uNPDf wants to come over to pray with our family

[The Inner Light]

I have an uNPD father who has justified his behaviors by saying they're not his ideas, opinions, directives, admonishments, lectures, preaching, scolding, etc...they're "God's ways".  He lives nearby but we've been VLC with him for the last 1.5 years due to Covid.  Stress wise, for my wife and I it's been far better for us. 

My mom died 3.5 years ago and prior to Covid we had my father over for supper at our house initially two days per week and then tapering to weekly Sunday dinners to help him during his time of grieving.  After the meals we reluctantly agreed to have him lead a prayer time for our family.  He's extremely devout in his faith.  We are not.  In fact, due to Covid we haven't been to church in 1.5 years and don't plan on going back for a number of reasons.  My wife and I are of the same mind on that.

My dad called today acting very chipper and upbeat.  He went on to say that this Sunday he'd like to come over to our house and sit with our family out on our deck and pray with us.  I was caught off guard and told him that we're not ready for that.  He said that it's important for a family to pray and that he wants to pray with us.  I redirected the conversation by changing the subject.

He's "thrown down the gauntlet" with this.  He's now going to wield his big stick of righteousness since I officially refused to honor his request.  To him this is a very big deal (ie a member of his family not being as devout as he is or he thinks we should be).  I have an uNPD sister who shares my dad's level of devoutness.  They whip each other up in talking about us (spiritual scapegoats).

I don't know what to do.  He's always considered himself to be a self-appointed patriarch of our families and thinks that means he can/should direct the lives of his adult children down to the smallest detail on any subject. 

[SonofThunder]

The Inner Light,

I'm sorry you are dealing with your father in this way.  Your father is not the spiritual leader of YOUR home, but he may be of his own.  Your children will learn well to hear of you graciously telling your father that you prefer the closeness of only your own wife and kids in times like those, so "thanks but no thanks".  This could actually be a big step for you to stand firm on this at this time. 

This verse says 'fathers', not 'grandfathers'.  If the father is unwilling to instruct, then better the grandfather then nobody.  But you are willing 👍

Ephesians 6:4
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. 

SoT

[moglow]

  Priceless! Thank you, SoT, I couldn't remember the scripture.

[Call Me Cordelia]

"It's important for a family to pray and HE wants to pray with us." Impose much? You aren't doing it his way so he's going to take over? At your home? Oh man. What a setup! Leading prayer and very likely selecting Scriptures to bludgeon you with. But it's prayer so can't be rude... That sounds absolutely dreadful and to be avoided. 

A narcissist at prayer is only talking to himself, in my experience.

[SonofThunder]

Priceless! Thank you, SoT, I couldn't remember the scripture.

Sure!  My uPDf was a church attendance man (1 day a week churchgoer, 6 days a week hellion). I remember my father trying to takeover the blessing of a large family reunion holiday meal at my grandfathers house, acting like he was the pious religious man.  My grandfather was a gracious gentle man of faith and he calmly said to my dad, "when we are at your house, you can say the blessing; now everyone please bow your heads as we thank the Lord for this meal...".  Classic.

The nice thing about doing this vs coming up with temporary excuses (Covid apprehension, maybe another night, we're busy tonight...) is that it's probably permanent.  I don't recall my uPDf ever attempting the blessing again at his fathers house. 

SoT

[The Inner Light]

Thank you for the great responses, everyone.  They've been very helpful to me and I really appreciate it.

[SonofThunder]

"It's important for a family to pray and HE wants to pray with us." Impose much? You aren't doing it his way so he's going to take over? At your home? Oh man. What a setup! Leading prayer and very likely selecting Scriptures to bludgeon you with. But it's prayer so can't be rude... That sounds absolutely dreadful and to be avoided. 

A narcissist at prayer is only talking to himself, in my experience.

That last line is so true, as even prayer turns into the trophy room and to-do list for others.  Well said Cordelia. 

SoT

[The Inner Light]

My problem now is that I know trying to defend or explain my position on this with him would most likely not go well and simple responses of something like:  "We just don't want to." or "We're handling prayer as a family in our own house." will give him enough ammo to charge up his control cannon.

Narcs can't handle the idea of failure.  He has a very high stature as an elder in his church and I can't help but think that part of this is a visual failure for him that he has a child that isn't going to church and doesn't even want him (the self-appointed patriarch) to pray with them.

Some will likely understand this, but there are definite cult-like parallels to my situation; not coming from any church for me but coming from my FOO.

[SonofThunder]

My problem now is that I know trying to defend or explain my position on this with him would most likely not go well and simple responses of something like:  "We just don't want to." or "We're handling prayer as a family in our own house." will give him enough ammo to charge up his control cannon.

Narcs can't handle the idea of failure.  He has a very high stature as an elder in his church and I can't help but think that part of this is a visual failure for him that he has a child that isn't going to church and doesn't even want him (the self-appointed patriarch) to pray with them.

Some will likely understand this, but there are definite cult-like parallels to my situation; not coming from any church for me but coming from my FOO.

I fully agree and fully understand.  I grew up with a NPDf and he has past attempted to control some of my family things over time, for his own glory.  He does not any longer because of my difficult, but victorious (toolbox utilized) confrontations in which he could not win. 

Since you are correct, the answer is the Out of the FOG toolbox in the midst of the coming confrontation.  Medium Chill, noJADE, boundaries, 51% rule, all while standing your ground.  I've been there and although there is confrontation, proper boundaries with areas of your full responsibility (your house, your family, your property, your time, your decisions for yourself/family) are areas your PDfather has no real control unless you let him.

I personally believe this is a good area and reason to stand your ground and the confrontation (using the toolbox) and resulting victory for your desires will go a VERY long way for you in many ways.  Imo, you will also be protecting your family with this, as they probably don't want him over anyway since he demonstrates PD behavior.  Therefore you are their only strength in protecting them and imo, it's your father therefore your duty.

Also, do not have any confrontations with him on his property, as he has the same rights as you, regarding that which he is responsible.  Those confrontations should happen only on your property, as the ultimate boundary protection is "please leave my property" if it gets that ugly.  If he refuses, the police will escort him off, if you need to go that far, and you surely should if needed.  It sends a POWERFUL message to do this correctly. 

You can do this!

SoT

[bloomie]

The Inner Light - what you are describing here sounds an awful lot like spiritual abuse, self righteous pharisaical posturing, and religious shaming. Happened to Jesus ALL the time! You are in good company!

Your home. Your family. Your choice.

A simple 'no thank you' is gracious and enough. One time. Firmly. When the push comes... a simple - 'asked and answered' or complete radio silence followed by an abrupt change of subject can move you along. He pouts or spouts... end the conversation and let it go.

I think many of us here have experienced this kind of heavy handed better than thou, do it my way, religious behavior. Not what love looks like. Not what the fruit of The Spirit looks like... love, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control, joy, faithfulness, goodness, and peace. That is what spiritual maturity looks like.

Your father can charge his canon all he wants to. Entrance to your home and spiritual influence and authority over your family is not his to decide or choose or insist on. You rightly recognize his brand of religiosity is hurtful and potentially harmful to you and your FOO.

Standing with you as you stand your ground! Good strength and much wisdom to you. Let us know how you all are doing. 

[moglow]

Maybe: "Thanks dad. I'll let you know when I feel we need your leadership in my home." Snarky but letting him know you're not cowed.
It's rude and pushy for anyone to insinuate themselves into your personal business this way. Yes, you're his son but you're also an adult and the leader of your own family. He doesn't get to walk all over that, sorry.

[SonofThunder]

Maybe: "Thanks dad. I'll let you know when I feel we need your leadership in my home." Snarky but letting him know you're not cowed.
It's rude and pushy for anyone to insinuate themselves into your personal business this way. Yes, you're his son but you're also an adult and the leader of your own family. He doesn't get to walk all over that, sorry.

[The Inner Light]

I've printed off the sections of the Toolbox that SoT suggested.  I'm grateful there are actual examples of responses to the questions I know I'll get from him.

I'll definitely report back in this thread as this issue progresses; and it will progress.

[moglow]

He doesn't seem to grasp that he can be included in Sunday suppers without having to micromanage conversation. How about getting to know his grandchildren, talk about their interests, laugh with them?

But leading prayer out on your deck? He wants opportunity to harange you for how long, since dinner's not enough?

I wouldn't be disrespectful to him or anyone else, but you don't thrust yourself into another's home this way. No apparent consideration that your family might have other plans before/after dinner or simply not want a(nother) prayer service. By all means, offer up prayers for the family anytime he feels the call - we just don't necessarily require a prayer circle.

[The Inner Light]

He doesn't seem to grasp that he can be included in Sunday suppers without having to micromanage conversation. How about getting to know his grandchildren, talk about their interests, laugh with them?

But leading prayer out on your deck? He wants opportunity to harange you for how long, since dinner's not enough?

I wouldn't be disrespectful to him or anyone else, but you don't thrust yourself into another's home this way. No apparent consideration that your family might have other plans before/after dinner or simply not want a(nother) prayer service. By all means, offer up prayers for the family anytime he feels the call - we just don't necessarily require a prayer circle.

To clarify:  We haven't had him over to our house for 1.5 years now.  Covid.  So he hasn't been included in meals with us or anything else other than me seeing him for outdoor activities a few times per week. Covid was coincidentally a helpful driver in us going LC with him.  My wife prefers VLC and would want to go NC with him as far as she's concerned.

[SonofThunder]

I've printed off the sections of the Toolbox that SoT suggested.  I'm grateful there are actual examples of responses to the questions I know I'll get from him.

I'll definitely report back in this thread as this issue progresses; and it will progress.

InnerLight,

I am a non confrontational person by nature & nurture.  The nature is from my mother who is a gentle spirited soul.  The nurture if from the 18 years of living under the confrontational roof of my uNPDf, where I learned to not confront.

The problem with me was that there are very real and right areas of life where tactful confrontation is the correct response and I had learned not to do that.  Therefore I was a prime target for a lovebombing uPDw and became a natural 'caretaker'.   But, I have since, coming Out of the FOG about my PDw and PDf, and Out of the FOG about myself as well, been proactively working on a healthy balance of kind gentleness, unless rightful confrontation is needed.  Confrontation is very difficult indeed. 

One of the issues I had to face was that my confrontational ability was suppressed by bullies who wanted to keep that part of me down, for their own gain and comfort zone.  I have it in me, because whether I like it or not, I am also the biological son of my confrontational father and creation of my confrontational creator. 

I am tapping into that heredity, being empowered by the toolbox and confronting only when it is right to do so, in protection of myself, my loved ones, my assets and my principles.  One time after confronting my father, he later told me he was proud of me for standing my ground.  I believe it was said by him to try and PA=passive aggressively assert that I had been weak all my life to bully me by 'fathering' me as an adult.  BUT....he did recognize my confrontation and he backed down because of it.  So it was effective despite his PA attempts.

Rightful confrontation with my wife and father has been progressively easier the more i assert it where needed.  Confrontation done right and for the right reason (and with PD's using the toolbox) is a wonderful skill and tool to learn.  Again, I'm talking about myself.  If there's anything to glean here regarding your storied past, please do so. 

Lastly this the religious thread, and so again well worth mentioning that Jesus is the ultimate model for both a gentle spirit and rightful confrontation, so I suggest you be empowered by Christ in this way.  He wants you to model him and created you to have that ability.  If your ability has been suppressed like mine, possibly use this event with your father as a pivoting point, which will also, as I stated earlier, model rightful and timely confrontation for your children.

SoT

[moglow]

Ah, I did misunderstand - I thought this was in addition to. He sees this as plausible alternative to, how can you object since it's outside etc. Still, inviting himself to harangue and exert his authority over you in your own home isn't cool. Give an inch and all that.

I guess my mind goes back to that, his driving need for control etc rather than visiting with and actually enjoying time with your family. There are other ways of *inviting* prayer that aren't so forceful.

[square]

SoT, I don't think enforcing our boundaries can happen only on our own property.

[The Inner Light]

UPDATE:....I'm going to vent here if that's ok:  I get a call from him today asking me what I'm doing.  I was on the way to a store and running errands.  He changed his voice to an obvious "woe is me" tone and said that he's very lonely today ("I'm feeling very lonely today.") and he wondered if I could come over because: "I really want to talk to you, son."  He was supposed to go visit one of my other siblings this weekend so I asked him why he wasn't doing that.  He said he's deferring that visit to next week (it's out of town), his brother (one of my uncles) is out of town so he can't spend time with him and his friend is also out of town.

I'm not feeling a bit guilty about not going over to see him today, I'm feeling mad because:

> I'm not his "on call" support system that should drop what I'm doing on a very busy day with previous plans to attend to him.
>I can GUARANTEE that one of the things he'd want to talk to me about is: "Did you get a chance to talk to your wife last night about me coming over to pray with your family?" and then it'd be a circular argument and I'd be pulled so much in a JADE situation.
>Very obvious guilt-bomb.
>We've suggested, as have other people his own age (his peers) that he join a grief support group when my mom died.  He refused: "I don't want to sit around hearing other people go on about their problems" (direct quote).  It's been 3.5 years now.  The "woe is me" has been a constant. 
>Tying in with the point above, he's able bodied.  He's not in a hospital bed in a nursing home.  He's not in a wheelchair.  He's not confined to a single room.  He drives, he walks, he can be active.  He's fully capable of focusing on self-care and taking initiative to improve his own social life, etc rather than trying to rely on around four people (family and one friend).  Grief support groups work wonders for other people, but he just knows they wouldn't work for him.
> I can't help but feel on the defensive and feel that his woe is me tone and "I'm lonely" is just a ploy to get me to go over there, be a captive and have him work me over more on why I didn't accept his self-invitation to come over and be our prayer leader.
>I can't help but feel based on a lifetime of similar things that this is very manipulative.
>Someone on the "outside" who hasn't lived with someone like this would look at it and probably say I'm a cold-hearted person whose not helping a lonely elderly person in need.

[moglow]

Maybe he should become more involved with his church and related groups, less focused on himself. That and service to others have a way of alleviating loneliness.

My mother likes to preach what we should be doing for her (honor thy mother is a favorite refrain), disregarding the very basic fact that she herself failed to build those relationships. She uses the Bible when it suits her purpose.