So as some of you know, my dad is my UPDm's enabler. The only number I didn't have blocked was his cell to my cell. Occasionally he would call me and check in. The last call I got was early in the pandemic lockdown to check on me. He sounded very worried as we were in an area with lots of cases. When PDM walked into the room, he hung up on me. I instinctively thought he had been disconnected, and called back. That's when I realized she was there. He talked to me as if I was a former work vendor. It went something like this. "I'm no longer in charge of that, but would love to catch up. I'm busy right now, but will call you back in a bit." I guess I had hoped that he really would call me back. He didn't.
This week, in the middle of what is always a stressful week for me (they know it) and the continued pandemic stress and so many other things, I get a text from him, certainly copied word for word from an email from an attorney that they have removed me from all legal paperwork (power of attorney, medical power of attorney, etc.) and that I should shred all legal documents of theirs with my name on them because they have had them redone and removed me. I'm an only child, so who knows who is now in charge of this.
I have lost every single blood relative due to setting basic boundaries with an enmeshed covert narcissist (my mother) and the rage that followed for setting those boundaries. They must think she's a saint. I have not a single relative that are speaking to me. You can look back at my old posts, if you weren't around for the day by day stress I endured just trying to go on a 2 day holiday with my kids that didn't include her. How setting very basic boundaries like I was going to call twice a week instead of every day lead to her refusing to answer the phone on Mother's Day, her not liking the exact words of the message I left and the insults about everything about me back 20 years that came after. The suicide threats because no matter how hard I tried to resolve it, she refused to accept any responsibility and said it was all my fault.
DH responded to me after I got the text that I should have expected this if I am NC with them and he doesn't know why I'm upset. :stars: He's so matter of fact about everything. Yes, I should have expected it. I did, but I feel like I've been totally thrown away. I have no one to lean on. No friends where we live who can act as FOC. DH isn't close to his family. Every therapist I've seen in my area must have been trained at the same place. They use Bowen's family systems theory to tell me that I have to try harder and set more boundaries because you can't go NC under any circumstance because it changes the systems. I can't break the unit because it will cause my kids to eventually go NC with me over something small years from now and it will be all my fault for going NC. :aaauuugh:
I don't really have a question, but need support. I'm really overwhelmed with all of it. I knew it was going to happen but it doesn't make it feel any better.
Let me follow up by saying that I know from reading here that I don't want those responsibilities. I don't want to be power of attorney for a covert narcissist! It's just another stab. Just another rejection. They didn't have to tell me to shred anything. There are new documents without my name on them. It's just more emotional abuse.
I am sorry. Wanting something and knowing the outcome doesn't make something any less hurtful or upsetting.
I am sorry your DH is unable to support you in this. My best friend isn't either. She says similar things. I now don't discuss my NC with her.
It's frustrating that there seems to be so many of us going through this yet it's so hard to find support in real life.
All I can say is that the only way out is through. I have found that my life has become infinitely better after every hard choice I've made. Yes it's very sad I'm divorced and NC with my family. I wish more than anything I had a loving, supportive family and that I'd made a better choice in my spouse, but it is what it is and I'm doing what needs to be done to be happy and healthy. It seems like often the right choices for us are the ones that feel the worst.
You are not alone and my experience is that it really does get better.
Quote from: Sidney37 on August 02, 2020, 07:50:37 AM
Let me follow up by saying that I know from reading here that I don't want those responsibilities. I don't want to be power of attorney for a covert narcissist! It's just another stab. Just another rejection. They didn't have to tell me to shred anything. There are new documents without my name on them. It's just more emotional abuse.
Yes it is emotional abuse. Something that took me a really long time to internalize and accept is that people 100% know exactly what they are doing 100% of the time. Now I try to take these actions as another datapoint towards proving how abusive people are rather than taking it personally. My family are going to do what they are going to do, as it's my ex husband. Nothing I say or so will change that because it's 100% about the kind of people they are and 0% about the kind of person I am.
Your post had me feeling a tiny smidge of what you're feeling. I could feel that in my guts, receiving that text from your dad is a true kick in the teeth. Since he was the only one who sees what you see and would check in with you from time to time. Now? It's as if that door is permanently shut.
I have a bit of the same experience with my s-dad who goes along with my uNPDmother. This 'going along' included completely wiping away his kids and grandkids out of their lives. My uNPDm orchestrated that over the decades. It's disgusting and he went along with it. He went along to get along. Reading that your dad talked to you like a work vendor is really :stars: Makes me wonder where these men put their bollocks??
My husband is very matter of fact too. It's a tough thing to deal with, like I'm not being heard. My dh just doesn't get the fine details and emotions of a woman's mind, so I keep that stuff here on the forums. He's definitely more black and white and I just don't operate like that. I'm sorry you received that text, how terribly shocking. Keep venting, we understand.
:grouphug:
Even though you knew in your mind it might happen surely your heart held out hope that your D would not do this to you.
I am so incredibly sorrry for your pain. You didnt deserve any of this!
IME this is such a deep long lasting grief. I have zero foo also. NOONE!
I find it reprehensible that 2 different thearapists told you you "can't go no contact".
Bowens family systems theories has nothing to do with whether you 'can' or even 'should' go no contact with foo.
If they were really trained in bowens family systems then they should have both already done their foo work themselves before they could or should try to support you or anyone in foo work (which is internal seperation). THAT is part of the theory: that only someone who has done their own self differentiation from FOO can help someone else do it. And in the theory it doesnt matter if you are right next door or 1000's of miles away. Physical proximity is irrelevant. Some people get confused thinking that 'emotional cutoff' (in Bowens theory) is the same thing as 'No Contact'. It is NOT.
Here is a fantastic family systems therapist /self differentiation coach who has made videos on going no contact!
https://youtu.be/4o9g7wHb7HU
https://youtu.be/4E99mEp6Mb4
https://youtu.be/l4hRg9b_LYc
https://youtu.be/0VvuPVJhRSM
I hope that makes you feel a little better to know that those 2 therapists were giving you moral interpretations of what to do (probably based on their foo disfunctions) and did not have an 'expert theory' to back up their advice. What they told you sounds more like what estranged parents tell their adult children who have gone no contact.
Do you think going 'no contact' instead of setting boundaries would have prevented this from happening? Would you have been better off with your dad and the other foos somehow? Or just suffered less push back? (Rhetorical questions you dont have to answer unless you want to)
:bighug:
Thanks everyone. It just feels terrible even when I expected it. DH's natural state is to be matter of fact and black and white about most things. It doesn't help the situation, but his lack of emotional expression is helpful in some situations.
Peanutbutter- I was hoping you would chime in. I have seen you write about family systems theory here before. I'll take a look at those videos. Thank you!
All I can figure is that people in my state were all trained at the same university by the same professors. Several have told me that you can't go NC and how damaging it is to the family system. One even handed me several books on Family Systems Theory to try to convince me that I needed to resume contact a few years ago. My gut told me it wasn't right, but DH was there with me at the appointment and he trusted what the therapist said, because after all we were paying her as the expert. She knew the right thing to do. We followed her exact instructions and resumed contact, set boundaries, and a year later she said all sorts of awful things to DD behind our backs about us. She violated every boundary over and over again but in covert ways. She shared my personal medical information with countless people. I kept repeating the boundaries and using some version of gray rock like I was told. It doesn't work with covert narcissists who want to be totally enmeshed. By then, I was done with that therapist and knew that continuing to set boundaries that were broken and lies told to my kids behind my back just wasn't going to work.
I found another therapist after I was nearly NC last year who spent most of the appointments when she did talk telling me how bad she felt for enD and how I needed to keep that unit intact. She insisted that I could be VLC with my PDm (can't go NC, but if she gives me the silent treatment I am better off... let her do it, but I shouldn't to do family systems and all of that) and stay in touch with enD because PDm treated him the same way she treated me and I should just feel so sorry for him. I should understand what he is going through. And now here I am after making that attempt.
I need a new therapist, but I'm hesitant to even try at this point.
Ive not read any of the books so idk that is what is written in them. If so then poopoo on Bowen! :sadno:
Wow that is so messed up. What a disfunctional therapist! IMO she is disfunctional and inept!
That is so hard and frustrating the way your coping and healing was set back by this 'therapy'.
Over the years I have had some pretty obviously emotionally unhealthy therapists too. Before I realized they were unhealthy themselves I looked to them and listened to them, trusting that they knew better than I. It is a betrayal ime to seek help but recieve advice that isnt about your situation but is actually about theirs.
One experience with a female (younger than me) who was really sweet and kinda reminded me of me when I was young wanted to be like 'friends'. Very strange. She also wanted my problems with foo to match hers. So when I tried to talk about my ubpdM she seemed shocked and didnt want it to be true. She said "are you sure it isn't your dad?" And then proceeded to tell me how much she loved her mom but her dad was a drug addict whom she had a strained relationship with. Then when I was talking about being happy in my marriage she didnt think that was possibly real because she was divorced :stars:
My dad is enabling also. He is my good parent. He is the one who modeled calmness, thoughtfulness, and love (or so I thought it was love). I very recently have become aware of the facts though that it is not possible that he didnt know anything about my ubpdM's years of abuse of me. He did work third shift for most of my childhood so he slept alot in the daytime. I dont have any memories of him witnessing the abuse. BUT it was a modular home (3 bedroom) so I can no longer believe that he didnt ever hear the screaming (at best) and probably even knew about the hitting (at worst).
I am in deep grief knowing that he allowed this to happen to me. I always felt sorry for him (she abused him too) and saw us as the same : her victims. But he was an adult. I was a child. He chose a relationship with her. I was born to her.
Just before I went No Contact my enD told me in a weird convo that didnt make sense to me at the time ( i was in denial about him) but now looks alot like so many other stories, that he was leaving everything to my brother. I had never been one to think about inheritance. But I was sorta confused by what reasoning he had came to this decision. I now think it was classic get me back in my role talk. But I dont doubt that I am legally an orphan even though I havn't been notified officially.
All I can tell you is it isnt you. It is not your failure. You did everything you could to SAVE the relationships. You gave everthing you had to trying. Your parents wanted you to sacrifice yourself at the 'alter' of their selfish desires.
You have been through so much. You have been betrayed by so many. (I reread back a little ways to remind myself details of your story) All of the flying monkeys and co smearers have led to shock after shock for you.
Your therapists could have prepared you for this and should have. In spite of this you have shown strength, resilience, and continued to 'love' throughout this traumatic ordeal. Be proud of yourself. Be confident you have not caused any of this. You had no control over what updM does/did.
I'm so sorry about all this Sidney37....I can empathize and relate to having to follow your gut despite what DH, therapists, and friends say. My DH is sooooo similar. I don't think they'll understand until they experience exactly what you went through. It's too subtle. It's too underhanded, this type of abuse. And that's why it still keeps happening in this world and why it's so successful....but know that you're not alone :)
Even though you braced for the cut, a cut is still a cut, and it still hurts... :'( I feel your pain.
Stay strong and you're not alone :bighug:
Wow Sidney, I'm so sorry about your father's emotionally manipulative tactics to a. Attempt to make you feel guilty and ashamed for protecting yourself b. Punish you for no longer taking their BS.
What he did was cowardly and unloving, and extremely covertly controlling. Love is not equal to using FOG to control others!
It sounds like you are perhaps wanting a therapist to validate you, tell you what to do, and make you feel okay about NC.
I had some bad experiences with a therapist also, but there are some good ones out there.
Even then, only the individual person you are knows what you need to do in your life. I have been working on self reliance, to be okay with my decisions even if they do not conform to what others think.
I understand that your husbands response is frustrating and perhaps hurtful. Maybe it's also a blessing. It sounds like he's not willing to get overly involved in your familial drama at this point, which perhaps creates an opening for you to do the hard work 100% yourself, to grieve it, accept it, transcend it.
Perhaps you can also gain some compassion for yourself in the situation by imagining what you would think of your fathers behaviour if he wasn't your father; what would you think of his actions if this were a friends dad? Cuz to me it sounds like he's acting quite childishly and unsympathetically towards his daughter, and being cruel to you to get you back in line/take out his pain on you.
I hope this helps. Big hug!
Hi Sidney,
I hope you're feeling better and everything is starting to settle in - especially the nasty jab of telling you they removed you as POA and medical POA.
On one level, you know this is a good idea and when the dust settles, you're going to realize this is a very GOOD thing - aaaaand it probably didn't happen.
If it did - great. Kudos to them, but I suspect it's more smoke and mirrors to get you to come running.
Your dad is always going to enable your mother. Always. He'll be her lackey, attack dog, henchman - whatever she needs, he's got it and you? Well, you're just another casualty of "war" if she says so, and he won't defy her, because he made his bed and wants to keep the Eye of Sauron off *him.*
But it still hurts like hell - you felt like maybe you had an ally in your dad and you don't. You only had one in as far as it didn't make your mother mad, and he's doing her dirty work.
As much as it hurts, it's best to know where you stand with him and if you speak to him again, treat him like an enemy combatant, using only Medium Chill.
I think you'll thank yourself in expecting very, very, very little. :yes:
You wrote:
Several have told me that you can't go NC and how damaging it is to the family system. One even handed me several books on Family Systems Theory to try to convince me that I needed to resume contact a few years ago.
I sez:
Rubbish! Rubbish! Utter rubbish! Absolute rubbish! Nonsense! Balderdash! And WRONG! :thumbdown:
You wrote:
My gut told me it wasn't right, but DH was there with me at the appointment and he trusted what the therapist said...
Your GUT was the thing to listen to - and not your DH, who didn't grow up with them and really doesn't have a clue of what it was like.
DH and I both come from abusive PD homes and talk about them, and *try* to walk a mile in each other's shoes, but you really can't duplicate the emotions - especially the terror, fear, rejection, and constant hurt of growing up in your own particular mess. All we can do is *try* - but if you weren't there and didn't experience it, you really don't get it.
Vivid Imagination wrote: If it feels yucky, it IS.
And that's what I live by, more than books by somebody named Bowen, who sounds like some kind of enabler, with a motto of, "Don't upset them!" :aaauuugh:
Sometimes positive change in our lives involves removing ourselves from a toxic family system, which WILL upset everybody - that's to be expected and NOT because you're loved and cherished, but dammit, you're the scapegoat and lightning rod of hate and now they have to find a new one!
That's what the disruption is - everybody getting their noses out of joint because nobody wants to be "IT."
And now your dad is there by himself, without you as his meat shield, so he'll do just about anything she says.
In a larger family, it would be a whole juggling of positions - I saw it with DH's FOO when we went NC. BIL and Golden Grandchild were still the favorites - but his wife and their other two kids took our place as the Scapegoats. Eventually, BIL became a SG too, and *that's* when he and his wife spoke to a Priest who told them going No Contact was their best option.
The Priest isn't a T - but he made sense. If the PD IL's are so damaging that TWO adult children already went NC, they have no business being around you or the kids.
Especially the kids.
I don't know where people get that messed-up idea that your own kids are going to go NC with you - especially T's, whom you'd think would know better. :roll:
I don't think that's based in fact, at all - that sounds more like a knee-jerk reaction, to shock you back into your little box, where you can take more abuse.
Kids are like sponges - they absorb everything they see and hear, as you found out with your DD and your mom "programming" her to not get along with her brother.
What your DD saw was you, standing up for yourself and her - for the entire FOC, really - by saying NO and cutting contact to a toxic relationship. :righton:
She saw her mom have a *backbone* - and not be a doormat. 8-)
She'll learn that she can't treat you like your mom treats you - and she should treat *nobody* that way. :thumbup:
Your son will learn he's not a second-class citizen. Maybe your mom didn't say as much but trust me - he knows. :'(
So...this is just one more thing they threw your way to hurt you. Personally, I'd block your dad's number, because I really don't need more aggravation in my life. He can think he's leaving texts and messages, when they're really going to limbo - and you'll know nothing about it.
Eventually, they'll give up (HAH!) or my guess is have a "medical emergency" where SURPRISE! - you find out you ARE the medical proxy/POA, come NOW. :roll:
My best advice in this scenario is do nothing. Absolutely nothing. :ninja:
As far as you know, you were removed, so they'll have to make other arrangements - and then block the caller.
It's amazing the ways they keep trying to jab or poke us and they ways they find - you get to a point that nothing really surprises you and you just roll your eyes, thinking, "Yup. Typical."
You WILL get to that point.
:hug:
Jerry Wise quote about people even therapists reacting to our 'no contact': "they may be triggered in their feelings about their family because you are are making a step of differentiation and wholeness; that threatens them because their going: 'Man you mean someone can really do that? My parents are horrible i dont want to have to deal with that.'; they can feel fearful if you raise that" (subject)
Thanks WI. Thank you so much!
I am thankful for your experience and good advice from years ago. I started reading the elderly board when I first found Out of the FOG knowing that soon enough I would be there. Here I am - nearly elderly parents and NC, too. I read your experiences and thought that could be me one day and I should pay attention!
Not only did the message get sent by text, it was also sent to me by another email address a few hours later because I didn't respond to the text almost immediately. I didn't respond to ether at all.
This has been an issue with them. When we were in contact, I was expected to call at least once but preferably twice a day at a time that wasn't specified but convenient for them and I should somehow know when that is because I should know exactly what they are doing each day because they might have mentioned it casually the week before in one of the 15+ phone calls a week I was expected to make. If the call interfered with my job, my kids school pick up, a kid activity, or anything else, that was my problem because she wanted me to call when it was convenient for her. If she was busy when I called, she'd sigh, say something nasty about it being a bad time and hang up. Not making these calls were one of the first boundaries I set and she was furious. "Just don't bother talking to me ever again!" I was also supposed to respond to texts or emails within 12 hours or they start sending the same message in other formats until I respond. :aaauuugh: :stars:
The first thing I thought )after being stunned and forwarding the message to my husband so he could read it rather than read it out loud to him in front of my kids) was to remember that you would say that it was great that they did this. I was better off for it. It was one less thing I needed to handle with a PD. I am. I know I am. What I didn't think about is that they might not actually have done it. Ugh. That's a possibility I didn't even think about. It might have just been a way to get me to jump and call them protesting, or so they thought. I don't want to have to get calls to race states away to deal with these things.
I definitely learned my lesson about listening to my gut. My DH, after doing more reading and seeing how far they will go, finally gets it most of the time. That first time I went NC and was talked back into contact by the therapist, I went NC in a furious rage. Dh was in the hospital and she was at my house not getting enough attention. She picked and picked at me until I blew up and yelled at her. I think I would have questioned if the NC was my fault for years because I yelled at her. That's the big fail in my family. She can provoke and provoke and provoke in covert ways until someone gets upset. The person who is upset or yells is at complete fault. The provoker (her) is totally innocent. She tells everyone that she did nothing and someone yelled or swore at her for no reason. Even if people are there to see it, the provoking and button pushing is so subtle or so hurtful just to the victim, relatives agree with her.
Thanks PB. I watched 2 of the Jerry Wise videos yesterday that you posted. I'm going to watch more this week. He's really good! One was talking about preparing for NC. I can't remember his exact advice, but DH and I watched together and realized that I didn't do it the right way the first time (when I went NC in a fit of anger), but I did pretty much exactly what he recommends when I went NC a year ago. I'm not looking back this time and wondering if I did it correctly or if I made the right decision. I went NC for many of the reasons he lists as to why you probably should go NC and I followed many of the same steps in a pretty calm, thought out way by setting very basic boundaries that were walked over or raged about.
I know my kids will be better off in the long run. One of them has many of PDm's traits, so I am holding my breath and crossing my fingers that the PD wasn't passed down genetically, too. It's my biggest fear at this point.
Peanutbutter - It's interesting that you quote that part of the video. I mentioned it to DH at the time we were watching it yesterday. By chance I knew the new spouse of someone who used to be married into that therapist's family. We had actually known each other for a while pretty casually through a kid activity. We both had kids with learning disabilities and were talking not long ago about local therapists who could help parents with that sort of thing. My therapist was mentioned as someone NOT to see because her family was so "screwed up" and this person listed out all of the drug, alcohol, abuse, legal, racism, etc. types of issues that were going on in the therapist's extended family. This person knew because the families still had some contact even though this person's spouse was no longer married into that family. I could totally see my former therapist being concerned that one or many of her relatives could go NC with her and she wouldn't get to see her grandchildren. And it didn't take more than a bit of time on Google to see the family legal issues in the local news (that I don't follow).
Finding a therapist is so much harder than finding a dermatologist! The dermatologist's family baggage won't really affect your treatment for skin cancer or warts!
Hey Sidney37,
Just wanted to mention that a lot of people are now doing online counseling specifically because its not easy to find the right therapist with the right expertise. Jerry Wise is one of those therapists! He does online counseling with patients; its not cheap but it might be worth it for you to talk to him (or someone like him.) He's great and I've learned a lot from his videos.
Sydney - I am sad your parent felt motivated to send such a message, sorry you were on the receiving end of their obvious anger, and sorry they cannot see your innate gifts. I agree it is overwhelming to get a message like that. I just got one similar from my own dad last week and am still reeling.
I am sharing how I felt about my own dad's message, but I do not know how a parent can send something like that if they do not have more hate and anger in their heart than love. Love is not the motivating factor in that message. I do not take such a note lightly, but it sort of feels like the parent might. Perhaps they just did it to illicit some sort of compliance on your part. It is hard to think they would not have grasped the gravity of what they did. To be on the receiving side seems like they just shrugged while throwing a grenade over the wall at you. Internal damage has been inflicted. Oddly, they still might not be done with you and might still make statements saying they love you and minimizing their behavior or saying they did not really mean it. I cannot do the mental gymnastics to put this in a peaceful-parent package.
As their child, you deserve unconditional love. Just being born and being who you are is enough. You do not have to earn it, work for it, win them over, or prove your case to them over and over to sustain it. They missed out on knowing how great their child is. None of this is your responsibility to resolve.
Not only did the message get sent by text, it was also sent to me by another email address a few hours later because I didn't respond to the text almost immediately. I didn't respond to ether at all.
That instinct they have to both text and email you the same message because you didn't respond immediately is really something. Demanding much? Their need to be absolutely certain you received their message says more about them than it does you. They needed to be sure what THEY had to say was heard. Oh, and the fact that you didn't immediately react probably bothered them. That you haven't reacted at all is surely driving your M nuts.
I know not all PDs are the same but I can tell you the worst thing you could do to my BPDm is to ignore her. It makes her up her ante until she gets some supply. Now might be a good time to block all their phone numbers and email addresses if you haven't already.
my dad is my UPDm's enabler. ...I have lost every single blood relative due to setting basic boundaries with an enmeshed covert narcissist (my mother) and the rage that followed for setting those boundaries. They must think she's a saint. I have not a single relative that are speaking to me. ...That's the big fail in my family. She can provoke and provoke and provoke in covert ways until someone gets upset. The person who is upset or yells is at complete fault. The provoker (her) is totally innocent. She tells everyone that she did nothing and someone yelled or swore at her for no reason.
Hi Sydney37, I could have written these same words and I can sincerely empathise with your situation. Like you I have a (mostly) covert uNPD/BPD/OCPDm and an enabling uPDf. I set boundaries with them and was punished by being told by my F that I had 'caused all the trouble' and that he would never speak to me again when I tried to speak with them about their dangerously hoarded and squalid home (despite him privately telling me for years how unbearable he found it - and her). He turned on me so badly, I couldn't believe it. And then, after a struggle, I did. I finally believed, and I accepted that this is how they are. And it freed me to a certain extent. It freed me from expecting anything in the way of understanding or acceptance from them.
Your father's behaviour is certainly manipulative and controlling, and allows him to take the path of least resistance, with you as collateral. In one way it's a good thing that you won't be POA - if that's actually true; as WI says, don't be surprised if he's done no such thing, just threatened it. In Australia, where I live, I think the POA has to be informed if they are no longer required, so to speak. So one wonders if your father's for real on this little ploy. I'm also wondering therefore if it would be worthwhile for you to consider taking control of what you can and officially getting yourself taken off as POA. Is that an option for you if you don't want to be POA anyway?
As for Bowen Systems Theory, just be aware that it's had a fair bit of critique over the decades, particularly on feminist grounds. And anyway, quite frankly, even if it was the best framework going around, it doesn't necessarily mean it works for every individual. It's just what Murray Bowen came up with. There's some useful stuff in it, sure, but ditch the rest if it goes against your gut.
Also, any therapist who tells you that you can't go NC because....ooh....the system, needs to revisit their training and stop telling clients what to do. Plenty of therapists - well, the decent ones anyway - will want you to have agency to make the decisions that are best for you and your FOC. They will generally not tell you what to do, unless you specifically ask for their advice. Plenty of therapists also support NC if it's in the best interests of their clients. Plus, it should be obvious that if it's a toxic system then on what planet would it not be sensible to exit that system? Particularly when they are extremely dysfunctional and dangerous to one's mental and/or physical well-being and target certain members. NC is totally up to you, not your therapist, or your parents.And you've clearly worked out that it's best for your health and that of your FOC.
Also, while I think it's sad, as others here have said, that your father has made this threat to you, I recall thinking when my father did similar that he'd also given me important information about what he is actually capable of, in terms of sacrificing me to appease my uPDm. As they say: Knowledge is power. You know what you're dealing with, and you deserve way better than this treatment of badgering and discarding, Sydney. I think you're ready to set yourself free.
Sydney my heart goes out to you. I've had all the family go against me too and it's quite devastating at first.
I'm not devastated now, and I'm out of that FOG.
When it happened I sobbed and wailed and sobbed, but then something changed in my heart. A switch went off and another came on. It's the only way I can describe it.
My heart shifted. It felt broken, but it wasn't.
It was shaking off illusions, one by one.
I'm now NC with them and VVLC with my dad.
No more toxic family meals. No more abusive group chats. No more triangulation.
I want to say it's heaven. What it is really, is normal!
If your family have all been influenced so easily by your mother, then none of them are worth bothering with. Can you write them all off in one go? You betcha! Do you need people like that in your life? No.
S of them may come Out of the FOG themselves one day. Leave a light on, but that's all. And but don't worry if they don't. That's their journey.
They know that now you've left you've created a vacancy. They don't want to be the next scapegoat, so will deny and self -lie all the more. For their own benefit. At least for now.
Get a better therapist. Non - contact is a permanent protective measure that abused often people need to take.
I'm reading a great book right now
'But It's Your Family' ' by Dr Sherrie Campbell.
She talks about her own family. She says the first layer of abuse is the poor treatment.
The second layer of abuse is the DENIAL of the poor treatment, a fairy tale in which every family member has to collude. Hence their insistence that you remain in the FOG.
The book is all about the healing power of cutting ties.
I'm sending hugs. You are loved unconditionally by all of us on here, by the Universe, and of course by those in your family of choice and most importantly by that inner child you have who is ready to emerge- happy, strong and healthy!
🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️🍰🍰🍰🍰🍰🍰( cake makes everything better!) xxxxx
NB
If there's abuse and the abuser( s) won't stop, you keep away from it.
Then you stay away from it.
Hi Sidney37, I hope you are feeling better after all of this has gone down...
Based on something you wrote in your first post, I wanted to say, I read somewhere recently that threatening suicide if someone doesn't do what you want is the *ultimate* form of emotional abuse and control. If your M did such, she was willing to escalate to the worst form of abuse possible to keep you in her supply....just looking at that on paper for what it is says a lot.
And the fact your F can't see that for it's terribleness....awful. I'm so sorry. You deserved better relatives growing up.
I want to chime in to agree with that sentiment. Right on. Threatening suicide is saying that YOU are responsible for their choices, their behavior, and even their very existence.
Agreed too about the threatening suicide. It is emotional abuse.
I had a toxic ex boyfriend who used to do this regularly, to keep me with him, and to keep me being abused by him.
It finished (I'd had enough) and surprise surprise, he didn't kill himself.
They say it to try to press our guilt buttons and to try to control us.
Hi all. Thanks. I'm feeling better and worse all at the same time, I've been emailing telehealth therapists to find one that is a good fit, so that helps and feels like I have some control over it.
I'm not sure if I was specific even in my original posts about the suicide threat. Here's a longer explanation. Earlier in my process of going NC, I was vague or made the description just different enough not to be caught here. Now I no longer care if they find me here. What can they do to me if they do?
Trigger warning : suicide threat with description
Back when I was trying to go VLC and then NC, PDm sent me and DH texts and emails one afternoon that enD was going to shoot himself in the head and it was all my fault for not being "kind" to them. If I would talk to them this wouldn't happen. Kind was the word i kept using to and about her. The things she said to me weren't "kind". She turned it on me because i wasn't giving her the daily phone calls and total enmeshment she insisted on. She described In the text and email that he had a gun to his head and it was all my fault.
DH and I called them immediately and found out that he really did put a gun to his head 30 minutes to an hour earlier. The whole situation was resolved by the time she sent the messages and he was outside doing work on the lawn or house. I spoke with him. Told him if this happened again that i would be calling 911. They flipped out at how mean that was to them for threatening to call 911.. They weren't mean for what they did to me.
He claimed he did it because she wouldn't stop harassing him and yelling at him about me and my decreased contact with her. He said it was her fault that he made the threat. I had been talking to him multiple times a week and he was lying to her about it. He felt caught in the middle. He had spoken to someone for help about the situation and PDm was picking and picking relentlessly at him to tell her exactly what he said to this person and exactly what this person said to enD. He couldn't take her constantly yelling at him about me not talking to her and her demanding to know the exact details of his conversation and it resulted in the threat!
He's really not able to have a conversation with anyone without giving her exact details or there are consequences. I get it. She doesn't tell anyone they can or can't do something but there are consequences. She expects to know everywhere you go, everything you think, everyone you talk to, etc.
The worst part is that I had a boyfriend commit suicide when I broke up with him years ago. I spent years in therapy learning not to blame myself. She knew this and didn't care.
So that's the suicide threat and the reason I can't go back to having contact. It was the last straw. I tried to have contact with him for a few months after , but he posted pictures of my kids on social media with exaggerations and untruths about why I was VLC and saying i was keeping my kids from them. His church friends took screen shots of the posts and posted it themselves. I had to contact the company to have the pictures and lies removed.
Ah heck, that's awful. The threat, the fact that he went that far, all of it. I can't believe your M would blame you, when it was clearly her fault. But then, pwPDs are often irrational.
You did the right thing, both in telling them you'd call 911, and in going NC in my opinion. An attempted suicide/ threatened suicide is ridiculously damaging, and when added to your past experience, it's beyond unconscionable.
I'm so sorry this has been a part of your life, and that you're having a hard time now. The therapist thing is facepalm worthy. I hope you are able to find one that can help you on your road to healing. And I do hope you can find healing, and peace.
I'm sorry you've been through so much. I'm sending hugs ❤️
PS I think when they talk about 'kind' they meant they want you to return to being 'compliant.'
It's gaslighting.
You ARE being kind.
Being kind is calling 911 when they've indicated an emergency. But they don't want that!
I had to tell my sister that too. She's threatened it on and off for years. It kept me enmeshed with her for decades.
Then I started reading about NPDs. I put up a boundary and told her that I would call emergency services if she threatened that again. She upped her game and wailed that she would be sectioned. I told her that I would have a duty to inform emergency services, it was that simple. Some more whimpering followed.
Then, no more threats of that kind.
But it was the last straw for me too -I couldn't risk her swinging back to her old form. Far too stressful.
So I'm NC with her now. 4 years of peace.
I'm so sorry, Sidney - and your parents sound like truly horrible people, *knowing* what happened to you in regard to your boyfriend, yet *CHOOSING* to bait and goad you in this manner. >:(
I really hope there's a special place in hell for people like that.
Oh yeah - you used the word "kind." I had the word "busy" thrown back at me like a brick, because that's what I kept telling Didi when I wouldn't give her the level of enmeshment she demanded. :roll:
I saw it for what it was and really didn't care. She could have said anything she wanted - all she did was seal her own fate and if she hadn't died, I'd have been NC.
Your father is absolutely reprehensible - you are NOT his sacrificial pawn and if he can't handle her, he needs to get help, not threaten suicide in a manner *he knew would affect you and be triggering* to *enable* your mom's agenda. :aaauuugh:
She may have even suggested it to him - who knows? But he didn't threaten/try to eat his weight in worms or sit outside in the sun until he fried like bacon, turned the color of a baseball glove and got melanoma (I'm trying to keep it a little light :upsidedown:) - he used the *exact* manner he knew would prompt a VERY pronounced, visceral response in you. :no:
UnBPD Didi was bad, but in some ways, I think unNPD Ray was worse - because he knew what he was doing and chose to hurt a little girl to make his wife happy. Then he chose to hurt a young woman to make his wife happy, and could only hurt me with words when I was an adult - all to make her happy, because that's just what nasty, scrappy junkyard dogs like Ray do - there's too many years of conditioning and no, I don't excuse it. He still had a BRAIN and *free will.*
I cut him NO slack - if he was unhappy, he could have come up with his own solutions instead of taking it out on me - and your father is the same.
If your father was sick of your mother's yapping, he had OPTIONS - even in a pandemic. :yes:
Things got a bit more difficult - but weren't impossible. If your father needed a way out, or an ear to listen, he'd have found it.
If, for some reason, either of them get through to you and throw out another suicide threat, CALL 911 - even if you suspect it's complete BS. :yes:
Some of my earliest memories involve Didi threatening suicide - many of ways weren't realistic, but when you're a small child, you don't know that and you freak, panic, cry, beg and console your mommy not to do that - mind you, this was often after she'd beaten the hell out of me for nothing or over-reacted to some "look" on my face and turned herself into a victim for hurting me. :stars: :roll:
I'd wind up in hysterics consoling her and begging her, promising to be good, make her boss listen, make Ray listen - anything! - I'd do the impossible - and THAT all stopped when I finally got a real bed, IRRC.
I was FIVE. I slept in a crib until then. :blink:
I was going to be in kindergarten and I overheard them talking. They were concerned I might say something about it - and I think that lit a fire under Didi's butt that I could possibly say something about her threatening to kill herself at least once a week, just to provoke some kind of emotional reaction out of me that she could *feed* off.
She'd offhandedly mention killing herself as I grew up, but in that way you know nobody means, "If it's a choice between waiting in line at the DMV or killing myself, rather kill myself."
Not a danger. Poor taste, but not a danger.
And she'd still come after me like the wrath of God over nothing, but she stopped threatening to kill herself.
But when Didi got older and started losing her grip on me (boundaries ROCK! 8-)) and I refused to take her to play Queen for a Day because Ray had a pacemaker put in, she wailed, "Oh, oh! I don't know what I'm going to DO! I'll drive off a bridge! That's what I'll do! I'll drive off a bridge!" :dramaqueen:
Now, what I *felt* like saying was, "Hey...drive off the bridge after you're done visiting Ray." :evil2:
But what I DID say was, "If you EVER threaten suicide again, I'll call 911 and you can explain it to them. " :ninja:
Dead silence.
I said, quite angry - and starting to remember why that rankled so damned much - "Do you understand?"
Crickets.
I said, "This requires an answer. Do you understand?"
She roared/snotted, "Yes, MOTHER!" :dramaqueen:
And she never did it again - that's the important part. Once you call them out on it, it loses its effectiveness as a weapon because it's no longer a dirty family SECRET - you'll be involving the authorities, who will NOT be as cavalier as your parents!
You deserve FAR better than these "parents."
Be well. :)
:hug:
WI, this: She roared/snotted, "Yes, MOTHER!" Someone really needs to find whoever publishes the script they all read from and beat them with it. :)
Sidney, what you describe is so dysfunctional, familiar, and such a perfect example of PD projection. Your mother badgers/harrasses your father into making a childish/dramatic show of threatening to kill himself to make her stop. (Because as an enabler, he has no boundaries and can't say, you know, stop it) and then she turns around and blames YOU for it. :stars: Richard Grannon has this excellent video where he said that living with a PD is like being in a gulag where the guards come around and beat you with their rubber hoses every day, but while they're doing it they say 'Ow! Why are you hitting ME?'
My M would have done exactly the same thing to my dad, except he had already died so she spread the badgering around to everyone else (including my H). She'd just work her way through the phone book and dump all her nastiness/self-pity on whoever picked up. They really both are so toxic and I"m so glad you have finally gotten away from them and are getting some peace.
Thank all. WI, I remembered that story about Didi threatening to call 911. It was in my head when I told them what was going to happen. I knew from reading here that I was doing the right thing when the words came out of my mouth. She flipped out, screaming to my dad in the other room about how terribly i was treating them by threatening them. How dare I threaten to call 911. :stars:
It is exactly like being beaten by someone who asks why you are beating them. She blames others for exactly what she does sometimes within seconds of doing it. When i told her that I wasn't going to continue to talk to her when she spoke to me in an "unkind way" and then didn't, she accused me of holding a grudge.
Of course she did. She holds grudges for years. Last year when I was starting my NC process, she mentioned a trip she was taking to see a relative. For one day of that trip She was going to have to see an old friend of that relative. She went on and on about how she hated him. I found out that she has only met him once, 40+ years ago when he was young and barely out of school. He attempted to play a practical joke on the relatives who were his close friends and inadvertently embarrassed my easily embarrassed grandmother. So my NPDm has hated him since. She's convinced he upset grandmother on purpose. He's now old and quite ill. She didn't care. She hated him and didn't want to see him for the few hours he was in town. :stars:
I had no idea how awful many of these situations were when knee deep in them. Typing them out makes me realize how toxic they are.
Sydney37 - I am so sorry for what you have been though - and so grateful that this forum exists to give us space to cry and seek support. We all need it because it seems the outer world has not yet received the education about the extent of psychological abuse and the effect of personality disorders in familes.
I am so proud of you for caring for yourself and breaking the pattern by keeping yourself and your family safe. This is such a great example to your children. I would feel exactly as you did after receiving that message from your parents. I too have a set of parents similar to your mom and dad. My mother is overtly abusive and my dad continually sacrifices his two daughters to her, knowing what she is. I can't stand it.
I hope you, with time, ca look at it this way: your parents revealed themselves to you at their absolute worst. You need only walk away and work on a safe and peaceful, hopefully happy life. You are SAFE because of your strength. I am so proud of you.
I know this is hard but you are so better off without these people anywhere near you and your family.