LC/ VLC provoking silence from them ?

[Sheppane]

So I have needed to set some boundaries around how often I make contact with FOO. Mom/ sis v enmeshed duo sisuBPD mom enabler / both have cov narc traits. What I'm noticing is as I have reduced frequency of contact it doesn't provoke hoovering as others have mentioned here...but silence. Im now the only one making contact. Have I just been discarded? Provoked an abandonment reaction and rather than them feeling abandoned I'm abandoned first?  I did have to set a boundary recently and got a passive aggressive response...silence since then..so I have decided to wait it out rather than go running back.  Except I know if I do not make contact no one else will and if I persist , wait , it will go on forever and I will ultimately be blamed ie I feel I'm getting silent treatment and being set up to either cave or else expose myself to ' you havent called for weeks /months ' which at that stage would likely be true if I leave it go on. I feel I'm stuck and sucked into a game. Don't know whether to make contact and risk exposing myself to the whole DARVO thing  or do nothing- and then be accused of not making contact for weeks - which would then be true and they would be in a position of power over me. I know this works both ways and they could equally call but if I say that it will end up in a circular conversation. So confused. Other alternative is to call as usual and not reference it, see what happens.
Anyone else get this ? I have read more about LC triggering increased contact/ hoover manoeuvres,  not less.

[Leonor]

Hi Sheppane,

Congratulations on setting a boundary about contact with your disordered family. Since they're covert, it's not surprising that they're giving you the silent treatment. It's their passive aggressive way of pouting about you setting a boundary.

I'd encourage you to observe your own reactions to this new boundary you've set. In your post, I hear anxiety: why aren't they calling me? Will they reach out? What if they don't? Should I call them or not?

All of those questions are totally normal. It's bewildering when people we love seem to simply carry on without us, without a second thought. We worry that we actually will never hear from them again, and that it may be somehow our fault. When the tension becomes unbearable, we finally reach out, breaking our own boundary. And our passive aggressive family feels vindicated. "See?" They say. "We knew she didn't really mean it. We knew she'd come crawling back one day."

Sheppane, stay strong in your boundary. You haven't done anything *to* anyone else. You merely shared information about what feels right for *you*. Let them react the way they want to react.

In the meantime, create a safe space to soothe and take care of the part of you feeling so worried. That's where the healing begins!

[Cat of the Canals]

My NPD/BPD mom does both ST and hoovering in response to me setting boundaries and limiting contact. I honestly can't usually predict which it will be. If I try to, I'm usually wrong.

You said "Don't know whether to make contact and risk exposing myself to the whole DARVO thing  or do nothing- and then be accused of not making contact for weeks - which would then be true and they would be in a position of power over me. I know this works both ways and they could equally call but if I say that it will end up in a circular conversation."

It sounds like you are in a place where you are trying to win some sort of argument or score points or get them to admit that you are right. I don't mean this to sound accusatory - it's something we all go through, I think. We all have a hope to finally be HEARD for once. To be told we aren't the ones being unreasonable.

But you're never going to get that from a PD. They don't admit fault (unless to use it as some kind of waif/guilt maneuver). They engineer every conflict to put themselves in the victim role.

The only true way to get out of the DARVO cycle is to stop playing along. Stop acknowledging this so-called position of power. If they want to pretend they have some moral high ground because YOU haven't called them, let them have it. It's meaningless. You know it, and on some level, they know it too. Don't let yourself be manipulated into playing a rigged game where they always win and you always lose.

If you don't feel like talking, don't call. If you do? Then call. My own personal rule is that if I feel I'm being motivated by even a *tinge* of guilt, I don't call.

Also, in anticipation of the next call, I'd suggest getting acquainted with the Medium Chill guide in the Toolbox. I printed it out and stuck it to my fridge, and now I have practically the whole thing memorized.  If they accuse you of giving THEM the silent treatment, you say, "Nope. I've just been busy. What's up with you?"

Don't take the bait. Don't play the game. Just let the petty comments slide by and move onto a different subject.

[Sheppane]

Thank you both for your replies. Yes Leonor this really stood out when you said we worry " that it may be somehow our fault".  I keep questioning/ doubting myself. And that leads to so much confusion and back into FOG. Mainly causes me to question am I being fair? Am I being childish ? Should I just let them react in their PA way and just call them anyway-  as I've done nothing wrong ?

Cat of the Canals you said "They engineer every conflict to put themselves in the victim role " . This is so true and I appreciated the reminder that it simply will not change and the only way through is not to play the game. That's it exactly- it always feels like a game and now I dont know what my next move is. I dont mean that in a manipulative way I simply mean I genuinely don't know what the next right thing to do is.

If I think of the silent treatment as a game- then if I do nothing ie. respond to silence with silence surely I'm part of the game ? Am I not better to break it- carry on as normal,  call for a friendly convo as I've done nothing wrong? Let them have their reactions? Or is that me doing exactly what is wanted? I guess my question is in this situation which is "not playing the game " - a) calling them to break the silence,  or b)responding to their silence with silence,  waiting for them to make contact?

It's almost like setting myself up for gaslighting in advance because if I don't call - then I'll be accused of silent treatment. I feel trapped.

I can feel fear setting in too because as time passes I am aware of not seeing them / not arranging family meet ups which will all be noted and used as evidence against me of how I don't care about them etc. Now that most are vaccinated where I live , family gatherings are now possible and yet because of this latest episode I haven't arranged to meet...i feel a mix of guilt and sadness but also fear of this being held against me and added to the narrative. It also triggers in me a sense of what I know to be false guilt and a fear that they feel I am abandoning them. Which I don't want them to feel but I guess I cant control that either. They will feel what they feel whether it is true or not.
Any advice on which path to take next greatly appreciated 

[DistanceNotDefense]

Sheppane, thank your for sharing your doubts here. I want you to know I've been through the exact same cycles of thought: self-doubt, guilt, feeling like I need to cave in, wondering: am I the childish one?

I also have a covert Narc family that went the silent treatment route. My take on it, is ST is a punishing and controlling effort to force you to respond and make all the contact - because you have boundaries and are no longer doing what they want, their pride kicks in and their attitude is "because of your boundaries you OWE me all the work of contact." (In extremely small writing, though, they still do want contact with you, and it is an act.)

In other words: if you reach out (out of guilt, that is - if you really need/want to communicate something to them and it's important, that's different) it's playing the game. You're OK to not respond, because this is a power play and attempt to control you through shame and FOG. You're also not abandoning them - they're grown-ups and can take care of themselves, and besides, this is the result of their grown-up choices.

A quick example from my own experience: I told FOO that under certain conditions and broken boundaries, I would have to withhold and cut off contact for a time (I didn't say no contact forever, I just said "I need space.") Of course, they traipsed over the line again by contacting me like nothing happened. I did not respond. When they realized I wouldn't answer the guilt-tripping gift-sending began along with their Silent Treatment in response.

I went through months of it and restructured my life so I get my needs met elsewhere, no longer from them. But do know that even covert narcs in silent treatment want a result from that ST and they don't restructure their needs in a healthy way at all. When I never gave in and they didn't get what they wanted, they did start to hoover, HARD. They can't keep up ST forever if it doesn't get them what they want. In fact, it was harder to deal with their hoovers than the silence - but even these I did not respond to, except I did reiterate that they could go back through our messages to indeed see that I had no choice.

They went back to silent treatment again but I'm almost certain they will break it again in a few months, when they see it doesn't work. And on and on and on it will go, as they choose to dance around the reality of their horrific choices.

Unhealthy PDs and dysfunctional people have extremely low emotional maturity, close to a child or teenager. When a child throws a tantrum, do you cave in because you're afraid you'll lose the relationship? No. You know it's an attempt to control, so you stick with your guns. Of course with a child, there's hope you can model more ideal behavior to them in time, and of course you can't respond with silence! They depend on you too, and doing that back to them is abusive.

But in this case, these are adults who are making childish choices, and in a way they're trying to force you into this parentified/caretaker role (yes, even your parent is). So ask yourself, who's being childish? And how do you respond to childish behavior?

You don't give in or give a bother, and hope they'll grow up while you move your mind to other things. Easier said than done, I know. But these are adults who made choices. If you don't check in on them, they will be OK, they can take care of themselves. And who knows, maybe they will realize something from the consequences of their actions. Or more likely they won't if they're really PD, but that's not your problem.

Another thing Sheppane, is the fear you express about their responding to your boundaries: taking note, building evidence, making a case against you. A very similar thing happened to me, where my contact slowed to reinforce boundaries, and instead of respecting them they noticed, doubled down, and changed their tactics. They poured the guilt on thick while enjoying running around and moving the goal posts, enticing me to contact them more and then slamming a cold door in my face once I obliged. It was a weird cat and mouse game: they get a cruel satisfaction seeing you try so hard, and then they get off even harder on withholding it from you.

I'm not saying this could happen to you, but I eventually had to go NC and just clean the slate to keep my sanity, especially when I realized they weren't adding to my life - rather they were taking up prime real estate in my mind by being deliberately confusing. There is a painful hole, a wound, and emptiness where they were, and I have been grief-stricken; but my mind is freed up now to do so much more and grow so much. In fact, this time away from them would make any possibility of a relationship with them somewhere in the future much, MUCH better anyway. It can be the best choice under these circumstances, albeit the most painful.

Some people can dwell in that place of uncertainty, and medium chill the situation into some equilibrium with LC/VVVLC but I personally found that I could not. The curtain had been ripped away and I just had to get out at that point.

What I'm saying is, is if their behavior gets worse (punishing/guilting you for boundaries), you can always just put up more boundaries. The unfortunate price is grappling with guilt after a lifetime of being conditioned by family that, if you don't do as covertly obligated, something is wrong with you. But once you master those feelings, you are free.

[Cat of the Canals]

I guess my question is in this situation which is "not playing the game " - a) calling them to break the silence,  or b)responding to their silence with silence,  waiting for them to make contact?

1. Don't think of yourself as a player in the game. Your mom and sister might be playing games, but you don't have to. And if you aren't playing the game, you don't have to consider what the "correct" move might be.
2. Stop worrying about how your choices and behavior will be interpreted. Make your choices based on what suits your own needs, values, goals, mental health, etc.
3. Whatever you decide, like you said: "Let them have their reactions."


The last time I got the major ST was when I told my mother I was thinking of a long-distance move. She said a lot of hostile, passive-aggressive things to me meant to undermine my confidence, and then I didn't hear from her for weeks. When she found out my husband and I had flown to this new city to look at houses (something she heard from my brother), the hoovering began. Aggressively and obnoxiously so.

I didn't immediately respond to her (many) phone calls. So my brother flapped in on Flying Monkey wings, telling me that "now would be a good time to smooth things over." Ugh.

I told him I wasn't going to do that. That she had said hurtful things to me, and I was still processing it. He accused me of being angry (which I denied, because in our family only mom is allowed to be angry) and told me I was acting "just like her." To him, it looked like I was giving the silent treatment back to her. He absolutely couldn't see it any other way. And it wasn't like I could "prove" to him that I was taking a break to care for myself and not to punish her. He also couldn't get past the long-established family routine, which is for everyone to go back to "normal" and pretend nothing ever happened once PDmom decides she's "over it."

I'm not going to say I didn't have doubts. The first thing I had to do was admit (to myself) that I WAS angry. And with good reason! Then I asked myself whether I was trying to punish her by giving the ST back. But I didn't think I was. I wasn't trying to hurt her. I wasn't trying to elicit some response (like an apology). I was angry and hurt and needed time for that to pass so I wouldn't (1) feel like I was stuffing my own feelings down for her benefit (the usual routine in our family) or (2) end up confronting her (which I knew would be pointless).

I needed space. I needed time. I took a few days. I journaled a lot. I tried to work through those negative feelings. Putting myself first was hard, because the whole family revolves around PDmom so much that I never ask myself, "What do I want? What do I need?" I was listening to my emotions and my body (I actually felt physically ill at the thought of talking to her for a while). But I knew I did want to talk to her again. I just needed to be in a much less vulnerable state of mind when I did. And I needed it to be my choice vs. something I did out of obligation or fear.

When I felt I was up to it, I called. I'm sure my mother felt like she'd "won." That's fine. She can have her empty victories. She probably also thought the things she'd said to me were forgotten. They were not. Not because I'm keeping score, but because I need to be mindful of who she really is and what she's capable of.

So when I'm in doubt, I always ask myself: Am I being motivated by spite? Or am I feeling vulnerable and need time away from this person to work through it? Self-care and self-protection are 100% valid motivations. If my brother or mother or anyone else wants to call that "selfish," they are welcome to. But I'm an adult and my first responsibility is to take care of myself.

[Dandelion]

Yep, Sheppane, sounds very familiar.  A great question that has made me think.  Silent Treatment or withdrawal usually in response to boundaries, rather than hoovering.  Feeling you can't win no matter what you do. 

The "silent treatment" response, plus snarky "Oh I thought you'd left the country", when I did contact (after two weeks!).  I have also had the same doubts and been confused as to what to do, just as you describe. 

My view now is "Medium Chill" all the way.  Keep your boundaries.  If she complains about your boundaries, just "Medium Chill" it.  I am NC right now, but if I were LC/VLC (perhaps its easier to imagine from the space NC has provided) my response would be a light and breezy "well, you could ring me if you wanted to speak to me ".

The unspoken "fear" for me is that this may trigger an angry or contemptuous rebuke, start an argument, or increase Silent Treatment (and my sense of rejection on the receiving end).  But it takes two to tango in terms of an argument at least.  If there's an angry retort back, noting it as another unpleasant character trait, and change the subject, "Nice weather for ducks", "Have you been out today?".  And then just carry on MAINTAINING the BOUNDARY.  See what happens!  If she slopes off, gets angry, intensifies her silent treatment, well, thats her choice.

Thats what I would do anyway.  My mother and I are NC at the moment, but if we ever did/do renew contact, this is the scenario I imagine I would be enacting.  Maybe its easier said than done but whats the alternative?

Her response may be to do a whole Silent Treatment number.  Thats her choice.  I would carry on.  Medium Chill.  With my boundaries.

Ultimately, if she wants to stay permanently miffed, or herself to drift into permanent Silent Treatment, thats HER choice and she is free to choose that.  A thought I have: I think we have to be able to let them go, if that is what they want.

[Hazy111]

Dandelion, Re your mother:  Have you read "Understanding the Borderline Mother" ? by Christine Lawson . Its reviewed on this site.  Apologies if you have. " All Borderlines are narcissists , all narcissists arent Borderlines"

[Starboard Song]

....What I'm noticing is as I have reduced frequency of contact it doesn't provoke hoovering as others have mentioned here...but silence. Im now the only one making contact. Have I just been discarded?

I feel I'm getting silent treatment and being set up to either cave or else expose myself to ' you havent called for weeks /months ' which at that stage would likely be true if I leave it go on.

I feel I'm stuck and sucked into a game. Don't know whether to make contact and risk exposing myself to the whole DARVO thing  or do nothing- and then be accused of not making contact for weeks - which would then be true and they would be in a position of power over me.

I encourage us to enforce our boundaries, but to otherwise not play games. You cannot be sucked into a game you don't play.

We experienced something like you are experiencing, though it is true that you hear more of hoovering here. We got a long Silent Treat when we enforced boundaries. And rather than any silver-tongued hoovering, we only got sporadic mail: always ugly, nasty, and insulting. They might end on some sort of "we'll always love you" note, or an entreaty to talk, but never trying to feign love or kindness.

The deal is this: there is no game with fixed rules that you can play to win. Like in the old movie War Games, the only way to win is not to play. That doesn't mean you never call them, or that you do or don't talk about the issue. It just means you don't try to strategize. If you'd like to maintain contact with them, call them from time to time despite their silence. If you want to address an open issue, bring it up. Maybe you are content to let it go as long as they respect your boundaries now. If that works out, that's fine too.

What won't work is calling to avoid DARVO, or not calling to avoid something else, or in any other way to try to play and win. You deserve the joy of relationships in which you can find joy. You deserve the cold comfort, even, of maintaining a threadbare relationship where you can, for that is important to many people. Please remember that the point of boundaries is your right to peace.

[Dandelion]

Dandelion, Re your mother:  Have you read "Understanding the Borderline Mother" ? by Christine Lawson . Its reviewed on this site.  Apologies if you have. " All Borderlines are narcissists , all narcissists arent Borderlines"

Hi, Hazy, one of the few books I haven't read  !  I'll take a look at the review.  I did have a friend who was Borderline so am versed to some extent, and don't think my mother is.  But I'll definitely look at the review and see what comes up.  Thanks.

[Cat of the Canals]

What won't work is calling to avoid DARVO, or not calling to avoid something else, or in any other way to try to play and win.

I was trying to figure out a way to say this, but you pretty much summed it up exactly.

No matter what you do, you will lose if you are only thinking of the situation in terms of their game, because it's rigged against you. You have choose boundaries for YOU, regardless of how they might be interpreted by those "playing the game."

[Seven]

Ahhh, the old War Games reference.  It's my personal quote on here. "The only winning move is not to play" I just happen to say it in my head in a computerized "Joshua" voice 

[Sheppane]

Wow thanks everyone for your super helpful replies I feel very supported. The more identification really helps me . Cat ofCanals you are right I do not have to be one of the players in the game. Thinking about it that way really flips it on its head. There's a game on now - not started by me ! The self doubt and Guilt and fear takes over and I start strategizing what to do next. Amazing freedom to think maybe I don't have to go there at all. I can call when I feel like it. On my terms.

Dandelion I will look over MC thank you and it is so easy for me to overlook the fact these are "HER " choices especially when my psyche is constructed around feeling guilty and taking on others feelings.  It's not like I'm doing it , she is. Even if I fear that's how it will be thought of that I'm the one giving the ST at least I know I'm not.  Really like the reminder that I CANT be sucked into a game I don't play

Distance not defence you put it exactly as it happens- self doubt , guilt, caving in. I really needed to be reminded that ST is controlling and punishing.  I think I need to get in touch with some anger around that to get over the self doubt. You are right it is punishing. They have no fear of punishing me yet I am afraid what they will say / do/ think if I don't appease it all 
I always have this fear that I  will be accused of abandoning them. I guess they are grown ups and that's another tool in the game. It has been said to me before in full rage how I neglect / absndon them " leave them to rot " were the exact words.

That cat and mouse thing is a cruel game and yes that is exactly how it happens. Enough of a file is built up against me and taken out as needed. I could nor have described it better.

Starboard song " the only way to win is not to play " ! I need to pin that on a wall somewhere.

Ok for now I think I will continue to do NOTHING until i feel like doing something. When I do make contact I will guarantee it will be PA or rage/ DARVO. Maybe I will be proven wrong but you know sometimes I need to see these things a 1,000 times for reality to sink in and the self doubt and Guilt to go away ...
.

[Cat of the Canals]

Ok for now I think I will continue to do NOTHING until i feel like doing something. When I do make contact I will guarantee it will be PA or rage/ DARVO. Maybe I will be proven wrong but you know sometimes I need to see these things a 1,000 times for reality to sink in and the self doubt and Guilt to go away ...

In my experience, they choose hoovering over PA or DARVO because they either want something from you and know they have to "play nice" to get it, or they get worried that they've finally pushed things a little too far.

And re: your comment about needing to see it 1000 times before it sinks in, I think it always feels like a painfully slow process. But if you consider that you're in the process of undoing several decades' worth of dysfunctional conditioning, it makes sense that it takes time.

[Sheppane]

" But if you consider that you're in the process of undoing several decades' worth of dysfunctional conditioning, it makes sense that it takes time."

Never thought like that  . Always just gave myself a hard time for being so slow to "see it" clearly or questioning whether I always claw back into denial. Thanks CatoftheCanals

[Dandelion]

"Ok for now I think I will continue to do NOTHING until i feel like doing something"

^^ great words Sheppane.  I find this  approach helps too.

As time goes by it seems all to get a bit clearer, though it's slow, I'm 6 months in.

[Sheppane]

Thinking more about this one. The self doubt is SO strong right now - ST continues and I'm trying not to cave. I feel like I'm trapped in a game I never wanted to play. I feel such a mix of anxiety , fear , hypervigilance and so physically triggered all the time. Old feelings of guilt that this is " my fault". I know it's not but that is such an old wound.
I made a small breakthrough with the self doubt though. I needed to keep telling myself to stop obsessing and questioning myself as I was making myself worse. Though I couldn't help it. I needed to keep shouting at myself " you have done nothing wrong "!! And to try and believe that. Cos the old voice keeps coming in " maybe it's me, I'm the crazy one, I'm causing all this pain for everyone , I'm abandoning them " . Then I realised that's what I was always told- as scapegoat. It is always my fault. So I'm agreeing with these abusive messages! They were implanted there and now I agree with them. I think this is helping me to see the extent of the sickness. How to counter these messages is challenging though. I'm not sure how I reject these beliefs. But it has stirred up some anger in me because at some level I know I'm not deserving of that kind of treatment- even if I make mistakes like every other human.

I've also realised that alot of the self doubt is also connected to huge fear of what's coming next. Seeing how unhealthy that is ( it doesn't happen in other healthy relationships) is also telling me a lot about what Im dealing with here.

[Cat of the Canals]

Then I realised that's what I was always told- as scapegoat. It is always my fault. So I'm agreeing with these abusive messages! They were implanted there and now I agree with them. I think this is helping me to see the extent of the sickness. How to counter these messages is challenging though. I'm not sure how I reject these beliefs.

Once I started recognizing I had a little voice that belonged to PDmom in my head, I would just start labelling it as that as soon as it popped up. "That's not coming from me. That's mom talking." It becomes easier and easier to reject those thoughts once you realize they were never yours to begin with.

[nanotech]

Then I realised that's what I was always told- as scapegoat. It is always my fault. So I'm agreeing with these abusive messages! They were implanted there and now I agree with them. I think this is helping me to see the extent of the sickness. How to counter these messages is challenging though. I'm not sure how I reject these beliefs.

Once I started recognizing I had a little voice that belonged to PDmom in my head, I would just start labelling it as that as soon as it popped up. "That's not coming from me. That's mom talking." It becomes easier and easier to reject those thoughts once you realize they were never yours to begin with.

Me too on this one!
Radio silence since I put up my boundaries-
followed by FM
hoovering at the beginning  of
the pandemic.
The tone was friendly and 'kind' but it positioned them as victims and myself as the perpetrator - that their ST was my fault and my responsibility to 'fix'.
This was proof to me that they mistakenly  regarded my lack of contact ( this was a gentle but firm step back) as a punishment on them- which, with a little encouragement from a flying monkey would easily come to an end.
Then I would be again nicely available for  blame and shame. They were coping without me until the pandemic, but then they needed their scapegoat. I was waiting for the hoover and sure enough it came. The flattery followed by the effort to evoke obligation and guilt. 
I just medium chilled it and it fizzled.
After previous toxic conflict, it was always me who put out a hand toward reconciliation.
This would sometimes evoke a fauxpology from Nsis, things would be okay for a while ( to reward and lull me) and then the whole dysfunctional cycle would start cranking up again.
I too can now recognise and address that voice if/ when it pops up. I've developed a supportive voice ( ME) that I use to counter and silence it. I think of it like a radio I've inadvertently left on- and I can turn that off.

[Sheppane]

The tone was friendly and 'kind' but it positioned them as victims and myself as the perpetrator - that their ST was my fault and my responsibility to 'fix'.
This was proof to me that they mistakenly  regarded my lack of contact ( this was a gentle but firm step back) as a punishment on them- which, with a little encouragement from a flying monkey would easily come to an end.
[/quote]

Yes  this exactly! I am still stuck in the ST scenario. As time passes I am aware of the scorecard now being kept of all the other things I'm not doing - not arranging to meet, invite to dinner etc. Of course I'm not doing those things because of the ST but I now know it'll be used against me. So I feel I'm stuck either way.
Maybe I will call ? If they see it as a "win" so be it. Otherwise I think I stand to lose more in long term if this is prolonged. Its insane. I've not done anything wrong they will not contact me and it is somehow my fault. I feel lured into a trap if I don't break the silence. But if I do make contact I think I will just medium chill and make no reference to it. Then I wonder is that manipulative on my part though I don't think so - i don't need to fire up a conversation about the boundary I set. Thoughts ? I feel very stuck. If I wait it out it will go on and I am then stuck playing the game.