Continue Gray Rock, Or Confront?

[Thru the Rain]

I'm hoping this group can help me find the right path with my uPDM.

M is almost 80. She's alienated so many people in her life. I'm one of 4 children and we're all LC as much as possible. I live on the other side of the country from her and only see her about once a year (sometimes less).

I talk to her on the phone occasionally - about once a month. The last few phone calls, M has been saying things like (paraphrased) "You're my best friend" and "I don't even really think of you as a daughter anymore - you're really a friend".

I've been responding to this with gray rock - just making a uh-huh noise and changing the subject.

I had a call with her over the weekend, and she wants to come out and visit me. Absolutely not going to happen - she's a terrible house guest, won't get along with my DH, really doesn't visit - just naps and colors in her coloring books.

I gray rocked again. She asked when I might have some time, and I responded with something like "I don't think I'll have time anytime soon".

Here's my dilemma. I absolutely WON'T, EVER take my limited vacation time off from work to babysit her. I don't like spending time with her, she's certainly NOT my friend and never has been a friend - more like a "mean girl" bully alternating with helpless waif.

DH thinks I should state these things very directly. As in "no we're not friends and no you're not welcome to come and visit". DH sees how much my interactions with M trigger me, and he thinks giving some honest feedback would be helpful to me. I would **LOVE** to say these things to M, but I just can't get them out of my mouth. It's like I freeze up.

There's so much wisdom and experience here on these boards. Please share your thoughts and advice. Should I continue to gray rock? Or should I come right out and give her my real answer, which is "NO"?

[FromTheSwamp]

I used to think I was a coward, and that's why I was so afraid of confrontation.  Once I started to come Out of the FOG, I realized that I was afraid of confrontation because in the world of my parents any hint of confrontation would make everything SO MUCH WORSE.  No criticism could be gentle enough.  There was no way to talk through any sort of conflict since there was only one point of view that mattered - theirs.  Not getting their way led to tantrums and rage crying, and then them sabotaging any sort of solution.  If there was something that was the opposite of helpful, that would be the path taken.  They weren't any better at dealing with conflicts between the two of them, of course, so I didn't have any sort of good example to learn from. 

I have slowly become better at conflict resolution in the world of non-PDs, but with my parents it is still the same.  The only way out of a conflict with them is to give them what they wanted to start with or to avoid, avoid, avoid.  Not healthy at all, but I now can see it's not me who is the problem.

If your situation is similar, then your husband may be expecting a different result to your honesty than you are.  His way isn't wrong, of course.  You aren't wrong when you try to treat a PD person as if they might react normally, but you have to be willing to deal with the fallout. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Her best friend and the extent of the relationship is a medium chill monthly call? I smell love bombing. :hoover:

I mean, not that you might not be her best relationship. That part is very possibly true. But I had chills when I read, "You're not my daughter anymore, you're a friend." My mother has said that to me. Why she did, I don't know. But it's a There's a yucky reason she wants you out of the daughter spot. Probably for purposes of enmeshment.

But that's not actually important. You said: "I would **LOVE** to say these things to M, but I just can't get them out of my mouth. It's like I freeze up." Understandable! Have you read Toxic Parents? The whole last section deals with confrontation with very low expectations on the toxic parent to actually change and take on board what you are saying. You say it for yourself alone. And on the phone you can write it all out in advance and just stick to your script. Maybe check it out and see if it would suit you and if you'd be ready to take on the fallout. FromTheSwamp is right, there will be fallout. Maybe say your piece and then block her number.  Go out with DH and celebrate.

Gray rock is to encourage the pwpd to get bored and leave you alone. Are you in a routine with the phone calls? Who initiates them? Is it her or are you programmed to do it? If it's you, what if you just stopped and figure the phone works both ways? "Why haven't you called me???" "Oh, you know, stuff." It's up to you whether you'd rather keep doing that, or let a little honesty in and watch it burn. You also have the option of slowly fading away. Woman Interrupted had success with that as I recall. That is NOT cowardly to protect yourself. It's smart.

In my own personal situation, I did not directly confront my uNPD parents on anything other than the "last straw" incident, but that was enough for it all to come crashing down. I've done lots of journaling, but I'm not going to break NC to send anything. If I had known more before asking for space, I might have acted differently. And I wish so much my DH would throw it all down with his uNM. Not the healthiest course, perhaps, and in any case it's not up to me. But by golly it would be satisfying to get the truth out. And it would irrevocably be over. That's what I really want. No more FOG forever. Burn it! Burn it with fire!!! :We need a laughing maniacal arsonist emoji here: But I'm not initiating that kind of communication with uNMIL either. Even though she fully expects it. Why not? Self-preservation. Confrontation is bound to give all kinds of supply for one thing, and redouble her will to WIN. I know she's capable of great nastiness. So no, I'm not going to poke the dragon with a stick. As much as I might wish to some days.

So I have no idea how helpful that was! But I very much empathize with your dilemma. It's a no-win situation in many ways, as in you will never be able to fix the relationship, but on the bright side it's so messed up that the only wrong answer is to do what your mother would like. And you aren't doing that. So you are winning! 

[daughter]

It helps to acknowledge to yourself, and abide by, what YOU can comfortably accommodate, regardless what the implied expectation or expressed demand is.  The trick of a hoover is that it often seems impossible to ignore, or to refuse to comply, because we've been trained from childhood to be that obedient child who does whatever mom wants no matter the consequence or discomfort or inconvenience.  But now we can make the conscious choice, Out of the FOG and without JADE, to hereon process our internalization of our pd-disordered parents' expectations and demands, filtering them through the do I want to do this; why would I do this criteria. 

You noted your mother toggles between bully and waif, and has alienated most other people.  Okay, but she OWNS this bad behavior history, and it's not your responsibility to solve her relationship problems, nor to ignore the discomfort that she brings to you and DH.  Your kindness to her, those monthly calls, are probably already stressful, and more than most people do for her given the circumstances.  We don't stick our heads in the lion's cage, because we know the lion will grievously bite us.  As adults, our parents are not our keepers, nor excused from their bad behaviors and resulting inappropriate demands.  You're not your mother's defacto vacation destination.  You're not obligated to pretend that you're doting and attentative to her expectations.  You've named your legitimate concerns, and should honor them.  Your mother is blessed that you remain in contact with her, given circumstances, even if it's not per her terms and conditions.  You don't need to express this in frankly-phrased words, but you can act in accordance with your boundaries and your specific intention to limit contact to phone calls.

[WomanInterrupted]

CMC - I only had "luck" doing a slow fade in that I wouldn't budge, but unBPD Didi kept having herself hospitalized, thinking I'd *have* to come running, and she'd *win.*   

Every time she pulled a stunt like that, I called even less - and she never seemed to figure out the cause and effect of it all.   

My real luck came when she finally dropped dead. 

TtR - I can understand you wanting to rip off the band aid and just SAY IT, but IME, it won't do much good.  She is *unable* to be held accountable for her own bad behavior - she just won't do it.  And even if you try to say it gently, it'll still be like you lobbed a verbal hand grenade at her.

The plus side is, she'll probably give you the Silent Treat, and you won't have to worry about her trying to invite herself over, any time soon. 

What I used to do with Didi, when she'd try to wrangle an invite, was stress our never-ending home improvement projects and all that plaster dust - it was everywhere, you can never get it all, and when you think you do, everything has a lovely dusty patina again, a short time later.

She was mortally terrified about getting a cold or breathing dust, so it worked quite nicely - and our house is 100 years old, and was pretty much a dump when we bought it, so the renovations were - and still are - extensive.

If you don't want to use that as an excuse, if she brings it up again, I'd stick with, "Now isn't a good time.  I'll have to get back to you on that one." - and then you just *don't.*

If she asks again, I'd tell her  it still isn't a good time, and you will let her know.

If she asks again, I'd say, "Mom, I told you I'd let you know, so please drop it.  It's just not a good time."

Eventually, you might get so sick of her *inability to take no for an answer* that you get angry and say, "Mom - NEVER is going to be a good time.  You can't visit.  We don't have time to babysit you, so forget it."

And cue the Silent Treat! 

So...you've got a lot of options to choose from, at least - and I hope they help.

Oh!  Another thing you could do is print off an article by Miss Manners on how rude it is to invite yourself to somebody's house for an extended stay, and send it to her. 

[illogical]

...M is almost 80. She's alienated so many people in her life. I'm one of 4 children and we're all LC as much as possible. I live on the other side of the country from her and only see her about once a year (sometimes less).

I talk to her on the phone occasionally - about once a month. The last few phone calls, M has been saying things like (paraphrased) "You're my best friend" and "I don't even really think of you as a daughter anymore - you're really a friend".

Hi Thru the Rain!

This "You're my best friend" stuff sounds like a hoover.  She's "elevated" you from "daughter status" to "best friend status".  She wants you to do stuff for her that "best friends" would do-- call more often, visit, tell each other secrets, etc., etc.  Daughters aren't obligated to do that, but best friends are (in her mind).  So she tries to hoover you into thinking that you are now her best friend and are obligated to get closer. 

I would treat that as a hoover and address it, as your husband suggested, but with no JADEing.  The next time she said that, I would call her out on it and say, "I don't know where you came up with this "I'm your best friend" stuff, mother.  I'm your daughter.  I'm not your best friend."  She probably will be offended at this, but so be it.  She may try to "shame" you and say "Oh, I see.  You don't like me anymore."  Perfect segue into "I'm sorry you feel that way."  Don't JADE here.  State the facts and let the chips fall-- they may be logs, so be prepared.  If she reacts with the silent treatment, and doesn't call you for awhile, celebrate, as others have suggested.   

But I would set her straight-- in a nice, but firm way, that you are not her best friend. 

You have said she has alienated most people in her life, and all of her children are LC.  I wonder if she has used this You-are-my-best-friend tactic with your siblings? 

I think she's trying to put you in a double-bind, or no-win situation here.  You acknowledge she's your best friend, she has her foot in the door to call you more often and visit-- i.e., the hoover has worked.  You don't, you are a "bad person" for ignoring your poor, pitiful and "friendless" mother-- i.e., the shaming tactic has worked.  Don't take either one of those labels.  They are bait.  If, after you tell her you aren't her best friend (with no explanation as to why) and she still persists, say "I'm not going to discuss this anymore with you."  And get off the phone.

I think that shutting her down with this "I'm your bestie" business will likely result in her not asking you to host her in a visit.  As I said, she may give you the Silent Treatment (only for awhile, though, rest assured of that) and at least give you a much needed break from her.  Keep on, at any rate, with your grey rocking when she does bring up visiting you.  You're doing great!

[Thru the Rain]

Thank you for the thoughtful responses! I appreciate the validation.

I'm always amazed that so many of us have had enough similar experiences with PD!

I'm going to continue to practice gray rock with uPDM about any visits. She's not the type to just turn up on my doorstep (Thank God!), so I can hold her off indefinitely on a visit.

And I'm thinking of going to be pushing back on the "best friend" business. I realized as I typed this that I've been trained by M to be wishy-washy around her. And it makes me really angry.

I don't expect to talk with her again for at least another 3 or 4 weeks. I'll come back with an update on how things go.

Thank you all again - you've helped me regain some balance.

[WomanInterrupted]

I think that might be the best point to push back on BUT please be aware that it can be a double-edged sword.

You tell her you're not her BFF - you're her daughter.

And that's where it can get tricky, and all go wrong.

Being that she's PD, she's not going to let that go, unchallenged, and might say something about a DAUGHTER would be taking better care of her and inviting her to live in your home, and she wouldn't have to *BEG* to visit you.   

See what I mean?

I mean, you know her best, and you can predict her response from your past interactions with her - I'm just going by what I know unBPD Didi would have said to me, if I'd pushed back on the best friend thing, which she did do, but at that time, I was afraid to fight that battle because I really didn't know how to respond to it.   

She was already to free with the "somebody should" and "nobody is doing" crap (meaning me), and I didn't want her to escalate - but in retrospect, it might not have been a bad thing if she'd just come right out and said, "A DAUGHTER would let me have a hospital bed in her living room, and be taking care of me!"

It would have done away with a lot of hints, prompts, insinuation and sneakiness on her part, if she'd said it and I'd shot it down with, "That's just not possible.  If you need care, you'll have to hire an aide or go into a nursing home."   

See what I mean about a double-edged sword? 

Saying that to her might have been enough to make her go NC (Silent Treat) *permanently* - which ultimately would have been a better outcome than her constantly upping her BS.   

As  long as you're prepared for any response indicating  a daughter would OWE her and take care of her, financially support her, move her in, move in to hers with the kids and leave that nasty old DH of yours, or any other FOGhorn response -  you've GOT this.   

I'm not trying to dissuade you - but prepare  you so you can have a successful call, and not hang up thinking, "Dammit!  I walked right into that!"   

One thing I'd like you to remember - YOU have all the power here, and your mom actually has very little, to none.

And you've  got  a good 3-4 weeks before you call - IF you even want to call.

Please remember:   it's not *required.*  If you want to space that out to a longer period, you are ALLOWED.  That is your RIGHT, as an *adult.* 

[Spring Butterfly]

My take is to be direct but soft as in "no that's not going to work for me" or "no my vacation time off is limited and reserved for me and DH alone" so it's not an attack, nothing to do with them, stated from a position of what I can't do
It's also bullet proof in that no one can argue with it. They can try but I have not handed an excuse to them so they have nothing to "help" me overcome in order for them to get what they want. It's just better not to string them along with false hopes or false ideas. They can if they wish but at least I'm not giving them false hope or dancing around issues. If it sends them off the rails exit the conversation immediately.

It always helps for me to review medium chill in the toolbox which is very different than gray rock. Gray rock is being unattractive and invisible to begin with but if they've got their sites set on you then medium chill works best. It isn't about avoiding confrontation, it's about removing ourselves from an abusive situation gracefully and with the least damage. If these conversations damage you then it's time to change tactics.

[moglow]

I've gone down and continue the gray rock trail. I change and/or avoid the subject whenever presented, and I've gotten good at it. Truth be told, mother's not that interested in visits either but wants to have a waify "I'm an old woman and all alone" card to play. Okay, here it is and may you have joy of it!
I don't care for the circular conversation that ensues when she's confronted head on. I know I'm not interested in visiting and neither is she. Dragging it all out to the harsh light of day rarely ends well. It is what it is. That said, Spring B is correct - evasion isn't helpful either. Absolutely end the conversation when it goes bad - don't be me and think you can somehow stop that train with readoning and common sense ...

[illogical]

If you don't call her out on her hoover that you and she are "best friends", I think it allows her to push harder to invade your space and call for a visit.  You posted in your last post that she wanted to come and visit you and asked when you might have time.

I think that sooner or later, no matter what you say to her, she is going to be upset that you won't allow her to visit.  I would be prepared for that.  She may likely escalate her "pushing in" on you after you tell her, over and over, that "this isn't a good time."

It has been my experience that PDs don't like you lowering contact.  Your mother is elderly, has alienated her children, and wants emotional support and supply.  You can do the following--

*continue with grey rock (i.e., play dead) and put her off

*continue with medium chill (i.e. no emotional reaction) and put her off

*tell her directly that "we're not best friends" and deal with the fallout

*use a combo of the above

Only you know her well enough to know what's best.  In my experience, it made me very weary to just keep on putting my mother off on the visits.  But that's what I did-- I gradually let go of the rope.  I did, however, confront her before that on a couple of issues and she backed down.  Eventually, I went NC.

Good luck and keep us posted on your decision!

[lkdrymom]

I think you are like me.  No matter how awful someone is to us, we just can't bring ourselves to be nasty back.  It would kill us to hurt someone else's feelings.  Something we need to get over.  I would gloss over the BFF stuff.  When she says she wants to visit just tell her that your vacation time is already booked for the next two years.  My father wants to me to take him back to the coffee shop in his old town. He thinks he can visit with people he once knew.  The thing is,no one there is going to remember him so it will be a wasted trip.  Plus I don't want to use a precious vacation day to take him for a blasted cup of coffee. He has a lot of time on his hands, but I don't.

[lotusblume]

Those kind of love bombing Hoover's definitely hit where it hurts... I think it is a form of emotional incest and blackmail that gets your guilt to increase and makes you feel like a little child responsible for their feelings. It helps me to remember that I'm not responsible for anyone's feelings but my own and that that kind of behaviour is unhealthy, and quite frankly, gross. I have been NC with my FOO for some months now, and the last person I had been in contact with was my grandmother. I realised that she was not just a flying monkey but also narcissistic. Her son, my mother's brother, is in his 50s and moved back in with her a few years ago and now he is responsible for "taking care of her." I see that everyone around her has been groomed to do so. I used to take her shopping, to the doctors, etc. The whole FOO revolves around her needs. When I went NC with my parents, after initially "being on my side" she swiftly turned against me, and has been acting as a flying monkey as well as love bombing and hoovering me. I finally stopped answering her emails after she said some really inappropriate things, along the lines of "best friends", that I was her soulmate!! This happened while I was beginning to emotionally detach and see her for who she was. She has been getting more and more desperate, contacting me every few days/weeks... Love-bombing, acting waifish... I get guilt attacks and abuse amnesia sometimes but ultimately I've been NC with her for a little while because I was getting way too much anxiety, and was quite frankly disgusted by the intergenerational abuse in my FOO. It is hard to get over the feeling of not wanting to hurt someone's feelings... But there is a difference between being malevolent and trying to hurt someone, and feeling guilty because you assume you are hurting their feelings by not letting them manipulate you into doing whatever they want you to do. It's about control, them getting you to behave like a "good girl" who will do as they wish, and not about them caring about you and wanting to maintain a relationship that benefits you BOTH.

[Thru the Rain]

I'm back with an update.

uPDM called me yesterday. This is something that almost never happens - it's always me who initiates calls.

Before answering, I reminded myself of my planned responses if she tries the "you're my BFF" line again. She didn't bring that up - so I didn't either. Staying strong for next time!

It turns out she was calling to complain (and now that I think of it, the only reason SHE calls ME).

Turns out none of her four kids included her in Easter plans. And {waif}{waif} she had to have FAST FOOD for Easter. Cue the sackcloth and ashes!

I pointed out to her that many hotels and restaurants offer nice brunch / lunch / dinner options on holidays. I suggested she research some options for next time.

What I didn't do (yay me!) was invite her to my home for next Easter or any other upcoming holiday. I also didn't express ANY sympathy for the sad, sad state of her life.

That was the shortest call I've ever had with M. She was clearly looking for someone to wipe away the crocodile tears, and I just wasn't having it.

And later it occurred to me - Easter is on the calendar for all to see. I can see when next year's Easter is right now if I wanted to.

Starting the day after Valentine's Day, you can't go to the grocery store without seeing the Easter candy, and Easter dinner options on the shelves.

And as I mentioned to her, many restaurants offer nice Easter meals. She could also have bought some very nice food to have an Easter dinner at home. Most grocery stores also offer fully prepared meals for holidays.

She could have also *gasp* invited family to her house for Easter dinner. She has one kid and several grandchildren who live in her area. She could have found some lonely people at her church to invite to for dinner. Could have but didn't.

And many people without family obligations (and many who do have family obligations) spend holidays at food banks/soup kitchens helping to take care of others.

At the very least, she knew on Saturday night that she had no specific plans for Easter. She could have gone to the store and bought whatever she wanted. And I would bet my last dollar she has a full supply of Easter candy at home, so Easter didn't just arrive on her doorstep without any notice.

And she's not all alone. enDad was there, eating fast food along with her.

I'm just shaking my head - and most of all feeling good about not getting sucked into the drama.

[Call Me Cordelia]

 

Excellent work!!! So proud of you.

The waif act is so stupid, for all the reasons you said. They have only themselves to blame. But who cares about LOGIC when I'm trying to GUILT you! I need you to be miserable more than I wish to be happy.

And yet another wow, they really are all using the same playbook. Reminds me of the time my uNparents *had* to have *Christmas dinner* at a *gas station* because they were *so hungry* after leaving my house. At which I had a full buffet of good things, and tons of leftovers, but not the expected roast and potatoes. So that was the same as me starving them. 

[illogical]

Cordelia-- really, that is just beyond the pale!   

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thanks, illogical. It was the last straw for me, incidentally. I forget just how abnormal these sort of things are, having been the air I breathed for nearly my entire life. I guess that's why I still need to tell my story and receive that validation over a year later. When someone on a board all about PD behavior and where we've all been around the block tells me it really was beyond the pale, it helps me actually believe it.

Anyway, back to Thru the Rain's thread... sorry for the tangent.

[Thru the Rain]

Thanks for the validation Cordelia!

Having a place where we've all had so many similar experiences really does take a lot of the sting and stigma out of these odd situations!

[WomanInterrupted]

You handled her like a BOSS!  Very nicely done!   

God, this is SO familiar!   

It's Christmas Eve and *nobody* has done *anything* about dinner.  What are unBPD  Didi and unNPD Ray going to DO  for Christmas!??   

As  you mentioned, ThrutheRain, it's not like Christmas sneaks up and grabs you by the short ones.  They start Christmas ads here the week *before* Halloween - and the stores follow suit.  It's almost become one big amalgam:  Halthanksmasmukkah.   

You can't *not* notice.   

Well, since our house was full of the afore-mentioned plaster dust *everywhere* (it wasn't   ) and CATS!  that could KILL her by tripping her (they wouldn't - they'd get one look at Didi and Ray and head for the upstairs!   ), I suggested  she call Denny's - they're open on Christmas.

She  said she just *couldn't do that.*   

I told her I didn't know what to tell her, but I was *certain* she'd figure something out. 

She tried waifing about her health concerns, but I referred her back to her doctor - and she slammed the phone down.      

Normally, that would mean a two-week Silent Treat, but oh noes, not THIS time.  Her Waify Majesty actually called me the next day to tell me they had sandwiches for Christmas  dinner. 

I said that sounded nice - we hadn't done much, either.   

And we really hadn't -  I think I did a roast that year, but  I roast meat all the time.  I love to cook.  Roasting is a part of cooking and to me, not a big deal - but I didn't tell Didi that.   

Didi  *did* remind me she's so siiiiiick - call your doctor.  She ran out of her medication and her doctor is on vacation, and the substitute  doctor  actually wants to SEE her, during flu season!!!!!!!!!!   

Didi  had *never* run out of medication in the entire time I've known her, so I said, "Well, then you'll have to see that doctor."   

BANG!   

My ear rang for a minute or  two, but dammit  *stop trying to make me responsible for your personal well-being!*   

And it's these small victories  that are actually *monumental!*   

We detach.  We live with the discomfort, accept it, and realize we have *done nothing wrong.*   

If Didi didn't notice the approaching holiday  - that wasn't my problem.

If she couldn't ASK to come over for dinner - again, not my problem.   (And it would have been rebuffed with, "Sorry - we can't do that.")   

Her problems were not mine.  Hers - and unNPD Ray's - were mostly of their own making.  And I wasn't responsible for that.  I didn't have to jump in and rescue or save them from themselves  - especially when they really didn't want rescuing or saving, but just wanted to abdicate responsibility while retaining *total* control.     

You have SO got this!   

And I'm very, very, very proud of you!   

[Thru the Rain]

WI - Your ability to turn lemons into lemonade is amazing. Along with your willingness and generosity in sharing that lemonade out to the rest of us.

I love reading your posts and you've provided me with so much encouragement and hope over the months (years...) that I've been reading here. Thank you.

I'm continually amazed at other people's parents who pull the same stunts. Sandwiches (or gas station food) on Christmas. And I'm sure this information was shared in the same tone of voice I got - half quavery, half sooooooo angry. I swear they have a play book!