Insisting that I am not happy

[phlox]

Hi everyone, I don't really have a single question here, but I do have a few scattered in the below recounting of my Saturday afternoon. I guess I need to simply commiserate with the only people I know will 100% understand where I'm coming from. Thanks for listening. 

I've been married for 20 years to a BPDh, most of that as a confused, unhappy and eventually suicidal wife - convinced that I deserved the abuse I was receiving. About 8 years ago I came Out of the FOG, set healthy boundaries for myself, and started healing my psyche.
 
My boundaries led uBPDh to start going to therapy and become BPDh - and although he often denies this diagnosis ever occured (unless it works in his favor to explain away past abusive incidents) - overall, it's been a really great thing! He learned a lot about himself, his childhood, his behaviors and started applying some new coping mechanisms to better manage his behavior. Married life was beginning to look up.

There are a number of things that are still quite precarious. Sexual intimacy is one of them. I've lurked here long enough to know that this is a very common challenge. I'm so grateful to have this forum available to validate some of the boundary decisions I've made as "not completely unreasonable expectations". I've heard from many of you that it is understandable to not want to have sex with someone who treated you so poorly for so many years. It has been so helpful for me to hear that I am not crazy or alone in feeling this way.

Often we would have sex and I would silently cry, or get nauseous, or simply disconnect during and afterwards. Like many of you, I tried for years to find a balance that would keep him satisfied that I was also comfortable with. It wasn't ever enough. About 14 months ago, I finally said to him that I was done. I can't find a balance point in sex that works for us both and I'm no longer willing to make myself ill over it. I did not want to have sex anymore. He was (and is) free to seek out sex elsewhere.

In spite of the lack of any sex whatsoever, I consider what we now have to be a satisfying relationship. I still have 0% libido for anything but I do generally enjoy his company.

For the past 4 years, we've been living separately during the week for work and school needs, and come together as a family of 4 on the weekends with our two teenagers. This was a proposal *he* made when we decided to transfer our kids to a new school. I didn't like the idea in the beginning but have grown to love it. I have a safe space that is primarily mine to manage with the kids. We collaborate well on our finances, parental roles, our individual work and personal challenges, and talk pleasantly on the phone at least 3x each day. He comes to the kids' school events and also talks to them daily. They have a stable, calm household to conduct their daily lives from and are exceling academically. I consider him one of my closest friends, albeit knowing that some boundaries need to be carefully managed. For me, this is about as good as I think it's going to get and while I know it's not perfect, it's been such an improvement for me, my level of safety, and my mental health.

I've made a conscious choice to remain a couple because as things stand now, the consequences of staying married to a weekend husband who lives 1.5 hours away outweigh the consequences of divorcing. Our relationship is more of a business parntership now, I suppose. Our business is Phlox Family Maintenance.

I'm writing now because yesterday he was in our apartment for the weekend (sometimes we are here, and sometimes we are in the home we all shared for 10 years) and he suddenly started behaving like a petulant child - something I haven't seen much of lately. The older our kids get, the more they call him out on his immaturity. He tends to whine when he thinks things aren't fair. This was happening that day, the kids called him out, and it got to him. He snapped.

Eventually, he cornered me in the bedroom and started a barrage of statements around our marriage - how abnormal it is and how it's not a real marriage and how miserable I must be. I stayed calm and responded with statements that I am not miserable, on the contrary, I feel as though we have made lemonade from lemons and I am satisfied with our marriage as it is today.

He kept on insisting that there is no way I could possibly be happy this way - no sex, no truly shared housing, no sleeping in the same bed...on and on. All within earshot of our teenagers.

I tried to de-escalate numerous times, as this is not a discussion we've ever exposed our kids to. He would.not.stop. Finally, I lost my grey rock and middle chill. I asked if he wanted me to address his statements openly. He said yes.

I said that because of the 12+ years of abuse he directed toward me and that I accepted, I am currently giving him all of myself that I can give. I have set the boundaries I have (sexual, but this wasn't explicitly stated because...teens listening) for my own well-being. Because of these boundaries and because of him respecting these boundaries, I am actually feeling quite happy these days with myself and with our relationship.

I know, of course, that what he was really saying to me is that *he* is unhappy with the way things are, but from past experiences I know that while he loves to tell me how I am feeling, he of course balks at me articulating how he seems to feel. Perhaps because in the early stages of this change, I was uncertain if I liked the setup, he seemed to feel more "in charge". Now that it's clear I am thriving, I believe he feels more threatened. And the kids calling him out either brought it all to the forefront, or he simply still feels safe being angry with me. Either way, he was not saying anything about himself, only about how I must feel.

He demanded I write down all my "boundaries" (sneer) on paper so he could review them and start to understand them. I declined and said he is already respecting them, so I feel he understands them well. He demanded that I stand up for him to the kids. I stated that I do so, but that if he whines, it's not possible for me to support that behavior. He demanded I tell a therapist why I'm so unhappy with him. I responded that I'm fine with going to a therapist to talk about our situation but that I am not unhappy.

I then asked "Are you unhappy?" He paused because he does not like to make definitive statements. (Does anyone else's PD do this? Mine cannot even say what he wants for dinner, for fear that it will come back to bite him) He then said that yes, he is unhappy but still couched it in some wishy-washy words. I told him I'm sorry to hear that (and I am) but repeated that I cannot give him more than I already am. If that is not enough for him, I understand and will support whatever decision he needs to make to support his own happiness. He called me cold and uncaring and demanded I say this to a therapist who will, in his words "tell us who's right and who's wrong!" I reminded him that therapists don't generally make declarations like that. We have to decide right and wrong for ourselves. I also told him that if he wants us to go to therapy, I am fine with going but that I am not going to expend any energy to identify this therapist. Every time we have gone to marriage counsellors (4) I have expended all the effort to find, arrange and schedule the sessions. I told him that it is now his turn to drive the effort and I will willingly be there. Things petered out from there and I went to the gym (why I was in the bedroom in the first place - to change into gym clothes) for an hour and a half to decompress. By the time I returned to the apartment, he was cheerful and pretending nothing happened.

I spoke individually to our kids to apologize for the argument and to let me and their dad know if they wanted to talk about it. They seemed and seem ok, shrugging it off as "just dad".

After that, all was in delicate balance for the rest of the evening. I don't know if I'm yet again going to therapy but I do think we are gearing up for a larger conversation perhaps about an actual divorce. But maybe not. It's quite possible he will simply pretend it never happened. Which is destablizing.

Sigh. Even in what generally feels like a good compromise, life is never clear-cut with these tortured souls.

[square]

You have achieved Expert Level BPDh Maintenance. Good job.

Will he actually do anything after it blows over, such as actually set up therapy (if he tries to make you set it up push the task back on him) or divorce? I really don't know. I know mine wouldn't.

Your husband was triggered by being called out for whining. If you are happy with the setup, can you live with the occasional blowup?

If sensitive topics were brought up in front of my teen, or we are having a more detailed argument than she needs to hear, we now go sit in the car in the driveway to discuss. I do not do this if he is not engaging in a reasonable manner - if he's name calling or whatever, nope, I'm out. But if we can keep it civil I'm willing to hear him out, but in privacy. My teen is old enough to be fine with us stepping out. Something for you to consider. I would personally not tolerate him discussing intimate details of our marriage in my child's earshot, so we can either discuss in private or not at all.

[phlox]

Thank you so much for replying, square, and for your kind encouragement. Going to the car is a great idea. I'll try that next time.

I do not feel like an expert at all - more like an ice skater constantly twirling around thin ice. But because our face-time together is minimiized, these blow-ups are only occasional. If we lived together, they would certainly be more frequent. I don't think I want to live 24/7 under the same roof again. This won't be popular but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. So yeah, I can accept the occasional blow-up as a consequence. But man, they are still exhausting to manage.

I seriously doubt he will follow through on the therapy "threat". I think it was a ploy to try and make me feel destabilized. Once he saw that I have no issue with going to therapy, it became less appealing to him.

He used to threaten divorce all the time because it would always upset me terribly. Until the day came 8 years ago when he said the same old "I guess since I'm so awful you don't want to be married to me anymore, maybe we should just get divorced." and I responded with, "Not my first choice, but I agree." He let out a yelp like a wounded animal and has never brought up this threat again.

In terms of our teens, I have tried to never exposed to them the abuse that took place before and throughout their childhoods. Yesterday may have been the first time they have heard me say "You abused me" to their dad. I worry about this but I also feel it is important for them to hear that there are consequences for this kind of behavior AND also that there are ways to navigate through abuse and then carry on with a healthy life. My daughter shows some of the same tendencies as her dad, but we have worked hard to help her manage them and to see how they hurt others. It was still not my preference to introduce them to these facts in this manner, but there it is.

He went back "home" last night and I will spend some time with the kids this evening, addressing the argument and asking them if they have any questions or worries.

He got SO MAD at me when I mentioned his BPD diagnosis yesterday while I spoke about the abuse. He vehemently denied having BPD and pointed out my years ago depression diagnosis while at the same time complaining that I "always have to label him". Honestly, I'd never even heard of a Cluster B PD prior to his initial diagnosis but I look back now and know that the combo of BPD and depression is never going to work out well. I backtracked and said, ok, you don't have BPD. You and I can both agree that the behaviors you exhibit and what I've experienced as a result is very similar to what BPD spouses and non-BPD spouses have reported. And he humphed and hawed but dropped it.

Sorry, I'm rambling a bit. It feels good to talk a bit more about this after so many years of going it alone.

[_firewalker_]

Hi phlox,

First off, kudos to you for finding a plan that works for you. Hope this doesn't sound harsh but who cares what your BPDh thinks about the arrangement if it works for you! If he doesn't like it and isn't happy, oh well. Not your problem.

His reactions and your entire exchange sounds like classic BPD. None of what you said is surprising. I'm not sure if that is any comfort, but maybe it helps you know it's normal. Also, you reacting as well is NORMAL. We can't be expected to live year after year with these people and just be emotionless robots. Eventually emotions are going to come out.

I agree with square, I think having a plan next time of how you can disengage and pick up the 'argument' out of earshot of the teens is a good idea. Make the plan in your mind when you're calm so when your fight-or-flight takes over you don't have to come up with the plan in the moment. You can say something simple like, "I'm not discussing this right now, but if you want to go to the car we can talk there." and then proceed to walk to the car ignoring anything else he says to you.

I am impressed with what you have been able to accomplish...the ability to tell him, "you have abused me" and set boundaries to what you will and will not tolerate. You have a lot to be proud of! Keep up the great work.

Firewalker

[square]

The bomb squad are experts. But they are still sweating when they are doing a job. Having to work hard at a thing does not make you not an expert.

I live under the same roof as my husband, but we went from frequent blowups to just the occasional one - for a few reasons. The decreased frequency made a big difference to my life. But yeah, when one happens, it's just so exhausting.

Sounds like you don't have to worry about therapy. If for some reason he does actually book therapy, come back to us for advice, because therapy is not a safe space with a PD. But I'm guessing it's a non-issue and you'll probably never hear about it again.

So you called his bluff on divorce as well before. I could have guessed from the wording ("I guess I'm sooo awful") that it was a total bluff.

I'm guessing that despite your best efforts, your teens have been exposed to more than you think. I honestly have no idea what my teen may have seen/heard and been affected by. Not because I'm not paying attention, but because it's damn hard to really know.

Probably your situation where you mostly live apart is ideal for reducing the tendencies to "inheriting" the toxic behavior. When things are stressful, as life happens, there is a huge difference between dealing with it in a normal fashion, with calm support and direction and predictable limits from a parent, and going through it with a parent who increases the stress, weaponizes it, belittles the child, sets up no win scenarios, and so on. The latter is just so harmful that of course a child would turn to unhealthy methods to survive, such as avoiding responsibility, lying, learning toxic methods of argument, and so on, not to mention just carrying additional emotional loads of shame, general distrust, etc.

I have to suggest not bringing up the BPD diagnosis again. It won't help. In fact, it's actually reasonable that it would not help. It's saying "you are crazy" and "your perceptions are clinically insane." These things may actually be true, but being told that affects us all the same whether we're crazy or not.

YOU should definitely remember he has BPD, and you are free to remind yourself he is clinically mentally ill. But whether one has a personality disorder or is having bizarre hallucinations, discrediting someone's perceptions is about as invalidating as it comes. I'm not saying this to say "you should be more respectful and supportive," it's just a plain cold fact that saying it will be even less useful than telling someone "calm down."

One of the things I am really happy that I've done is to not ever mention my husband's mental illnesses during conflict. He is aware he is mentally ill (likely schizophrenia, and exhibits PD traits when stressed which is most of the time since he apparently has a serious neurological condition) but when he is falling apart, hearing "you're just doing this because you're crazy" (in any form) is just going to undo him, and I can't blame him. It's like being told, when you are expressing your hurt and need (valid or not) "you're obviously on the rag." Not saying that his hurt and need are in fact valid or expressed constructively.

No worries on rambling, keep posting.

[phlox]

Thank you firewalker for the kind words and the validation that what I'm experiencing is normal. It helps so much in this kind of dynamic - where your sanity is constantly put on trial - just to feel that someone else has had similar experiences and you are actually normal and sane. You are not being harsh - I do not particularly care what he thinks about my boundaries, but I do have empathy that he is hurting because of them. I don't think he truly understands what he's done that is so damaging. Sometimes he will even say to me in (sort of) jest: "Awww, you were SO abused, you poor thing". And I stop playing at that point, institute awkward silence mode, and move on.

I'm definitely going to work on having a plan before the next melt-down occurs. This is really good advice.

Square, thanks for the bomb squad analogy. That did a lot to make me feel quite capable here! Also your observations about telling him he has BPD are spot on. I don't care for it when he tells me I have depression and I'm quite open about that diagnosis. I can totally see how saying BPD would damage rather than support my intentions.

I'm also thinking my teens have been more exposed than I wish they'd been. I recorded some of our arguments a long time ago and in one of the recordings I can hear our son's little boy voice in the background. This just breaks my heart. They have both had some therapy but I doubt there was much conversation to address this topic.

Thank you both for the thoughtful responses and the invitation to keep rambling.

This forum and the people in it are gems!

[square]

Yeah, I would avoid labelling him or his behavior as abusive. He's apparently okay wuth his behavior, he's not going to have a lightbulb moment and say, gee whiz, I didn't realize I wasabusing you, I'm so sorry. He's going to invalidate it to the max, belittle you, call you abusive, etc.

Best to avoid any labels at all. Just say stuff like "this isn't constructive, we can talk later when things calm down" or "you have a right to your opinion," or "I see."

But - feel free to identify and label behaviors in your head so you can manage them better.

[phlox]

I absolutely agree with you, square, on not labeling him as BPD. I don't recall ever labeling him as "abusive". I generally don't think of him that way.

But I don't think I'll stop stating my own truth, which is that he abused me. This, in my opinion, isn't a label. It's an experience. And try as he might now to invalidate my experiences, he cannot. They are MINE.

Owning that I was abused is empowering for me, odd as that may sound. It is an experience I went through and it has contributed to the person I am today. And quite honestly, after spending a lifetime of feeling unworthy and undeserving, I am becoming quite pleased with and proud of the person I am today.

While I would NEVER say living with a PD is a good thing to go through, some of the "benefits" of having this experience have been:

- increased compassion and empathy for others
- more confident and open with my vulnerability, allowing others to be comfortable to do the same
- calmer in high-stress situations
- less likely to be intimidated by others

In my career, I am a people manager and an executive in a male-dominated industry. My experiences have honed my skills in these areas and have made me a (not normally a braggart but here goes) popular and respected leader in my organization. This is not something I would have anticipated happening 20 years ago. I'm sure there are healthier ways to acquire these skills, but that wasn't in the cards of my life.

Not to be morbid but when I am dying, I truly feel that I will be satisfied with what I've accomplished. I grew significantly and became a better person over the course of my life.

I know I went off on a philosophical tangent there. You told me I could keep rambling, right?  

[square]

Indeed, keep rambling.

Ignore what I said about labelling his abusive behavior - since you said you feel very empowered, whatever you are doing is working for you. I'm not clear on whether or not you've used that word with him, I did get that impression, but maybe you were just using that word as shorthand for other things. But when you mentioned him saying sarcastically how you were "sooo abused" I did remember how, many years ago, I said something to my husband along those lines, and he tore me to shreds over it. But again, whatever you did or didn't say, you feel empowered, so that's all that matters.

I totally agree with what you wrote about having grown as a person. I could not possibly answer whether all this suffering was worth it, whether I would ever choose it again. But I did grow a lot and am a better person. Being forged in fire does bring its benefits.

By the way, you had asked about whether PDs avoid taking definitive stances. PDs and everyone else avoid putting themselves in vulnerable positions. My guess is that your husband had the experience growing up that definitive stances were vulnerable to attack. Likely he found it better to be able to reposition his statements and leave doors open, as definitive statements were probably attacked and weaponized.

My husband has no problem with definitive statements, and I don't see any evidence that those were liabilities for him. So my guess is that it just depends on childhood experiences. For all of us.

[_firewalker_]

phlox,

I just LOVE this statement that you made, this is powerful truth right here:

"I don't recall ever labeling him as "abusive". ... But I don't think I'll stop stating my own truth, which is that he abused me. This, in my opinion, isn't a label. It's an experience. And try as he might now to invalidate my experiences, he cannot. They are MINE."



Well said.

Firewalker

[phlox]

Square said: By the way, you had asked about whether PDs avoid taking definitive stances. PDs and everyone else avoid putting themselves in vulnerable positions. My guess is that your husband had the experience growing up that definitive stances were vulnerable to attack. Likely he found it better to be able to reposition his statements and leave doors open, as definitive statements were probably attacked and weaponized

My husband was most certainly attacked by his single parent uNPDm for making definitive decisions in childhood. (You wanted burgers so we got burgers and I didn't like my burger so it's all your fault!) He is still somewhat attacked as an adult, but he tolerates it less and we see it much, much less when I am present as a buffer.

What baffles me is even when he drives to us for the explicit purpose of going for a hike with the kids (initially without me as I had another commitment) to help them with training for an upcoming event, he STILL looks to another adult to make the final decisions on the details (where to go, what to pack, whether to bring the dog), even if that adult is not participating in the hike.

Thank you, firestarter, for the feedback. It's really wonderful to know we have shared experiences. Makes the journey less lonely. 


Once again, I am very grateful for the responses here.

[phlox]

Also square, I love what you said about being "forged in fire". The idea that I've also been forged in fire makes me feel very strong and brave.

[square]

What baffles me is even when he drives to us for the explicit purpose of going for a hike with the kids (initially without me as I had another commitment) to help them with training for an upcoming event, he STILL looks to another adult to make the final decisions on the details (where to go, what to pack, whether to bring the dog), even if that adult is not participating in the hike.

I don't know, but here are two guesses.

1. This could be an extension of what you described as his childhood experiences. Decisions he made were weaponized, so he feels safer having someone else make that decision. Furthermore, in such situations he would not have learned how to make decisions at all, since the formation of that skill requires the child to make decisions, learn constructively from them, make adjustments, and keep making decisions until they are good and mature decisions.

2. He might also have an anxiety disorder, and additionally he might have something else like OCD or ADHD, which could compromise his decision making skills.

My husband does not have the childhood experience of his decisions being weaponized, but he does have neuro stuff like maybe schizophrenia that can mess with his perceptions but looks like ADHD when mild, OCD which I think he acquired due to trying to manage the perceptual issues (eg can't remember if he locked the car, so does a ritual to cement it into memory that he did), and anxiety overall due to trauma and distrust of his perceptions and decisions.

So he absolutely demands I make the decisions, even ones having nothing to do with me or ones i have no expertise in but he does.

And then, with the OCD, he wants me to participate in a worry session eg "so you're sure I should do X? I shouldn't do Y? Isn't Y better?"

[phlox]

Come to think of it, there was a point in time when he was prescribed medication for anxiety and he refused it, citing some side effect. It was such a brief blip that I'd forgotten it.

Hmmmm. Going to noodle on this a bit more...

[Defiantdaughter1]

I'm glad you seem to be in a better, more peaceful place now. Some couples just cannot live under the same roof. Even if they love each other very much, they just cannot live together. It seems you both get along with each other better when you're not living together.

[Mary]

I'm learning a great deal from this thread. Lots of commonalities. Please keep rambling!