DH Not Protecting my DD from Bad Guy

[Dinah-sore]

Trigger Warning-groping

One more post today, about a year and a half ago I posted on here because my oldest DD was groped intentionally in a swimming pool, by her friends' older brother (3 years older than my dd who was about 13 or just turned 14 when this happened). The boy squeezed her breast, smirked at her, then said, "Oops, sorry." As if he was going to pretend it was an accident, but she knew he meant it. Then he was following her around church, and church camp. She ended up leaving camp early because he wouldn't leave her alone. (My husband was there, and he knew the situation, and at first he told her to ignore this boy and focus on God, and "don't let the enemy rob you of what God wants to say to you."---so basically, if you leave early, you are missing out on what God wants to do in your life).

She called me, who was at home with the other little ones. I was immediately on board with her coming home. I was like, "Girl, God can speak to you anywhere, and maybe he wants you to know that you matter and your safety is important to him." So she came home.

At the time, I remember being on here complaining because my DH wouldn't do anything about the incident, I begged him to do something (anything), he didn't, not as a father, not as a church/school employee in charge of the youth that my daughter and this guy are apart of. So he just waited. Nothing happened. I think he knew at the time that my dd would just eventually stop complaining, and he could get away with just pretending like he was "thinking about" what to do. At the time my DD didn't know if she wanted me to talk to the boy or the family, without her dad's support. So I didn't know what to do. But now I regret not doing it.

Last weekend, my DD comes to talk to me. She was being super open and honest and trusting and she said to me that it is hard for her when she goes to church because this boy is on the "worship team" and that she can't worship God when he is on the team because she just keeps seeing his face smirking at her after he groped her. This broke my heart. I am angry FOR her. I am angry ALONG SIDE of her.

The thing is, my DH is the boss of that area of the church because he is an administrator at the school connected to the church. My husband CHOOSES which students are on the worship team. My husband approved of this guy to be on the worship team. After my DD told me how she felt I sat down to talk to my husband about it, I thought it would be a big deal to him (considering how religious he is) that I said, "She can't worship God without being triggered with flashbacks. It is hindering her walk. She feels like she doesn't matter. And this guy is walking around acting godly and people think he is this amazing guy."

My DH didn't say much. But he said that the boy was going to stay on the team. That he "can't" kick him off for something that happened so long ago, and he "can't" talk to him or  the parents now because too much time has passed.

So I was careful not to nag, or manipulate. But I did press in a bit, I brought up some instances where people where kicked off the team for less. In fact, one boy was just "talked to" because he was getting too flirtacious with someone (another boy), and my DH sat him down to "talk to" him----and this boy did NOTHING WRONG!!!!! Poor kid! Last night my husband was talking to another worship leader about this new girl who sings well, but is still getting the hang of the guitar. He said, "I don't know if she is a good influence on the other girls." This made me so upset. I was rude. I said, "Did she sexually assault anyone though?"

My DD is upset with him. She just wants to see something done--to be honest, she wants him off the team--but she would be happy if her dad made any attempt to look like he cared. He doesn't even talk to her like he cares. In fact, she snapped at him because she said, "you want to talk to someone who you think "might" be gay, but you won't talk to this guy who hurt me?" (my dd is very affirming of her gay friends). When she said this, my DH got so mad and he yelled at her and said, "NO! I am NOT taking him off the team!" And I had to tell him, "Dude, you have said NOTHING else to her in support or protection of her. All she hears from you is what you just yelled at her."

I told him, please think about this. She will never forget how you handle this. You are going to give her resentment towards you and even church. I told him, "Look, I am not trying to control you like my BPDm does my dad, but you have to do something, anything. If you do nothing, she will think she is worthless."

At this point I am trying to figure out what I can do. I know if I go to the family it won't go well, they don't like my DD anymore, but WHO CARES. I want to do whatever my DD needs me to do, because she deserves to be stood up for. Am I way off?

So this is where I am at. All of this put together, him refusing to let me take my DD to the doctor for ADHD, refusing to take me to the ER when my other child is having seizures, then acting like they are no big deal, being gone all the time, not doing anything thoughtful for me on special holidays, birthdays, and our anniversary, being emotionally abusive, scornful, mocking, sarcastic, belittling, gaslighting, but being "MR. CHARMING" to everybody else at church (especially the pretty young ladies).

And I just am at my wits end. I need to hear some thoughts on this. My gut is telling me that this is just too much, but what if I am the one causing the problems? I need to get out of this feeling of being trapped by him, learned helplessness, "the stupid submissions", etc. And my church would say that I am the bad partner for not wanting to just mindlessly submit.

[Dinah-sore]

At the very least, can I say, "His behavior, words and actions seem to indicate that he does not have my children's best interests at heart." ?

[Poison Ivy]

Yes.  I'm horrified by your husband's behavior.  I do not think you are in the wrong at all.

[Dinah-sore]

One more quick thing, some backstory. This isn't the first time DH refused to protect us from sexual assault/abuse. I was groped repeatedly over time by one of his family members, I begged DH to protect me. He didn't. He "forced" me to continue to be around this person for the sake of the "big happy family" myth. This same person is also a pedophile, who was preying on my children (and quite a few other peoples). When we were at events my DH would ditch us and I would have to try to corral my toddlers into one area where I could watch them, and I would have to physically get in between this family member and my children, for HOURS it was him trying to grab, hold, hug my kids. And me having to smile politely and push him away, and stand in between him and my kids. Knowing that he has already groped me repeatedly, in rooms full of people, looking me in the eye, and probably would grope my children in rooms full of people, if I didn't stand in between them. He even admitted to me that he was a pedophile, but that he went to therapy and he is "all better now, and wants to see my kids." He never molested my children, but ONLY because I physically prevented it. He also used to stalk us in public, and harass us, growl at us, pretend like he was going to attack us ("pretend" or maybe not "pretend"). My DH put all the blame on me just needing to not rock the boat. DH wouldn't talk to the guy, or defend us, or tell him to stop or anything. It was torture. I didn't know I could say no, until I found this page. And then I told my DH that I refused to be around that guy and my kids are not allowed around him. Now I am the blacksheep scapegoat of the family, and I am completely NC with all of his family, because I said no and they came unglued. So this isn't the first time, and my feelings from the past are combining with the feelings from the present.

[D.Dan]

Dinah.... You obviously have a very strong moral compass. Right from wrong. And it seems to be bumping excessively against the mental programming you've had all your life, in several areas of your life.

I'm not gonna lie, this sucks. This sucks big time. I'm sorry you're facing this. It's soooo hard. But... you have choices. You have options. You just have to be strong enough to reach for them.... because no one else can do that in your place. You can refuse to pretend that your locked in a room with no way out while your daughter cries for help. You can refuse to do nothing because in reality, you CAN do something. That is a choice you can make.

When my uPDex stopped considering me and the kids as part of our household, that's when he stopped being the head of it. He wasn't making many choices to our benefit only his own. I started to choose to take MY power back. I stopped lying to myself and instead of telling myself I couldn't do anything, I told myself I was choosing to do nothing (btw this is hard to do and very painful but it did help to reinforce my decisions). I chose to do what me and my kids needed done in our lives. I chose to do things that benefited all of us instead of blindly doing whatever my ex wanted. I chose our very important issues over my ex's superficial whims.

Sadly in my case, it also meant that I would eventually choose to divorce him to protect me and our kids from him (his abusive behaviours were becoming more frequent, excessive, and more dangerous to us as time went on). I do not regret this decision.

I feel it's not my place to tell you what to do with your husband or church/religion, those are very personal choices you MUST make yourself because you and your kids are the ones who'll feel the consequences. So I'm trying very hard not to cross that line.

The only thing I can say is your feelings are spot on, and that the truth is you CAN do something in this situation but only you can decide if the consequences are worth it. I'm sorry you have to face this though 

[Poison Ivy]

 

[1footouttadefog]

Yes what others have said.

That he will not protect their health or protect their dignity and purity is horrible.

That he finds such sexual abuses tolerable while being part of a church that is judgemental and or legalistic about such at the same time makes me wonder what his core values are.

He has devalued you and these kids.  They are not as important as the role he plays and the false image he wants to prop up.

Perhaps you could visit another church or a Bible study group to get some outside nourishment and support.

I would spend some important time with the kids and be honest with them about your disappointment in your h's response.  Perhaps pray with then for H.

[Fae Greenwood]

So it's still going on.

I'm assuming that you're in a Christian church. If not, please excuse this post.

Back in the 80's and 90's, when my kids were small, there was a strong movement in the evangelical church that marriage was entirely under the control of the wife. Lip service was paid to the husband's responsibility, but the message was clear. If a husband wasn't participating emotionally in the marriage the wife could "love" him back into full relationship, that if he cheated on her it was because of her inadequacy, that if he was distant or mean it was her behavior that introduced that into the marriage and it was up to her and her alone to fix it.

Wow, did that make the PD men happy.

By the way, there was a similar movement that if you were sick, it was because you'd let Satan into your life so your cancer was your own fault. Ignore the cancer, ignore the pain, and God would heal you. As a result many people did seek out medical treatment but their families demanded that they not receive pain treatment because that was allowing recognition of the disease. Since the preventable death and pain became obvious really fast and hit men and women alike, this faded in less than 20 years. This was a fairly widespread error in evangelical churches and scarred survivors badly. Both ideas (health and marriage) are that you have absolute control over your life and failure is always your fault. For non-Christians information. this is not biblical and is a complete lie.

This submission idea was, of course, often touted by well-meaning people who believed what they'd been taught about the Bible and then shared this with people they believed were well-meaning people also. NPs are NOT well-meaning. Christian submission is supposed to go both ways, with each spouse looking out for the needs and desires of the other. When the wife is solely responsible for the ENTIRETY OF THE MARRIAGE, it is a free ride for the husband and the wife becomes a slave to his whims. Churches without women in leadership tend to promote wifely submission more because the people running the ministry get all the benefits and don't have to pay the cost. I never embraced this as my responsibility but I tried. My uNPDh didn't listen to my reasonable complaints so maybe I could do something to improve the marriage. When I couldn't do it anymore was when my husband told me he'd had a flirtation at work, asked her to "go for it," was rejected, and wanted me to help him be happy by teaching him how to attract other women for sex. That was the big jolt shoving me Out of the FOG.

If you're interested in a book about the value of women to God, I suggest "Beyond Sex Roles" by Bilezikian. My church leadership, to their amazing and wonderful credit, was so disturbed by this one-sided submission that they used this as a bible study.

Oh, and how are narcissists grown up so big and strong? By letting them get away with breaking the rules because we don't want them to feel bad or be hurt or have any negative repercussion from THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR. And blame the woman too. Good luck.

[1footouttadefog]

Yup, in such churches the wives are to be sweet, submissive and sexually available at all times. 

If you did confess marriage issues to your fellow women, they would tell you everything you needed to fix about yourself.  You could leave such a meeting feeling great about yourself. 

I know a woman who went through such.  She totally changed to what they suggested and it made it all worse.  For example she started wearing very conservative long dresses and keeping her hair up.  Well her narc wanted her to be a hotti so he would look better.

[capybara]

Dinah, i read this post and the ones about medical care and i trust your instincts. You must protect your children.

Your husband is a neglectful and abusive father.

You can take the kids and stay with a friend or relative without deciding to leave forever.

I recommend the book "Boundaries", if you haven't read it yet. I did a post for you on the Committed to Working on it board.

Wishing health and safety to you and your kids.

[Dinah-sore]

Wow, I thank you all for your comments, although I must admit I found them a little hard to read. I felt myself getting defensive. I wanted to write back, "hey wait a minute, I got her to the ER despite him, and I am fighting with him every day to get him to do the right thing with the sexual assault incident. I am trying so hard. Please don't think that they should take my kids away from me."

But then I realized that what I was reading was a strong emotional response to what is happening. Which is what I asked for. I asked for your thoughts. Because I am confused.

But please know that the reason I asked is because I am so freaking overwhelmed and confused. I am at the rock bottom of my marriage. And I have for the last three days been constantly thinking if I should pursue a divorce. I am unhappy in my marriage. But that doesn't matter, my kids are what matters, and my kids are why I am unhappy with my marriage.

So I can look at your responses, and think "okay, wow, look at how people are responding to these scenarios. This IS serious. This is horrifying. This IS something that I need to deal with, with all the courage and boldness I can find inside of me."

There is a point where, as you have pointed out, I can't just blame him for being the way he is. I need to either leave him and raise my kids, or do something to get him to change. Obviously, talking to him, giving him articles, giving him videos, asking for other people's advice--all of that which feels like taking action--is still not helping. I can't change him. I might need to leave him.

Please understand, I have absolutely NO ONE in my real life that I can talk to about any of this. I was raised by a BPDm. I am codependent. I have C-PTSD. I am not yet able to look at these situations and trust my gut. I trust it enough to fight for the safety of the kids (and I have done so, but it is a constant battle with him over it). But I haven't been able to figure out how to resolve my husband's issues. If I went to anyone I know I would get the classic church stuff, "You need to just pray and trust God, and wait." or "The devil is trying to ruin your family. Don't let the devil ruin your family." Nobody would tell me, your husband is abusive you need to leave (or separate, or x,y,z).

You guys are it.

So I value your input, and I will take it to heart. I just need some validation. I need someone to look at what I am typing and say, "Yes, that is horrible. Do something."

I need to stop waiting for anyone in my real life to give me permission to stand up to him.

I hope this all makes sense.

Thank you all for your responses.

[Stillirise]

Dinah,
This really is a horrible situation, and I'm sorry you're faced with it.  I think you have been incredibly strong, in taking the steps you have, and in reaching out here.  Many of us here know this isn't easy, especially when dealing with such a thick layer of FOG.

For what it's worth, one conclusion I have recently come to is I probably should have been listening to my instincts all along.  I suppressed many things, thinking I was being irrational, or overreacting. I now realize I was actually just allowing the problems to pile up.

Also, have you checked out the religious and spiritual discussions board? I have read some posts there that may help you work though your thoughts on the state of the marriage. If your husband isn't fully honoring his commitment to you and your family, does God say, "Sorry Dinah, that's the lot you've drawn. You still have to uphold your vows."?   

I'm also so sorry you don't have anyone IRL to reach out to.   You are right, though, no one else can give you permission to do what you think is best for yourself and your daughters.  Although, I would like to remind you, while you can't control the actions of others, no one else, except you, can control your own actions, and your response to others' actions.

[Medowynd]

I recommend Luke 173 ministries.  This website offers help for women in abusive family relationships. 

I was married to a man that thought I should call him lord, like Sara called Abraham lord.  I said that heck with that.  But that is only one example of his use of Christianity to force me to do his will.  This included Eph 5:22-24, or 1Peter 3:1, wives be in subjection to your husbands to win them without a word.  Yes I heard all of that from the PD ex.  I left when my daughter was not quite 2-years-old.  This was after hearing that I was mentally ill, not worth 2 cents, my opinion and desires held no weight because I was a woman, etc. 

You cannot change your husband.  He is happy with his position at work and the authority that he holds at church.  There is no incentive to change, because he knows that his church will back him 100%.  I recommend that you find a therapist that is in no way associated with your church or your particular denomination. 

[xredshoesx]

i'm in this thread have removed several posts and am in the process of moderating

telling someone they are gonna go to jail if they don't leave their husband b/c of what is happening in the home-  it's putting more on the shoulders of someone who is also being  abused in the situation and is never an appropriate response to ANYONE in crisis on this site.

[D.Dan]

I also didn't have people in rl to support me/help me (at least, I thought I didn't) so instead I reached out to others.

This is very scary but so worth it. It is hard to override the mental programming to seek help outside of the disfunction.

I've received support from my family doctor, counsellor, disability services worker, teachers and aides at my kids schools (one was an ABA preschool), and mostly from CPS ( which is called CFS here).

Child protective services didn't WANT to apprehend my kids because that's quite traumatizing to the children by itself, but it WAS their job to make sure they were safe. They provided me with the info for the dv advocates I ended up getting help from and the homeless shelter I actually ended up going to (I didn't think I would actually flee to a shelter with my kids).

I didn't know who to get help from and I didn't know what to do, so I started sharing with people in support positions for possible information/help. It worked.

I hope this helps 

[Penny Lane]

Dinah-sore,


I'm sorry that you're hearing that you're doing something wrong, because that is NOT what I see. At all.

I see you, having been dealt a really rough hand with your FOO and again with your husband, rising heroically to the occasion of protecting your kids. Over and over you've done what D.Dan says and overridden your mental programming to make sure your children get what they need, despite your FOO not teaching you the skills to do so and your husband actively working against you. That is amazing!

I agree with what everyone is saying about your husband -- he is acting badly toward you and getting in the way of your kids' well-being in a variety of ways. I think your life and your kids lives would be way, way better without him, your church, his family, etc. You could make room in your life for people who wouldn't try to force you to stay in an abusive relationship, who would be solidly on your team. Your girls would get space to be themselves, without any gropers, and get the health care they need.

What is stopping you from trying to separate? Is it that you're not sure if you want to, or you're not sure if you can do it?

On the first one, only you can answer that. Really listen to your gut. Your gut is telling you all the right things -- it's the external input  (like your husband's statements and the teachings from his church) that are leading you astray, I think.

On the second point, I know I'm just one person on the internet but I really think you can do it. I've seen such incredible strength from all these things you've done for your kids, you really can do this too.

There's another reason many people don't want to leave and that's safety concerns. You know your safety level better than anyone here. Here is a safety checklist for leaving, if that ever becomes helpful.

Whatever you decide, your daughters are lucky to have you on their side, fighting for them all the time.

[Poison Ivy]

 

[bloomie]

Dinah-sore - I am truly heartbroken for you and your dear children that this atmosphere of risk is swirling around you and that it is being spiritualized. You have unearthed something vital in your position here. Due to the passivity of her father and the refusal to advocate for her your daughter's ability to connect with THE source of comfort, pure love, peace, and grace has been taken away. That is what spiritual abuse does. It disconnects us from God and that is the ultimate loss. You see this and the sexual abuse and neglect and inexplicable passivity of your H in the midst of it all and you are with her and have been with her and your children in circumstances you didn't cause and are grappling with.

I want to offer you hope. I am adult woman who has experienced similar things and all it took was one person believing me, standing with me, imperfectly and to the best of their ability, to galvanize my own inner strength to get out of a spiritually abusive church atmosphere and eventually to break free from those who were taking undue and inappropriate authority over myself and other females and incorrectly applying Biblical truths to suit their misogynistic religious paradigm. You are doing that for you daughter and you have physically put yourself in between your children and a predator. You. Are. Fierce!!!!!!!!!

It sounds like you need an advocate too dear Dinah.  I would suggest you begin by talking with a domestic violence counselor who will be coming from a perspective that is first and foremost safety for you and your children and then in time, recovery from what I imagine are literally hundreds of moments - big and small, when you and your children's wellbeing was not even a consideration to those who have been called to love and protect you all. I believe you have only given us the tip of the iceberg here and that you have been under great duress, confusion, and angst for a very long time.

Your situation is truly complex and needs in real life, ongoing, long term support and wise council from neutral 3rd parties who do not have any agenda but your best interests. Breaking free and getting to solid ground where everyone is considered is going to be a journey that you need real life people to help you with. We can and will continue to support you here, but what we can offer is limited as an online support forum.

I want to offer some resources for your consideration:

Domestic Violence Hotline where you can speak with a counselor immediately:

https://www.thehotline.org

The work of Mary DeMuth has been sentinel in my own life. Her many books, her podcast, and she offers a free series on recovering from sexual abuse I highly recommend. She gets the link between sexual abuse and spiritual abuse better than anyone I have ever encountered and has lived the journey of having been betrayed by her father.

https://www.marydemuth.com

This has been a tough thread for you and honestly, for the community as so many of us are survivors of abuse and are hyper vigilant and triggered when thinking of you and your children at risk.

Please understand where that fighting spirit is coming from and that it is all we can offer you and we wish it could be so much more in terms of help, and we will sometimes do that imperfectly and more strongly when what you most seem to need is affirmation that yes, what you describe here with your H is serious character issues and an abject failing of his mandate to protect and care for his family as Christ loves us all - with tender mercies, and compassion, and gentle grace - with fierce protections and advocacy even unto death.

You are taking steps every day. Important steps to clarify and break through the FOG that is so confusing when surrounded by a religious system and living with a climate of religious and psychological humiliation and invalidation. We are with you. One step at a time Dinah!

[capybara]

Dinah, if my post felt critical to you, I apologize. I do believe that your internal voice is strong and your instincts are good. I can't imagine how hard it must be to feel that you don't have support from IRL people.

I do believe that you can and will protect your children, even if right now protecting yourself feels impossible. You are already fighting for the children and winning. You can keep doing that.

You are strong and loving and you have support here.

[all4peace]

I want to second everything Bloomie said, thank capybara for the grace in this most recent post, and add that Focus on the Family has great support systems also, including by-phone access to a counselor that comes from a Christian perspective and does NOT advocate for the type of authoritarian stance your H is taking, Dinah.

You are strong. Your instincts are good and I do believe that along with our support of you on this forum you do need in-real-life support. It sounds like your faith community is adding to the load, so I would also advocate for counseling since it seems your church may not be a safe resource at this point in time. There is the possibility of finding phone or on-line counseling if that's what's workable for you right now.

Keep coming back. And good for you for finding your voice, and good for all of us when we can step back, realize we've accidentally triggered another and try to do the repair work. This is a learning and growing process for all of us.