Recent posts
#11
Co-parenting and Secondary Relationships / Re: When the kids realize and ...
Last post by bloomie - Yesterday at 02:57:15 PMPenny Lane - Sitting this screen hearing your heart for your family... may I just say that your self control and ability to think on your feet addressing heartbreaking realities with your dear SD leave me in awe!
Brought me to tears the tenderness and humility that you bring to one and all. Sheesh!!! So very well done!
I don't believe you are responsible for the damage here. Please rethink that. The dishonesty and misdeeds of the step mom are the issue. And yes, for your dear step kids it hurts a lot to see these truths and the consequences of their mother's choices that are echoing in all of your lives.
One way I have found to talk through tough stuff giving it a bigger context and avoid (as much as possible) directly maligning someone my children love is to talk about something like why a marriage ended or why someone is not allowed to come by the house at will is to talk through the idea of sowing and reaping... or gardening, if you will.
We all have seed to sow. Our thoughts, attitudes, choices belong to us and we all have decisions every day what kind of soil we sow those precious seeds into. This step mom chose to, when committed to their dad, betray him and violate her vows and promises and, ultimately, his trust. The 'fruit' of that decision is the marriage was broken beyond repair. And that is hard to see and painful for everyone, but no one can go back for a redo.
The 'fruit' of that step mom lying to her daughter, misrepresenting so many situations and interactions is starting to be something this precious young woman is grappling with. In my humble view, this is how we talk through the responsibility we all have to live honestly and with integrity because there is no avoiding the harvest of our lives.
We can love and forgive others. We can better understand why they may do the things they do and why they sow the beautiful seeds that belong to them on fallow ground expecting a rich and abundant harvest
, but ultimately, your sweet girl needs the wisdom, compassion, caring voice of a woman (you) and daddy (DH) who loves her first, sacrificially, before themselves and who has sown into her life every good thing so she can flourish.
Keep talking to her and answering her questions with wisdom as you are. Keep holding space for her grief, confusion, disappointment and know that she has good soil from which to grow!
Brought me to tears the tenderness and humility that you bring to one and all. Sheesh!!! So very well done!
I don't believe you are responsible for the damage here. Please rethink that. The dishonesty and misdeeds of the step mom are the issue. And yes, for your dear step kids it hurts a lot to see these truths and the consequences of their mother's choices that are echoing in all of your lives.
One way I have found to talk through tough stuff giving it a bigger context and avoid (as much as possible) directly maligning someone my children love is to talk about something like why a marriage ended or why someone is not allowed to come by the house at will is to talk through the idea of sowing and reaping... or gardening, if you will.
We all have seed to sow. Our thoughts, attitudes, choices belong to us and we all have decisions every day what kind of soil we sow those precious seeds into. This step mom chose to, when committed to their dad, betray him and violate her vows and promises and, ultimately, his trust. The 'fruit' of that decision is the marriage was broken beyond repair. And that is hard to see and painful for everyone, but no one can go back for a redo.
The 'fruit' of that step mom lying to her daughter, misrepresenting so many situations and interactions is starting to be something this precious young woman is grappling with. In my humble view, this is how we talk through the responsibility we all have to live honestly and with integrity because there is no avoiding the harvest of our lives.
We can love and forgive others. We can better understand why they may do the things they do and why they sow the beautiful seeds that belong to them on fallow ground expecting a rich and abundant harvest
, but ultimately, your sweet girl needs the wisdom, compassion, caring voice of a woman (you) and daddy (DH) who loves her first, sacrificially, before themselves and who has sown into her life every good thing so she can flourish. Keep talking to her and answering her questions with wisdom as you are. Keep holding space for her grief, confusion, disappointment and know that she has good soil from which to grow!
#12
Working on Us / Anyone else move and "start ov...
Last post by Therivercontinueson - Yesterday at 01:48:29 PMI have been moving every few years all my adult life, not even to different houses but altogether different countries. The pattern seems to be: move to country x, have a great time for two years, find a partner and "settle down", relationship goes sour (me picking the wrong partners with whom codependency becomes an issue) after two years and gets terrible and stressful, I have a mental health crisis, I break up with them and realize I have no friends left and "no reason to be here anymore", cue depression and panic, move country again and feel like life starts afresh, repeat cycle. I know this probably has something to do with the fact my PD parents ensured my family was enmeshed and wouldnt let me even consider leaving. Its like I have some sort of deep desire for escape and keep recreating it - even though I've escaped my family already (I have been no-contact for a year now)? On the other hand my career is made for moving and I like living in new places so maybe I am over-pathologizing myself? For example, I like my current city but my relationship is pretty much over, and I'm wondering if I should take a job offer in another country. My current city is a bit small and besides the fact I would be running into them often, I never really made lasting friendships here due to it being a slightly reserved culture, and I feel a bit bored by what the city has to offer. It's like this feeling of moving up and out and once I do it, I tend not to look back. I can't really get my head around always wanting to run away as I am normally a quite sentimental and attached person. Has anyone dealt with this before?
#13
Last Days / After the Funeral / Re: The role of a person who d...
Last post by sunshine702 - Yesterday at 01:14:00 PMThis is why I grow more and more convinced ex MIL is a covert Narc. I really think death/dying / grief really shines a light on their thinking. If you are somewhat close to it you SEE it.
So I watched her grieve the husband . She cried one day. A few days after the funeral. She withdrew and rested for about a week then she moved to replace the ROLE that he filled for her. My now ex will now play the role of husband and protector (something he is very much looking forward to!) and her 13 year old grandkid will now play the role of massive road trip travel partner (I don't see this going well but time will tell - maybe it will go great).
Contrast this with the a childhood friend dying at 75 ish. Weeks holed up in her house deeply affected. Son dutiful watching over his dead mother as she grieves for husband err ...checks notes... a friend from childhood that had never been to visit her that I knew about. I had never seen or hear of this person. So how "close" were they really?!
I honestly think that friend is her coming to grips with her mortally at her age. It's all about them!
My Narc mom was saying the same thing. The father of a hockey friend of my Golden Child brother passed away . And my mom said THAT hit her hard — again their OWN mortality
So I watched her grieve the husband . She cried one day. A few days after the funeral. She withdrew and rested for about a week then she moved to replace the ROLE that he filled for her. My now ex will now play the role of husband and protector (something he is very much looking forward to!) and her 13 year old grandkid will now play the role of massive road trip travel partner (I don't see this going well but time will tell - maybe it will go great).
Contrast this with the a childhood friend dying at 75 ish. Weeks holed up in her house deeply affected. Son dutiful watching over his dead mother as she grieves for husband err ...checks notes... a friend from childhood that had never been to visit her that I knew about. I had never seen or hear of this person. So how "close" were they really?!
I honestly think that friend is her coming to grips with her mortally at her age. It's all about them!
My Narc mom was saying the same thing. The father of a hockey friend of my Golden Child brother passed away . And my mom said THAT hit her hard — again their OWN mortality
#14
Co-parenting and Secondary Relationships / Re: When the kids realize and ...
Last post by Rebel13 - Yesterday at 01:04:26 PMHi Penny Lane! This sounds like such a difficult situation -- but I would say you have done great so far even though you are feeling bad about how the current situation played out. It sounds like you have a great relationship with your stepdaughter and she is lucky to have you!
I'm not a parent and I don't even play one on TV, but I do read the ChumpLady blog, which focuses on infidelity with a large side helping of managing relationships with the disordered. Every so often the issue arises of how to talk to kids about a parent's infidelity. ChumpLady and most of the commenters there agree that telling kids the truth in a calm, fact-based, age-appropriate way is best for them. I'm not sure what the right tone and language for a 13-year-old would be, but maybe something like, "When people get married, they agree not to have girlfriends or boyfriends. Your mom got a boyfriend and your dad didn't like that, so your parents got divorced." ChumpNation seems to think that teens and even younger kids can understand that social contract and that violating it isn't OK.
I feel sorry for your daughter to have to navigate a relationship with a manipulative and controlling parent -- I definitely know what that's like! But I also have a stepmother who once told me, "If I had a daughter I'd want her to be just like you," which was wonderful to hear, and I'm sure your stepdaughter sees and appreciates her relationship with you. She's lucky to have a good relationship with a caring mother figure at her age. I wish I had!
Good luck and best wishes to you in navigating this, and don't be too hard on yourself. You are obviously doing your best!
I'm not a parent and I don't even play one on TV, but I do read the ChumpLady blog, which focuses on infidelity with a large side helping of managing relationships with the disordered. Every so often the issue arises of how to talk to kids about a parent's infidelity. ChumpLady and most of the commenters there agree that telling kids the truth in a calm, fact-based, age-appropriate way is best for them. I'm not sure what the right tone and language for a 13-year-old would be, but maybe something like, "When people get married, they agree not to have girlfriends or boyfriends. Your mom got a boyfriend and your dad didn't like that, so your parents got divorced." ChumpNation seems to think that teens and even younger kids can understand that social contract and that violating it isn't OK.
I feel sorry for your daughter to have to navigate a relationship with a manipulative and controlling parent -- I definitely know what that's like! But I also have a stepmother who once told me, "If I had a daughter I'd want her to be just like you," which was wonderful to hear, and I'm sure your stepdaughter sees and appreciates her relationship with you. She's lucky to have a good relationship with a caring mother figure at her age. I wish I had!
Good luck and best wishes to you in navigating this, and don't be too hard on yourself. You are obviously doing your best!
#15
Co-parenting and Secondary Relationships / When the kids realize and how ...
Last post by Penny Lane - Yesterday at 12:29:57 PMSo my younger stepkid, SD13, is the same age as when her older brother started asking a lot of questions about their mom, their parents' relationship, why are things so bad between them, etc. Now SD is kind of doing the same thing. Because she is who she is, this is much more adversarial to her brother. A lot of "you need to go easy on mom" to her dad, etc. It's been tough and we've been doing the same thing we did with SS16 - very light touch, provide (minimal) factual information, encourage her to not try to fix anything between her parents. She's been trying to insist that she wants to know what goes on between her parents.
So that brings us to the past month or so. DH and BM's relationship has gotten much less adversarial over the years (not none, but less) and they rarely have real run-ins. But they had to interact a few weeks ago and it was in front of SD. And BM went after DH and it got fairly ugly. Then the last time SD was at her mom's house, she returned really, really mad at DH about it. She was telling me how crazy he is, how her mom is a victim, on and on. I was trying to gently walk her through it, giving her context about why her dad has the boundaries he does. And I shared with her a few of the reasons that DH tries to avoid face to face interactions with BM and why we feel so uncomfortable with her at our house.
In my defense, SD WITNESSED THESE THINGS. Specifically one time she saw her mom come to our door, screaming at her dad, trying to push her way into the house. And SD saw the police come. That wasn't the only thing I told her but it was the main one, in the context of "this is the reason that your mom can't just come by our house whenever she wants."
I guess she doesn't remember or has blocked this all out, because this was all news to her and she started crying. I think I upended her worldview and her view of her mom. She has gone along thinking that her mom is just a poor struggling single mom trying to do her best (those are the words BM uses to describe herself) and DH totally shuts her out of parenting and makes things harder for no reason. Now, it turns out that there are big huge reasons that BM has never bothered to mention. SD feels lied to, she's really mad at her mom, she doesn't really know what's real. She is really, really struggling with this.
I apologized for telling her and she said she wants to know this stuff, she's glad I told her. I told her it is NOT her job to sort out who's right or not. The point of telling her wasn't to make her mad at her mom (again, I didn't think I was breaking any news. SHE WAS THERE.) I was trying to connect the dots of "when you act like this toward someone, there are consequences to that behavior." Still, she is miserable. I am as a result miserable and feeling incredibly guilty.
I think the kids eventually will need to learn the facts of how their mom behaves, to protect themselves if nothing else. But I also feel that they are too young to see this ugliness right now. I think their childhood will be better if they don't know.
But THEN I think, will their childhood be better if BM alienates them from their dad based on lies and omissions? Was SD truly happier when she was mad at her dad for something he didn't do? Or is she a little relieved to know that her perceptions of her dad are true and what her mom says about him is false?
BM has really put us in a no-win situation. She has set it up so that the kids can like either her or DH, but she's trying her hardest to make it not be both. This is terrible for them! They are made of her and of him, and I don't want them to hate someone who contributed half of themselves.
SD and I had a long talk afterward. I told her that her mom's bad actions, while they were a defining part of DH's relationship with BM, don't have to define SD's relationship with BM. BM is certainly at her worst with DH, but SD has seen a much greater part of her and more of the good things than I've seen. All of our parents have flaws, and as you grow up you see the good and the bad and hopefully incorporate the good into yourself and leave the bad with the older generation.
And then I felt like I wasn't validating SD's reasonable feelings so I said it was OK to be mad or sad or however she's feeling.
And THEN SD started asking me questions like "Why did they get divorced?" (The answer is her mom cheated on her dad and left.) I told her that's not my story to tell, but I think she's going to ask DH at some point, and that will open another whole can of worms I feel. (SS has never asked this - we have had a lot of talks about his mom and his dad, and he never even touched on it. I'm a little surprised it didn't come up until now, but I think he had enough self preservation to know that he doesn't actually want to know).
Soooooo what do we do now? How do we navigate helping this kid who is hurting? When we're sort of at the center of the issue she's hurting about. And also what to expect when a kid starts seeing their PD parent with a more objective lens? I imagine it's terrifying and also a little validating. But I really have no idea how to navigate this or what to do next. This feels like a really pivotal moment in SD's relationship with both parents, and with me, and I don't want to mess it up (further than I already have). Help!!!!!!!!!!
So that brings us to the past month or so. DH and BM's relationship has gotten much less adversarial over the years (not none, but less) and they rarely have real run-ins. But they had to interact a few weeks ago and it was in front of SD. And BM went after DH and it got fairly ugly. Then the last time SD was at her mom's house, she returned really, really mad at DH about it. She was telling me how crazy he is, how her mom is a victim, on and on. I was trying to gently walk her through it, giving her context about why her dad has the boundaries he does. And I shared with her a few of the reasons that DH tries to avoid face to face interactions with BM and why we feel so uncomfortable with her at our house.
In my defense, SD WITNESSED THESE THINGS. Specifically one time she saw her mom come to our door, screaming at her dad, trying to push her way into the house. And SD saw the police come. That wasn't the only thing I told her but it was the main one, in the context of "this is the reason that your mom can't just come by our house whenever she wants."
I guess she doesn't remember or has blocked this all out, because this was all news to her and she started crying. I think I upended her worldview and her view of her mom. She has gone along thinking that her mom is just a poor struggling single mom trying to do her best (those are the words BM uses to describe herself) and DH totally shuts her out of parenting and makes things harder for no reason. Now, it turns out that there are big huge reasons that BM has never bothered to mention. SD feels lied to, she's really mad at her mom, she doesn't really know what's real. She is really, really struggling with this.
I apologized for telling her and she said she wants to know this stuff, she's glad I told her. I told her it is NOT her job to sort out who's right or not. The point of telling her wasn't to make her mad at her mom (again, I didn't think I was breaking any news. SHE WAS THERE.) I was trying to connect the dots of "when you act like this toward someone, there are consequences to that behavior." Still, she is miserable. I am as a result miserable and feeling incredibly guilty.
I think the kids eventually will need to learn the facts of how their mom behaves, to protect themselves if nothing else. But I also feel that they are too young to see this ugliness right now. I think their childhood will be better if they don't know.
But THEN I think, will their childhood be better if BM alienates them from their dad based on lies and omissions? Was SD truly happier when she was mad at her dad for something he didn't do? Or is she a little relieved to know that her perceptions of her dad are true and what her mom says about him is false?
BM has really put us in a no-win situation. She has set it up so that the kids can like either her or DH, but she's trying her hardest to make it not be both. This is terrible for them! They are made of her and of him, and I don't want them to hate someone who contributed half of themselves.
SD and I had a long talk afterward. I told her that her mom's bad actions, while they were a defining part of DH's relationship with BM, don't have to define SD's relationship with BM. BM is certainly at her worst with DH, but SD has seen a much greater part of her and more of the good things than I've seen. All of our parents have flaws, and as you grow up you see the good and the bad and hopefully incorporate the good into yourself and leave the bad with the older generation.
And then I felt like I wasn't validating SD's reasonable feelings so I said it was OK to be mad or sad or however she's feeling.
And THEN SD started asking me questions like "Why did they get divorced?" (The answer is her mom cheated on her dad and left.) I told her that's not my story to tell, but I think she's going to ask DH at some point, and that will open another whole can of worms I feel. (SS has never asked this - we have had a lot of talks about his mom and his dad, and he never even touched on it. I'm a little surprised it didn't come up until now, but I think he had enough self preservation to know that he doesn't actually want to know).
Soooooo what do we do now? How do we navigate helping this kid who is hurting? When we're sort of at the center of the issue she's hurting about. And also what to expect when a kid starts seeing their PD parent with a more objective lens? I imagine it's terrifying and also a little validating. But I really have no idea how to navigate this or what to do next. This feels like a really pivotal moment in SD's relationship with both parents, and with me, and I don't want to mess it up (further than I already have). Help!!!!!!!!!!
#16
Celebrating Ourselves / Self care Meetup and hiking
Last post by sunshine702 - Yesterday at 11:15:53 AMI joined Meetup and will go on my first group hike on Thursday at sunset. Hiking is a big deal here so this will be helpful for my job (I need to be kind of a hike concierge sometimes when people ask) and it will be good for me to meet new local people while getting exercise!
This was a self care goal that I am about to begin! Yeah
This was a self care goal that I am about to begin! Yeah
#17
Common Behaviors / Re: Narcissists Researching Na...
Last post by sunshine702 - Yesterday at 11:08:36 AMQuote from: SeaBreeze on March 19, 2024, 03:20:49 PMI notice the uNPDs in my life often have not liked each other. Perhaps because they saw each other as competition for my attention. Though I will say my late uNPD mother could be protective of me against other toxic people; like, she recognized them for what they were, but also only she was allowed to abuse me? But looking back, she was indeed right about certain friends, boyfriends, and both my husbands being toxic and bad for me. She was my ultimate Narc Detector. Lol sigh
When stbx uNPDh first started isolating me, he identified the toxic friends first, the ones I knew weren't good to have in my life, so it was easy to agree with him that I shouldn't associate with them anymore. But then, after he sorted the bad apples out, he started in on the good apples in the basket as well...
As for PD ex-in-laws from my first marriage -- before I finally cut them out of my life for good, I kept tabs on social media until DD turned 18 so I would know where they were and what they were up to. I saw my scapegoat ex-SIL posting memes on social media about narcissism. Mainly in regard to an abusive ex-spouse of hers, but I know from past private convos she recognized her mother's PD. Well wouldn't ya know, ex-MIL was reposting the same memes! Including one about projection, which literally made me LOL.
But on a serious note, yes, I believe Narcs recognize each other, better than we nons perhaps can. In the wild, predators compete for prey, but they also often avoid each other. Like marking their territory. As with my Narc Detecting narc mother, strangely we nons might want to pay attention to who pings our PD's radars?
So my Narc mom is giving me gifts ( I needed a warmer comforter) this only came though to stick it to my Ex and his family. Had I asked for it and not left I would not have gotten it. Same as the lip balms she claimed she did not have any but they came when she wanted the wood Christmas ornaments to go to Golden Child's new family. Narc transactions. I see it
#18
Celebrating Ourselves / Re: Why We Are Focusing On Our...
Last post by sunshine702 - Yesterday at 10:57:40 AMI love this ❤️
Excited to hear!
Excited to hear!
#19
Going No Contact with a PD Parent / Re: If you went NC with an eld...
Last post by TimetoHeal - Yesterday at 10:09:20 AMHi, Tribe.
I remember reading your original post, and just read your update. I am so sorry for the passing of your father, and so grateful for you that you got to have that last day.
Although you are probably still reeling right now, I'm actually really excited for you that you are now completely, freely, NC with your mom. Whether she meant to or not (and I doubt it), she did you a favor and you are now completely free with her "Blessing". I agree with others that the "apology" is really not much of an apology but a break up text, and probably an attempt for it to look like SHE initiated NC, not you. Because she has to have the final word and be the winner.
Anyway, what matters is you are free now. Go enjoy your freedom.
I remember reading your original post, and just read your update. I am so sorry for the passing of your father, and so grateful for you that you got to have that last day.
Although you are probably still reeling right now, I'm actually really excited for you that you are now completely, freely, NC with your mom. Whether she meant to or not (and I doubt it), she did you a favor and you are now completely free with her "Blessing". I agree with others that the "apology" is really not much of an apology but a break up text, and probably an attempt for it to look like SHE initiated NC, not you. Because she has to have the final word and be the winner.
Anyway, what matters is you are free now. Go enjoy your freedom. #20
Week 1: Boundaries Make Us Better / Re: Healthy Boundaries: Litera...
Last post by sunshine702 - Yesterday at 08:16:37 AMIn phone calls with Narc mom I decided I would just press the end button when she was psychologically vomiting about my scapegoated brother with (((his bad thing))) du jour. I do not have to listen to it. I don't want to listen to it. I have tried reasoning and changing the subject but her childlike brain just HAS to. So my boundary is hanging up. I can claim dead cell phone or reception later if I want.
Having this "what I will do" boundary makes me feel better
Having this "what I will do" boundary makes me feel better