innermost circle 1 is just you, next circle out 2 is your children, followed by 3: siblings and her parents, followed by in-laws, your sibs, friends, coworkers and so on), is a necessary control tactic in order to assist the PD in effective control and manipulation of inner circles 1 and 2, to fly under the PD radar and to keep themselves focused on themselves, in order to keep their inner self-loathing as buried/hidden as possible.

Therefore you are just a tool to use to make this happen, and when life's situational control starts to waiver, it's time for the PD to start over (new church, new house, new part of town, new location all together, new job, new friends etc...). In order to shield the PD during the end of the current and start of the new, other people/other things will become the catalyst-blame for the switch, even if the PD has to fabricate the situation by manipulation of situations or other people in the 'unexpecting' outer circles who experience the PD is altogether different relationships than you (circle 1) and the kids (circle 2).

PD's may also even use themselves as the catalyst for the new situation, new isolation/renewed control, but in a way that no one can expose, such as Munchausen's syndrome where the PD fabricates repetitive mental/physical conditions in order to bring about focused attention, manipulation and control of others and situations, but which doctors cannot diagnose. Anxiety related symptoms, headaches, reported medical emergencies that disrupt life but go away once medical diagnostic equipment is used.

I want to again encourage you look at yourself as a tool in the hands of a skilled manipulator/controller in the innermost circle of privacy (where the most emotional, physical, financial, situational manipulation can occur under the radar) and therefore protect yourself and your kids, causing quiet, covert disruption of the methods of the IDD cycle used by the PD. It will protect yourself and the kids, but may make everyday life with the PD much more difficult as the past methods used in the IDD cycle become increasingly ineffective for the PD. But...you will stop sacrificing yourself emotionally, physically, financially and situationally, and protect yourself from being used (as best possible) a tool.

It's really not about us, because the PD is focused on themselves and when I became able to understand, recognize and accept this and focus on self protection and self peace, while also continually caring for my PDw in a 51% rule way with 50% rule in better balance, life's proper goals for myself and my kids, became clearer, and the experiences and hurt, expected results from a PD.

SoT

1footouttadefog · July 03, 2021, 07:29:17 AM

The marriage vows are being broken by your wife.

She is supposed to break from her family and become one flesh with you.

You should still live your best life regardless of her condition. Setting up a separate living space in the home was one of the best things I ever did.

Having a place to read, watch a program and unwind each morning and evening was a life safer for me. Additionally I was being sleep deprived by noisie night time activities, loud yawning, pillows and covers being hogged etc.

In most Christian circles, the husband is concidered the spiritual leader. Perhaps you should have a Bible study with your wife about marriage and sexual relations, and being a help mate and such.

I wish I would have left my marriage before we had children. Now that the kids are here I am greatful for them and motherhood has been fantastic. However I have been a single mom with three kids one of which will never grow up.

Looking back It was my own pharaseeism that kept me married as my spouse had checked out years earlier.

SonofThunder · July 03, 2021, 07:38:36 AM

Hello 1Foot,

My prediction is that what you wrote: "....Perhaps you should have a Bible study with your wife about marriage and sexual relations, and being a help mate and such." would backfire in such a huge way for doghousedweller, and in fact, I consider this JADEing, as that imo, is laying out the blueprints for tremendous and increased focused manipulation and control by his PDw to prove to him just the opposite of what you wrote.

I write this with plenty of past experience there, before I was aware of these disorders, prior Out of the FOG. After that experience, I study alone and am my own help-mate, and enjoy it in peace.

SoT

1footouttadefog · July 03, 2021, 07:44:53 AM

I agree SOT,

However it would be eye opening to see your spouse who uses Bible study and prayer as an excuse to avoid co tribute g to the relationship, manipulate and gaslight about scriptural truths.

Additionally it's good to know you are fulfilling your own biblical obligations in a marriage regardless of gender. Knowing so, brings peace that you did your part to make things better.

You can bring a horse to water but can not make it drink. If the horse decides to thirst, you can be at peace knowing you did your part.

thedoghousedweller · July 03, 2021, 08:36:47 AM

SoT and 1foot, I understand you both and appreciate the responses. It is enlightening to see patterns of behavior through others.

Knowing that I am not the only one who has gone through this is comforting.

In terms of the Bible study, she would never participate. If I initiate anything, then in her mind, she believes it's misguided and my attempt to manipulate so that she will"protect" herself by withdrawing.

I am a repelling force in her life. She believes that anything that I do is inherently wrong. She believes that she is the victim of my decisions. So as SoT suggests, she tries to get me in pleasing mode, but nothing I could do would ever be enough. Treadmill. So 51/49 it is. I participate with others in civil pursuits but will never again expect validation or affirmation at home.

Best to you all. God is good.

1footouttadefog · July 03, 2021, 08:53:50 AM

She is to be of one flesh.
You are the spiritual leader of the home.
She should submit if you are seeking Biblical council with her.
She should cling to you not family.
She should not withhold intamacy u less mutually agreed during prayer and fasting.

Etc etc etc etc.

If she denies the above she is a non believer regardless of how much she reads her Bible.

You can let her leave in peace. If she does not leave fine, but you can decide how much to spend on what and add some spurs to the nest. By this I mean make sure your needs are being met even if this cost money she thinks should go to her activities.

Be fair to yourself in all aspects, get, intellectual, spiritual, social, artistic, dietary and physical fitness needs met.

Mary · July 04, 2021, 12:36:29 AM

Quote from: SonofThunder on July 03, 2021, 07:12:34 AM

Out of the above copied paragraph you wrote " ...the refusal to build relationships with any of my friends or family" and ".. she said that she doesn't feel like she can connect with anyone so wants to change." This is very common with PD's and with many of the Out of the FOG members here, including myself. Attempted social isolation of you (innermost circle 1 is just you, next circle out 2 is your children, followed by 3: siblings and her parents, followed by in-laws, your sibs, friends, coworkers and so on), is a necessary control tactic in order to assist the PD in effective control and manipulation of inner circles 1 and 2, to fly under the PD radar and to keep themselves focused on themselves, in order to keep their inner self-loathing as buried/hidden as possible.

Therefore you are just a tool to use to make this happen, and when life's situational control starts to waiver, it's time for the PD to start over (new church, new house, new part of town, new location all together, new job, new friends etc...). In order to shield the PD during the end of the current and start of the new, other people/other things will become the catalyst-blame for the switch, even if the PD has to fabricate the situation by manipulation of situations or other people in the 'unexpecting' outer circles who experience the PD is altogether different relationships than you (circle 1) and the kids (circle 2).

I have been through the church mill repeatedly and have settled on attending church as a family, wherever the PD winds take us, but I make sure the kids and I get regular fellowship with Christian friends at other times. I try to plan these get-togethers when my uNPDh is at work so he cannot sabatoge the friendships. The less he knows them the better. Church-related functions that are gender specific, like men's/women's nights or Bible studies are also safe choices.

Ditto on the job recognition. Congratulations from us here at Out of the FOG!

SoT's description of other people/things becoming the catalyst-blame for switches leading to social isolation just really hits the nail on the head. This is so so true. I'm currently in the change of house phase, and even though I think it's a financially good idea, it's hard to not feel like I'm being run like a train through the process.

Keep learning, living it out, and praying it through. I believe that you will find better days ahead.

Mary

tragedy or hope · July 05, 2021, 08:21:48 AM

The finding friends he does not know hit a cord with me. I guess I could be described as the one who does not want to know friends or family but for different reasons. He is incapable of differentiating himself from his family and friends have been screened to be flying monkies only.
There are 4 men in our neighborhood who will hardly talk to him or go to HIS bible study. He is overbearing, manipulates praise and uses God to get social interaction. He is alway thinking of new ways to get some of the guys to do other things with him... no takers.
.
I don't want to know his friends. I am like the neighbors... I see what I see. Unpdh can't understand why these people will not follow him.. he is baffled.

IMO God created marriage for life. Doesn't matter if it was before or after the act of faith. I don't like lumping behaviors all in one category and IMO PD is sin of insolent pride.

My understanding of scripture is that God ordained marriage for life because it is the only example of Christ and the Church and his commitment to it. What goes on behind closed doors is anybody's guess as I believe there are no genuinely perfect marriages.

I like the suggestion of finding ways to live as quiet and peaceful as possible without giving self away to someone who has demonstrated they do not deserve the intimacy of someone they intend to crush.

As I get older, in fact; I am stronger, wiser, closer to the Lord, able to be who I want to be... and also have some good times with someone whose soul seems to be fractured.

Divorce as I have read scripture is painfully allowable for unfaithfulness and then still, if one can forgive, it is better to work it out.

Bad behaviors cannot be changed without a lot of work and with insolent pride, maybe not in this lifetime, but as people age, their memories, crushed hopes and dreams and unresolved conflicts rear their ugly heads.

No different to me than a physical ailment that makes one impossible to live with. I am not better.... I am more aware. As long as I have an outlet with someone who CAN understand me, and a few people who care, I will sit tight until God himself intervenes. I don't want to punish anyone. Not myself or my family.

to all who are living by faith not works, on either side of the fence.

SonofThunder · July 06, 2021, 06:17:37 AM

Tragedy, you wrote:

" IMO God created marriage for life. Doesn't matter if it was before or after the act of faith. I don't like lumping behaviors all in one category and IMO PD is sin of insolent pride. My understanding of scripture is that God ordained marriage for life because it is the only example of Christ and the Church and his commitment to it. What goes on behind closed doors is anybody's guess as I believe there are no genuinely perfect marriages. "

I agree with what you wrote. But I believe that God provides a blueprint for finding a spouse and when marriage builders do not follow the architects design, the house may not stand. In contrast, when the marriage builders do follow Gods design, the marriage will more than likely stand, unless one or both in the God-designed union deviates from truth and tears the union apart. (What Christ warns about in Matthew 19).

I am no advocate for divorce and im 30 years still married at this time. I personally had to realize that I did not follow the blueprints, not only in my own life at the time, but in choosing a mate for myself. We found each other through the sin of lust and sexual pleasures outside of marriage. That is not Gods way. Can God change people in a house he did not design, surely. But I do believe that Christ's addition of "...what God put together" has significant meaning to the teachings on divorce.

Do you believe that God's teaching on divorce applies retroactively to all Biblical peoples and marriages? How about Potiphar? Seems his wife is one who is untrustworthy and manipulative. God uses both Potiphar the Egyptian officer and his seductive wife's decisions, ultimate for the good of Gods chosen people, through the lineage of Joseph. But does Potipher have a "marriage for life"? We do not read that either them are followers of God, but that financial blessings get lumped on their household because of God's plan of promoting Joseph up the chain of command. I believe Potiphar knew his wife was untrustworthy, but out of social pressures of the culture and the class system of that land and his leadership position in the military, Potiphar jailed Joseph instead. Sure, God is able to weave good from the messed up sins of humanity, but I do not believe Potiphar had a 'marriage' as the architect designed. I believe he had options.

For me, once I was able to get religious practices out of the way of my thoughts on marriage, it allowed me to focus on whether I am able to live with my uPDw and the answer is yes, I now, through the tools found here at Out of the FOG and some great council from books, have ceased being a 'caretaker' and am able to live in the same home as my legal marital spouse. I have a legal marriage on paper, but I do not believe I have one that God designed.

Therefore, I give opinions on the difficult question of "do I actually have a marriage" as the architect designed the term? Yes, Christ and the 'church' is the ultimate example of marriage, but there are plenty of folks sitting in the worship service who are not really in the 'church'. The Pharisees are a good example and imo there are plenty of folks who practice their religion inside the walls of the house of worship, but if the rapture happened today, they will find themselves not attending the honeymoon with Christ.

Back to the DHD's original post, he concluded with " So is it right for me to seek a means of partial separation? Again, I don't want to divorce. I'm not seeking another relationship. I just want peace, and I know that whenever I'm in her presence, I just sense tension and rejection. Being alone in a context of marriage would be better than this. Would I be honoring God? Or even better, how do I honor God while maintaining my sanity?

My response is still the same; what God put together (did DHD and his legal wife follow the architects design at the time), let no one take apart. What God did not put together, will probably not stand. But mankind can surely prop up the walls of a poorly built home, if mankind chooses to do so.

SoT

tragedy or hope · July 06, 2021, 09:32:19 AM

SoT,
Interesting thoughts. What do you do in a marriage when one spouse comes to faith and the other does not, but does not want to leave the relationship?

My understanding of scripture at this point of my life... 40 years of formal bible study is that God hates divorce, except for infidelity. And still if one can forgive, it is better to stay.

It is a very interesting subject as in this country most people base their commitment on feelings. These change when the lust subsides and real living takes place. As in the movie Forest Gump, "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get." Assuming one made a mistake in choice of spouse... takes away the sovereignty of God.

Since He is all knowing, either before or after faith h
His standard does not change, people do, He is the same "yesterday, today and forever." People can reinterpret as they choose. This is only for the believer who knows God does have a standard. Outside of faith, most make decisions on self satisfaction alone. (broad statement, not meant to be factual, just observation.)

Not to labor the story: I was not a believer but unpdh says he was and actually made some form of commitment before we met. Being flippant about it technically he married a non-believer.

In the end, I have been the most devoted to faith, in study and practice while I would assess his behaviors less than. I am not judging, this is an observation. Through the years, I see the value in having to grow up. Recognizing God gave ME a life too. I desire to be more pleasing to the principles of faith than my emotions.

We can presume unbelievers to not be committed, there is no reason and being self serving is their enslavement.

I know better. I also believe learning to love and forgive is not a skill, it is a lifelong process. I remove myself from harms way (most of the time, unless I get willful and create my own crisis by responding) but you give all here a very good example and practical apps.

I would not personally suggest divorce to anyone, IMO; I would be denying the sovereignty of God, and His purpose in the lives of both people. The caveat... children need safety and security.This too can be done without divorce.

I respect the personal decisions of others, but I feel I would betray my Lord in suggesting anything but a temporary separation for safety/serenity sake, with the goal being to get back together, living apart only if absolutely it is necessary.

If the goal is to become more like my Lord, then my challenge is to give up self, and allow Him to develop me with His intended personality and traits. Some of them are character qualities I would not attain without trials of this type. Again, I see His sovereignty.

At this stage of my life, I can very much love my unpdh, and on selfish days very much feel hate toward him. It is the behavior he choses that triggers my "feelings." IMO I must find a resolve to what is in MY heart that replaces compassion and biblical love with negatives.
fyi, I do not expect perfection from myself but God Himself is perfecting me until the day I meet Him face to face.

If my unpdh were with someone else, perhaps they would not even notice what I consider bad behaviors... because I believe the lessons here are for me. I can run from them or embrace that God must dig deep into my being daily to show me, I need a Savior for my dark heart, and he has provided one.

Thank you for deeper thought on this subject and the conversation. I hope it is helping doghousedweller.

1footouttadefog · July 06, 2021, 02:43:32 PM

In Biblical times men and women did mu h separately. Even worshipping separately.

Orthdox Jewish men and women sleep in separate beds due to the Levitical laws regarding discharges and such.

In some cultures men sleep in separate buildings from women and children.

Separation is not the same as divirse if you refrain from fornication and pornography etc while separated.

Unfortunately today many see separation as a sexual vacation from the marriage vows.

SonofThunder · July 07, 2021, 06:54:57 AM

Tragedy,

Thank you for the detailed reply and deep input on the subject of this conversation. I fully respect all who, like myself and you, and others who have chosen for the current time, to stay married to their pdSpouse.

I believe that scripture provides emotional support for those who marry an unbeliever or for a person who becomes a believer (after two unbelievers marry) while the other spouse has not, yet the Bible also supports not being yoked to an unbeliever as well in the first place.

I do not believe though the Bible lends support to remaining in an abusive marriage, as I believe the Bible is talking about two mentally healthy people and the true believing faith (or lack of) of one or both. I separate the 'abuser' from the 'believer', as unbelievers can be non-abusive, but imo, TRUE believers will not abuse, as a heart changed by Christ will not abuse. The byproducts of love that come from the heart of a believer are listed in 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 and that list is far from what most of us experience from a PD. Therefore if we experience the fairly consistent smoke of love (that list) from a person who declares faith in Christ, we can assume they have a real Christ-fire in the fireplace. If we experience the opposite, we can assume the it's actually a smokescreen of religion, to hide behind, and not a real fire in the heart. If we experience abuse, I believe it's a mentally unhealthy person.

But again, I believe the supporting verses for a believer to stay yoked to an unbeliever, are discussing two mentally healthy adults and the Bible does not condone staying yoked to an abuser. Full circle then, if the mentally unhealthy person, love-bombed the other to become yoked in marriage, then that love-bomber is not mentally healthy and smoke-screened the other and I do not believe it's a marriage. It may be a legal one on paper, but nothing more.

SoT