Manipulation of self and daughter

[chowder]

DH once again made a derogatory comment at my expense in front of DD at dinner table.  When I responded, he blew if off as a "joke."  The dinner/mood was not the same after that.  DD comes up to me later and asks "Are you through being mad at Dad?"  He's always been the cat's meow, and the kids don't see what I see.  I should not be in this position, and neither should DD.  DD spent the night with us before going back to her place.

The next morning DH apologized to me privately for what he did the day before.  I told him I would like to see him apologize to me in front of DD, since she saw it all.  When he started his speech to her (rather than a simple apology), she pushed back, not wanting to get involved.  DH and I then had a blowup, and he told me to get the F out of the house.  When I went to say goodbye to DD, she pushed me away, upset at being drawn into things.  I then got a hotel for the night.

When I did not return in time for dinner, DH did not reach out to me, but called DD asking if she knew where I was.  He had not tried to reach me at all.  He immediately got her involved with "not knowing where Mom was."  This is manipulation, because now he got her upset with me too.  He should not have called her before calling me.  The phone records bear this out - DH called DD at 7:17 pm that night, got her involved and upset with me, and DH did not reach out to me until 4 pm the following day.

Now DD is upset on many levels, and I apologized to her and told her I take responsibility for the way I responded.  She doesn't accept that DH should not have contacted her and alarmed her before contacting me.  She's upset at something she never should have known about in the first place.  I see this as DH manipulation.  I told her he never should have involved her further, to that extent.  DD actually called *me* manipulative and low for suggesting that, and says I'm blaming him for everything.   I found myself short on responses to DD, because anything I said might be construed as playing victim or blaming.  I told her he should not have made the comment in the first place, and then we would not be having this conversation.  She's still upset that I left, and refuses to see the timeline of phone calls or any wrongdoing on DH's part. 

In addition to DH's derogatory comment, it's the fact that we had an agreement not to make those comments.   DD said yeah, maybe he shouldn't have made the comment.   She only sees the comment part of it, not the entire history.  I told her it goes a lot deeper than that, with being willing to violate agreements and boundaries, even in front of others.

What a position to be in.  The fallout continues - it has turned out to be quite an expensive "joke."

Thoughts?  Thank you in advance.

[notrightinthehead]

Chowder, this sounds so sad and messy. I am sorry you are in such a confusing and impossible situation. It seems to me that you are trying to control what others, your h and your daughter, think or do respectively. That's a no win situation. Remind yourself that you have no control over what others think or how they behave. You can only control how you behave. So how about you take a step back. Focus on what you think. Focus on what you want and need now. And how you can give that to yourself. Not your husband. Not your daughter. You.
Your husband and your daughter will think and behave as they choose to. But it's up to you to decide how much of this you are willing to tolerate and when you will remove yourself from the situation. Or whatever consequences you consider appropriate and healthy for you.

[Rebel13]

But it's up to you to decide how much of this you are willing to tolerate and when you will remove yourself from the situation. Or whatever consequences you consider appropriate and healthy for you.

I so agree! And I know how hard it is not to get caught up in thoughts about what other people are saying and doing, and how much easier everything would be if they would only behave better!

Take care of yourself, chowder! You don't have to justify, argue, defend or explain (JADE). You can ask for what you want from others, decide what you will do if you don't get it, and then follow through. You can walk away from unproductive conversations. I wish you the best!

[bloomie]

Yikes! What an unexpected turn of events. I am so sorry as this has to be hurtful on so many levels.

It is a terrible position to be put in for a spouse to speak of us/to us in a derogatory manner both privately and in front of others. It hurts my heart for you to be put in this position.

I only see two options when something like this happens. Excuse yourself from the conversation and address it privately later or address it calmly and firmly in the moment. Exercising our boundaries and  living out our boundaries under challenging circumstances.

When we force someone who didn't intend, or possibly even think about, acknowledging their poor treatment of us to do that with our kids/family members it almost always is going to stir things up further and possibly force side taking, ime.

Unintentionally, you may have pushed your daughter further into the middle of something she doesn't understand, doesn't know the context of, and probably doesn't want anything to do with by insisting your husband apologize to you in front of her and then trying to offer context for the reason this was such breach that you felt you needed to exit the home for a while.

May I gently say... stating your case by detailing the time of calls, etc., to your daughter has to be really uncomfortable for her and she may not see all of this in the same light you do. Further putting your connection with her at risk.

If you can find a way to pivot back to the issue of the agreement having been broken with your husband and maybe give this a cooling off period before you say or do anything further it may help you regroup.

I have long held the view that my adult children are wise enough to, over time, see both myself and their father pretty accurately having lived up close and personal with us both.

Do they see everything and know the long history of certain difficulties that may explain certain responses better or shed more favorable light on one or the other of us? No. And that has been, and will continue to be a conscious choice because in a long marriage with a disordered partner, there are patterns and experiences, agreements, etc., that are complex and highly personal.

Do they know enough to have some context and understanding of some of the struggles we have had and continue to experience. Yes. Finding that balance and giving space for our adult children to, over time, determine their own opinions and views based on our observable behaviors is what has worked best for us.

How are you doing today?

[chowder]

Thank you, everyone, for your wise advice and feedback.

Bloomie - thank you for asking - today I'm doing pretty much low/medium chill with DH.  We had a long discussion last night about how far the fallout from this has gone.  I feel, after all this, that if he hadn't made the comment in the first place, all of us wouldn't be here.  He says he takes responsibility for his actions, but not for all this fallout.   

As for DD, I did not get into too much nitty-gritty with her or cite exact times, etc. (I cited the times in the post, but not with her.)  Rather, it was the discussion of she never should have been involved to that extent in the first place, and DH should have called me first.  She does not see DH as being the catalyst.  After 36 years, I am the lone ranger as far as seeing what he does and the promises he continually reneges on...which I guess is the way it should be as far as kids not seeing that.  I just do not appreciate being the only one taking it on the chin now, when he was the one who violated the boundaries.  I feel like I was set up.  He can't just run roughshod, apologize later, and then sit back and watch from the sidelines.

I have decided to back off, and told DH that I am not partaking in travel plans that we were about to start making.  I don't think it's a good idea to make further plans when things are so rocky.  There have always been boundary violations, and now there are boundary violations with consequences.  I also told him I want to do nothing for Mother's Day, which he keeps trying to sell me on.  My feeling is that things are toxic right now, and I would certainly not want to invite DD over for dinner after what happened.   I also do not want to go out anywhere with the three of us awkwardly sitting across from each other, being nice for the moment.  I would be waiting for the other shoe to drop.  I do not trust this man.

I also feel that as long as things with DD are not on the mend, DH and I will not be okay, either.  I do hold him responsible for putting us all in this position in the first place, acknowledging that my response added to it.  My gut is that he wants to drive a wedge between DD and myself and be her pal, based on past history.  He says he wants to work things out between us regardless, and I say no, you caused this, you live with it too, not just me.

Right or wrong, that's my feeling right now.