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I had never read Matt 23 from that lense, SoT. It shows me that Jesus knows exactly what is going on, and calls out the hypocrisy. Verse 12 is a challenge and very comforting, as Jesus teaches those who are not Pharisees how to be.

"12 Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted."

 I aim to follow this teaching, and I am hoping for a bunch of high-five's from Jesus someday!

Thanks for the thought-provoking comparison.
Mary

Hi Mary,

Thanks for your input on the thread.  In verse 12, what do you believe that ‘humbles himself’ means and how does it relate to time, both now and to the future? 

I want to notice that at verse 8, Jesus switches briefly from PD/Pharisee trait exposure, to those around who may ascribe to a place of prominence and/or those who are blindly letting themselves being led-around and led-astray by these users and abusers. 

Verse 8 starts with “But as for you…”  and therefore continues on into the verse 12 you referenced. 

SoT
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Hmm, such an excellent comparison. Sometimes when reading about the behavior of personality disordered individuals, I'm struck profoundly with various bits of scripture initially aimed at the Pharisees that is 100% applicable. In those days, I fully believe that what we now know as narcissists would have sought out the most high profile positions among the people for supply. Therefore, Jesus knew them for what they were. Whited sepulcher filled with dead men's bones. Pretty on the outside, but full of corruption and unclean things.

I am frequently reminded, when reading about pwPDs that are active in the church and put on one mask there only to mistreat their families at home, of Matthew 7:23.

God knows the heart of man, whether it be true or false. Being pro gaslighters ain't going to help them in the end.

Andeza,

I fully agree that NPD’s and general Narcissism would have been the backbone behind those that sought out those positions. There is no reason, imo, to believe that personality disorders were not as common in that day as they are today, and in the hands of money, power and pride, we see that these self-appointed, covert, intelligent humans, used and abused those in their way, even to the point of public rage and murder. 

One thing i must keep in mind always, is that Jesus has unlimited supernatural abilities, one of which is omniscience. In addition, his ability to control matter, nature and time. These supernatural abilities allow Jesus to fully control his circumstances in situations that we cannot, therefore i desire to remember human limitations in my dealing with abusers, but also be extremely gracious that Jesus, this all-powerful creator, loves his creation enough, to come into this highly volatile scene voluntarily, in order to have even closer relationship with those who will believe, and to teach by example, even leaving a legacy of his time here and a general textbook for living. 

The Matthew 7:23 reference is a great way to relate the hypocrisy of PD’s in the home vs in public.  What is interesting to me, is that Jesus teaching is more focused toward those who are being gaslighted and manipulated, not the abusers themselves.  Yes, he surely and supernaturally exposes truth to the abusers face in the very volatile public settings (we non’s learn quickly that calling out a PD trait in a public setting is flame to gasoline) that only he can escape, but he is doing so to show the hypocrisy and teach the sheep that they are incorrectly following the gaslighting, manipulative, covert and disordered shepherds, and that in contrast, he is the good shepherd and that his desire is peace and deep joy, even in the midst of abusers. 

Therefore, i believe Jesus is exposing and teaching for our courageous real living on this Earth as well as prove to us who to trust (him!) for when our time is complete here.  I do not believe Jesus is simply conveying he is ‘aware’ of our circumstances and for us to solely focus on the heavenly end-goal, in martyrdom fashion, but to fully protect ourselves now, using the supernatural education he provides into the human condition that sin creates, and for us to absorb the power that he models. 

SoT
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Separating & Divorcing / Re: Out of body experience
« Last post by escapingman on Today at 06:31:41 AM »
Thanks, hhaw. I suppose I feel bad about pressing charges, don't think I can do it whilst living in the same house unless she go on to do a full on assault. But I am tired, I am so tired right now. I am tired of no adult conversation, I am tried of having to implement MC and GR all the time, I am tired of having to stay 100% focused, I am tired of when I do the smallest slip up and actually make a 2 word reply that she tries to jump on me thinking I am back as her supply. I am tired of someone denying the fact I told her I am going to file for divorce and keep trying to involve me in activities with the entire family. Right now she is alternating between playing happy family and being the victim.

I had the discussion with SG yesterday that she need to accept mum and dad will split up, she said we don't we just try to be nice to each other and all will be fine. Makes my hearth bleed as that is what I have tried all these years but it all being sabotaged by stbx. SG brought up happy memories, yes some of them were happy, but what SG failed to include was the extremely unhappy moments during those happy memories caused by some minor incident that made stbx lose her shit and kick off with me. It breaks my hearth to do this, I don't want to split the family up, but I have to. I have to do this to save myself, to save the kids, maybe even to save stbx. 
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Tell me if I’m getting this correct. You put 50% down in cash on this cabin, then co-signed the mortgage for the balance which is in BIL’s name. So you did know what you were signing. But it was either sign or lose the cabin? I can definitely see how codependent people could get steamrolled into agreeing to something like that. Been in those sort of situations myself where I got blatantly taken advantage of. I don’t understand though how your names are not on the loan if you could be liable for BIL defaulting. The bank should be in communication with you if at anytime your personal credit is at risk, not simply relying on BIL. That may not ultimately matter much, I just found it confusing. As are many things when pwpd are involved.

With the mortgage period coming about halfway now, it seems like the larger investment from your point of view is the personal one. How you’ve made this place your own, improved it, etc.

That would be a real loss. But what if you considered it a sunk cost? Live and learn and get a different cabin? It sounds as if you could afford to on your own at this point. I don’t know the area or if there are similar properties you could have instead, but if as you say the most important thing to you is to get out of the dysfunction… it may be best to start over. If you bought them out the potential for smear campaigning and guilt tripping and oh-poor-us could be everlasting, especially if you had strong boundaries after having basically none and next to no communication about what is and is ok there for 13 years. It would be a constant challenge to “change the steps to the dance,” as my old T would say.
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Separating & Divorcing / Re: Out of body experience
« Last post by hhaw on Yesterday at 11:56:47 PM »
You have the evidence, I suggest going forward with the charges, particularly if she continues being abusive..... particularly if your attorney feels you can prove your case.

At some point you can tell the kids why you're separating......but not to debate.  Just to clear the air and provide clarity once you've filed and explain your decision to the kids. 

It's likely the kids already know what their mother's done to you.  Hearing you say it out loud, sans anger.....solidifies your position as worthy of safety and capable of setting and holding boundaries, ime

I'm sorry the stbx weaponizes the children against you.  That's the way it is.  At least for now.

I really like the book The Parallel Process by Krissy Pozatek, LICSW, bc it gives you a very concrete structure for dealing with problematic relationships with our children.  It demystifies and simplifies, provides a skeleton to build on, ime.  I found my notes recently.  I highly recommend it.

I'll say it one more time, resist allowing stbx to cross your boundaries, assault and abuse you.  At a point you'll be holding her feet to every fire, ime. 

Document, keep your cool, report and be ready to lodge that police complaint to begin your stand.

Once you do......have a plan for leaving. 

You're doing really well.
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 :yeahthat:

What everybody else said, 100%! Well, she’ll never go shopping with YOU in mind again, well, because it’s clear she never did in the first place. My mother would also play these ridiculous games with stuff. Give me craptacular “gifts” that were completely her cast-offs or stuff she would have bought for herself that I had said I did not personally like, which led to her doubling down on buying me that sort of gift for years, or had some other passive-aggressive jab to them, or were just her being plain cheap. So you either take the crap and be over-the-top grateful, or well how dare you! Either way it’s an insult.

I agree with Bloomie. Oh, you won’t shop for me? Okay. Thanks for sparing me the bother of being your personal Goodwill.
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Religious & Spiritual Discussion / Re: PD’s, Pharisees and Hypocrisy
« Last post by Mary on Yesterday at 11:43:49 PM »
I had never read Matt 23 from that lense, SoT. It shows me that Jesus knows exactly what is going on, and calls out the hypocrisy. Verse 12 is a challenge and very comforting, as Jesus teaches those who are not Pharisees how to be.

"12 Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted."

 I aim to follow this teaching, and I am hoping for a bunch of high-five's from Jesus someday!

Thanks for the thought-provoking comparison.
Mary
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I will too.
Mary
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Committed to Working On It / Re: Physical damage from being around a PD person
« Last post by Mary on Yesterday at 11:15:34 PM »
Wow, Justanother,
I am amazed by your physical improvements since your husband left. Shocking really. Thanks for sharing!
Mary
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I'm really sorry that you have to endure your partner talking trash about you. A few months ago, my ex was at my house and was talking on the phone to someone who might have been a therapist. I was not trying to eavesdrop; ex was outside the house and the windows were open and either he didn't realize he was speaking loud and clear or didn't care. Anyway, I heard him say, "I'm at my ex-wife's house,..." and I felt so awful hearing only those words that I left the room and took off in the car to do errands. I kind of wanted to know what he was going to say, but I figured I'd feel even worse if I heard anymore.
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