MIL never let us have a marriage

[roughdiamonds1]

Nothing you've said gives the impression that your husband has any desire to know the truth. He seems to be in complete denial and very lost in the fog. I suspect there is very little chance of him taking it onboard in any constructive way, even if you did tell him.

Perhaps flagging your concerns with a couples counsellor before you started sessions would help if you were able to get him to agree to go with you? It might have more weight if it came from someone other than you?

I guess the thing you've got to keep in mind is your ongoing relationship for the sake of your daughter if nothing else.

Knowing that It seems to be a narc/golden child dynamic, you can educate and empower yourself on how these things usually go, and at least be ready for what is likely to come. Full projection is a nightmare to deal with because it really messes with your head, but if you're expecting it to come, it's easier to sweep it aside for what it really is.

[p123]

OMG Larlie you are a saint!
I cannot believe what you have put up with and you are STILL looking to find a solution. I think 99% of us by now would have made husb make a decision me or her by now.

I can't believe some of the stuff on here - its crazy. Trouble is MIL is never going to change I dont think. Will husb change at all do you think?

Not sure if I could cope to be honest but good luck to you.

[Llie]

Hmm what about if I just send  YouTube links That clearly describe the golden child dynamic.  Would he still not get it?
Lol p123 your post made me giggle. I know I have invested a lot in this relationship and I believe de could be a very happy little family. People on the outside really see us as an ideal little family but we are not on the same page and he blames me for not being together. Sometimes I do feel like is it me who's thinking is abnormal or exaggerated but then I think no it's not. I've held on because my H is also very kind and caring and does t have all those little flaws that all my friends complain about about their husband. And also because I kept thinking of the both is us are okay why would I let a third persons mean behavior split us up. But now it's not even about MILS behavior but his. Mil used control/blackmail (you won't be my son anymore) to get him to do what she wants and now he is doing the same 'follow me or I'll leave u.


I'm really getting tired now

A cultural factor is also an important factor here we come from a culture where it's not abnormal to live with the in-laws. Also the 'the man is the head of household/decisionmaker' thinking is very much alive. But to me this has t got to do with that but the MIL being how she is.

[yellowdaisy]

Larlie, I'm sorry you are experiencing these incredibly frustrating and confusing mind games, especially during your pregnancy and during the first moments of your child's life. I can relate. It was during these moments I was the most vulnerable and emotional, and it's awful, new mothers should have peace and support surrounding them. I feel for you.

If you are able to, I suggest getting into some sort of counseling or therapy for yourself to help deal with the stress and sort through the "crazy" talk. It seems your MIL is an extremely disordered woman and IME, my uPDMIL is also in her 60s and would play the card of "I've changed now!" whenever she wanted to try to suck me and my fiance back in (especially after LO was born) She too tried relentlessly to come between my Fiance and I and it never stopped. She would act "better" for a short time, but then go right back to the abuse. She has never changed and 99.9999% likely will never change.

As for your H, he seems to be super enmeshed and riddled with fleas. The fact that he physically moved out away from you and your DD and back into his mother's house, and just leaving it up to you whether to follow or not, is really alarming. I think he really told you right there what he wants, and it isn't for you and DD to have what you want or to even have choices.

Since your H seems to be really deep in the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) with MIL, I think trying to fight against her or trying to get him to see reality will only be setting yourself up for more gaslighting and mind games. I think it would be good for you to focus on yourself and drop the rope with H and have him either figure it out on his own or not. This is what I had to do, I had to acknowledge the fact that he might never "get it". It was only at this point that I truly started to feel better and more free. It was also at this point that my Fiance was only left with him and his mother, without any triangulation going on or focus being on me. This was when things cleared and he had the opportunity to see his relationship with his mom. Take yourself out of this game your MIL wants to play (because that is truly what this is to her) because this isn't a game to you, it's your life.

Keep posting, we are all here for you.

[Llie]

Thank you yellowdaisy for sharing your story. I am sorry you had to go through that. After your H got to see his relationship with his M, did he then 'get it'? And did you continue your relationship?

I feel lonely at times because everyone can listen to your story and feel for you but not really be able to help you. My H won't listen to anyone either. I think it's best the way you said yellowdaisy to take a step back.

Some part of me feels guilty. If I had figured this out sooner I perhaps could've convinced him to go to therapy together while we were still on good terms with each other':
The golden child of a narcissist parent often goes on to become a narcissist him/herself if they don't 'get it' and that would be very sad for him as well as for my daughter

[hhaw]

L:

When you speak about your GC h, do so with compassion.

Try to list facts, without judgement,  and resist using mental health terms like GC,  Narcissist,  and emotional incest,  bc you can be punished for it by listeners, IME.

If you simply list facts, while allowing the listener space to come to their own conclusions and judge for themselves, they'll be more likely to see things your way, IME.  You want to avoid getting punished for telling them what to do, think or feel.  You esp want to avoid demanding them to do so. 

Just....
dropping all expectation, after relating facts, is a good way to think about it, IME.

Of course, you have your dear baby girl to include in this, and  want very much for your husband to return to you both.  To be the father you know he can be.  To re join your family...... you want to avoid saying a bunch of negative things, IME, but you listen to your intuition. 

You have more information about this than anyone. 

Did you speak to your brother and sister in laws about the situation?

[yellowdaisy]

L:
Try to list facts, without judgement,  and resist using mental health terms like GC,  Narcissist,  and emotional incest,  bc you can be punished for it by listeners, IME.

If you simply list facts, while allowing the listener space to come to their own conclusions and judge for themselves, they'll be more likely to see things your way, IME.  You want to avoid getting punished for telling them what to do, think or feel.  You esp want to avoid demanding them to do so. 

Just....
dropping all expectation, after relating facts, is a good way to think about it, IME.

I agree, I think this is a good tactic to have when dealing with a situation where you could potentially be accused of being the manipulative/abusive one.

Larlie, to answer your questions: I did continue the relationship with my H. I honestly think I got super lucky though (even though it was hell either way), he kind of knew all along that his mom had always made him feel "icky" growing up, but would run to her during his adult life whenever she called due to the FOG. He did not like the enmeshed part of the relationship with MIL, but never knew how to describe other than her being "needy". He was young when we met and his childhood was extremely sheltered, so he was in the phase of his life where he was wanting to get out and get away. He moved hours away from MIL for college and I think the distance helped him separate from her. When I was pregnant he moved in with me and that's when things really ramped up with MIL, there were still lots of times where H would get confused about who to believe. At one point he was convinced I was the PD one. It was super hard and we would not still be together if H hadn't have started therapy. And what got him into therapy, was letting him hit rock bottom and telling him I was going to take our son and leave. It was his idea to get therapy. He originally went for issues with himself (his fleas) things that he didn't like about himself and impacted our relationship negatively, and through therapy was when he really began to see MIL for who she was. Prior to therapy I had been trying for years to tell him who she was. He didn't get it until his therapist worked him through it, bc it explained where the behaviors he didn't like about himself came from. So all of a sudden, click! He had the "aha" moment. He still has moments of getting mixed up and being triggered by MIL, so in order for us to live in a nontoxic, healthy way we do not see MIL anymore. This is difficult and painful for H to deal with, but he decided it is what's best.

So I guess what finally got H to see reality, was letting him decide to see it for himself. He had to decide he didn't like the life he was living and the person he was becoming and he had to decide to do something about it, or lose everything he had (his home, me, our son) and end up back home with his mom. It did not matter how many discussions, fights, arguments, begging, pleading I did or proof I showed, he didn't get it until he decided he wanted to see it for himself. It was really frightening for H to come to the realization that MIL didn't "love" him properly, that she probably only sees him as an extension of herself and a pawn to play a game with.

I totally get feeling lonely, wow did I feel SO incredibly lonely going through this hell. No one really gets it unless they've been there and even if they have been there, there usually isn't a direct way they can help. I'm glad you've started posting here, I wish I would have started sooner and gotten more support. You're already doing what you should be doing, thinking of yourself and getting support. That's my biggest regret is not focusing on myself and son more, I was so wrapped up in the drama and mind games, I nearly lost myself in the process. And I lost so much time with my son.

I'm still with my H and we are doing well, but if I had to do it all over again, I really don't know if I would choose to.

[PeanutButter]

I agree with the latest advice given to you by HHaw and seconded by yellowdaisy.

Maybe if you could stick to discussing a short list of behaviors you are no longer willing to accept from him or mil and behaviors you hope to see you and he doing in relation to parenting your daughter going forward. Each time you speak to him repeat this to him.

I also think using psycology language will not change his thinking but be used against you.

As roughdiamonds1 mentions counseling for yourself is the best step towards emotional health you can take ime. I did and I still do!

Ime in addition to therapy I turned my focus to searching rigorously to learn new ways of thinking on, reacting to, and regulating my emotions in order to gain control of my outcomes in relationships and my life experiences.

I also researched every aspect of disfunctional families and the damages that the adult children of face.

As I learned I moved my focus inward to healing my wounds and changing me into a more authentic person. The Bowen family systems theory and jerry wise videos are outstanding for this working on myself.

[Llie]

L:

When you speak about your GC h, do so with compassion.

Try to list facts, without judgement,  and resist using mental health terms like GC,  Narcissist,  and emotional incest,  bc you can be punished for it by listeners, IME.

If you simply list facts, while allowing the listener space to come to their own conclusions and judge for themselves, they'll be more likely to see things your way, IME.  You want to avoid getting punished for telling them what to do, think or feel.  You esp want to avoid demanding them to do so. 

Just....
dropping all expectation, after relating facts, is a good way to think about it, IME.

Of course, you have your dear baby girl to include in this, and  want very much for your husband to return to you both.  To be the father you know he can be.  To re join your family...... you want to avoid saying a bunch of negative things, IME, but you listen to your intuition. 

You have more information about this than anyone. 

Did you speak to your brother and sister in laws about the situation?

thank you for this hhaw, I think I really needed this. Dealing with being hurt and disappointed, and anger sometimes as well and trying to make sense of things, I needed someone to remind me of this and speak about compassion.
H told me he doesn't want me to speak to any of his family members as this is between him and I and that he doesn't want any interference. Hedid say no one in my family wants us to divorce. But even if his siblings disagree with him, they won't take a stand because eventhough he is the youngest he has always had the final word, even when they see his decisions causing LT harm, they will give their opinion but no one will go against him. I have learnt this in the past 3 years.


Yellowdaisy I am very happy to read you are now doing well. I am happy your H got Out of the FOG. and put his family first.


Peanutbutter thank you. I agree the only thing I can control is my own reactions and  thinking. And for now we are just blaming each other but that doesn't help anything. I want to move past that. I am now gaining knowledge about what I've experienced and behaviours i saw which helps me understand what I was/am dealing with and that helps me be more compassionate as well

[blacksheep7]

A cultural factor is also an important factor here we come from a culture where it's not abnormal to live with the in-laws. Also the 'the man is the head of household/decisionmaker' thinking is very much alive. But to me this has t got to do with that but the MIL being how she is.

Larlie,
I'm so sorry that you are going through this.   You have been given great advice and support here.

IMO the cultural factor is very hard to break and I think you know that but that being said I agree that you must not put up with that behavior which is very enmeshed and toxic and has been ingrained for generations,  your mil being the Matriarch and your Dh  has his role to play.

It will be an uphill battle for you And all worth it. You seem to be a strong woman that will not back down to those outdated practices.  You are worthy of happiness and it is your turn to shine with your family.

Look up the resources that are available for you in your community or town which will difinitely help you in this difficult relationship where family rules.

Take care and protect yourself and your dd.
Stay strong.

[PeanutButter]

 

Altot of times I fluctuate with my sadness and madness emotional states while im processing a conflict.

We will be here for you any time you need to connect. Even if you want to just vent it's ok. Anger is a normal human emotion.

Don't forget to hold compassion for yourself also.

[Llie]

I feel sorry for my H. Because he has a good heart. I also believe his blaming me and being angry with me for not following is him acting out. He is directing anger at me that in essence isn't directed to me but to the injustice of him M but he can never take it out on her.
I also feel sorry because he is a target and he didn't choose to be the target. I have a nature that wants to help/save people but this is beyond me I don't know/think I can 'fix' this

[PeanutButter]

 IME your feeling is probably correct. It may be misdirected anger.
His anger is understandable considering what mil has done too him and continues to do to him.



What Happens When Anger Is Misdirected?
When anger is misdirected, it's focused on the wrong person or source. Believe it or not, instances of displaced anger occur more often than most people realize. Situations and things are not always what they appear to be, and sometimes, it can be challenging to see beyond the smoke and mirrors. This is why it's so important to be aware of the situation and cognizant of the factors involved when you're feeling angry.

Displaced anger is dangerous because it can alienate the people who have a positive impact on your life. Furthermore, when you displace anger, the actual cause of your anger often goes unaddressed, which can cause emotions to fester and explode at a later date and time. This can be very dangerous and rarely ends well. Misdirecting anger never solves the problem, but depending on the circumstances, it can make things worse or even create new problems altogether. For this reason, it important to avoid displacing anger.

Manipulation of Misdirected Anger
There are many reasons why someone might misdirect anger, but in the darkest of circumstances, people are sometimes manipulated to direct their anger toward sources that do not deserve it. Nine times out of ten, the person pulling strings is the true source of the anger. However, when someone is angry and unable to look at things from an objective perspective, they may be more vulnerable to manipulation from others.

The best way to avoid being manipulated into displacing anger is to keep a cool head. Manipulators and individuals who seek to turn people against others prey on confusion and emotions. When you're angry, this can be challenging, but you have to push yourself sometimes. Being aware of the situation at hand, including which parties are involved and the roles that everyone plays, is an excellent starting point. It's also helpful to consider what someone's motives may be in various situations.   https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/anger/the-danger-of-misplaced-anger/

[Llie]

Very helpful post Peanutbutter, thank you!

[Adria]

Llie,

At this point, I would probably throw the ultimatums he gave you back at him (in such a kind and calm manner that it will make his head spin) and shut things down for awhile.  Don't explain any further, don't argue, don't get sucked into their drama.  They are both trying to project their dysfunction onto you, thus leaving themselves blameless and justified.

Maybe put up boundaries such as; you will talk with dh 20 minutes a week, or whatever seems to work for you to not get sucked back into their sick relationship games.  You will always end up holding the bag and being their pawn if you stay engaged.  Maybe if you let him sit with Mommy for awhile and play it very, very cool on your side, acting like it isn't affecting you even though it's killing you, he will see things from a different perspective and realize what he's given up.  And if he doesn't, well then you are already half way there.  The great thing about putting up boundaries is it gives us strength, and once that strength comes, it keeps growing.  This may be a game of, "He who cares the least wins."  I wish you all the best. Hugs, Adria

[Llie]

I am in a lot of distress. we had a serious talk today and he wanted to know If I'll move back or not what my final answer was and I said no. He didn't want to hear anything else, why or why not. He is going for a divorce and wants to have his rights as a Father to take the baby once a week while he is living with his Mother.
I don't want him to take her there

[PeanutButter]

 
Oh Llie im so sorry! Im so proud of you for staying strong.
I would make him take you to court.
Do not give him his rights without a court instruction to do so. Do not give him an amicable divorce. He has abandon you his wife and child.imo
Is there any way you can get legal assistance?
He is legally wrong for abandonment! IME
His M abused you! You do not need to let him take your child to her house.

[PeanutButter]

Try to stay calm. You dont have to decide anything immediately.

[Leonor]

Hi Larlie,

I am so so sorry to hear that your h is incapable of healing at this point in time.

I know that I have ruffled feathers on this thread by talking about sexual abuse, but I'm not talking about accusing or psychoanalyzing or attacking anyone. I'm talking as a survivor, and someone with great compassion for other survivors. I was the GC and my mother was my primary abuser, so I recognize your mil's behaviors and feel for you and your h a great deal.

Sometimes we minimize trauma like child abuse. We think people should know better or grow out of it or snap to, or something. But we know from other kinds of trauma that doesn't work well. If your h was a heroin addict who wanted you to join him in his addiction, you wouldn't think that maybe he had a point or you were being unfair. You would realize his addiction was talking and respond from a place of sobriety. If your h were a war veteran who suffered from ptsd, and he wanted you to involve yourself in his flashbacks, you wouldn't try to set limits on what you could or could not do to help him. You would recognize that he was in a state of dissociation and respond from the grounded present.

Your h is acting from a place of trauma, and it will be excruciatingly difficult for him to not do so because he is *still being abused*. He may have gotten married and fathered a child, but emotionally he is still a very small traumatized little boy. That is why he is incapable of saying no to his mom. He looks all big and grown up, but he is mentally a small child.

That is also why I would encourage you to set very strong boundaries around h and mil in regards to your baby. If your h cannot protect himself from his mother, he cannot protect you (as you sadly are experiencing now) and much less his own child. The child of the golden child *is* the next golden child. That means your baby is at a very high risk of being abused in the same way as your h, either by h handing her over or by h reenacting what he has learned about parenting from his mom.

It's not you, dear Larlie, and it's not even really vim. But just like with other traumatized people, you won't be able to talk him out of it or love him out of it or make him better. Take this time to learn about partners and coparents of abuse victims (Allies in Healing is a book my dh found very helpful), nurture yourself, get support with your own needs and look into local resources for women in abusive relationships.

You don't have to decide or do or say anything right now to anyone. Imagine all of us here standing close to keep you and your precious baby safe and warm while you tend to you.

[PeanutButter]

Hi Larlie,

I am so so sorry to hear that your h is incapable of healing at this point in time.

I know that I have ruffled feathers on this thread by talking about sexual abuse, but I'm not talking about accusing or psychoanalyzing or attacking anyone. I'm talking as a survivor, and someone with great compassion for other survivors. I was the GC and my mother was my primary abuser, so I recognize your mil's behaviors and feel for you and your h a great deal.

Sometimes we minimize trauma like child abuse. We think people should know better or grow out of it or snap to, or something. But we know from other kinds of trauma that doesn't work well. If your h was a heroin addict who wanted you to join him in his addiction, you wouldn't think that maybe he had a point or you were being unfair. You would realize his addiction was talking and respond from a place of sobriety. If your h were a war veteran who suffered from ptsd, and he wanted you to involve yourself in his flashbacks, you wouldn't try to set limits on what you could or could not do to help him. You would recognize that he was in a state of dissociation and respond from the grounded present.

Your h is acting from a place of trauma, and it will be excruciatingly difficult for him to not do so because he is *still being abused*. He may have gotten married and fathered a child, but emotionally he is still a very small traumatized little boy. That is why he is incapable of saying no to his mom. He looks all big and grown up, but he is mentally a small child.

That is also why I would encourage you to set very strong boundaries around h and mil in regards to your baby. If your h cannot protect himself from his mother, he cannot protect you (as you sadly are experiencing now) and much less his own child. The child of the golden child *is* the next golden child. That means your baby is at a very high risk of being abused in the same way as your h, either by h handing her over or by h reenacting what he has learned about parenting from his mom.

It's not you, dear Larlie, and it's not even really vim. But just like with other traumatized people, you won't be able to talk him out of it or love him out of it or make him better. Take this time to learn about partners and coparents of abuse victims (Allies in Healing is a book my dh found very helpful), nurture yourself, get support with your own needs and look into local resources for women in abusive relationships.

You don't have to decide or do or say anything right now to anyone. Imagine all of us here standing close to keep you and your precious baby safe and warm while you tend to you.

Llie,
We all are standing close and you dont have to do or say anything! We support you no matter what!