Parental Alienation

[escapingman]

Since I want to gather advice on this particular subject I start a new thread.

Whilst still living together with STBX and long before I even started to think about divorce STBX started the campaign against me and my side of the family. GC started to side with STBX and got more and more against me, whilst at the same time DD refused to join them and therefor became the target as well as me. This obviously escalated when I filed for divorce and GC became very abusive towards both me and DD, putting me in a difficult situation as I could not tell her right from wrong as she just ran to STBX for protection and to come back with further abuse backed by STBX. Now STBX and GC lives with MIL and I have no contact with GC as she is being turned against me.

That's the background story, now to the dilemma. GC is not telling anyone the truth and is protecting STBX and instead saying that I am the bad one and that I caused fights and shouting in the house. For the last 6 months in the house I had completely backed off and hardly said anything other than engaging when DD was attacked. The Social Worker is now making the assumption that it was as much me as STBX that caused all the problems in the house and that I was mistreating GC. So now I am expected to apologise to GC for how I treated her, when it in fact was her abusing me and DD. When I tried to put this gently to the SW she got quite upset with me and said GC is the child so I need to accept it was my fault. How do I deal with this? I feel that if I apologise for behaving badly when in fact all I did was protecting myself and DD I kind of justify her mindset that it was me and not her and STBX. SW says GC is asking for this apology to be able to see me, in fact I know the only reason she is asking for it is because DD has asked for one from STBX for the real abuse. GC will not change her attitude and won't change her mind if she get the apology as it is just another piece in the abuse from STBX. At the same time the SW probably will blame me if I don't apologise so I am in a bit of a catch 22 here and not knowing how to really deal with this. GC is also expecting birthday and Christmas presents from me, but not prepared to see me. This is another tricky one for me, I really don't want to give her anything whilst she is refusing any contact with me, but at the same time I want to give her presents. I feel like giving her presents will make her think it's OK to treat me like this as she still get gifts.

In my mindset I have accepted I might never see her again and I am wonder how much more I can afford both monetary and emotionally to fight for her.

[Poison Ivy]

I'm sorry you're in this situation.

I don't have much advice, other than this: Don't stop giving GC presents for her birthday and Christmas. Gift giving almost always has significance beyond the monetary value of the gift. For you, stopping the gift giving might feel like acceptance of the situation; for GC, stopping the gift giving might feel like she has been abandoned by you. IMO, this isn't an appropriate time for you to be doing something that might be interpreted as abandonment.

[escapingman]

Thanks Poison, I hear you about the gifts but still unsure about what to do. I am going to think about that one.

However, I might have a break through. I exposed a lie STBX told the SW, I am not sure what the SW will do about it though. Apparently STBX told the SW she was ignored by DD and insinuated I had put DD against her building a case against me that I am the one doing PA. But in fact DD had been sending her messages that she can prove she sent so it was all a lie.

[hhaw]

You're doubt and despair will come and go...... come and go.  Let them take you.  Just sit with it.... and do nothing while it's got you.  Lean in and have it so it releases it's grip sooner, perhaps.

I think you can distill a letter of apology down to a surgical message stating exactly your position while apologizing for what you are responsible for....... without accepting blame for stbx's abusive behaviors, but then I'm operating under the premise there's no one in the UK who understands these problems or who can advocate for you and educate your SW or Judge, so that's what I got right now.  The PD's abusive treatment of you and the girls needs to be distilled down, specifically, into something non judgmental but precise and so accurate...you should lean into compassion and love for the stbx.   Referencing ONLY what the strongest evidence clearly makes plain.  If you're going to write that letter..... saying those things needs to come across like you have good will toward GC and the PD and are leaning into being helpful and non judgmental ENTIRELY and your messaging comes across in what yuo don't say, rather than what you point at directly. 

You need to leave space for GC and SW to come to their own conclusions. 

Understand, it might be a terrible idea, I honestly don't know, but expect tit for tat at every turn from stbx. 

The system was built to exact a pound of flesh from both litigants and the saying goes.... he who comes to his sense first, loses. 

Reasonable people don't go to trial.  It would be nice if the Courts got in the habit of identifying the unreasonable litigant and herding THEM toward an Agreement, but that's not how it works, IME. 

Portraying yourself as overtly reaonable, always, and asking for things people can't twist....like safety for DD  and  GC......
for only what's fair financially.....
for support in your relationship with both daughters.... and that SW best believe you're willing to support the stbx and children in having the best possible relationship they can have......
that.

Hang in there.  Crack when you need to then trust you'll come back to center.  I think you will.

The STBX is likely cracking every day and she doesn't come back to center.  That's what you're waiting for, IME.

Just like the lie stbx told about DD contacting her...... those lies and cracks in the PD's facade will continue.  Most of this battle is disproving all the negatives the PDs spin, IME.

You HAVE to remember not to judge or tell people what to do or think...no gloating.... extend compassion always for the PD and always assume a very helpful willingness to educate the people involved without making them feel incompetent... praise them when they get it rather than call them out for misunderstanding.

[square]

PI is right, straighten your tie and give the gifts.

You're not rewarding her behavior, you're giving gifts to your baby girl. You can do it.

As for the apology, on the con side is that I do not want it used against you in any way ("see, he apologized, therefore admitting to having been an abuser or some crap").

On the pro side, you could, depending on what you say and how you say it, bat the ball back over the fence.

[From Ashes]

Hi Escaping Man.

I am new to the forum world and got a lost with the short forms. I think you have a daughter and your x is causing rifts between the two of you.

I agree with the other comment to continue to send gifts etc.

From my own experience ...
My mother is Borderline. She left my dad and told us all kinds of things about him.

Scary, horrible things. I believed her whole heartily and nothing (other than years of therapy and growing into an adult) would change my mind.

I remember making up stories to back up the vision she wanted us to have of him.

I remember him sending me books on brainwashing. Calling me and I wouldn't take the calls. She hid his birthday cards.

My advice, if this is what's happening to you..

Keep a detailed, dated journal.
Continue to try to reach your child, even if they seem to hate you.

Chances are your child is very confused and being emotionally manipulated.  Their on their own journey.

I'm sorry your experiencing this. 

I saw the effort my Dad made for me. Any time he could access me he said "this will always be your home" "I will always love you no matter what"

And you know what, when shit his the fan with my mother and she turned on me... he was there. I took refuge with him. And he took me back, no questions asked.

[escapingman]

I just got the report from the social worker, and I am the one accused of PA. I just don't know what to do. How can people be so stupid.

[Poison Ivy]

I'm sorry this is happening. So maddening!

[hhaw]

You will benefit from taking a but if time and refraining from assuming you know what consequences of that report may be, ime.

Maybe it's all bad.

Maybe it's what helps you prove your case to secure a sane Agreement you can live with.

I hope you run the report by sane stable people who can help you counter and overcome.

[JustKeepTrying]

Hi EM -  My ex. turned my oldest two children against me and even now, when they know that physical abuse occurred, my children are going on a vacation with him over Christmas.  Maddening and I feel that some days I'm screaming into the void.  In my situation, they are adults and I am coming to the understanding that I can't do anything about that - it's their decision.  While GC is technically not an adult, you can't change her mind in the shost term.   Only in the long run and just breathing through it,  allowing the pain to come and go. -  is all you can do.    And it sucks.

Early on though, a few years ago, Hhaw gave me the advice to take the high road and play the long game.   I do think that is still best and while hard,  really hard, it will pay off.  Give the gifts.  Make the apology for your portion.  And there is something you should apologize for - there was for me - I didn't protect them earlier.   I didn't have better boundaries and I let it happen.  II didn't listen to myself and allowed myself to be swayed by other people.  I'm sure there is something you did - and this is so hard.  I want to scream HE HIT ME and that feels like it should be the most important factor.  Like that eclipses everything else.  But in the end, I am only responsible for my actions. so I apologize for my actions. 

As for the report, see how it goes and know we got your back.

[hhaw]

The PD will be emboldened by the report, ime.  Likely unafraid to make insane demands and push what she feels is a huge advantage on a skirmish she mistakes for the war, such is her inability to hold the breadth and scope of the situation in focus, if she ever understood it.

Despair might take you, for a while, but this report is just an opinion of someone ignoring facts and evidence, EM.

That position is difficult to hold in the light of a courtroom under pointed scrutiny, ime.

The SW is charged with more than giving her opinions.  She's supposed to sort through the facts and sum them up, sans opinions not based in facts. 

Think of questions your attorney will ask SW in court.  Think of specific evidence you'll use to discredit the report and the SW's ability to impact the Judge's decisions going forward.  All your e mails pointing out evidence to the SW will cut off her ability to deny knowledge of evidence and facts.

In a similar situation, our Judge announced the Court Ordered T giving testimony in my case was "giving her opinions" then the Judge assured my attorney it was ok to let further questioning go bc....opinions weren't helpful to the case.

Further, the Judge completely ignored that T AND left all mention of the T, her reports and "opinions" out of the FINAL ORDER......that was a demonstrative slap in the T's face by the Judge.

I think the crazy obvious bias that T had against me seemed catastophic, but turned into the blessing I needed to stop all future lawsuits by the PDs.

[escapingman]

There are factual errors and made up accusations by the SW, some of it I can prove. I am so angry about how biased she is, she is recommending unsupervised contact between DD and STBX and no contact at all between me and GC.

[hhaw]

The more obviously unfounded SW opinions might be the most helpful thing goung for you right now, EM.

[escapingman]

Ashes,

Thanks for writing that piece. Exactly what you wrote is happening with my daughter. She is making up stories, or more likely telling stories STBX is telling her about me. The sad bit is that the social worker and the judge so far believes these stories and makes them more relevant than my truthful facts with backed up evidence. I am apparently an alcoholic that drinks all afternoon, but if that was true how could I have been picking the girls up from school and driven them to all out of school activities in the evenings? I am being accused for not speaking to STBX, why should I speak to her when she verbally abuses me every time we have any communication? I have been accused of physically and emotionally abusing her, but anyone listening to the recordings I have provided can hear it clearly that it is the other way around. Why are they not basing their judgements and recommendations on the truth instead of lies that I can prove are just lies? STBX has lied to the SW about things, and I have exposed the lie and the SW just put it down as a misunderstanding. There is no misunderstanding in saying that DD never texted her to say thanks for a gift because she wasn't allowed by me when in fact SHE DID TEXT! 

I am sick of this smear campaign that is not even executed very well as I am exposing lie after lie to no benefit of myself. The way things are going STBX would be believed if she said I can fly and use that to stalk and harass her. 

[escapingman]

I have read through the report from the SW a couple of times more, discussed some things with DD and looked at clear evidence. It is so biased I am almost suspecting the SW has been bribed to write the report in the way she did it. My solicitor is very surprised she can recommend no contact between me and GC but at the same time suggest there should be unsupervised contact between DD and STBX AND contact between MIL and DD.

Hopefully as hhaw wrote, this is SO biased it might actually be good. But I am not sure yet.

[escapingman]

Have been reading through it all again as next week is the big one, I am so angry. I am shaking in anger and thinking of how let all that anger out in the face of the SW. I know I can't but she is right now the reason for all this going wrong, she is just going to move on the next without realising she just ruined my daughters life by recommending she stays with STBX with no contact with me. I hate her. I am sorry to write this but I really hate her. I am imaging so much I want to say to her, which I of course can't as that would go straight against me. But boy do I hate her, how thick and incompetent can people be. I want to tell her I wish you never have to experience an abusive partner, but she still wouldn't understand. I am so angry.

[hhaw]

You go ahead and have your anger.  Maybe scream it out.... whatever you need to do privately then find the perfect forensic T to counter and discredit SW's biased report, bc you're up against time having waited so long.

[escapingman]

I am taking stock on all this and I might just change strategy totally. I am not going to win this court case, the SW is biased and the judge will base her ruling on the report. At least I get to keep DD who is now very strong and is speaking up. The only way for me to win this is if either GC starts speaking (unlikely at the moment) or there are any further incidents (very likely if contact is happening). I am against contact, but it will happen whatever I say or do so if there are any incidents of abuse by STBX towards either of the girls this is on the social worker and the judge. I am not going to be blamed or blame myself if that happens, they have decided to despite clear evidence of abuse ignore the evidence and instead decide it is now safe. I know, and you know there will be incidents, when they happen I will call the police with no hesitation and let them do the job. I can't be blamed or held accountable as I would not be involved other than making the phone call, unless DD would call.

If I continue this fight and allowing STBX to abuse me through the court I am not sure I will survive. My stress levels are so high and I am just so angry. Last thing is that I am not even sure I could handle GC if she was forced to move back if she is still in the FOG with STBX.

[escapingman]

I really feel retraumatised by this court process and the report from the SW. I spoke to DD about it and according to her the SW is lying and is not suggesting her wishes and feelings are adhered to, but at the same time adhere to GC's wishes and feelings. In response to seeing STBX unsupervised she said she need a body camera to do that. She has said she does not want to see her grand mother at all but this is still suggested in the recommendation. I feel my only way to win this is to discredit the report, but how do I do that when the judge praised the work of the social worker in the last hearing.

This driving me absolutely insane, one moment I want to fight her to last drop of blood in the court room, and next I just want to give up.

[Rose1]

You might want to think of it as not giving up but changing strategy.

You are no good to yourself or anyone else if this whole process makes you sick. I do understand the anger, I'd be furious too. But maybe the SW has a pd too? They do tend to bond in some mad way. I always knew to avoid anyone my expdmil had as a friend even before I found out about personality disorders.

If that is the case or if she has a background with pd she may feel comfortable in your exw's presence. Totally unprofessional but nothing you can change.

If you're prepared to call the police when abuse happens, I would do just that. It will likely open a new channel through the court system you can't be held responsible for. I remember years ago someone saying family court doesn't attract the really good lawyers and that criminal court does a much better job. That referred to the US but it seems that there isn't much difference.

With GC I have thought about what you said
She is likely to be traumatised, acting out, and continue in her mean behaviour that she started before the separation. She would need a lot of therapy and time and patience. This is likely not the best time to go down that track when everything else is so stressful.
It might also set dd back to go into that situation again. GC has learnt to bully to get attention sadly, and it would take quite a lot of therapy for her to see what is going on in her life and that this is not appropriate. She probably won't take that from you but more likely from someone else she has learnt to trust like a good therapist. This will take time.
Live life the happiest and best you can and understand that bad outcomes are possibly temporary because a pd cannot regulate themselves and will at some point mess up. If they end up in contempt of court, the court system will deal with that more easily that they seem to deal with pd abuse. Sad but seems to be common.

You and dd are still learning to become yourselves after the abuse and that takes time too.  With each passing week without pd abuse (or court abuse) you will get better and be able to deal with things better. That takes time too.