The whole technology thing has been an ongoing saga since day one, over 7 years ago.
The latest is this.
UNPD exH and his uNPD wife gave ds13 an iphone for christmas last week.
They've given him strict instructions to not give me the access code.
They've set it up so they can track where his phone is while he is with me. (Invasion of my and his privacy.)
They've also set it up so that the message contents don't appear on his home screen unless he is looking at it. (Face recognition)
The phone has 15g of data.
So I can't keep an eye on his messages or search history etc..
He doesn't actually need a phone yet with me as he never travels alone. In a year or 2 he'll likely start using public transport to go between the houses so he'll need it then.
He has an older iphone at my place that I provided. It has no data and it doesn't go to his dad's. He plays games, watches youtube (through wifi) and texts and calls his friends and uNPD dad and uNPD smumfrom that phone when he's with me.
I have been checking the messages he's been sending/receiving on the older phone but now he'll be using his new phone instead - that I have no access to.
I'd like to just say not to bring his new phone to my place but I fear that would just be playing the pds' games and it would upset ds.
Ironically, I so far have not had any difficulties with his friends' messages. They are a good bunch of kids.
It's his uNPD smum's messages I have trouble with. They are very passive agressive and critical of me. Plus she just can't go a day without contacting him and expecting him to reply and have full text conversations.
He starts at a new school at the end of this month. So, new friends who I don't know.
What should I do? Should I refuse to have the new phone at my house? Afterall, he wouldn't miss out on anything if I did refuse. He can actually do more on the phone he has at my place.
If I refuse to have the new phone at my place the pds will likely then block me from it and only allow him and me to text each other via their phones again.
That wouldn't make much difference as they will be reading our messages on his phone anyway. And I'm always careful to not mention them or write anything other than the weather etc.. Not great, but at least I'm in contact with him.
Technology is such a fabulous manipulation tool for narcs, don't you think?
AOD
Yes, it certainly is a lovely tool for manipulation.
I'd let him use his new phone and just try to defuse the situation by acting uninterested. They are expensive and delicate things and it's a huge responsibility for a 13 yo. I'd be nervous for him honestly and let him know he can use his old phone for all the games and contacting his friends and can leave the new expensive one at home when he is out and about with you. The old phone can still be used as long as it is on wifi for most, if not all things and it is likely not going to be catastrophic if he drops it or loses it.
N's are all about control and his NSmom is about to find out that 13 yo boys are not much fun to try to control.
As far as the text messages, I'd let your DS know exactly that you know his Smom texts mean things about you and anytime he wants to share with you it is safe and you can help him and you will not be hurt but are more concerned that things are being said. Basically, he is going to have to learn to navigate this r/s with her and you can support him in learning how to do that. Also, letting him know that you have no interest in reading his messages and that you have no idea why his Dad and Smom are so paranoid will let him know that you are very much aware of their manipulations.
Thanks, Latchkey.
I've always, since the day we got the old phone, made it clear to ds that I would be reading his messages. So he already knows.
I just have rarely said anything to him about them as
1. The exchanges between him and his friends are fine and
2. The relationship he and I have is good so I felt it best to not bring up the uNPD smum's bad messages. She's trying to drive a wedge between ds and me and if I bring up the messages it's playing into her hands.
I'm really inclined to just say the new phone is not to come to my place. He simply doesn't need it.
But I am interested in how others on Out of the FOG handle all this technology stuff between two homes.
AOD
I would simply refuse to have the phone at your house during the times DS is with you. Or, you can shut it off. There's no reason for them to track him and his activities with you. End of story. When does he move in with them?
i don't want to come off as overly paranoid, but there are other types of tracking apps that could have been installed on his new phone that even he isn't aware of. Right after I moved out of the marital home, I started wondering about location trackers, microphones, eavesdropping. This is around the time that stbx was demanding to the court that he have access to my new home so he could inspect it and make sure it was "suitable" for the kids to live in. He's the type of PD that needs to know everything that's going on with me (and the kids) and wouldn't think twice about using the kids' devices to track us.
Some of the suggestions I saw online were to put the phone in a shoebox and put the shoebox in a cabinet/closet/garage and leave it there for the duration of the visit. If DS needs to check his messages or make a phone call from his new phone, he can bring it out then, but it's home would be away in it's "special" box. I actually did this with the old phone that stbx had set up for me, before I was able to get my own phone.
I have let the kids know that I will have their access codes, but that I will not use them unless I feel that something is going on and I need to intervene, I've only had to check DS's phone once (stbx had been texting DS to tell him he was mentally ill just like he was). I've never had to check DD's phone.
I agree with Latchkey, the best thing to do is to let DS know you're aware of the tone/type of texts they send and that it doesn't hurt or bother you (even though it may), that you're more interested in how it affects him. This opens the door for him to approach you about them when (if) he's ready. It's also a great idea to act uninterested. This is what I do. It was really hard at first, but I can honestly say at this point I truly do not care what's being texted. I have been consistent and given the kids enough autonomy over the last two years (they were 11 and 14 at the time), that if something their dad said really bothers them, they will come to me to talk about it.
I believe it also really bothers stbx that I'm not concerned with the kids texting him. He wants me to be bothered, because when the kids are with him, he demands to know who they're texting and why. He will tell them to get off their phones if he thinks they're texting me. At my house (with phones he has had no access to) they are free to text whomever they want and I don't ask questions (unless they seem upset). They really notice the difference.
I know this will be hard, but be the nonjudgmental support system for your DS. Be his safe place for him to visit. As he gets older and more teenager-y, the PD's will have a more difficult time with trying to control him. It will be difficult, but he will know who has his back (you) and who is trying to manipulate him.
I don't know what you should do, but rather than say the phone can't come to your house, I would in fact invite it to my house and collect it when he arrives. "Let me have Mom's phone now, and here's ours." Turn it off and put it in a drawer. Return it on the next exchange day.
Mom explodes that he is not answering texts/calls while he is there? "Oh, we have a phone for him to use here. He can use yours when he is with you." Oh well.
Thank-you, everyone.
I told ds this morning that I don't want the phone at my place and not to bring it.
He wasn't happy about it but didn't argue and was back to his usual happy self when I dropped him back to his uNPD dad half an hour ago.
We agreed that his dad wouldn't be happy and that he'd probably no longer allow me to text ds via his new phone. (Back to only being allowed to text via the pds' phones. Probably.)
Thanks for the shoebox idea. I think I'll do that if the phone comes back.
Now...I await the inevitable raging email from uNPD exH telling me how terrible I am and as a result he's "had no choice but to block me from ds's new phone."
Sigh
AOD
AOD
Others here have great input, wish I would have thought of these approaches!
However, I don't blame you for not allowing the phone. My updxh has dangled the phone offer to 14DD a couple of times, she would mention it in conversation to me. My response was "dad can get you a phone if he wants but it won't come into this house." ( I have been surveilled by him in the past so this was a hill I was ready to die on. )
As I understand it, when parents divorce the obligation is to allow child access to contact the other parent when they need/want to. As long as you provide DS with means to do so when he is with you, you should be fine according to the court. If they block DS from calling/texting you on his new phone, and he must ask permission to use their phone to call/text you -
1) as you said, they will follow your communications with DS regardless
2) it will get old having to turn over their personal phone for DS to contact you
3) if they deny DS to use their device to contact you, that is very serious and courts do not like that
I would talk with DS and be upfront about your reasonings to refuse the phone. Explain you are not trying to keep him from contact with his dad but need to have a healthy boundary. He probably knows their motivations for giving the phone to him and it may relieve him now that you made the hard call (no pun intended). Make sure he understands that you trust him, just not others and keep an ongoing open dialogue with DS.
I agree with Whiteheron, ultimately you reserve the right to view anything on his phone at anytime you feel it is necessary (normal parental concerns about safety and well-being of a child). Ultimately, you set rules of phone use ie., time limits, app's, etc.
Alternatively, the phone could have an 'accident' at your home :laugh:
We have encountered this a bit recently as well. BM gave DSD14 a phone, and only BM is allowed to add contacts/access her phone besides DSD. I found out over the weekend that I am blocked from DSD's phone because BM never added me as a contact, so I can't call or text DSD or vice versa. We'll have to get this fixed, as that is not going to work when I am the one picking up DSD from places. We are NC with BM, so that is going to be tricky!
We know that BM is manipulating DSD via messages/calls that we don't hear or see. That's the reality, and whether BM does it via DSDs phone or in person, it's going to happen. We've honestly taken the approach to just ignore it, anything else will just push DSD more into her mother's enmeshed arms.
I think the location tracker is disturbing, and I totally would be creeped out by it. But, again, what information could they ever get from that data? And if they had something they felt was juicy, are they seriously going to stand in front of a judge and admit they tracked you and DS. That's a horrible violation of privacy, which most judges take very seriously.
Ok. So that didn't work.
Ds took the phone back to his uNPD dad's and told him I said not to bring it back.
It came back.
I had drafted an email to uNPD exH saying ds doesn't need the phone at my place as he already has one here and to please ensure it stays at his house.
I didn't send the email though as I figured ds13 might be able to communicate and settle it with his uNPD dad himself. I was hoping it would end there
Yeah. Nah.
So it's currently in a box, in a cupboard in another room.
Should I send the email to uNPD exH? If so should I change the wording?
Ds is asking me to sort it out with his dad as he doesn't want to be stuck in the middle.
Fair call.
AOD
Quote from: Associate of Daniel on January 11, 2020, 04:54:28 AM
Ok. So that didn't work.
Ds took the phone back to his uNPD dad's and told him I said not to bring it back.
It came back.
I had drafted an email to uNPD exH saying ds doesn't need the phone at my place as he already has one here and to please ensure it stays at his house.
I didn't send the email though as I figured ds13 might be able to communicate and settle it with his uNPD dad himself. I was hoping it would end there
Yeah. Nah.
So it's currently in a box, in a cupboard in another room.
Should I send the email to uNPD exH? If so should I change the wording?
Ds is asking me to sort it out with his dad as he doesn't want to be stuck in the middle.
Fair call.
AOD
I think it came back because DS's dad and wife were making sure he brought it so DS could be tracked. I like how you handled it. Leave it in the cupboard, shut off. Don't send an email, try to make it as much of a non-issue as possible. Every time son comes home with that phone, shut it off, put it in the cupboard. But don't give them the satisfaction of knowing it bothers you or they will really ramp that up. In 6 months, it will be something else they try to come up with, keep swatting them away and keep son out of it. I think you handled it perfectly.
I agree, leave X out of it. Just take the phone.
Asking him to change his behavior is NOT going to work. You can only control what the phone does at your house - off and locked up is good enough!
I agree with HotCocoa and Numb Lotus- best not to send the email. I think what you're doing is great. It's put away and out of sight.
In my case, saying anythig would only inflame stbx even more and he would become even more unstable. Let him feel like he's winning and things will calm down a little. Until the next thing, that is.
Thank-you, everyone for your advice.
This is such a mine field.
The latest: ds wants to only have the one phone as keeping text conversations with friends is hard with 2 phones.
I've said that he and his friends can set up the phones so that the 2 way conversations can be across 3 phones. But he says that one friend's phone isn't compatible.
My biggest concern, I think, is that I can't take photos of the messages that ds receives from his uNPD smum. I may need those photos for court. Of course ds doesn't know this.
My next concern is the tracking. I made him turn off the location services thingy today. He texted his uNPD smum to tell her and she wasn't happy, demanding (through ds) that I contact his uNPD dad to tell him and discuss it with him TODAY.
I did email uNPD exH (before I knew of uNPD smum's demand) and said that ds and I are slowly sorting out rules/boundries around the phone and that the location services are currently turned off.
I expected a raging email but didn't get one.
Seriously? I have to discuss it with him? What happened to him discussing it with me before he gave the rotten thing to ds in the first place?
This is so hard. I hate being the mean parent.
I hate the fact that the pds as usual get to dictate to me and use ds as a pawn to do so.
I'm so sick of having to compromise normal boundries to try to keep the peace.
I want to avoid communicating with uNPD exH on this. It will achieve absolutely nothing other than stress and drama.
I don't want that right now, as I deal with the grief of losing ds to them in a few weeks.
This is the pits.
AOD
Maybe set aside a time when ds can check his 'other' phone so that he doesn't miss out on friends?
It's perfectly acceptable to turn off location service when ds is with you. It can be turned back on when he goes back to their place.
Quote from: Associate of Daniel on January 14, 2020, 06:40:52 AM
I hate the fact that the pds as usual get to dictate to me and use ds as a pawn to do so.
I'm so sick of having to compromise normal boundries to try to keep the peace.
:yeahthat:
I feel this daily. I absolutely despise that it works this way.
My kid would give me endless grief over this but it doesn't matter. You do what you need to do, PERIOD.
I would not discuss anything about the phone with the other family. It's just creating conflict. Tbey aren't going to say, oh, gotcga, let's figure this out. Why do you need to notify them about turning off location?
And if you are stuck in a conversation on that I would not be on the defensive. "Why are you insisting on tracking our location? But why? No, but WHY?" No answer is good enough. "Safety" - "He's with us, we know where we are. WHY are you survielling us?" Not to get an answer but to make it clear it's not gonna fly.
Son can figure something out. Google Hangous, or just make do with texting his peeps "on this phone now" or whatever. He may not like it BUT IT'S FINE, hold FIRM.
Thanks again for your replies.
I think I've finally figured out how to cover all of ds's wants on the phone that I gave him. I can buy him a cheap sim card or prepaid sim.
The difficulty is the 13 year old attitude of 'stop treating me like a child. I'm entitled to my opinion. I'll do whatever I want." etc.
Any advice on what to say to him on that?
He will need his other phone when he starts travelling by public transport. I don't intend to have him doing that for a little while yet but it sounds like the pds will be pushing for it this year.
If I say no to the phone coming to my place now, the pds will likely then not allow ds to bring it here once he starts needing it.
So my hope is that it will come here, location services will be immediately turned off and the phone handed over to me to be hidden away for the length of ds's stay.
UNPD exH has sent an email asking what boundries/rules I've put in place and why location services are turned off.
Can anyone suggest some wording where I tell him all messaging is to be done on ds's other phone and location services will be turned off, without j.a.d.e. ing?
AOD
Well, I would ignore the question about the location thing. You don't have to explain a thing. If push comes to shive, make him explain to you why he cares so much. (And the answer is still no, it's turned off at your house).
As for your son, well. My daughter is 14 and no doormat. I'm happy to explain a lot to her and negotiate a lot but this I would also not get sucked into any argument or let myself be in the position of justifying it to her. This is how it is, period. It's not fair? Well, I guess not, oh well. It's going to cause all these problems? Well, I'm sure you'll figure it out. You're entitled to your opinion? Yes you are and I' e heard it. I'm treating you like a child? Well, fortunately I AM your mother. Unflappable.
She would hammer on it for a while and then give up except for the occasional gripe and I don't need to respond to it. She has actually let slip a couple of times that deep down she feels okay about some hard lines.
He's saying "stop treating me like a child. I'm entitled to my opinion. I'll do whatever I want" in response to you taking the phone away, right?
I would respond with questions. Why do you think I'm taking your phone away? Sure, you can have an opinion, what is your opinion? (I should be able to have any phone I want at any time I want). OK, I have heard your opinion. What is it that you want to do? Is there a way we can meet your goals and mine at the same time?
He probably will still end up being made, but it might get him thinking.
If you haven't shared with him your concerns about the location tracking - VERY briefly and just-the-facts-ma'am - I don't think it would be out of line to do so. Otherwise I think he's rightly wondering why you are taking this away from him.
On the email to your ex:
I turned of the location services because it's not appropriate for you and your wife to be able to track DS during my parenting time. I haven't decided on rules for the phone but if there is something that would affect your decision making I will share it with you.
This is only if you feel like you need to respond - it's fine to not respond as well.
The response would probably be a raging email about the tracking thing and a demand to share every rule you apply immediately - and I'm of the mind that you never need to respond to raging emails.
Maybe "I'll take your opinion into consideration, but at this time this is how I want to handle this situation". This will give you room to change your mind if you want when/if he starts using public transport.
And if he says he's afraid his friends who text him on the N phone won't know how to contact him if he puts that phone away at your house, maybe you can set up an automated response on the N phone that says "I am at my mom's. Please message me on my other phone". I have no idea how to do that, but I know some people who set up an automated response while driving, so there may be to be a way to do it.
IMO the N parents wan to make this an issue, so if you're not giving in to what they want ,they will probably find a way to upset him about it. I really sorry this is happening. :(
I am so frustrated and stressed about this. I've been close to tears all day.
Ds is resisting so much each time I try to set a boundry with the phone.
The ironic thing is that he's hardly using it. The pds have set it so that he can't play games on it, unlike the one I provided for him.
It's holidays here though, so he's using the phones more than usual.
I thought today that this might be another thing I have to let go for the sake of my relationship with ds.
He is quite responsible. In fact today the child restrictions that the pds set on his phone somehow switched off. He immediately contacted them to reset them and he told me. Of course, I don't have the security code so I can't do anything about it. The irony is blinding. They'll probably blame me...
Anyway, just like I've had to let him go and live with the pds, I think I might have to give in on this one too, and hopefully our relationship will last a little longer.
I am going to insist on the location services being turned off and when not in use the phone will be turned off.
I think the timing of this is part of the problem.
I'm not really coping with having to hand ds over to the pds next week and all I can see is him drinking the uNPD smum's koolaid and him soon going NC with me as a result.
I've struggled for over 7 years with being denied the chance to be a proper mum and now it's being completely ripped away from me.
She'll be helping him with homework. She'll be doing his laundry. She'll be taking him to medical appointments. She's already all over his sport (she's team manager and coach.)
His uNPD father gladly lets her do it all. She does it to make herself look good to everyone else.
Thank-you for all of your support and advice. I'm so frustrated that I can't seem to act upon it. I guess I'm weak. I just don't have it in me to fight the uNPDs on it and I can't bear the conflict with ds.
I need time to grieve.
AOD
:bighug:
You're allowed to choose what's worth fighting over and this is definitely not a hill you need to die on.
AOD:
Maybe the sm will blab enough to create a defensive reaction in your ds. For you.
Particularly if you remain steady, consistent non judgmental mom........ and don't make ds feel he has to defend sm and pdf he'll develop a stronger sense of self and who you are through the PD's skewed lense.
I know there's fear, but what I don't want to see is the PDs provoke you into speaking and acting in ways that create defensiveness in son where there wasn't going to be any.
The PDs have a knack for pushing our buttons, then we react without thinking it through... we sabotage ourselves.
Don't let them drive you to that dark place, AOD.
If ds takes a sip of the kool aid and brings it up.... ask him what he thinks about that statement. Then let him think about it and speak honestly. I think your ds will see the kool aid for what it is. If not instantly... when you hold yourself with poise and calm, and the PDs don't.
Quote from: Associate of Daniel on January 18, 2020, 07:01:38 AM
I need time to grieve.
AOD
Will he be with you every weekend? You will have time still to be his mom. She's not you. She will never be you.
I am so sorry, Aod. I don't think you are weak at all. I think you are a strong woman. You are reassessing the situation. It takes a strong person to realize the things you are discussing. You know this is a difficult situation for you and that may be affecting how you are feeling and reacting to the N-phone. You are also assessing how much he uses it, and if it really is an issue in your home or not. There's nothing weak about any of that. I feel it takes a lot of strength to let something go, especially if it is something you are uncomfortable with. And if you want to keep any boundaries on the phone, then do so. Especially with the GPS since that seems to be what you are worried about most. Or start there and add more limits to the phone if needed. If he doesn't use it after break, then it may not be an issue at all.
You will always be DS's mom no matter where he lives. :hug: