Nothing is ever said

[moglow]

My parents will tell you to your face nice things to extended family and their friends...but then behind closed doors talk horribly about them.  They never really have anything positive or nice to say...and focus on the negative things in life...they feed off of this stuff.

SAME! Mine can and will charm just about anyone for an hour or so, then the cracks start to appear. Once she decides you're her friend all bets are off.

One of my cousins had always had a near-hero worship for md, but noticed that md and her [cousin's] sister always huddled together talking and stopped when anyone came near. Cousin thought her sister was up to something/no good and stashed a voice-activated recorder nearby.

Later she found that her sister said little, while md had vile things to say about everyone around. The plotting that cousin thought was taking place? All mother, not her sister at all. Mother was playing both ends against the middle, and from the sounds of it had been for many years. These cousins cut mother off and haven't spoken to her since - she knows nothing about the recording, but claims they invented problems with her. "Shes done nothing" ... except get caught being herself.

[makingachange]

My parents will tell you to your face nice things to extended family and their friends...but then behind closed doors talk horribly about them.  They never really have anything positive or nice to say...and focus on the negative things in life...they feed off of this stuff.[/size]

SAME! Mine can and will charm just about anyone for an hour or so, then the cracks start to appear. Once she decides you're her friend all bets are off. One of my cousins had always had a near-hero worship for md, but noticed that md and her [cousin's] sister always huddled together talking and stopped when anyone came near. Cousin thought her sister was up to something/no good and stashed a voice-activated recorder nearby. Later she found that her sister said little, while md had vile things to say about everyone around. The plotting that cousin thought was taking place? All mother, not her sister at all. Mother was playing both ends against the middle, and from the sounds of it had been for many years. These cousins cut mother off and haven't spoken to her since - she knows nothing about the recording, but claims they invented problems with her. "Shes done nothing" ... except get caught being herself.

That is so interesting...they NEVER think that they are the problem.  It baffles my mind really. 

My Mother was absolutely horrible with me this past year...threatening me ...going crazy...when I put up some boundaries.  She said..."this sounds nothing like you."  She couldn't believe I wouldn't cave into her expectations, and went crazy on me...I kept telling her that if she kept threatening me and kept saying mean things to me that it would lead to no contact...she kept on saying things...and then I cut her off.

She still thinks it is me with the problem...she never will take any responsibility for the horrible things she said to me...and keeps saying..."there  is more to the story than just the things I said." 

They seem to always have some sort of excuse or reason for everything...never them though!

[Hilltop]

Makingachange, I am sorry you are also an outsider in the family, it's a horrible place to be.

My mother is not really prone to going on endlessly about other people, she does gossip and can say horrible things but she is more one of those positive smile I am always happy and chirpy and winning at life type.  She is manipulative and sly and plays games for her own amusement.  She will smile at you while she stabs you in the back.  She will take offense at something you said even if it wasn't anything and rather than say something to you she will get nasty behind your back, smearing your reputation to everyone.  In spite of this she feels free to insult me openly, like real insults directly to my face.

My mother doesn't rage at me or get angry.  What she does is say something really hurtful or insulting to my face when no one else is around and then when I get upset she will criticise me about being sensitive.  She will tell me I am difficult for having an emotion about her insult.  She will then tell other people how difficult I am, leaving out the insult part. She will be positively happy around me but then I will on the odd occasion find out that she has been complaining about me or saying horrible things about me behind my back.  I can only imagine the times she has done this and I have not found out.  If something nice happens for me or something good, a few weeks later she will have something nasty to say in an off hand comment.  She seems to enjoy seeing me struggle and enjoy seeing me down, at times she and my father have mocked me during visits, laughing at me simply for giving my mother a hug.

She will get my personal information and act all loving and caring to only then use it as gossip with anyone she comes across.  She will shut me out of the family and will not let me know real bits of information but will pass on little tid bits she doesn't care about me knowing, information is power to her.  For instance I ran into my cousin who told me she was divorced, when I told my mother I had run into cousin she asked me if cousin was divorced as I didn't say anything to her and from her answer she let me know that she knew.  Same with my sister when she was going on a huge overseas holiday, I knew because at the time I was on her FB but my mother was only concerned with how I knew, concerned with how much I was talking to other family members.  Concern as in 'oh you speak to them do you', 'oh how do you know that, how did you find that out'.

My mother has done many things to make sure I am on the outside and create little drama's between family members, she doesn't do this all the time but I feel her gossip would be ongoing especially with my sister.  My mother has actively made it difficult for my father and his sister /my aunt to maintain a relationship.

Where I am at now is that part of me is starting to not care anymore.  I think perhaps a person can sow so much discord and drama and strife that eventually you get to the stage where you can't be bothered with it.  I think about seeing my parents and at the moment I simply don't want to.  I simply can't be bothered.  I don't know if they will be normal or if they will be hurtful.  I don't want to deal with any emotion it brings up.  I simply feel done.  I don't mind sending a few texts now and then.  I do this because I don't know how I'll feel in the future so I am not shutting the door completely. Most texts are just a photo of somewhere nice I have been with a nice message. Nothing personal. In saying that I don't want to be a part of this broken family, it doesn't give me anything except hurt and pain and so I think its reasonable that after some time a person would simply give up.

I feel like I have given up on them.  I just can't be bothered anymore.  I have wasted so much time trying to have a normal relationship with them and they still act the same.  I really don't care what they think or how they feel.  If they want something different it's totally on them to fix it and yet I know they won't.  They can say whatever they want to family and everyone around them.  It doesn't hurt anymore, they have already said so much, what does it matter now what they say, my mother has proven she will lie and so with so little control over that I have simply walked away.

As for my sister, it's a shame she has chosen a lifelong estrangement but I also no longer feel I have done something to cause this.  If I did something hurtful then she could have spoken to me about it, she doesn't talk, hasn't spoken to me about any issues or anything hurtful,  not once, not ever.  It has now been 15 years so I think if something was done that was hurtful that if she can't get over it, that's on her.  If she is listening to what our mother says rather than getting to know me as a person and an adult, that's on her.  If she doesn't like me, again her problem. If she is listening to her husband who wants his family around but now ours, again her problem. Really I look at her and see her in a new light.  I have never raged at her or gotten angry at her, so if she can't be around me at family functions or events so that I have to be shunned from family dinners after funerals then so be it.  She can continue playing her role, she can have it.

I no longer feel like I am an outsider.  This is simply a silly role they have given me and they can keep it.  They can see me that way if they want to.  I plan on getting on with my own life.  They can try to talk about me but there won't be much to say, I am not around anymore.  I respect the fact that they don't enjoy me or seem to like me.  I will respect that enough to keep my distance, they shouldn't be subjected to my presence when they don't enjoy it that much  .  So I will respect that and stay away  .

Trouble is, they are simply not trustworthy.  They will be nice to your face and stab you in the back.  As soon as I am back they will resume their roles.  I simply don't want to play anymore and so I give up.  I'm sure it was fun for them when I desperately wanted to be on the inside, I'm sure it made them feel special withholding that from me.  My goodness I want out, whatever games they play, whatever they think, I just want to be left alone by them.  They can play their games with each other.  I'm out and I'm done.

[Gaining Clarity]

Hi Hilltop,

I'm sorry for the treatment you've received. My family has always made me the outsider as well.

I'm four years NC. In the past, when I did try to bring up an issue with my uNMom and uNsis, they would scream at me, and do the typical gaslighting. Then I'd get the silent treatment, which I would receive often before and after, trying to resolve issues. The silent treatment is probably one of the cruelest, if not the cruelest, tactic family could take. I spent YEARS trying to make nice, ignore it, work through, be overly supportive and accommodating, and even took responsibility for their bad behavior. I just couldn't do it anymore, especially because it also was affecting my DH and DS too.

I'm wondering if your mother doesn't respond when you bring up issues because she would then have to have some culpability in the relationship. Going to others to discuss the situation, can accomplish two things for her: one, keep her in the role of the innocent victim, and two, lay the foundation that you are making things difficult for her so if you do try to talk to any family and friends about it, they will already have been prejudiced against you.

My uNMom and uNSis also gossip and disparage others. I don't know about your mother but in my case, I think my mother and sister do it as a way to feel superior to others. I also know (and you mentioned your mother does it as well) that my mother and sister have said terrible things about me in the hopes that others will turn their backs on me.

And finally, what you said below, THIS!!!

"As for my sister, it's a shame she has chosen a lifelong estrangement but I also no longer feel I have done something to cause this.  If I did something hurtful then she could have spoken to me about it, she doesn't talk, hasn't spoken to me about any issues or anything hurtful,  not once, not ever.  It has now been 15 years so I think if something was done that was hurtful that if she can't get over it, that's on her.  If she is listening to what our mother says rather than getting to know me as a person and an adult, that's on her.  If she doesn't like me, again her problem. If she is listening to her husband who wants his family around but now ours, again her problem. Really I look at her and see her in a new light.  I have never raged at her or gotten angry at her, so if she can't be around me at family functions or events so that I have to be shunned from family dinners after funerals then so be it.  She can continue playing her role, she can have it.

I no longer feel like I am an outsider.  This is simply a silly role they have given me and they can keep it.  They can see me that way if they want to.  I plan on getting on with my own life.  They can try to talk about me but there won't be much to say, I am not around anymore.  I respect the fact that they don't enjoy me or seem to like me.  I will respect that enough to keep my distance, they shouldn't be subjected to my presence when they don't enjoy it that much  .  So I will respect that and stay away  ."

I have the exact same situation. Never did anything to hurt my sister, never got mad at her, tried to be a friend and support system, etc. When I've asked my sister what I've done to her, she responds with "This ALWAYS happens. You can NEVER get along with anyone. NO ONE likes you. EVERYONE says so." I think in my case, and could be with your sister too, that my mother and my sister's husband got it in her head that I am a horrible person. It might be so ingrained in her psyche that she might not even understand it. Just a thought.

Take care of yourself

[blacksheep7]

I no longer feel like I am an outsider.  This is simply a silly role they have given me and they can keep it.  They can see me that way if they want to.  I plan on getting on with my own life.  They can try to talk about me but there won't be much to say, I am not around anymore.  I respect the fact that they don't enjoy me or seem to like me.  I will respect that enough to keep my distance, they shouldn't be subjected to my presence when they don't enjoy it that much  .  So I will respect that and stay away  .

Trouble is, they are simply not trustworthy.  They will be nice to your face and stab you in the back.  As soon as I am back they will resume their roles.  I simply don't want to play anymore and so I give up.  I'm sure it was fun for them when I desperately wanted to be on the inside, I'm sure it made them feel special withholding that from me.  My goodness I want out, whatever games they play, whatever they think, I just want to be left alone by them.  They can play their games with each other.  I'm out and I'm done.

I'm sorry that they have ganged up and treated you this way.  Even though it is an awareness, it still hurts but in the end we know we are not to blame for their chosen behavior.  I'm sure they will find someone else to pick on.

My  widowed covertM and sister are enmeshed. The eldest, her gc son is her surrogate dh. I'm nc with Foo, five yrs now.
M's triangulation, repeating and twisting my words and story has provoked sis to put me aside. M asked why I wasn't happy, that my sister was, that I was looking for problems.  My sister, is the lost child. I did feel sorry for her is the past as she  was parentified and after getting married young to get out of the house, she had a depersonaliztion episode. She knows what M is capable of, criticizes her and manipulates  when she has to.

My gc b came back to the family  just before I went nc,  when his wife, our enstranged sil died.  Was my bff when I was a young adult.  Gc texted me last yr asking why I was avoiding everyone. I texted back with a first question «where were you for 35 yrs?» and  that it was the matriach that I mostly had problems with, repeating what NF did when she wouldn't get her way.  I know that my M put him up to that, his flying monkey.  She had me doing it with him way back.  Gc answered, ok.  She lets her kids do her dirty work, even for bdays of her gchildren,  gc texts with both names.

M is the type that forgets, as if nothing happened, swipes it under the rug and «hey, let's start over» .  She already did that to me once.  I can go on about the gossip about every single person in her entourage, critisism about one of us kids to another.  Even her dearest friend, surogate dd who is so nice and available to her.

I also stopped talking about my personal life and she still would ask about my exs'...wtf for.  She would tell me that I was secretive, like, yeah, no kidding!

She never denied NF rages and threats would darvo or gaslight.
My NF never abused her, made sure she had everything she needed and was happy in order to keep control of four kids to cover for his Absence doing his art after work.

NM told my cousin in europe that I was going to visit that She had an unhappy marriage with a tyranic dh but he always brought us, the children,  south of the border beaches for vacations.  As if that heals all wounds

You will be fine Hilltop, will find peace and yourself, free at at last

[Hilltop]

Thanks GainingClarity and Blacksheep, I am sorry you have similar stories.  Gainingclarity you wrote "Going to others to discuss the situation, can accomplish two things for her: one, keep her in the role of the innocent victim, and two, lay the foundation that you are making things difficult for her so if you do try to talk to any family and friends about it, they will already have been prejudiced against you.".  I think this is very true with my mother.  I'm sorry it's been the same for you.

I will say that I am feeling differently about it all now.  I have accepted I will not really understand all of it and I am ok with that.  I did an intentional funeral (Jerry Wise youtube) and feel that I have let go of past grievances.  I have forgiven them (not forgotten though) and moving forward I simply want to concentrate on living by my own standards of morals and values.  Any negativity is theirs and will be left with them, it is not mine to carry.  I no longer feel these relationships are needed for my life to be meaningful and whatever type of relationship that is forged is fine.

Thank you for your support.

[Adria]

I'm really sorry you are having to go through this. It is so hard and can surely leave you realing,  When I pulled out of my family's twisted games (I was the SG), my parents ghosted me right along with my siblings. I expected my parents too, but my sisters walked away without a word.  My guess is they were told by my narc father that if they had anything to do with me they would not receive their inheritance.  It's been 30 years now and I haven't heard a boo. 
You might like this video from Jerry Wise. It helped me a lot:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUvN6iXTN8Q

[Hilltop]

I'm so sorry Adria.  It is extremely hard when that happens.  Thanks for the Jerry Wise vid, I will definitely have a look, really his you tube vid's have been huge for me in being able to let go.  I got the recommendation for him here, so much helpful information on this forum.

[footprint33]

Hi Hilltop and Adria,

I never knew about Jerry Wise and just started watching his videos, beginning with the one Adria posted. This guy is really incredible and gets it. Thank you!

footprint

[bee well]

Hi Hilltop,

It makes me angry to think of how thoughtless and cruelly self absorbed some people can be, and to family at that, for no good reason. No words to describe, really.

I'm sorry your family is that way. I have tried to make sense of mine for years to no avail.

I really appreciate what you wrote, especially here:

"I no longer feel like I am an outsider.  This is simply a silly role they have given me and they can keep it.  They can see me that way if they want to.  I plan on getting on with my own life. "

Yes, they can keep that role. Your life is yours to define.

Thanks for all that you share.