Parents becoming grandparents - advice?

[morpheus]

I'm wondering if anyone else has experience with a PD parent becoming a grandparent for the first time and having to keep that situation in check.

My husband and I are expecting a baby, who will be the first grandchild. My mother is a narcissist, and just for context I have decided to continue having a relationship with her but I'm working on putting up some big boundaries, and I use "medium chill" with her as much as possible. I'm still pregnant but she has already done a myriad of inappropriate things regarding the baby (for example, she CHOSE A NAME – wtf – and she constantly says she gets to give the baby the first bath because she "called it," stuff like that). My mother acts like the baby is her own, and she believes that she's going to do tons of babysitting, like I'll just drop my baby off at her house multiple times a week. She doesn't know that my husband and I have decided not only will she not babysit, but she's not allowed to be alone with the baby ever; she must always be supervised by one of us because we can't trust her. The problem is that it's basically impossible to tell her that rule explicitly because she will just have a thousand tantrums and try to get revenge on us. I'm trying to do it quietly, like by consistently saying "thanks, but we don't need a babysitter right now, I'll let you know if we ever do," etc.

It's been very hard for me emotionally because I have serious FOG going on (I feel pressured to let her babysit because I feel scared, obligated, and guilty), and every time it comes up, I get deeply sad and angry that I have to deal with this in the first place, and it's so unfair that I can't rely on a supportive mother to help me care for my baby.

Does anyone have experience with drawing boundaries around your PD parent's interactions with your own child? I'd love to hear what worked for you.

[moglow]

I didn't have children, but have seen a number of these play out. First, I'm so glad you and your husband are on the same page with this! It's hard enough with joined forces, would have been unimaginably worse if one or the other of you didn't see things that way.

When my brother's daughter was born, he told me in no uncertain terms that she was never to be left alone with mommie dearest - we knew how mother had been particularly with me and didn't' want to risk her visiting same on the next generation. We held to it come what may, but as it turned out mother wasn't all that interested in her grandchildren any more than she had been with us. Deeply self absorbed, but felt appearances mattered more than actual relationships. So ours all worked out, until mother turned into poor pitiful her who no one visits. Well no. she never built or cared about those relationships ...

I get your mother's excited but this sounds way over intrusive, if not flat out disrespectful to y'all. One thing you might want to start now is limit conversations about the pregnancy, due dates, birthing options etc. All of that is yours and you can share - or not - as you choose. She can hold her assumptions as hard as she wants. My best advice is to hold firm to your boundaries. No means no. Polite and friendly, no. You don't have to explain or justify anything you choose to do for your child. All the tantrums would only make that a harder No for me. She can assume and want what she wants, but at the end of the day that's still your child. You birth baby [without granny in the room!!], you name baby, you bathe baby etc. unless/until you offer otherwise. Your baby. Personally I wouldn't blame you [and would probably suggest] if you not even tell her until after baby has arrived.

I'd suggest no unplanned/unannounced drop ins for her. I'm kinda that way with any and everyone, but not everyone thinks that way. To me it's rude for starters - she doesn't know if baby or all of you are sleeping, if it's a bad day and you're all miserable, if you've already been overloaded with visitors and just don't care to entertain. Would she push to stay with you after baby comes home? Please say no. Y'all need that time together without whatever narcissistic drama she might play out.

I guess it comes down to, what's *your* relationship with her like?

[morpheus]

You birth baby [without granny in the room!!]

haha this is a big one!! I'm letting her visit us in the hospital, but she won't hear a word of it until several hours after the whole thing is over, and my husband is ready to play bouncer just in case she somehow finds out I'm in labor and shows up 

thank you for your input! It's really good to hear that someone else has done "no alone time" with a grandparent

[moglow]

We know best what we experienced with them - all the promises [or pretending otherwise] in the world doesn't change that. We couldn't do a whole lot for ourselves as children, but as adults it's our responsibility to protect the vulnerable as well as ourselves. Yes, she may be different with a grandchild. I suspect you have no reason to think otherwise or you wouldn't be here. Regardless, you have a responsibility to yourself to take the keys away from or disable the steamroller. 

[Starboard Song]

I'm wondering if anyone else has experience with a PD parent becoming a grandparent for the first time and having to keep that situation in check.

Does anyone have experience with drawing boundaries around your PD parent's interactions with your own child? I'd love to hear what worked for you.

Learn from my fail.

When my son was three, we had already expended lots of energy on a simple rule: our toddler was not to be given soda, ever. At a Thanksgiving meal we all had ice cream for desert. My MIL uncorked a 12-ounce bottle of root beer from the fridge and poured a couple ounces over his ice cream. We took that away and threw it out, and served him a fresh bowl of just ice cream. The result of this altercation was a door slammed in our face and three-month silent treat.

Here's the lesson part: the silent treat ended when my FIL intervened. He wrote a serious letter that said has always proven to be a responsible mother, blah-blah-blah, and she only wanted to have loving relationship with her grandson, blah-blah-blah, with no "preconditions" or "ultimatums."

Another decade would pass before we went NC. Back then, we wrote a conciliatory letter back, stressing how much we loved and respected them, and repeating our insistence on a couple of simple parenting rules: things like giving our three year old soda. It all got swept under the PD rug and we moved on.

If I had it to do over again I would call a spade a spade, with words like this: "An ultimatum is 'the last word,' and as the boy's parents we absolutely have the last word. We expect and deserve your attendance to our word. Your wife has been reminded over and over of simple, pretty normal rules: her request for no ultimatums is denied. A pre-condition sounds pretty ugly, but is nothing more than a condition. And indeed, I have a condition for all those who wish to care for my son: they simply must be willing to cheerfully accept my simple, common rules for my child. It is a firm pre-condition to unsupervised visitation, as it should be. Now, I know your wife feels hurt and angry. I'll say all kinds of nice things to help her over that. But when those words are done, my preconditions and my ultimatum stands. And FIL, never again do that: never again characterize my parenting with ugly pejoratives. It is bullying behavior and it will not work in my home."

We laugh that if we knew then what we know now, that conversation would have sped up NC by a decade.

But I am not so sure. If we had always known what we know now, we'd have erected barriers even earlier. We'd never have let MIL give my son a full Easter basket, as if she were the mother. There is a whole category of that type of nonsense. When untrue or unkind things were said, or snips at our parenting were offered, we'd have politely challenged them on the spot: never to persuade them we were right but to demand their attention to our standards. Most PD people can maintain most good relationships. I don't know what would have happened if we had trained them from Day 1, but I wish I could run that experiment.

Start. Right. Now. Make a list of things that are none of your business: their judgment of you, their opinions. And things you'll never tolerate: them breaking certain parental rules of yours or whatever. And things that rightly fit in the grandparent-discretion category.  Decide right now that you both will take a firm line defending your boundaries. And STUDY DE-ESCALATION. If you cannot be kind and supportive as you enforce boundaries you are already 2 steps from NC, perhaps.

And I wish you so much good luck.

[moglow]

     Allllllllll that! Pretty damned impressed with the ice cream fracas. I'd imagine the silent treat was actually welcome, not the punishment they intended it to be. Things like that are exactly why kids aren't left alone with some grands. Repeated "s/he is allergic/can't have xyz" and they do it anyway "but don't tell mom and dad" - and you know if they're doing it with you right there, they're doing worse when you're not.

Fact is, nobody dreams of keeping children from grands and vice versa. Just like with everyone else in the world, you have to decide what's in the best interest of your children.

[morpheus]

Start. Right. Now. Make a list of things that are none of your business: their judgment of you, their opinions. And things you'll never tolerate: them breaking certain parental rules of yours or whatever. And things that rightly fit in the grandparent-discretion category.  Decide right now that you both will take a firm line defending your boundaries. And STUDY DE-ESCALATION. If you cannot be kind and supportive as you enforce boundaries you are already 2 steps from NC, perhaps.

I definitely needed this – thank you!! I can't believe that reaction over a no-soda rule, which is one of the most reasonable rules you could possibly have (and not at all difficult to follow...)

[Andeza]

Oh yep, been there, done that. Okay, so the experience was pretty rough. It actually ramped up significantly the bad behaviors my uBPDm had displayed beforehand. Maintaining a relationship with her at all became untenable with all the moaning and negativity about not seeing her grandchildren. We lived across the country, and the US is a BIG country! It's not like we were going to pop over once a month to say hi! Especially when we'd get the whole "You never come visit" "You never call" blah blah blah. We went No Contact a couple of years ago and it's been peaceful on that front since.

Now. uPDMIL. That's another story. She behaved very well, minus minor infractions, for a couple of years after kiddo was born. But I started noticing favoritism. She favored, at least to my face, our son over her other two grandkids from DH's sister. This felt very wrong to me and I would snort and tell her "You don't get to enjoy one over the other you know, they're ALL your grandkids." "Yes I know but..." and then restate her original opinion. Due to this and other things I felt the days were numbered... As far as DH was concerned she was already on thin ice for abuse he suffered growing up, and her behavior toward him, as we learned, had not actually changed but rather been buffered by not living together. She fell back into it when we lived with them for a while, because... pandemic. Ugh. Infantilization of a grown man with a family and his own company. It was pretty absurd.

When we moved out and went to live halfway across the country, she lost it. She turned abruptly and completely into a waif. First she constantly begged us not to go and claimed it was a poor area, a dangerous area, etc etc. As though we lacked the judgement to discern these things? No trust in our abilities as adults or parents right there. Then she was crying for video calls every single week. I get missing the grandkid. I do. But calling all the time and texting and continuing to lay on the guilt and beg us to move back and asking for pictures almost daily, is just excessive, especially for people already on thin ice. They were a long day's drive away. They could have come down every three day weekend if they wanted, but now we're NC with them too. DH tried to draw boundaries around her behavior. Setting limits on how often she could ask us for contact, and trying to keep his enDad engaged in all contact so he would know the stuff she was spouting, and it all blew up. Game over. DH doesn't play.

So you have to decide. I your boundaries are stepped on, what are the repercussions for that? What do you do if she ignores you? Do you reduce contact further? Do you cut out certain holidays? Do you cut contact altogether for a season or forever? You need a gameplan going into this what it will look like.

[Starboard Song]

I gotta say, this thread is my main jam.

You know, we decided during our pregnancy that MIL might cause a little stress in the delivery room. Things were....... changing..... with her. So her and my FIL both came in for a brief visit during labor, and then were asked to please wait outside. It was 13 years later that she wrote about being "unceremoniously" kicked out of the delivery room with no explanation.

That's another now. I am all like, "really?!? No woman has to ever explain -- not in the least -- why they seek or exclude your company during delivery!" These are things I want to scream now. But when you go NC all that release is foreclosed. It is at the heart of my discomfiture with NC.

So promise yourself this, with these people, and with everyone in your life: never go to sleep three times in a row with anything like this on your mind. Never let it build up. Because people all the time get divorced from non-PD people after letting things build up. Love can die away and friendships can whither, because we let things build up. If you commit to kind honesty with everyone, and protecting yourself with your boundaries that you do, you'll be more relaxed, more fulfilled, and more loved. Except by those unwilling to accept your boundaries.

Come to think of it, make sure to study Boundaries properly. Boundaries are never about controlling others. They are an expression of what we will and will not do, or engage with. They are a sort of morality. They can be enforce without resorting to nuclear options. They needn't be announced or stated, but they can be. When anyone becomes destructive of your reasonable boundaries, it is time to consider changed circumstances. Boundaries are an act of generosity and love, for we must protect ourselves and our ability to thrive for all those people who care about us and enjoy having us in their world.

There. Done. Off my soapbox.

But I mean it: this is the time. Do it right. Do it strong. Do it kind.

[Cat of the Canals]

I get your mother's excited but this sounds way over intrusive, if not flat out disrespectful to y'all. One thing you might want to start now is limit conversations about the pregnancy, due dates, birthing options etc. All of that is yours and you can share - or not - as you choose. She can hold her assumptions as hard as she wants. My best advice is to hold firm to your boundaries. No means no. Polite and friendly, no. You don't have to explain or justify anything you choose to do for your child. All the tantrums would only make that a harder No for me. She can assume and want what she wants, but at the end of the day that's still your child. You birth baby [without granny in the room!!], you name baby, you bathe baby etc. unless/until you offer otherwise. Your baby. Personally I wouldn't blame you [and would probably suggest] if you not even tell her until after baby has arrived.

I'd suggest no unplanned/unannounced drop ins for her. I'm kinda that way with any and everyone, but not everyone thinks that way.

I don't have kids (yet) but my brother does, so I've witnessed it as an outsider. My NPD/BPD mom has always been VERY engulfing. She's intrusive, overinvolved, has an opinion on everything, and thinks she should always have her way. When my first nephew was born, she kept repeating to people at his first birthday party how it was like "having a crush" because she just wanted to know where the baby was and what he was doing all the time. I would have predicted this would continue throughout my nephew's childhood. A borderline obsession with him. However, as a few years have passed (he's almost five now), things have changed in ways that have surprised me.

On the surface, she still projects the Grandmother of the Year persona. The reality is quite a bit different. My brother and SIL actually do ask my parents to babysit from time to time, and more often than not, PDmom sends enDad to do the job by himself! That doesn't mean she's not her same old intrusive self when she DOES spend time with the grandkids -- she has had multiple tantrums when my nephew wanted grandpa to read him a story instead of her or when my brother has been explicit about certain boundaries -- but I do think the initial novelty of it has worn off, and she sees babysitting as a "chore."

I also think there's probably a bit of almost reverse psychology at play going on... if she weren't permitted to babysit, she would complain about not getting to do it. But since she's ASKED to babysit, she seems set on finding an excuse to get out of it...

No matter how it goes, it's all about boundaries, and I think you're smart to start thinking of what they'll be NOW. And I totally, whole-heartedly agree on setting a "no impromptu visits" rule. We had this issue with my PDmil. It was a hard enough habit to break without kids. It would have been 100 times harder with them.

[morpheus]

I also think there's probably a bit of almost reverse psychology at play going on... if she weren't permitted to babysit, she would complain about not getting to do it. But since she's ASKED to babysit, she seems set on finding an excuse to get out of it...

Ugh this is so annoying because I've already gotten the same thing!! Long before we made the no-babysitting rule and were trying to figure out how we're going to afford daycare, I thought my mother could help us out by babysitting one day a week...but she wouldn't. If we actually need her to commit to helping, suddenly she's too busy with her own life. 

[Leonor]

Hi Morpheus,

Congratulations!!!

Now, new lovely loving mama, I am going to share some mommy hen wisdom with you. Cluck cluck !

You are not her daughter anymore. That phase of your life has come to an end, and you are embarking on a new, awesome, breathtaking experience ...

You are about to fall madly, heartbreakingly, head-over-heels, deliriously in love with the most precious, gorgeous, sweet, funny, adorable little person you have ever laid eyes on in your entire life. Your heart is about to swell to five times its size and still the love will seep out of your heart and your eyes and the pores of your skin!

This kind of cosmic upheaval, though, is physically exhausting. It's a major transition, even though you, like so many of us - and especially those of us on this board- may feel like it should be, if not easy, then at least do-able, as if creating another fully dimensional human being, from the softest hair follicle to the cutest pinky toe, were some kind of errand to be taken care of between the grocery shopping and the dishwashing!

It isn't. You're about to be sat straight down on your kiester, and again, and again, and you're going to be frustrated with yourself and panicked that you can't do it, whatever it is, and you're likely to be completely bewildered how is it possible to be ecstatically enamoured and unbearably irritable at the same time. And not have the energy to do anything but sit there and wonder what the €#@ is going on.

THIS IS HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE. Life is sitting you down on your behind because you are supposed to be sitting down and adoring and nurturing and bonding with your baby love , not trying to Lean In or Handle It or Get It Right. Oh you can try - you will, we all have!- but the harder you try, the more your butt will hurt when Life plops you right back down on it, where you're supposed to be.

So how in the world are you going to fit your mom in all of this?

You aren't.

You can't. Not if you want to do right by Baby. Not if you aren't willing to offer Baby up to the altar of dysfunction and disorder and abuse, where your mother is waiting for you to hand Baby over. Not if you want to stop the cycle and give Baby nothing but love and nurturing and support and guidance and happy, silly, toothless baby giggliness.

Omg, but she'll be upset / angry / hurt, blah blah blah. BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! You're the Mommy now, Queen of your little castle and kingdom.  You have no time for noise and nonsense.

This is where new handsome Dad comes in. Frankly, he doesn't have a lot to do for the first year or so. Oh it's nice that he'll walk the hallways, or change diapers, or give bottles. But mostly he'll be in your way and making you annoyed, and Baby will adore him until it's hungry sleepy itchy time and then only Mommy will do. The two of you, Baby and Mommy, just won't feel "right" if you're not in each other's arms for the first couple of months anyway.

So mostly new Dad is feeling slightly grossed out over the whole birth thing, and a little left out and at sea for a good while afterwards. But he is also feeling VERY PROTECTIVE of Mommy and Baby, and very strong and loving.

He is a perfect candidate for gatekeeping. He's the Man with the Plan, who should be in charge of schedules (you won't know what day it is), and visits, and appointments. He's the guy who's bouncing at the door: hey, hi, bring lasagna, no, sorry, she's napping, yes, please, is that the delivery we ordered? He's the one who can stand up to your mom: "No, I'm sorry, we're not having visitors, I'll let her know you stopped by." He can even check your messages for you. "Thanks for the offer, we're good, take care!"

Do NOT let your mom into the hospital. Just don't. You are going to be in recovery, for God's sake. You're delivering a baby, not a pizza. You'll be a mess, you are not going to be in any mood to entertain. Tell the maternity ward nurses, they are magical angelic creatures put on this Earth to feed you ice chips and pat your hand and fluff your pillow. And they don't want any b.s. near their new mommies. Have DH tell the nurses, No visitors. Period.

Then once you are settled and comfy and home and showered, you can consider scheduling a visit. Visits should ideally last no more than 20 minutes with people who bring you useful stuff like onesies and baby wipes and Preparation H and lanolin oil. People who will see you in your DH's T shirt with your hair a mess and tell you you look beautiful and your baby is perfect and then GO HOME.

So DH can text mom to say if you'd lije to stop by we can have you over from 11 to 11:20 goodbye. And that's it.

She'll pitch an absolute fit, but this is like the boss fight in the old video games. Sooner or later, it's going to be Mom vs Grandma, because she wants to control you and dh and baby for the rest of your lives, and you're the only one who can put an end to it. You can win right here, right now, and put it to rest once and for all.

Start by asking DH to paint that picket fence bright white, and the three of you enjoy your lovely little family inside your lovely little home!

Cluck cluck 

[Starboard Song]

You're delivering a baby, not a pizza.

[Danden]

I had my mom in my life for the first few years after my first child was born.  Then less so after my second pregnancy, five years later.  Unfortunately, I also had her in the delivery room the first time.  I agree with everyone who said to make your boundaries clear.  She did all the things with my kids like disregarding my rules, because I "didnt' know enough" about caring for my own kids.  She also talked smack about me and my husband in front of my kids.  She also threatened to report me for child neglect because I wasn't doing things her way.  I realized that if she, as the grandmother, and with her manipulative ways, were to actually do this, the police might reasonably believe her, or at least investigate.  So that would certainly be upsetting.  I decided I need to stabilize my own emotional state and my own family, and part of that is to be able to live in peace without fear.  Part of me wanted to have the happy extended family, so that is why I let her in.  But eventually I realized that this wouldn't work and I chose to prioritize my own family over hers.  I came to believe that, in time, she was capable of turning my own children against me, undermining their confidence in me.  She had already done it with my father and my sibling, and tried to do it with my husband when we were engaged.  So all of these things were a red line for me.  I still remember in the delivery room, near the moment of birth, she had a kind of self-satisfied, smug look on her face.  I have seen that look when she feels she has something over someone else.  I think it was because the baby was born with the cord around her neck and had to be given oxygen.  I think she thought the baby might not survive and that gave her some feeling of superiority?  Her first child died in childbirth and maybe she thought the same thing would or should happen to me?  No body should have that feeling or memory when their child is born.  I echo what other people have said.  Boundaries! 
 

[morpheus]

Leonor, I'm so in love with your response, I want to print it out!! THANK YOU 

[morpheus]

Danden – wow. I am SO sorry that happened to you. No one should ever feel that way, especially after just giving birth. I can certainly empathize because I've seen looks of satisfaction on my mother's face when I have been somehow hurt or in danger, and that is incredibly messed up, to say the least.

[Cat of the Canals]

Just remembered that I have a phrase locked and loaded for any unsolicited advice from the PDs: "I know you're trying to be helpful, but we aren't taking suggestions at this time." To be shortened to, "We aren't taking suggestions at this time." and repeated and often as necessary.

[moglow]

Or, "Thank you. We'll take that into consideration." NOT but it sounds nicer than my immediate response of "no f'ng way." 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Liketheducks]

Hi Morpheus....and congratulations!   

Learn from my mistakes.    Was deeply in the FOG when I was pregnant with our only child.   My mom was in the delivery room.   Was NOT helpful at all.   It became about her having difficulty watching me in pain.   Seriously.....   I totally understand how it would be hard to see anyone you love in pain.....but this needed to be about her.   

I ended up with an emergency C-Section and was mildly relieved when it was just me, my husband, and the medical professionals in the room.  (Red flag #1).   If I had it to do over again, I would've had bigger boundaries.   At the time, she was my "stable" parent.   Both of mine, I'm certain - though not a professional nor would either of them get therapy - have some form of NPD.  Dad was overt, mom is covert.   

She brought me home from the hospital.   At the time, our dog was dying and my husband left to attend to him.....(Should have sent mom).     And, she did stay with me for awhile....but it was less about caring for me and more about her bonding with our son.   We were also in a tiny studio apartment at the time.     It was a lot of "you're doing that wrong", "I'm hungry", "did you start the laundry"....."Is he latching properly?".   It was less than helpful and caused me more stress trying to keep peace.    We reached a point when I was starting to get my feet under me again, and a REALLY great friend offered to take in mom one night before her flight home.    Actually, my mom suggested that I try it alone one night.   I was recovering from the c-section and trying to figure it all out.    It was a beautiful night for my husband, me, and our new son.   Just relaxing and chill.     My mom started texting immediately after she left about how she'd NEVER do that HER mother....and how badly SHE felt.   

YOU.ARE.THE.MOM.   YOU.GET.TO.DECIDE!!!!

Actually, having my son made me SEE so much.   It was hard to reconcile how I parented and felt and tried for our boy, vs what I experienced from my mom.   My dad was obviously abusive...and when you grow up in that environment you find a "stable" parent.   My mom wasn't stable.      We are VLC contact now.   

"Thank you for your suggestion" (While ignored), "Must have been rough" (when hearing labor stories), "I welcome discussing that another time, but today is about celebrating his" (insert wonderful life events for your kiddo).  Unsurprisingly, she wants to discuss all my wrongs when we gather to celebrate a birthday of his or graduation.    And, any other time, it is crickets.   

Take care of YOU, momma.   You've got this.   You're going to find your momma bear and rock it.

[Amadahy]

Congrats, Morpheus! 

Not only does the novelty wear off with Nmoms and grands, my Nmom began trying to turn our sons against us when they got older.  That got her a big ol' NC for a while.  It would have actually been easier all around for a big ol' NC forever, but that's each person's situation and choice.  In any case, try to think of what's going to bring you the greatest sense of peace and joy, not what will pacify her.  (Isn't it sad we have to train ourselves to do this?)  I wish you all the best and grieve with you that we couldn't have moms that could validate and enjoy us and our little ones.  xoxo