Y'all don't let anybody kid you - choosing no contact with a parent is not an easy path. Knowing [or suspecting] they're okay with that decision isn't easy either. It's now 4+ months since I last spoke with mother and blocked her cell phone due to the incessent snarky negative texts, more recently she disconnected her home phone claiming spam calls and the monthly expense was too much. On one level I'm as okay with all of that as I can be at this point, and trying to find acceptance with it all.
My brother's now telling me about mother's recent purchases and her offers to pay for this or that, for him or others. He's frustrated with her throwing money around that she presumably doesn't have on a limited income that's not going to increase, over the top credit card spending is our suspicion. My thoughts are that if you cut off home phone because of the expense, reasonable people don't leap out there to fill that void with something new. It's not at all about the expense. I know she's not reasonable and me thinking that way is a waste of my air and energy, but here we are.
I believe it's an old school Mexican standoff in mother's mind. I blocked her cell phone due to the way she treated me, now she's cut off her home phone in retaliation of sorts, throwing that ball back in my court. It's not boundaries and consequences, my refusal to be treated that way anymore. We now have no contact because I blocked her cell, not because of her choices. And I feel guilty as a result. Dumped myself smack dab back where I just clawed my way out of. :ninja:
Why on earth does what she thinks weigh so heavily on my mind and how do I shut it off??? I get that part of it is a lifetime of training and reinforcement, the belief that I'm [and others are] responsible for her feewings. All the stuff is still ebbing and flowing through my soul like waves ...
I'm not NC but I've distanced myself quite a bit from PDmom this year. I expected a flurry of Flying Monkey activity, but there's been none. Like seriously. NOTHING.
On the one hand, I know I should be glad she hasn't escalated things. No drama = :thumbup: :thumbup:
On the other hand, I know that this most likely means I've been discarded (maybe more like semi-discarded?), which stings a little. Even though I've told myself ever since coming Out of the FOG that her supposed dedication/loyalty to me was little more than a manipulative smokescreen, it still feels like a smack in the face to realize how much that was true. How easily I can be replaced with whatever or whomever will give her the necessary resources. I mean, the reason I gave for wanting distance was that my BIL had just died. Has she checked in on my emotional state AT ALL? Sent even a simple message to say, "Hey, I know maybe you still don't want to talk, but if you do, I'm here. Whatever you need, I'm here." NOPE.
I don't have any answers, really... I wonder from time to time if there's an innate sense of knowing what we're "supposed" to have when it comes to a mother. And that those of us without that are somewhat doomed to always have these complicated feelings swirling around in our minds. Wondering why and how things could have been different if this/that had happened another way, and on and on...
Whatever it is, hang in there, moglow. Let the guilt go, if you can. It's not yours anyway. It's hers.
"Why on earth does what she thinks weigh so heavily on my mind and how do I shut it off???"
It's supposed to, Moglow. In a perfect world we'd be able to take the advice of our parents, learn at their knee, then elbow, until we're grown, knowing we can always check in for a word of advice or a tiny bit of cheering up when needed. But that's not what we get from them. We just get more abuse. Instead of advice, we have to hear about why it's our fault. Instead of support, we get a freakishly gleeful finger-pointing. Good heavens...
And some of us, because it's all we've ever known, become addicted to the drama. When we rip it out of our life there's this big, boring empty spot where they used to sit and chatter nonstop. When I went NC with uBPDm, I'm a bit ashamed to say that I missed the drama. There were times I was bored out of my skull at work and would call her just to let her ramble because I was slowly losing my mind with nothing to do. (Heck, by then I'd deep cleaned my entire office, and since work had to do with dirt by its nature that could take days.) But the more I came Out of the FOG, the more I realized I was just trapping myself in a nasty cycle. She had become my freaking hobby! :blink:
I'm not saying that's where you are, just that I feel it's a possibility. I might, were I in your shoes, make kind request to brother to leave me out unless there's a major development concerning health, living, or funeral arrangements... Then, I'd go out and get a new hobby. I took up gardening, personally. And chickens. They talk all day long but will never say a bad word about you. :tongue2:
Mexican standoff? More like the guy that's getting fired and screams "YOU can't fire me, I QUIT!" They really do have the emotional maturity of toddlers, I swear.
I'm another who thinks it may be 'I'm no fired, I quit'. Or maybe you were the only one she spoke to on that line. We got rid of ours when we realised we didn't use it any more. Perhaps she was impulsive and it was a reaction.
I use to go through stages where I would think about it non stop. Ruminate day and night and its really not healthy. I found after I read a ton of books and did a bit of healing work that I ruminated less. I still think about it from time to time. The one thing I realised is that the more time you spend thinking about them, their motives, their thoughts, there isn't any room left to be thinking about yourself and how you feel. I needed to think about my parents actions to understand the problems and really think about how I felt about it but when I simply ruminated about what they had said or done, it didn't get me anywhere. In saying that it took a conscious effort to stop it. To be aware and train myself to change my thoughts.
I remember reading somewhere that the drama becomes addictive and you may not even be aware that you are addicted to that cycle. I am not sure if I was addicted but I did have to break myself away from it. I think we spend so long thinking about it, it just becomes a normal part of our life and day. Its a game and we get drawn into playing. What move are they making, what do I do now, if I do A what will the response to that be or if I do B will that work better. You know what, it doesn't even matter what you do, it won't change the big game.
In the end you need to turn inward to yourself. Work out how you want to live, where do you find peace and do that. It doesn't matter if the other party is upset or what they say. Nothing else has worked so why not tune into yourself.
To add, my MIL went through a stage of spending so much she actually got behind on bills. Why was she spending so much. She was buying gifts for us, for our house ie decorating our house. I didn't like it, when she found that out I didn't like it, she doubled her effort to buy us multiple gifts a week, ongoing for months, I mean gifts are a PD favourite. In the end, she got behind in bills and with her credit card. That's the thing with PD's, you can't stop them playing their nonsense games, you simply have to remove yourself. In MIL's case she spent until she simply couldn't afford it anymore. I told her I didn't have room for everything she was buying and she gleefully bought more and more. I threw it all away and stopped talking to her about it, she got a gift I said nothing or a bland thank you and then I threw it away, when she stopped getting that reaction, she stopped spending her money however she was already in debt. She actually allowed herself to get into debt to get that reaction. You can't help them, you can't tell them.
I read and reread your responses last night - my headache let go and I finally got a decent night sleep, so thank you!
I know reading all that, it looked silly. Logical on the surface, because who needs both landline and cell. Why not cut unnecessary expenses? Not knowing the backstory, her oft-repeated "I don't want to cut the home phone off, end our only means of communication ..." Then her making that very decision now, after knowing I blocked her cell phone. She gets to appear the victim of mean ole daughter. And??
If she plays victim ... To who? She's deliberately narrowed her world down to a nubbin, and what others think *still* isn't my stuff. My reality is how painful and fruitless "communication" with that woman had been for years. She ramped it up the past few years with her accusations, while showing not one whit of interest or concern for me. My life has made a huge turn for the better overall and not only does she not know, it wouldn't matter. She's still the same person.
It still ain't easy. It just becoming a smaller part of me. I sure hope I can close that door in my mind eventually.
moglow,
I agree with Andeza. It hurts because it's supposed to. It's a parenting style that believes in punishment and relishes in that power.
The natural concept of family is topsy turvy in disorder-land. We grew up feeling like this :stars: again and again and again. I constantly find myself wondering why my parents use the closest people around them as punching bags? They perceive that as normal. Healthy families understand that the inner circle of family is meant to be supportive, not perfect, but at the basic level, loving. Disorder-land goes for denial, punishment and anything goes if I'm in a bad mood.
If she had not left nasty texts, you would have had no reason to set a boundary. If she had any ability to look inward and realized, oh yeah, I'm behaving terribly. Our parents cannot humble themselves because it jars that belief system that a parent is an all powerful being, and can do no wrong, and the children must respect that hierarchy and always submit to them, or suffer the consequences.
Your mother is using tools to get to you. The phones and your brother. You might have to request that he keep all information about her at a need to know basis only. She has no self-reflection to stop what she's doing and a fixed belief system that believes in punishment. You deserve to be loved.
Step back a bit and tell yourself that you deserve better and it's very unlikely she will be the healthy parent you deserve. Treat yourself with some tenderness. This is a loss and it hurts. I'm sorry. But you can find that love within and with other people. Our toxic parents though. It's doubtful they will ever realize what true love is.
Quote from: Cat of the Canals on October 27, 2021, 05:41:35 PM
I'm not NC but I've distanced myself quite a bit from PDmom this year. I expected a flurry of Flying Monkey activity, but there's been none. Like seriously. NOTHING.
On the one hand, I know I should be glad she hasn't escalated things. No drama = :thumbup: :thumbup:
On the other hand, I know that this most likely means I've been discarded (maybe more like semi-discarded?), which stings a little. Even though I've told myself ever since coming Out of the FOG that her supposed dedication/loyalty to me was little more than a manipulative smokescreen, it still feels like a smack in the face to realize how much that was true. ...
I don't have any answers, really... I wonder from time to time if there's an innate sense of knowing what we're "supposed" to have when it comes to a mother. And that those of us without that are somewhat doomed to always have these complicated feelings swirling around in our minds. Wondering why and how things could have been different if this/that had happened another way, and on and on...
Whatever it is, hang in there, moglow. Let the guilt go, if you can. It's not yours anyway. It's hers.
Thx, Cat - all of that is so true! We somehow know what's lacking and are seeking it, even though it's completely unfamiliar and we're working in a blind. Interestingly enough I watch all of you here every day and see that we learned that lesson and pass it on to each other without hesitation. My prayer is that we can get where we consistently apply it to ourselves the way we do for everyone else!
Quote from: Andeza...And some of us, because it's all we've ever known, become addicted to the drama. When we rip it out of our life there's this big, boring empty spot where they used to sit and chatter nonstop. When I went NC with uBPDm, I'm a bit ashamed to say that I missed the drama. There were times I was bored out of my skull at work and would call her just to let her ramble because I was slowly losing my mind with nothing to do. (Heck, by then I'd deep cleaned my entire office, and since work had to do with dirt by its nature that could take days.) But the more I came Out of the FOG, the more I realized I was just trapping myself in a nasty cycle. She had become my freaking hobby! :blink:
Sad but true for me as well. Mother had definite drama cycles and I participated far more often than I should. I've stretched it out further than I ever thought I'd be able to and maybe that's part of where I am right now. No contact means no drama, it's an adjustment for sure.
Quote from: Hilltop...I remember reading somewhere that the drama becomes addictive and you may not even be aware that you are addicted to that cycle. I am not sure if I was addicted but I did have to break myself away from it. I think we spend so long thinking about it, it just becomes a normal part of our life and day. Its a game and we get drawn into playing. What move are they making, what do I do now, if I do A what will the response to that be or if I do B will that work better. You know what, it doesn't even matter what you do, it won't change the big game.
In the end you need to turn inward to yourself. Work out how you want to live, where do you find peace and do that. It doesn't matter if the other party is upset or what they say. Nothing else has worked so why not tune into yourself.
To add, my MIL went through a stage of spending so much she actually got behind on bills. Why was she spending so much. She was buying gifts for us, for our house ie decorating our house. I didn't like it, when she found that out I didn't like it, she doubled her effort to buy us multiple gifts a week, ongoing for months, I mean gifts are a PD favourite. In the end, she got behind in bills and with her credit card. That's the thing with PD's, you can't stop them playing their nonsense games, you simply have to remove yourself. In MIL's case she spent until she simply couldn't afford it anymore. I told her I didn't have room for everything she was buying and she gleefully bought more and more. I threw it all away and stopped talking to her about it, she got a gift I said nothing or a bland thank you and then I threw it away, when she stopped getting that reaction, she stopped spending her money however she was already in debt. She actually allowed herself to get into debt to get that reaction. You can't help them, you can't tell them.
The financial fracas is a concern, mainly because I can't and won't be the one to bail her out when it all implodes. She's not moving in with me and vice versa - I've worked too hard for my peace and my own home to have it disrupted. [Plus it's on the second floor and she can't maneuver stairs!] There's been no thought or preparation on her part, for the time she can't do it on her own anymore or needs help. Heck, I understand she recently cashed in a life insurance policy to pay down credit cards - who DOES that at 82?? She can't recoup that money, her income isn't going up at this stage in the game. So yes, there's resentment as well, that we'll be left to clean the debris she's left behind.
Quote from: Hepaticamoglow,
I agree with Andeza. It hurts because it's supposed to. It's a parenting style that believes in punishment and relishes in that power.
The natural concept of family is topsy turvy in disorder-land. We grew up feeling like this :stars: again and again and again. I constantly find myself wondering why my parents use the closest people around them as punching bags? They perceive that as normal. Healthy families understand that the inner circle of family is meant to be supportive, not perfect, but at the basic level, loving. Disorder-land goes for denial, punishment and anything goes if I'm in a bad mood.
...
Step back a bit and tell yourself that you deserve better and it's very unlikely she will be the healthy parent you deserve. Treat yourself with some tenderness. This is a loss and it hurts. I'm sorry. But you can find that love within and with other people. Our toxic parents though. It's doubtful they will ever realize what true love is.
Y'all really know how to get to the heart of things! Mother maintained that this was "normal" when everything inside me screamed that it's not. I get that's what she knew with her family, but you'd think at some point she'd realize that's not necessarily the case for everyone. Yeah no. Her self involvement doesn't all for reflection, any indication that her thought processes need serious work.
I doubt I know what love is, even though now I can at least recognize what it's *not*. I hate that we've experienced so much of the same, are only now really accepting that what we've known just isn't normal and we don't have to live that way. GETTING to that place is a bit more of a challenge than I realized.
I'm not yet where I'm willing to delete mother's old voicemails, and right now I'm kind of glad. I just sat and replayed several I've saved from the past few years - all have a harsh snippy tone, threats of "if something doesn't change [i.e. if I don't kowtow to her demands!] i'll no longer be part of your life," snarls about apparently her cell phone has been blocked [um no, I was very up front and open about that when I did it. There was no "apparently" about it!], etc. And yes, threats of disconnecting her home phone if I won't unblock her cell, and how she called when I'm at work or text because I'm so hard to talk to - all planned and deliberate on her part. Those messages one after the other were spat at me even when we'd clearly not talked in a while, her claims that I didn't care. She wanted responses, return calls to THAT? Piss poor behavior = resulting consequences, mommie dearest!!
As y'all suggested above had she used a dab of self-reflection and changed the way she talked to/about me, we wouldn't be where we are now. I wouldn't have grown to dread that message indicator or ultimately blocked the ugliness from my life. It does sting that she's okay with shutting me down, but let's be clear - it's no loss to her other than the loss of an audience. And I never had anything resembling warmth and compassion from her so I'm really not sure why I continue to whinge about it. "Because she's my mother ..." The gift that keeps on giving [insert rolling eyes here].
moglow,
Forgive me for being blunt, but your mother's behaviour is bullying. There is no love in threatening people and prodding them along with snippy, harsh tones. Having her a distance, and even better, no contact at all, is the most self-loving thing you could do for yourself.
If they'd only learn to be loving, we'd be so happy to love them back, but they don't seem to get it. Obligation goes only so far, and when it becomes to the point of self-harm, we should be allowed to throw obligation out the window. :hug:
Hepatica, no apologies needed - you're more than welcome to call em like you see em where she's concerned! Perfect term for her: Mother IS a bully, always has been. I can remember her laughing about the way she walked all over her mother and siblings, other family members not being allowed to correct her or contradict her in any way. I think that's where her PD came in, she grew up all entitled with everyone catering to and tippy toeing around her, afraid they'd set her off. I think mother lashed out and abused us because that's literally what she'd done all her life, not because it had been done to her.
But yes, some of those voicemails are at least two years old or possibly further back. This is not a new thing for her - me pushing back and saying No? THAT is new. My resentments of her and her treatment of me/others is a poison I have to excise from my life. If that means never seeing or speaking with her again, then that's what it will be.
Thank you! :cool2:
I agree with the suggestion to curtail discussion of your mother's latest folderol with your brother. It appears to be feeding the rumination/sucking you back in to the drama.
If she gets herself in trouble, she will have to deal with it on her own. That's all there is to it. If she chooses to indulge magical thinking that there will be no consequences, or Moglow will do her "duty" and take care of everything for her despite all evidence, that's her choice.
Somehow you still care because... well you're a good human. It feels wrong because it is wrong... but it's not you who are wrong. It's the messed up pattern of abuse that has made a loving relationship with her absolutely impossible. It's also grief. If your mother ends up in real trouble that's regrettable, truly. But it doesn't make it your responsibility or even give you ability to make it any different. I'm sorry.
You seem well aware that the only place to go from here is acceptance. That's not something you can force on a timeline as I understand it.
On a different note, is there any way to avoid being stuck with the inevitable mess of affairs at her death?
Moglow - the thing that NC or distance from a mom like you have and like I had reveals in ways we simply cannot not see.. is we are not missed. There was never a place, space, room for us in their lives.
In my own case, I was unwanted and a problem and was told that many many times. I was an inconvenience. And if I spoke up for myself or took action to distance myself from abuse, such as you have done, I was cruelly punished and set aside.
Facing that fully and acknowledging that core truth was a kind of final letting go for me.
Part of that has been seeing how ugly, selfish, shallow and malicious my mother's choices and behaviors toward me have been which speaks of deep character issues and moral failure that is a lot to process.
It is no little thing for a mother to verbally and emotionally abuse her loving daughter to such a degree you have to block her cell phone.
QuoteWhy on earth does what she thinks weigh so heavily on my mind and how do I shut it off??? I get that part of it is a lifetime of training and reinforcement, the belief that I'm [and others are] responsible for her feewings. All the stuff is still ebbing and flowing through my soul like waves ...
It is truly an epic battle to beat back the conditioning and waves and turn and begin to climb to higher ground and refuse to look back and further engage. You are getting there. And we are with you along that steep trail up and away to freedom, clean air, clear views, acceptance of what you cannot change and peace. :hug:
I echo everything that people have said. You, we, are the victims of child, then adult, abuse by the people who should have loved and nurtured us. We have lived with cognitive dissonance all our lives. We are living with varying degrees of C-PTSD. We are still unpicking our FOG in order to protect ourselves. We have been left with some deep core wounds and some less than helpful coping strategies.
We are also total fucking heroes. We have chosen to be different from our PD parents. We have chosen to be good people. We have raised our kids (if we have them) with love and a reasonable dose of sanity. We are good to our friends, colleagues and neighbors. We work on our personal growth and healing. We support our fellow travellers here. We are pretty awesome people.
Moglow, I hear your pain and frustration. This too shall pass. 💖💖💖
Quote from: moglow on October 28, 2021, 09:47:02 AM
Y'all really know how to get to the heart of things! Mother maintained that this was "normal" when everything inside me screamed that it's not. I get that's what she knew with her family, but you'd think at some point she'd realize that's not necessarily the case for everyone. Yeah no. Her self involvement doesn't all for reflection, any indication that her thought processes need serious work.
For me this has been hard as well, I couldn't really understand why there was no self reflection from my own mother. Couldn't she see what she was doing, or how her actions affected others. It was really hard for me to admit that perhaps she doesn't care.
I'm glad the saved messages were beneficial for you. To hear and understand the cruel tone and remind yourself of why you can't keep doing it. What I found really interesting is that in prior messaging your mother has threatened to disconnect her landline if you block her so you now know that she has done this to punish you. I mean what does she think, that you will be left shaking in your boots and come running back, yep in her mind, disconnecting her landline will be enough to pull you into line. Its punishment.
Its not an easy relationship to disengage from. Its not an easy relationship to accept that it is built on neglect or cruelty. It takes time to work your way through all the emotions, to keep going. As you said if at any stage in your mothers life she had done the work you are doing now, the relationship may have been different. Its frustrating but ultimately they either can't see it or choose not to see it. We don't have to be left punished in these relationships because they didn't do the work or the self reflection. Your mother chose her path and you get to choose yours.
Quote from: moglow on October 28, 2021, 01:40:15 PM
Hepatica, no apologies needed - you're more than welcome to call em like you see em where she's concerned! Perfect term for her: Mother IS a bully, always has been. I can remember her laughing about the way she walked all over her mother and siblings, other family members not being allowed to correct her or contradict her in any way. I think that's where her PD came in, she grew up all entitled with everyone catering to and tippy toeing around her, afraid they'd set her off. I think mother lashed out and abused us because that's literally what she'd done all her life, not because it had been done to her.
But yes, some of those voicemails are at least two years old or possibly further back. This is not a new thing for her - me pushing back and saying No? THAT is new. My resentments of her and her treatment of me/others is a poison I have to excise from my life. If that means never seeing or speaking with her again, then that's what it will be.
Thank you! :cool2:
Im jumping in here late in the game and this may sound cold, but its true for my uPDfather. I had to think about this a lot when I heard it stated to a caller by the wonderfully blunt (and many times correct) Dr Laura Schlessinger.
The caller kept referring to her 'parent'' and 'dad' in her story and this person's emotional attachment that dragged her into continual emotional abuse and manipulation by him. Dr Laura asked her what makes this man a 'parent'.... a 'dad'? There was silence on the other end of the call, so Laura continued on with what makes someone a parent and a dad, and abuse and manipulation weren't in the job description. Therefore, she stated this man was no more her 'parent' or 'dad' than a similar-aged grumpy man who lives down the block.
Dr Laura stated that this man did 'father' a child (verb), but he was not, based on the caller's description of him over a lifetime, a 'parent' or 'dad'. Therefore, Dr. Laura referred to him as a "sperm-donor" to her mom/mother and that she was raised by her mom/mother and sadly had this 'sperm-donor' living in the home.
When my uNPD father/sperm-donor uses his connection with me as a way to emotionally manipulate me for his own gain and self-presevation, i always remember what Dr Laura said and ask myself if its true. Sure, there were times when things were calm and even enjoyable around my father, but parent, dad, friend he did not do, but rather manipulated those privileged titles he earned, for his own benefit by 'fathering' a child and 'locking-in' my caretaker mother as his lifetime servant.
So, not sure if this concept would also help your emotions and brain-energy output in these situations, to consider what makes a woman a 'parent' or 'mom'. If she gave birth to you, she 'mothered' (verb) a child but was she just really an egg and womb donor for her own benefit? If she adopted you, was she really a 'parent', a 'mom' or a foster 'mother' who did it for her own benefit (potentially locking in your dad also)?
I sure never remember giving a rats-behind about my childhood friend's father or the older man I have not met, who lives down the block from me now, and they may be PD's as well, for all I know. Would i help that older man down the street, to get out of a bind he could not solve himself? Sure i would, until he was an ass to me or my family and then he would not get any of my time or concern.
So when the emotions start to boil up hot regarding my fathers actions/reactions, I relate to Dr. Laura's words and they simmer down a great deal colder.
SoT
SoT I'm not a huge Dr Laura fan but she does have a way of calling a spade a spade! I grew up and have had it thrust at me all my life "but she's your mother, the only one you'll ever have..." So it's hard to unhear that even now knowing who she is abd what she's chosen. The voices in my head ask in the reverse, if she's the only one doesn't that make all of this exponentially worse?! Why is there so little recognition/admission that *the parent* made these choices, the quick assertion that we/children of must somehow be "the bigger person" and make it work etc?
My older brother recently shared links to Rick Warren's podcasts on forgiveness, where he speaks of resentment and generational bitterness. I'd not really framed my feelings as such, how deeply I resent the mother I was given and how she treated us all our lives, her erratic and unreasonable performances, the extreme rages out of nowhere that fueled the violent episodes. The only consistency we had was the sheer inconsistency of mother's reactions to every and anything.
Anyhoo, Pastor Rick's message was to forgive and keep on forgiving, BUT that doesn't rebuild trust or the relationships. Forgiveness is so WE can heal and stop allowing it to eat us alive. Very different message from what I've always been taught - forgive and jump right back in with my clean conscience knowing where it will go if they don't choose to change.
Forgiveness isn't carte blanche for more abuse, in other words. Light bulb moment!!! I'm choosing to walk away from her and more harm, finally learning that it really is okay.
MoGlow,
I fully understand your response. I agree, Dr Laura does not mince words and her version of 'shock therapy' sometimes on certain subjects (non-marital) gets the attention of the caller at the right time in the call, so Dr Laura can insert some harsh truths regarding the situation, from her doctoral training, decades of experience in dealing with people on live radio and her past private practice.
Not defending her in any way and in fact, I believe she is out of date in areas of her psychological education regarding PD's in the last decades vs when she was in private practice. At the same time, I highly disagree with many of her marital theories revolving around the wife being/not being the 'girlfriend' of her husband and that husbands are simple one-track sex, provider and protector machines that just need a girlfriend haha. But imo there are some truths to glean from some of her advice on certain subjects and for me, when i hear them, I run them up against my religious beliefs and consider, keep or discard. I will leave that comment there since this isn't the religion board.
Forgiveness is an interesting subject and for me, its a deep religious/faith subject so again i will not divulge certain concepts here. In general, I believe that forgiveness, is me giving over my people issue(s) to another more capable to handle, so as you said "WE can heal and stop allowing it to eat us alive." I do that without the people who wronged me knowing, and they surely are not getting any notion of 'off-the-hook' from me.
Looking back now, and knowing that my father's harsh mindset has always been self-serving. Now, with the Out of the FOG lenses on while retracing my childhood, I am able to flip certain situations over and see the real self-motives. Even things I perceived as positive, were simply trophies for my father, and extreme and harsh expectations and 'training' (abuse) was that his children would become a source of large pride-trophies for him. Therefore I will remember the idea of Dr Laura's words and consider why this man's actions and reactions (or lack thereof) can still mentally affect me so much. Again, my religious beliefs and therefore religious teaching I consult, will provide some answers to this 'unchosen' connection i have with my father vs others, but in certain times, for reduced anxiety and shedding, it helps me to think about him as the asinine older man who lives down the block and let it go (forgive).
I wish you the best with your search for acceptance and like you I'm learning to walk away. I always desire to 'love' other humans as best possible and to me that means to desire and possibly assist in what is BEST for another person. In some cases, BEST is my walking away and allowing hardship of consequence to do its fine millstone grinding.
SoT
Thats good, Moglow, and an important distinction to make. Naturally our abusers want to achieve a state of forgiveness (somehow without ever actually apologizing? :blink:) and then we're supposed to forget how they are, how they're treated us, etc. That way they can jump right back into their old behaviors and get back to abusing us with no delay and zero guilt because we forgave them... They see forgiveness as license to continue abusing us as usual.
Absolutely, Andeza. Catch-22 says if it's forgiven, it can't be that much of a problem anyway. If it's not forgiven, then you're a bad person.
Andeza, I think that's where I've kept hitting a wall in my mind - the idea that forgiveness seemed to mean that I must reopen that door, that I'm lacking (yet again) with my refusal to put myself in that position. Plus mother never so much as hinted that she owed apologies to anyone. They must indeed excuse her as it was all their fault in the first place!
Putting it in THIS context, that it's nothing to do with her possible reaction, but that it's about and completely for my own healing ... All of a sudden that's mind blowing really, all fresh and new and not just my supposedly selfish mind.
Quote from: Bloomie...the thing that NC or distance from a mom like you have and like I had reveals in ways we simply cannot not see.. is we are not missed. There was never a place, space, room for us in their lives.
In my own case, I was unwanted and a problem and was told that many many times. I was an inconvenience. And if I spoke up for myself or took action to distance myself from abuse, such as you have done, I was cruelly punished and set aside.
Facing that fully and acknowledging that core truth was a kind of final letting go for me.
Part of that has been seeing how ugly, selfish, shallow and malicious my mother's choices and behaviors toward me have been which speaks of deep character issues and moral failure that is a lot to process
.
Somehow in all this time I didn't see the very real similarities in our stories. You've seemed light-years ahead of me in growth and healing - and in forgiveness! - and I can't help but wonder what brought you to this place, the battles you fought to get here. I salute you, really I do.
Thank you all for continuing to be my anchors and giving me much needed shoves along the way. Y'all have become a huge part of my chosen family and I'm proud to know you. :hug:
Quote from: Call Me Cordelia on October 29, 2021, 04:41:57 PM
Absolutely, Andeza. Catch-22 says if it's forgiven, it can't be that much of a problem anyway. If it's not forgiven, then you're a bad person.
When my PD's believe I've gotten over/beyond something that they did to offend me, they believe that I'm forgiving them, when Ive made no audible/written comments or actions/reactions symbolizing 'forgiveness' other than my quietly moving on. Sometimes my uNPDf will actually state an apology to me which is always a facade, proven so by an attempted repeat of the same offense in the not-so-distant future.
Therefore the facade-apology or their perceived receiving of forgiveness is a 'start-over' button (video game analogy) and in black and white thinking, the past is erased. MoGlow got neither and in MoGlows situation, it sounds as if her PDm is still game-on, and in a very creative, psychological, proactive NC-nullifying action by mother NC'ing herself. So with the lob-back over to MoGlow, it was not a point for MoGlow but only a volley. Interesting is that MoGlow's mother shows zero concern for the 4 month NC, but is aware and concerned only with a neutralizing revenge. Mind game experts they are indeed.
SoT
Quote from: moglow on October 29, 2021, 02:55:31 PM. Very different message from what I've always been taught - forgive and jump right back in with my clean conscience knowing where it will go if they don't choose to change. Forgiveness isn't carte blanche for more abuse, in other words. Light bulb moment!!! I'm choosing to walk away from her and more harm, finally learning that it really is okay.
:yeahthat:
MoGlow,
I agree with that, if forgiveness is meaning that i purposefully, mentally give the wrongful action to a more capable, higher power to handle. You wrote "jump back in", followed by "choosing to walk away" so i will assume "jump back in" means mentally get my mind right back to healthy NC protection, not re-engage with mother.
I very much appreciated the extra PD forgiveness twists by Andeza and Call Me Cordelia, which are 100% unpreventable mental twists on the PD's part, and there is no toolbox tool to prevent that thinking. Therefore with the self-serving twists of :
1. Assumed forgiveness by target = PD reset to more abuse (by Andeza)
2. Assumed forgiveness by target reduces the severity of the wrong in the mind of the PD (by Call Me Cordelia)
3. PD's assumed un-forgiveness by target (MoGlow) = PD is still 'game-on', and continues to abuse. (In your specific case, mother NC'ing herself in the standoff as an attempted neutralizer)
Therefore no matter what, the PD abuser has a mental escape route (I win or game-on!), therefore true forgiveness by the target = silently giving the PD-offense to a higher, more capable power to handle, and getting on with protected life, is indeed an excellent boundary tool, because it is designed to control ourselves with no attempt to control another and offers ourselves full mental protection to move along.
Imo, forgiveness is very much like a cleanup crew at the concrete boundary protective wall at a road construction project. The worker (MoGlow) erects the concrete protective boundary (NC), and then in PD mother's recognition of the NC, she purposefully crashes into the wall in revenge, but only wrecks her own abilities. MoGlow, who's going about her business behind the protective wall, recognizes that mother tried to distract MoGlows work, but simply calls the highly capable cleanup crew to take mother's mess away from the wall (MoGlows silent forgiveness) and the job-site is all cleaned-up again. The boundary wall is still up and strong, protecting MoGlow's ongoing work and ready for another PD attempt to get around/through the barrier. The cleanup crew is on-call 24/7.
SoT
SoT, you used the word "game" several times, not knowing that mommie dearest does that as well. Part of her snarling voicemails was indeed commentary about supposed games I'm playing, the silent treatment she's being given. She's (or at least was) not grasping the differences here, that me not having anything left to say isn't silent treatment or any kind of game. It's not and has never been entertaining or enjoyable to me, certainly not hearing her spiteful jeering laugh at my expense. She truly doesn't get it or see what she's done.
And those apology scenarios are spot on! I suspect mother sees apologies as weakness and assumed exactly as described. Once years ago when backed into a corner about the abuse, she spat "FINE! It HAPPENED! So WHAT?! What do you want from me???" Some remorse, some regret, an apology for how unnecessary it all was, recognition of all the damage done? "You want an apology?!! I'm SO sorry. Feel better now?!" If I had to guess, that's where her resentments of me really snowballed. I dared confront, ask for explanations, if I'd imagined it all those years. You don't do that in her world - you suck it up and try to make her rages okay, make the continued abuses okay. Always kowtowing and placating her, trying to appease the demons within.
Any confrontation or attempt to actually have the difficult conversations brought full on defense mechanisms and contempt, with the confrontee just wanting it to all stop. She'd break it off rather that actually respond then go silent for a few weeks followed by some random text or message. My response (any response) was seen as "it's okay" and the original subject wasn't revisited or resolved. It just festered. That's not what happened here. There's no mo grovel - and now she eliminated the only way she could reach me or try to force yet another confrontation of how awfully she's been treated. She's not getting that presumed apology she feels is due. I would imagine she doesn't approve at all how this game ended.
MoGlow, a few observations on your last post.
1. You used the 'game' language in your original post with "I blocked her cell phone due to the way she treated me, now she's cut off her home phone in retaliation of sorts, throwing that ball back in my court." I simply mirrored that tennis/volleyball game type of language because you experience it, and I also experience the 'volley' with my uPDfather. It IS a game to them; a game they will lie and cheat to win.
2. Hypocrisy is, imo one of the hardest things to deal with and in my experiences (i just discussed this in a different thread), Hypocrisy and Projection are joined at the hip. You just typed:
"Part of her snarling voicemails was indeed commentary about supposed games I'm playing, the silent treatment she's being given. She's (or at least was) not grasping the differences here, that me not having anything left to say isn't silent treatment or any kind of game."
Yes, you not having anything to say isnt silent treatment, but her "throwing the ball back" by accusing and cutting off her own phone service, is imo the hypocrisy and projection of her "snarling voicemails", which in my experiences reveals her motives of her own silent treatment; her own recognition and admission that shes indeed playing the manipulation game.
3. The IDD cycle is Idealization, Devaluation, Discard. Your words:
" There's no mo grovel - and now she eliminated the only way she could reach me or try to force yet another confrontation of how awfully she's been treated. She's not getting that presumed apology she feels is due. I would imagine she doesn't approve at all how this game ended. "
That is how i have experienced discard with my uPDw every time we cycled. When devaluation only led to my self-protective distance vs me asking "why, what can i do to make this better" (uggh....my caretaking past), she would then "throw the ball back" in extreme silent treatment (not silent at all) and pretending I didn't exist.
Before coming Out of the FOG, the pressure of the discard of IDD would bring me back around and my apologies (for nothing i did wrong) and saying yes to the happy-wife high jump bar being raised higher once again, led full circle back to Idealization (start-over game button). So, are you experiencing discard from your mother? If so, I want to recommend where I am today; staying PUT in Discard, by the use of I=Indifference and never cycling again. I have tried 'matching' the discard by mirroring what she does to me, but my PDw cant stand the taste of her own medicine, so that only led to raging devaluation while also being discarded at the same time (too much anxiety for me). But, having a stay-put, MC attitude of indifference to anything under the IDD umbrella, is perfect. She can love-bomb, name call, silent treatment and SoT is just MC indifferent toward it all, staying the course of moving forward with good things in my life.
SoT
Her discard or no isn't my problem or a consideration, not anymore. We've both made choices and the likelihood of me changing mine are slim to nonexistent. I don't see the point.
Quote from: moglow on October 31, 2021, 10:46:35 AM
Her discard or no isn't my problem or a consideration, not anymore. We've both made choices and the likelihood of me changing mine are slim to nonexistent. I don't see the point.
MoGlow, was mentioning solely for further potential consideration and understanding of your own active mental focus toward her volley-actions toward your non-action, which i believed was your topic of the thread.
Imo, 'indifference' isnt a proactive choice needing to be made by me, but rather an attempted prefab'd mindset that im spending as little mental energy as possible on my PD's proactive discard. Since i can only control myself and I know my PD's will spend energy attempting to scramble my mind, the preplanned indifference is indeed helping me to shrug off the missiles of discard, that my PD's keep trying to shoot over my boundary walls.
I believe you stated that you just didnt have anything to say to her vs her accusation of giving her the silent treatment, but your initial post on this thread states "choosing no contact with a parent is not an easy path". Imo, choosing NC is surely not silent treatment, but is proactive. Therefore, imo, indifference is a proactive mindset but for me, and rides shotgun with my proactive understanding. So I analyze my PD's behaviors to gain full awareness of my surroundings for my advantages, but choose to mentally not give a darn, while relaxing as best possible, behind my toolbox boundary walls.
Wishing you the best on 'finding acceptance'.
SoT
I can't imagine being married and living in it every day, having a choice and yet not. All or nothing thinking is hard for me to watch even at a distance. Trying to find and embrace indifference to the dramatics?? My hat's off to you.
I struggled for years trying to find middle ground with mother or anything approaching indifference to the dramatics. Finally really grasping that doesn't even exist for her, everything really is all/nothing, good/bad, black/white with no shades of gray? It takes time, admittedly shouldn't have taken nearly this long or done so much damage. I was intent on changing something that wasn't mine, forcing a relationship that didn't exist for her. We both had visions of what it was supposed to be and neither saw the other. I didnt/don't want obligatory agreement with her and her treatment of others, she failed to see others in general. It's a very sad and narrow life view, actually a wonder that I've escaped it on any level.
Quote from: SonofThunder on October 29, 2021, 12:45:37 PM
Im jumping in here late in the game and this may sound cold, but its true for my uPDfather. I had to think about this a lot when I heard it stated to a caller by the wonderfully blunt (and many times correct) Dr Laura Schlessinger.
The caller kept referring to her 'parent'' and 'dad' in her story and this person's emotional attachment that dragged her into continual emotional abuse and manipulation by him. Dr Laura asked her what makes this man a 'parent'.... a 'dad'? There was silence on the other end of the call, so Laura continued on with what makes someone a parent and a dad, and abuse and manipulation weren't in the job description. Therefore, she stated this man was no more her 'parent' or 'dad' than a similar-aged grumpy man who lives down the block....
So when the emotions start to boil up hot regarding my fathers actions/reactions, I relate to Dr. Laura's words and they simmer down a great deal colder.
SoT
Just reading back over this, and thank you. I typically refer to mother as "mommie dearest" of Joan Crawford fame. The similarities are/were eerie and I noticed it many years back, read Christina Crawford's book when it came out (the book's worse than the made for tv movie, btw). I watched people stepping up in J Crawford's "defense," as if they had any clue what she was like behind closed doors, realized that's what so many others see in mine as well. People see that surface charm and may even sense an edge, but few see the flip side. It's calculated, all a big act.
I played the game far too long, bought into the "but she's your mother," first by her then by others when she moaned about how awful we all were. All the while she showed little interest or compassion, seemed hellbent on tearing us down. Even so, it's hard to put down those societal messages.
Again, thx for sharing - it does help when my brain slows down. I'm so tired of it all.
Big hugs Mo 💖💪
Thx, BB. I can sure use that right about now.
Try the Self Compassion Break. It's on the Mindful Self Compassion website. Easy, simple, very effective.
Quote from: moglow on November 04, 2021, 03:24:42 AM
Quote from: SonofThunder on October 29, 2021, 12:45:37 PM
Im jumping in here late in the game and this may sound cold, but its true for my uPDfather. I had to think about this a lot when I heard it stated to a caller by the wonderfully blunt (and many times correct) Dr Laura Schlessinger.
The caller kept referring to her 'parent'' and 'dad' in her story and this person's emotional attachment that dragged her into continual emotional abuse and manipulation by him. Dr Laura asked her what makes this man a 'parent'.... a 'dad'? There was silence on the other end of the call, so Laura continued on with what makes someone a parent and a dad, and abuse and manipulation weren't in the job description. Therefore, she stated this man was no more her 'parent' or 'dad' than a similar-aged grumpy man who lives down the block....
So when the emotions start to boil up hot regarding my fathers actions/reactions, I relate to Dr. Laura's words and they simmer down a great deal colder.
SoT
Just reading back over this, and thank you. I typically refer to mother as "mommie dearest" of Joan Crawford fame. The similarities are/were eerie and I noticed it many years back, read Christina Crawford's book when it came out (the book's worse than the made for tv movie, btw). I watched people stepping up in J Crawford's "defense," as if they had any clue what she was like behind closed doors, realized that's what so many others see in mine as well. People see that surface charm and may even sense an edge, but few see the flip side. It's calculated, all a big act.
I played the game far too long, bought into the "but she's your mother," first by her then by others when she moaned about how awful we all were. All the while she showed little interest or compassion, seemed hellbent on tearing us down. Even so, it's hard to put down those societal messages.
Again, thx for sharing - it does help when my brain slows down. I'm so tired of it all.
Surely!
My now elderly (yet feisty and physically fit) PDfather is the facade personality in my lineage. His parents were a mixed set. My grandfather (his father) was a hero of mine. Such a wonderful man in many-many ways, but his wife (my grandmother) was the problem, where an underdeveloped boy became my PDfather. I have done a ton of digging around the history there to discover how my father became a PDadult and then also what made my caretaker mother, the ultimate target-wife for my PDfather. A verbally abusive and situationally manipulative match made in hell.
Part of my coming Out of the FOG, is my 90% NC with my PDfather. I cant 100% because i own the property (different part of the country than me) in which they live, so i have some dealings with him in relation to it. Plus, i purposefully have MC-positioned myself (using my distance and neutral non-judgmental attitude) with him to be the one family member he can now tell all his dark secrets, which helps me understand what he's doing (PD behaviors) in advance so i can keep a watchful, protective eye on my sweet non-pd mother. If he starts turning his frustrations toward me, which can happen, i quickly end the call. Where he lives, he is a facade-angel to the community and complete hell to my mother and brother's entire family.
As for 'acceptance' (your thread title), the only thing i have is 100% acceptance that he is a PD and that i will expect full PD behaviors from him and will use the toolbox to protect myself and my mother in possible ways because of my location distance.
SoT
Yep - my acceptance is that md is who she is, giving up any expectations of change. Her exit from my life should be a non-issue, given her historical lack of interest other than her need for drama. But I bought into it decades ago, and my exit is a frustrating process. I see how she became pd, and also her conscious efforts to maintain those behaviors come what may.
Thx for understanding, for the boost.
Meanderings ...
This time last year I was shoulders deep into buying my first home - we were still waiting for results of property appraisal to verify if/how much the bank would finance. I'd already had to pull a contract on a different house due to failed inspection, so this one was even more nerve wracking. What a huge event [and relief!] it was to have done it finally, yet as excited and terrified as I was by the whole process, I couldn't and didn't share any of it with md. She was too busy throwing rocks and trying to make me responsible for her lack of relationship with other. Our every contact during the last half of last year was one complaint and random explosion after another. As far as I know she still has no idea, not even that I moved in last Thanksgiving, It's a big reminder how removed she is from my life, how little involvement or interest there's been.
This has been a long time coming. Taking another deep breath, moving my heart and brain forward again ...
Congrats on one year in your home, moglow! That's fantastic! :cake: :fireworks:
TY!! It kinda sucked to not be able to share it, but nah. Mine all mine - yeah I'm still a bit giddy over it at times! :jumping:
Quote from: Andeza on November 04, 2021, 10:11:43 AM
Congrats on one year in your home, moglow! That's fantastic! :cake: :fireworks:
:yeahthat: I tip my hat to you moglow!
SoT
It's been a big year in my house, in several ways. 😎
It is hard, for me it was grieving the relationship I had wanted with my mom, the one that occasionally showed up where we went somewhere fun, she made only helpful suggestions and complimented my efforts, my taste instead of criticizing every single gosh darn things she could, being a sour puss not matter what event I put together and always feeling like a disappointment. I chose NC due to her actions, I was done with trying to 'hash it out', telling her I wanted to be treated civilly, I just told her her actions weren't appropriate and wasn't taking it anymore and blocked her.
But in a dark little spot in my head, what I really, really wanted was for that to finally, finally be her wake up call, that she couldn't treat me like that or she'd lose me, that the idea of losing me and access to my kids might, just might, shock her into getting her act together. I held on to a bit of hope that she loved me and kids more than she liked to be mean, to be a victim, to cause drama. But on the rare occasion she tried to contact me, it was more of the same dismissive, rug sweeping, never taking any measure of responsibility for any of the things she had done. saying its because 'we don't communicate well' (Damn skippy we don't, cause she can't figure out the word 'no') Her attempts aren't the attempts of someone that loves the other person, only someone that refuses to see their part in things, refuses to be wrong, would rather die alone than be civil to the people that love her.
In the end, that's what I'm grieving. they fact she'd rather be a victim alone than even be nice to me and the kids. :o It's a hard pill to swallow and each new rug sweeping technique she uses makes me remember how big it is and how it would be really nice to have a mom that loved me to share things with. But that isn't who she is, and I'm not willing to be treated the way she wants to treat me.
Know that your mom has made a choice, you can count your worth to her in the $30 a month of a landline phone, just like I could count my worth to my mother in the $10 difference in a plan ticket she tried to use as an excuse to get her way. It's sad, and worth grieving for what might have been. I'm so sorry your mom can't value you as you deserve, but choose to focus your precious time and energy on the people that show you your real worth, how priceless they see you, and know you mom is the one really missing out.
Update: It's six months since I spoke with md, received one brief voicemail from her two months later that announced that she was disconnecting her home phone. I'm sure she assumed I would unblock her cell phone and she could resume the one sided text "relationship" she seemed fond of, claiming to not get my responses but continuing to blast me with her bitterness. But no, so silence since then.
I mailed md a semi-generic Snoopy Christmas card and received an even more generic happy holidays card with my new address on it. So she didn't attempt until she saw that I had, not even to mailing to the post office box she had for me previously. I wasn't ready this year to not reach out at all, but it's still somewhat of a disappointment to know she merely met my gesture and not one breath more. She didn't question the address change or provide any well wishes, no indication she'd appreciate any further contact of any kind. One brother got a text from her Christmas eve, my youngest brother received a Swiss Colony cheese box [I wasn't aware Swiss Colony still existed, and it's entirely possible those cheeses have survived from way back mall-kiosk days. I think he should hang on to it intact and send it to her next year, but I digress ...]. She's taken her assumptions of us and run with them, still unable to have or build anywhere near normal relationships with any of her own children.
Mommie dearest too, is done. I'm not entirely sure if anything ever began for her where other people are concerned. I served as her whipping boy and punching bag [figuratively and literally] for over 50 years and this is where we are. This morning I realize that overall I just feel flat where she's concerned. I'm not angry, anguished, bitter or anything else really. I don't miss her, yearn to talk to her, nor [at last!] do I cringe when the phone rings.
It's a brave new world, ladies and gentlemen. Blessings to all!
Congrats on the first year in your house. This thread has been interesting. The ideas about assumed forgiveness have been so interesting because this is something I use to struggle with. I use to get caught up with each individual hurtful action and didn't see the bigger picture until recently. I now see that moving on, which is what they tell you they want, is only so they can keep going with their behaviours. Forgiveness to them is simply acceptance of the behaviour. I now see a pattern of behaviour that is the big issue, it's a pattern of behaviour they refuse to stop or change. The problem was never this one issue of they said this or that in this one visit, the problem is a pattern of behaviour of continually being hurtful or insulting. I didn't see this before, I would think I had to get over the hurt of this one thing and then things may get back on track or change but the problem is an overall pattern with them. It's like I have only recently fully understood this. Because of this, I too feel flat about the whole thing. I don't miss them, I don't want to see them, I feel like I have given up on them.
I am sorry you are going through this. I had the same experience on Christmas. I sent a Christmas text and got a carbon copy version back. It didn't surprise me. My mother sends cards to everyone, not me. I am not even worth a phone call on my cell, not ever. She will call other people but when she found out I was with a different provider and it would cost her more, she simply doesn't call. As you said she met my gesture but not one breath more. She didn't even send a text before me, she returned mine almost straight away and she wakes up early, however it wasn't until I sent one mid morning that she bothered to reply. That sort of disinterest is gutting in a way. I wonder if she would have bothered if I hadn't. At the moment anything she does send has something about this year being stressful and looking forward to the new year when things calm down and all will go back to normal. It's so telling isn't it, she'll just sit back because she thinks it's a moment and then things can return to her normal in the new year. Even though she sends these things saying she thinks the year has been stressful, there is no reaching out, no phone call, no concern, just a few nothing words for a nothing relationship.
It must be heart breaking to see your mother still playing her silly games. Showing a lack of concern over NC, playing a game with NC like she needs to win or prove she's right. Doing that as the relationship is crumbling. I know this part has been hard for me. To simply be the punching bag and when you walk away there is no concern from them, not even a tiny bit of effort to see what's wrong. They show time and time again that they simply want us to move on, get over it, so things can return to their normal and they can continue their pattern of behaviour without even the unpleasantness of being held to account for their treatment of us.
I'm glad you are finding acceptance with this. Self compassion goes a long way.
Quote from: Hilltop on December 27, 2021, 02:04:12 AM
Congrats on the first year in your house. This thread has been interesting. The ideas about assumed forgiveness have been so interesting because this is something I use to struggle with. I use to get caught up with each individual hurtful action and didn't see the bigger picture until recently. I now see that moving on, which is what they tell you they want, is only so they can keep going with their behaviours. Forgiveness to them is simply acceptance of the behaviour. I now see a pattern of behaviour that is the big issue, it's a pattern of behaviour they refuse to stop or change. The problem was never this one issue of they said this or that in this one visit, the problem is a pattern of behaviour of continually being hurtful or insulting. I didn't see this before, I would think I had to get over the hurt of this one thing and then things may get back on track or change but the problem is an overall pattern with them. It's like I have only recently fully understood this. Because of this, I too feel flat about the whole thing. I don't miss them, I don't want to see them, I feel like I have given up on them.
I am sorry you are going through this. I had the same experience on Christmas. I sent a Christmas text and got a carbon copy version back. It didn't surprise me. My mother sends cards to everyone, not me. I am not even worth a phone call on my cell, not ever. She will call other people but when she found out I was with a different provider and it would cost her more, she simply doesn't call. As you said she met my gesture but not one breath more. She didn't even send a text before me, she returned mine almost straight away and she wakes up early, however it wasn't until I sent one mid morning that she bothered to reply. That sort of disinterest is gutting in a way. I wonder if she would have bothered if I hadn't. At the moment anything she does send has something about this year being stressful and looking forward to the new year when things calm down and all will go back to normal. It's so telling isn't it, she'll just sit back because she thinks it's a moment and then things can return to her normal in the new year. Even though she sends these things saying she thinks the year has been stressful, there is no reaching out, no phone call, no concern, just a few nothing words for a nothing relationship.
It must be heart breaking to see your mother still playing her silly games. Showing a lack of concern over NC, playing a game with NC like she needs to win or prove she's right. Doing that as the relationship is crumbling. I know this part has been hard for me. To simply be the punching bag and when you walk away there is no concern from them, not even a tiny bit of effort to see what's wrong. They show time and time again that they simply want us to move on, get over it, so things can return to their normal and they can continue their pattern of behaviour without even the unpleasantness of being held to account for their treatment of us.
I'm glad you are finding acceptance with this. Self compassion goes a long way.
:yeahthat:
Quote from: HilltopI now see that moving on, which is what they tell you they want, is only so they can keep going with their behaviours. Forgiveness to them is simply acceptance of the behaviour. I now see a pattern of behaviour that is the big issue, it's a pattern of behaviour they refuse to stop or change. The problem was never this one issue of they said this or that in this one visit, the problem is a pattern of behaviour of continually being hurtful or insulting. I didn't see this before, I would think I had to get over the hurt of this one thing and then things may get back on track or change but the problem is an overall pattern with them. It's like I have only recently fully understood this. Because of this, I too feel flat about the whole thing. I don't miss them, I don't want to see them, I feel like I have given up on them.
Yep, all of this too. It really doesn't seem to occur to mine either that it's not the one incident 15+ years ago she clings to. It's not one confrontation, misspoken word, misunderstanding, meltdown, or "justifiable" upset - it's time after time after time, then pounding me over the head with it all the way back to my childhood as if I can possibly change it. MD has said specifically she doesn't want to talk about the past - no, she doesn't want ME to talk about it! Our last phone call was just a recitation of every hurt and disappointment and resentment she could bring to mind at the time. She ran out of steam and the call ended, there was nothing to be said and nothing she cared to hear from me anyway. There's no understanding that two people were involved, she never once questioned or considered my side of any of it.
Not too many years ago she said in a snarky voicemail that all I cared about were my thoughts and my feelings and "all that CRAP!" and she didn't want to hear it. Okay then. She later claimed that she'd need "proof" she ever said such a thing! Even after I forwarded that message back to her, not a word of apology or remorse. I took it wrong, read more into it, etc. No, the message is right there exactly as you said them, and you need to listen to it again mommie dearest. It was pretty damned clear to me. I stopped talking, stopped sharing anything with her at all. I should have paid attention even then, but no. hope springs eternal.
Hilltop, it's not a pleasant place to be, but there is some peace in it. There's not a remote chance that she'll show up on my doorstep or that I'll have to decide whether or not to open the door. That would require effort on her part and just isn't going to happen. In the years I've lived here, not once has md set foot in any place I've lived or even shown slightest interest. And honestly, that's fine by me. My ship finally sailed without her and life truly is better without the chaos she dragged around. I want the same for you, ALL of you, hard as the process is at times.
Yes she didn't want to talk about the past, of course not and even when shown the voicemail simply no acknowledgement at all. You are correct when you say its like no understanding that two people are involved. I feel like we do look at them and try to understand however the only thing reflected back is what they want or feel. There's no room for another.
I agree that there is less chaos and I am glad you have found some peace in that. I am glad you feel safe in your house, although I would imagine that is hurtful as well. Thank you for your kind words.
Quote from: moglow on October 27, 2021, 03:27:41 PM
Why on earth does what she thinks weigh so heavily on my mind and how do I shut it off??? I get that part of it is a lifetime of training and reinforcement, the belief that I'm [and others are] responsible for her feewings. All the stuff is still ebbing and flowing through my soul like waves ...
Good question. It's mostly brain phisiology. If you teach a dog to expect meat if a bell rings, he'll salivate each time a bell rings. My brother's dog jumps on me out of joy when I say the word 'out'. That's how our PD parents behaved as well. They trained us to react at the 'bell' aka abusive statements: But I'm your mother! I've sacrificed so much for you. You owe me. You can only trust in me/us. The world is unsafe. You don't matter, etc. All these abusive statements created neurological pathways in our brain, that's why we associate those phrases with shame and guilt.
I've read in a book that our brains are malleable. Our DNA can be easily altered, meaning, if we incorporate new beliefs, our brain is gonna activate healthy, more empowering behaviours and feelings.
But like you said, it may take a lifetime to create these new behaviors. (or unlearn the bad responses).
Can you associate feeling bad/guilty about something that your fam said/did with a positive activity? For ex, when you feel like that, get a coloring book and do that activity. Or go for a nature walk. There's no rule that says whenever we feel guilt or shame we should give in to these feelings. It's in our power to get out of these triggers.