Why can't I think when I'm around him?

[TooLiteral]

I think I'm a reasonably intelligent woman. I have a college degree. I've lived alone, taken care of myself, been out of the country. I had a decent childhood (not perfect but not terribly awful.) I'm well-read, well-spoken, decently-cultured.

Why, when my uNPDh speaks to me, rages, devalues, belittles me, am I completely incapable of standing up for myself? How do I lose everything I've learned? Every negative experience I've overcome triumphantly. Every bit of self-respect and dignity. Poof.

What on earth is that?

[Hazy111]

Sorry for being a bit abrupt here

I had a decent childhood (not perfect but not terribly awful.)  Did you really??  That statement was me about 30 years  completely in the fog and indenial. I didnt know what a normal family was? I wasnt abused , given stuff, parents were (present) 100% Didnt drink/drugs etc. But unfortunately they werent happy well adjusted adults as ive come to realise over many many painful years. (NB I have a degree and professionally qualified)

Why then are you attracted and put up with  a bullying narcissist?  Hint, its not your genes. Good luck coming Out of the FOG

[TooLiteral]

Sorry for being a bit abrupt here

I had a decent childhood (not perfect but not terribly awful.)  Did you really??  That statement was me about 30 years  completely in the fog and indenial. I didnt know what a normal family was? I wasnt abused , given stuff, parents were (present) 100% Didnt drink/drugs etc. But unfortunately they werent happy well adjusted adults as ive come to realise over many many painful years. (NB I have a degree and professionally qualified)

Why then are you attracted and put up with  a bullying narcissist?  Hint, its not your genes. Good luck coming Out of the FOG

Oh no. I know my father was a cerebral narcissist. I've known that for years. Could it really be just that? Could the answer be right under my nose like that?

[notrightinthehead]

It could be that your response to traumatic situations is to freeze, not the flight or fight response. That would explain that you dissociate somewhat and are incapable of standing up for yourself when your NPDh rages at you.

[StayWithMe]

I graduated from high school in the late 70s.  A time when women were still going to college to get their "Mrs"  We moved to the white suburbs at a time when inter racial dating was not common a dn especially not for black girls.  Going to college was supposed to be my ticket out, in which I would find a nice black guy to marry.  unfortunately, my parents put pressure on me to go to the same uni as my sister.  She watched me like a hawk.  Talked about my dating to my parents.  They would really say "you need to act right" and so on.  that message does have a way of making you doubt yourself. 

[Samuel S.]

TooLiteral, you are a learned woman! You are able to think and to do your best! It is very understandable that while you can respect differences, that when you deal with a person who is very abusive, you get shell-shocked. I can relate to you so very much. My PDw has been very abusive although she is in a lull for the time being. When she has said very abusive things, I am shell-shocked. I am speechless, because it is hard to believe that such horrible words come out of her mouth. Only rarely have I defended myself, because the backlash for defending myself only results in more abusive, poor me attitude coming from her. There comes a time when you find out that the person whom you met is not the person who is now, and that is a part of being shell-shocked. She told me numerous times that she was the best thing that ever happened in her life. I wish I could recorded her words when she has been abusive and manipulative.

In a manner of speaking, if we take this one step further, we nonPDs are experiencing grief, the grief or loss of person whom we initially loved so deeply!

[Hazy111]

Sorry for being a bit abrupt here

I had a decent childhood (not perfect but not terribly awful.)  Did you really??  That statement was me about 30 years  completely in the fog and indenial. I didnt know what a normal family was? I wasnt abused , given stuff, parents were (present) 100% Didnt drink/drugs etc. But unfortunately they werent happy well adjusted adults as ive come to realise over many many painful years. (NB I have a degree and professionally qualified)

Why then are you attracted and put up with  a bullying narcissist?  Hint, its not your genes. Good luck coming Out of the FOG

Oh no. I know my father was a cerebral narcissist. I've known that for years. Could it really be just that? Could the answer be right under my nose like that?

[Hazy111]

Yep. Your father is a subconscious template for all for future relations with men.  It is very powerful.

There are other threads that cover exactly the same situation. See "trauma bond" also

You can be attracted to complicated difficult men and try to "fix" them like you couldnt do with your father when you were a child. (Im attracted to difficult complicated unhappy Borderlines btw)

My exes daughter, beautiful , intelligent , funny was going out with the local drug dealer  . Then she eventually broke free and dated a perfectly normal nice steady but bit dull guy. This lasted a few years . I remember her saying she still dreams about the "drug dealer".    I now understand she has split up with the steady guy and guess what .....   


Good luck

[TooLiteral]

Yep. Your father is a subconscious template for all for future relations with men.  It is very powerful.

There are other threads that cover exactly the same situation. See "trauma bond" also

You can be attracted to complicated difficult men and try to "fix" them like you couldnt do with your father when you were a child. (Im attracted to difficult complicated unhappy Borderlines btw)

My exes daughter, beautiful , intelligent , funny was going out with the local drug dealer  . Then she eventually broke free and dated a perfectly normal nice steady but bit dull guy. This lasted a few years . I remember her saying she still dreams about the "drug dealer".    I now understand she has split up with the steady guy and guess what .....   


Good luck

This is exactly what my therapist recently said. My PD father was teaching me how to have relationshops with men; very unhealthy ones. And just like your exes daughter, I gravitated toward disordered thinking, drama, and control; something my father did in spades.

[Associate of Daniel]

Perhaps you could make a list of his behaviours- projection, manipulation, rewriting history, gaslighting etc..

Then when he next  displays them you'll begin to recognise them and label them (in your head) more quickly.

Then you can start to build a repertoire of responses to him - "I'm sorry you feel that way", "I can see that you feel angry about this.", "When we've both calmed down we'll talk about it."  Etc.

The toolbox here is great for advice on this.

It's the white coat detachment we all strive for, and unfortunately it doesn't come overnight.

But it is such a blessing when the detachment comes.

All the best.

AOD

[SonofThunder]

I think I'm a reasonably intelligent woman. I have a college degree. I've lived alone, taken care of myself, been out of the country. I had a decent childhood (not perfect but not terribly awful.) I'm well-read, well-spoken, decently-cultured.

Why, when my uNPDh speaks to me, rages, devalues, belittles me, am I completely incapable of standing up for myself? How do I lose everything I've learned? Every negative experience I've overcome triumphantly. Every bit of self-respect and dignity. Poof.

What on earth is that?

With PD's, "standing up for myself" is what they want.  It's called 'bait', and responding to it is called J.A.D.E.'ing.   So therefore, using the toolbox in MC and creatively wiggling away from 'bait' is a sign of the smart fish. 

So then, what on earth is that?  The answer can be 'highly intelligent' if purposefully using the toolbox.  For a fun study of pure genius in this regard, look at how Jesus wiggled away from bait.  When a confrontation was called for, he did that as well. At the end, they though they finally did him in by nailing him like they did (no pun intended), but he was carrying out his plans to the detail. There was no talking needed and he went out silent like a lamb and they were dumbfounded.

This is not stated to start/add religion to this thread, but rather to point out that intentional and specifically guided silence and proper crafted comments are indeed a powerful tool. 

My suggestion is that you turn your frustrations not toward yourself, but toward the Out of the FOG toolbox and hone your skills and self protection even further, as well as delight in your growing skills and intelligence. 

SoT

[BettyGray]

I think I'm a reasonably intelligent woman. I have a college degree. I've lived alone, taken care of myself, been out of the country. I had a decent childhood (not perfect but not terribly awful.) I'm well-read, well-spoken, decently-cultured.
 

The issue I see with this statement lies in yourtrying to understand things from a rational, intellectual/analytical standpoint. It will never work. It took me years to figure this out. Try not to focus on what you think you’re doing wrong and why he isn’t responding to you in the way you want.

Instead realize that you are merely the dart board for his self-loathing. PDs project like crazy, so imagine he is shouting at himself. It may hurt you a little less in the long run.

I realize in the moment when someone is raging at you, it takes an enormous amount of self-control to not get emotional and sucked into the chaos.

I used to try standing up for myself, too, but I was going about it the wrong way. As SonofThunder said, JADE-ing doesn’t work. It will only drive you closer to crazy town. I saw PD reactions as disrespectful toward me. They were, but I was still seeking approval and respect from those who don’t respect themselves.

I also had to examine if I was showing myself enough respect. Over time, the biggest act of self-respect was walking away from lose-lose, unhealthy conversations and relationships.

We tend to attract that with which we are familiar. Even if it’s abusive. Our “normal” may be much worse than we initially thought.

Give yourself a break. PD rages can come out of nowhere. Anyone would be thrown off balance, no matter how strong or self-possessed. These situations ARE manageable. You just need have a prepared response to the rages, and absolutely refuse to let things escalate. By having a response ready, you won’t have to think on your feet, it will be automatic. It’s a way of standing firm, respecting yourself, and will give you a minute to gather your composure.

Maybe something like:

- “I am not doing this right now.  If we can’t speak in reasonable terms, without raised voices, I am not engaging.”

or

“I won’t allow you to speak to me this way.” Then leave.   

By getting sucked in, we are basically telling them it’s ok for them to treat us this way.

We get triggered without even knowing it. Emotions take over, our thinking become irrational, and then positive healthy conversation goes out the window. Recognize this as a scientific fact - there’s nothing wrong  with you. Humans sense danger and they react, without  thinking, in order to protect themselves.

We just have to learn that in order to protect ourselves, we have to master making ourselves feel safe in unsafe situations. Whether it’s taking a deep breath before responding, walking away, medium chill, or saying absolutely nothing while they vent, we must find what grounds us in the face of destabilization. My T suggested associating a physical object with staying grounded. Engaging with the tangible world gets us out of our heads long enough to gather our bearings. It can be anything that engages one or all of your five senses. What worked for me when I felt triggered by something was a small vial of lemongrass essential oil. I associated it with calmness, so when I smelled it my body relaxed, allowing the fight/flight/freeze response to be overwhelmed by the present, real world moment .

Trust me, with PDs it isn’t personal, no matter how counterintuitive that sounds. Loved ones are easy targets for their self-hatred and vitriol. Their damage is theirs alone, and walking away from harmful instances is an act of self-preservation.

[SparkStillLit]

Ah. That's why knitting works. Sight, touch, sound, and I guess yarn has a scent, too.
Clickety clickety clack and I don't really hear the yickety yickety yack! 😆

[BefuddledClarity]

I think I'm a reasonably intelligent woman. I have a college degree. I've lived alone, taken care of myself, been out of the country. I had a decent childhood (not perfect but not terribly awful.) I'm well-read, well-spoken, decently-cultured.
 

The issue I see with this statement lies in you trying to understand things from a rational, intellectual/analytical standpoint. It will never work. It took me years to figure this out. Try not to focus on what you think you're doing wrong and why he isn't responding to you in the way you want.

Instead realize that you are merely the dart board for his self-loathing. PDs project like crazy, so imagine he is shouting at himself. It may hurt you a little less in the long run.

I realize in the moment when someone is raging at you, it takes an enormous amount of self-control to not get emotional and sucked into the chaos.

I used to try standing up for myself, too, but I was going about it the wrong way. As SonofThunder said, JADE-ing doesn't work. It will only drive you closer to crazy town. I saw PD reactions as disrespectful toward me. They were, but I was still seeking approval and respect from those who don't respect themselves.

I also had to examine if I was showing myself enough respect. Over time, the biggest act of self-respect was walking away from lose-lose, unhealthy conversations and relationships.

We tend to attract that with which we are familiar. Even if it's abusive. Our "normal" may be much worse than we initially thought.

Give yourself a break. PD rages can come out of nowhere. Anyone would be thrown off balance, no matter how strong or self-possessed. These situations ARE manageable. You just need have a prepared response to the rages, and absolutely refuse to let things escalate. By having a response ready, you won't have to think on your feet, it will be automatic. It's a way of standing firm, respecting yourself, and will give you a minute to gather your composure.

Maybe something like:

- "I am not doing this right now.  If we can't speak in reasonable terms, without raised voices, I am not engaging."

or

"I won't allow you to speak to me this way." Then leave.   

By getting sucked in, we are basically telling them it's ok for them to treat us this way.

We get triggered without even knowing it. Emotions take over, our thinking become irrational, and then positive healthy conversation goes out the window. Recognize this as a scientific fact - there's nothing wrong  with you. Humans sense danger and they react, without  thinking, in order to protect themselves.

We just have to learn that in order to protect ourselves, we have to master making ourselves feel safe in unsafe situations. Whether it's taking a deep breath before responding, walking away, medium chill, or saying absolutely nothing while they vent, we must find what grounds us in the face of destabilization. My T suggested associating a physical object with staying grounded. Engaging with the tangible world gets us out of our heads long enough to gather our bearings. It can be anything that engages one or all of your five senses. What worked for me when I felt triggered by something was a small vial of lemongrass essential oil. I associated it with calmness, so when I smelled it my body relaxed, allowing the fight/flight/freeze response to be overwhelmed by the present, real world moment .

Trust me, with PDs it isn't personal, no matter how counterintuitive that sounds. Loved ones are easy targets for their self-hatred and vitriol. Their damage is theirs alone, and walking away from harmful instances is an act of self-preservation.

Not the original poster, but this comment made me reflect and was very beneficial to me. I find myself JADEing with partner and your analogies and explanation has helped me better understand how to handle the situation.

[ToAudrey]

Someone mentioned Freeze response and that is what I found I did. I was (working on it) very codependent, people pleasing, and just freeze/froze when someone is unhappy and it might be my fault in any way at all. The toolbox helped A LOT. Someone else mentioned JADE and when I looked at it I was doing that a lot. Making myself insane trying to explain over and over what I meant when I didn't say things "right". I have a Masters degree and am very articulate in my work setting.

Hey Spark..knitter here too! And I quilt so the sewing machine helps with noise dampening. 

[CagedBirdSinging]

Hi TooLiteral, I feel the same. I'm smart, and well educated.. but when stbxpdH used to rant at me, I completely shut down. That was while we were living together. Since leaving last month, I am finding that I can stand up for myself better in conversations with him. I can plan a time that suits me to talk on the phone, and I have pages of notes in front of me for each phone call. I am able to say things I couldn't have said while living with him, for fear of his reaction.

As others have suggested, I think this 'rabbit in the headlights' reaction can be traced back to family of origin. My parents might not be pd exactly, but they just hate each other!! They have been fighting and bickering ever since I was a tiny kid. If I ever spoke up and asked them to stop, they would turn on me and accuse me of being too sensitive. I was basically TAUGHT to keep my mouth shut. My mum sometimes criticises me for not standing up to pdH... but I was conditioned not to stand up to ANYONE. I was forced to pretend everything was 'normal,' and I lived in horror of friends finding out the truth about what was going on at home. One reason I found the strength to leave stbx is that I don't want my children growing up with that fear. I want them to be able to stand up to anyone - including me!

Also, on another level when you are not used to being spoken to in such an abusive way (I'd never been sworn at before I met pdH), there is also a tendency to freeze. It's normal to feel that way - it is your brain telling you this is not normal and not acceptable. Hold onto that gut instinct! The fact you recognise this shows your self awareness and emotional intelligence.

Sending you strength x

[BettyGray]

BefuddledClarity,

I am so glad I could help! These situations are very triggering and difficult to manage, but it can be done.

SparkStillLit, I love this!

Ah. That's why knitting works. Sight, touch, sound, and I guess yarn has a scent, too.
Clickety clickety clack and I don't really hear the yickety yickety yack! 😆

[Happytobefree]

Instead realize that you are merely the dart board for his self-loathing. PDs project like crazy, so imagine he is shouting at himself. It may hurt you a little less in the long run.

I am a dart board for his self loathing. Wow!  This really hit home.

[tragedy or hope]

IMO...I think AoD has the clearest perspective for the immediate situation. Things and people do not change overnight. This includes us. Until you can get your feet on the ground the suggestions are very helpful and will begin to shield and comfort.

The work unfortunately needs to be done by us as we come Out of the FOG. It is a good thing because in process we find ourselves our strength and our principles. Some of us even keep the relationships because we learn to navigate the mental illness. I do not believe in throw away people.

Be kind to yourself and realize not all things work for all people. Find your space and your way of coping or not in these pages. Because you ARE intelligent, you will learn principles that will help you in all of life. You are giving this to yourself. Anything worth having is worth working for.

[ploughthrough2021]

You can't convince a NPD that there's other ways of doing things other than their way. From 30 years of experience with my uNPDW. Just talk to someone else about it.