Out of the FOG

Hi All

This is my first 'proper' post. I've been NC with my uPDM for nearly 2 years.  From what I've been reading – and suffered - my M shows features of OCPD & NPD. With an amazingly supportive DH, I manage my guilt. Plus reading "But It's Your Family" by Sherrie Campbell was so helpful (thanks Out of the FOG member recommendation).

I have 'let' my two teenage DDs maintain a relationship with their grandmother. Perhaps I have expected too much of my DDs (in terms of maturity) but I want them to have control over the relationships in their life and how they manage them. Generally it has been OK.

Could the fact that my two DDs see their GM undermine what other family members understand? Perhaps they think my uPDM can't be THAT bad if she is still 'allowed' to have a relationship with her granddaughters?

Some family members I used to be close to have tried to be 'neutral' but it feels like they 'side' with my uPDM more – who can appear the most thoughtful & generous person to other people (my enF and I had the brunt of her toxicity behind closed doors). I know my uPDM has told them that 'losing' me was worse than losing her husband (my enF died 2.5 years ago)... and she plays the "I'm respecting OWIU's wishes, but am here for her if she wants me" card, which of course sounds very reasonable. I then appear the unreasonable one for maintaining the NC. Btw, I did offer to have mediation with my M before going NC and she refused.... previous attempts to have family T with my M&D about 5 years ago was disastrous; I realise now she was never going to see the 'truth' of her behaviour and actions.

So 'neutral' family members (aunt, cousins) don't understand really. They thought they could 'fix things' to start with. Now it feels like they think I'm being stubborn or should have 'relented' after all this time (plus uPDM getting older and a global pandemic which is supposed to "show us how important family is..."). Am I being paranoid and unfair to them? Should I just be grateful they are trying to be neutral and have interactions with me (albeit sporadic)? Have any of you managed to have relationships with neutral family members who also maintain a relationship with your PD parent?

My situation isn't exactly the same; it's my IL's that are uPD. I don't think you're being paranoid and unfair. It honestly depends on the person and how evolved they are emotionally. For example I blocked all of my IL's on social media (MIL, FIL, SIL, BIL and their spouses) however, I still kept DH aunt's, cousins, uncles, etc because they're not part of the problem. I then found out that one of DH aunt's had been sharing with my MIL everything that I was posting on social media. I politely told her that I would appreciate if she not share what I posted with them because I have them blocked for personal reasons. Her response was to unfriend her then and not to drag her into my "drama" with MIL (*eyeroll*). I also found out that another aunt (not on social media) was showing my MIL pics of my kids that I would send her. I asked her the same thing, to not share photos i send her. She agreed she would not. I still talk to her. I do not talk to the other aunt. I felt like that was an appropriate boundary; i have a private account and i blocked them for a reason. If they didn't want to respect that boundary, then I don't need them in my life. There was also one of DH cousin's that went to visit MIL and FIL  years ago for about a week and in that time MIL said some things that said cousin "overheard" and she unfriended me. I asked her about it and asked her what I did to upset her and her response was that it was easier to unfriend me because it's not like we're "close". She added me back, but I def don't go out of my way to talk to her and she doesn't either. I had her so she couldn't see my stuff for awhile so she wouldn't send anything to IL's but I realized that might affect the relationship I have with her siblings, M and D.

Anyways, I hope that helps. Usually your gut instinct is right. I commend you on allowing your children to make that decision. I would like to think when my kids get older, that I will have no problem with it, but right now they are still young and things have only gotten worse with my IL's.

Thank you engineer31. Not fair that our lives have to be this complicated, is it? - including having to 'second guess' ourselves and our decisions.  Your boundary setting sounds really good and the fact you 'ask people' about things. Most of my life I've been a conflict-avoider (probably due to my uPDM pulling a DARVO on anything I said or raised) so things just fester inside. Yes, had my kids been younger I would have included them in the NC. Good to get insights and tips from others who are striving to be/stay Out of the FOG. Thanks again.

Quote from: OWIU (Only Way Is Up) on April 28, 2021, 08:17:58 AM
They thought they could 'fix things' to start with. Now it feels like they think I'm being stubborn or should have 'relented' after all this time (plus uPDM getting older and a global pandemic which is supposed to "show us how important family is...").

Are these things said to you or just a feeling you get? If it's a feeling, I'd do my best to give them the benefit of the doubt and let it go. But if things are said directly to you, I would absolutely express a boundary, as engineer31 has suggested.

I'm not NC with my NPD/BPD mother, but almost every time I've spoken with my aunt (mom's sister) over the past 5+ years, she has some manner of flying monkey message for me about how I should call my mother more, etc. It occurred to me only recently that I've never told her I don't like this behavior. So the last time she did it (about a month ago), I told her that I know she means well, but if my mother wants or needs something from me, I'd prefer she tell me herself vs. communicate via third parties. She was a little huffy about it, but she did agree to not speak of it again. Only time will tell if she sticks to it or not. If not, I might stop speaking to her.

I think you could similarly tell your aunts and cousins that you appreciate their concern, but you'd rather not talk about your mother or your relationship with her.

I think it is very difficult to in fact be "neutral" when there is a falling out between family members like I and many members on this board have experienced. If the family system is FOGgy, likely the "neutral" people are as well to a greater or lesser degree. Unless the neutral people have very good boundaries, or are so distant anyway that there isn't much relationship to mess up, it's not going to work.

The fact that your family members thought they could "fix this" in the first place raises my eyebrow. Again, boundary issue. What makes a problem between two other people their right and/or responsibility to "fix"? And what does it mean to "fix it" anyway? In my experience, it means a return to the way things were before you rocked the boat. Right back to the status quo that was harming you so much in the first place. The language that you should have "relented" and the pandemic guilt trip indicates to me that these family members are not trying to understand you and be fair so much as they are trying to hang on to the previous version of "normal" for the FOO.

Since I went NC with my uBPDm, my grandmother has not mentioned my mother once in the handful of times I've called her. She has maintained a relationship with me, with no demands, no questions. I'm cool with that. So I call from time to time, announced the next great-grandchild is on the way, send cards/get letters. Pretty normal stuff.

I have not asked anyone to withhold pictures or information on my behalf. I look at it more as, what's between me and uBPDm is just between me and her and I don't want to involve anyone else in that. I'm not on social media, so that is hugely simplifying. But SIL is and I know my uBPDm friended her a while back and therefore sees all the group cousin pictures with my DS. I decided I don't care. My goal was not to keep her grandchild/children away from her, it was to protect our mental health and remove ourselves from abuse. I've succeeded with that goal, and for me that's all I need.

I would draw boundaries should anyone ask, and I have. The in-laws, having had a NC situation in the past, seem to expect that at some point I'll... I don't know, go back to the way things were? Because they did something similar in their family? My response is always the same: "We're still NC." "I haven't heard anything from her." Etc. But I also don't sugar-coat. It is what it is.

You do what you do not to punish anybody, but rather for your own protection. You have a basic right to do so. No one can take that away and they don't get to decide what it looks like for you. So if they start stepping on your toes about your decision, questioning your whys and why nots, you absolutely get to decide what that relationship looks like, or doesn't, going forward.

Sorry you are going through this..

there is no 'neutral'. You can prove it by laying out your exact issues with the abuse you've taken throughout your life to anyone that seems to be 'neutral'. Be specific and give details. You' find one of two things, they reject outright what you claim, or they will side with you to support. But I can almost 100% guarantee that there will be no neutral.

Additionally, in our family, the way this works is this: if you want access to any member of our family, you cannot treat any one member badly, and single them out. You either treat all of us kindly, or you stay away. Forever. End of story.

Early on I tried to maintain contact with those who claimed to be neutral, but it didn't work out. The primary issue I faced was one of being believed, that the truth of how I was treated as a child was not whitewashed and that the chronic gaslighting from my parents about what happened stopped. I had 'gone public' at the time and was openly telling anyone who would listen what had happened. This decision followed the fortification of a wall of denial by my parents which had led me to go fully no contact.

I was so burned out by the denial and gaslighting that I wasn't really able to tolerate people who tried to stay 'neutral' as this ultimately meant would not fully acknowledge the truth of what had happened to me and how damaging and hurtful the experiences were. If they had in fact believed me, remaining neutral would have been impossible. Belief is a yes/no type of thing. At one point a cousin try to say to me that "there's two truths, the one you are sharing and the one you father tells". I found this intolerable, child abuse can not be divided down the middle and neither could I.

Totally agree with you, theonetoblame, an absolutely intolerable statement about 'truth'; so sorry a cousin said that to you. You and TwentyTwenty have got me thinking about the fact that I haven't actually shared details (to others) of WHY I'm NC. I thought I was being fairer to these 'neutral' family members – allowing them to still have a relationship with uPDM. But, perhaps, there was/is part of me that fears having things 'downplayed' or not being believed at all.

Like you say, Andeza, it's about self-protection not punishment. Call Me Cordelia, you've got me thinking about 'FOGgy' nature of wider family and – absolutely – 'fix it' means back to before I rocked the boat!!

Cat of the Canals, some things are feelings so, you're right, I can only address things that are said.  Boundaries are definitely key, so I'm really interested in the examples you are all sharing.

Thank you everyone - you are amazing at offering non-judgemental support, reflections & advice..... the experiences you've all had provide such valuable insight. I've been on Out of the FOG since last summer – it was only last year (after a year of NC and things becoming clearer because I'd been 'released') did I realise PD was the issue and I'd experienced childhood psychological abuse.

My DH had said for years (we met 6 years ago) "your own mother shouldn't make you feel this rubbish about yourself". He has also been saying, since NC 2 years ago, that those people who are worth maintaining a relationship with should know / trust that I wouldn't have taken this step (to go NC) unless I HAD to.

Ironically (in a SC/GC type thing?) the rest of the family have benefitted from my NC action – as it's always been the case that when uPDM is not getting on with a person, she's always much nicer to everyone else!

Take care of yourselves everyone and thanks again.

The answer is YES. Yes you can. It is hard, and a risk, but it can be done.

My BIL has remained neutral, as have aunts and uncles, as we went NC with my in-laws. Most have directly said they support us and understand our decision, even as they remain neutral. I think we were lucky.

But remember this: most of us didn't understand our own lives for decades before going NC. So of course others don't get it. It would be an amazing coincidence if they suddenly figured it out the same year we did, let alone month or week.

We've tried to assume good intentions and politely ask inquisitors to respect our very difficult process as we blah blah blah. Losing some collateral relationships is probably common, but it can be minimized through our own discipline and understanding.

We did not allow our son, only 11 at the time, to maintain a relationship. At that young age we believed that doing so trapped us, and it was inappropriate for an abuser to trap us through their relationship with our son. If it had happened any later, that decision would be harder and harder to make.

Good luck!

Thanks Starboard Song - yes, even with insight, trying to understand my own life (and experiences) is ongoing!! Your managing of family relationship sounds good.
I often think of the quote "if you find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere"!!

I agree with twenytwenty. There is no neutral stance towards child abuse.

I think it takes courage to stand up for yourself the way you have.

I like the quote from Elle Weisel regarding this: there is no neutrality. "We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor not the oppressed."

That doesn't mean you can't spend time with certain FOO, just know that at some point when they are asked to decide something, their own integrity is what will either show up or go into hiding.

So many people want relationships to be easy. They don't want to choose sides. They don't want to make decisions that upset their own relationship with the PDs.

For those of us Out of the FOG, we have different concerns and different motivations. Part of how abuse works is that there are bystanders who "remain neutral".

And most of all, we didn't get the luxury of staying neutral. We did the hard work of saving ourselves from future abuse. There's nothing neutral about that.

Trees

Thank you treesgrowslowly - you've got me thinking about lots.
Relationships have never been easy for most of us, have they? And the fact we second guess ourselves so much is part of our hard work towards self protection, growth and fulfilment.

QuoteAm I being paranoid and unfair to them? Should I just be grateful they are trying to be neutral and have interactions with me (albeit sporadic)? Have any of you managed to have relationships with neutral family members who also maintain a relationship with your PD parent?

Neutrality is a real and valid option for these family members. It is certainly the case that you need to know this: if the circumstance arises that you need someone to take your side or take a stand, will they be there for you? Wanting to "fix it" is decent and kind: in 99% of human interactions it is exactly the behavior we all seek. When we deal with extremely toxic or PD people, we get ourselves on the other side of the looking glass, and we often have to abandon the oridnary rules and resort to NC, for instance.

If you will plausibly need these people to take your side or a stand, then their neutrality is not your friend. But otherwise, regardless of what terrible deed has ever been done, their neutrality is the normal human condition: most of us tolerate amazing things from family and close friends for the sake of family and close friends. Most of us did so in our precise circumstances for DECADES before going NC. I think it is a good idea for us to remember with humility how recently and for how long we tolerated these very same people from whom we now are NC.

You deserve more love in your life and not less. If the family you are speaking of bring you joy, if they respect you when you've explained yourself, if they do not badger you or betray you, if they invade neither your peace nor your privacy, then their neutrality is a blessing and I encourage you to work with them. You'll need to be careful, of course, and you have no obligation to be this open. You certainly never have to put yourself at risk, and never get burnt twice the same way.

I think this is  a really good question.

But im afraid if the people who are trying to be neutral dont understand what PD is then i think this is a forlorn hope if they stay in contact with PD members of the family. They are open to "the truth" of PD people which is often a real distortion of events. Its not an even discussion. 

I am in a camp of one, whilst my family of FOO are all in contact. So to any neutral or outsider im the one who appears to be odd.

Anyway, most people want an easy life and have their own problems and worries, why should mine be of any importance to them, its for me to deal with.

Just chiming in with my experience here, for what it's worth.

The short answer for me was, unfortunately, no.

When I called out my uPDm and enF over their lifelong blaming and scapegoating of me, and their denial of such, and their ongoing invalidation and gaslighting, three of my siblings were suddenly nowhere to be seen, despite two of them having stated that they agreed with me (and they had also spent years venting about our dysfunctional family's issues). When the shit hit the fan after I spoke up, these two wanted to remain 'neutral', yet neither bothered with me for about two years and kept up the pretence of happy FOO. I was really shocked, given the views they'd espoused over the years. Yet, I realised that when push came to shove, I was dispensable. I was heartbroken. But I am *very* much over it now. I used to get bitter sometimes when thinking about it, then I remember we all have the right to make the choices that seem right for us.

Somewhat predictably, though, they both reached out to me recently within a couple of months of each other when things were presumably looking less rosy for them, to tell me they missed me.  I guess thy hoped everything would be forgotten and we'd all be cosy again. While I have certainly forgiven them, i wasn't about to have my heart stamped upon again. I couldn't trust them at all by this point and politely said that while it was not an ideal situation I needed to put my mental health first. Rather than inquiring how I was or respecting my needs, both siblings then attacked me, one saying I 'just had to be right' (ironic, since she is a stickler herself for being 'right'), the other gaslighting and trivialising my concerns (while his own were then highlighted as being much more worthwhile). The other brother (uPD GCbro) accused me of of being a bully (this from a chap who has used physical violence against myself and enF, and has engaged in verbal bullying towards all family members for decades). So in my opinion, the 'neutral' parties were actually engaging in a great deal of projection towards me whilst actively protecting my parents, who they all privately profess to not be in the fog about, and who they have admitted on numerous occasions drive them mad. Yet when it comes to standing up to be counted, they have taken the road of least resistance. That's their choice. I accept it. But I'm not letting them back in.

So, in my experience, many people in toxic families are not 'neutral' wherever they may say.

QuoteSo, in my experience, many people in toxic families are not 'neutral' wherever they may say.

Exactly!  Anyone wishing to see if a family member is 'neutral' should perform this test:

Start listing one by one the abuses you have suffered and the boundaries that have been broken, the disrespect you have endured..

You'll get the 'real deal' from them, guaranteed!

There is no 'neutral'. It's a lie. Just another lie.

It very often is true that -- in a crunch situation -- even those trying to be neutral will let us down.

In our case, by brother-in-law and two aunts have been very much neutral for 5 years now and have never let us down. It may be uncommon, but it happens. I don't want folks to get the wrong idea, and start over pruning their family tree out of a fear of nonstop abuse, for instance. They DO need to be a bit vigilant, though, and a touch wary of what they share and how they might put themselves at risk.

I would say it depends on how your relative is like.

I'm "neutral" with my brothers and don't have as many problems with them anymore. My eldest brother still lives with my PDmom and interacts with my PDdad(both PDparents are separated). I told my eldest brother my boundaries. If my (nosy & gossipy) mother is around and we're on a phone call, he'll say he got to go and then text me later apologizing for the abrupt stop since PDmother is nearby. My older brother and younger brother still interact with our parents but a much less than elder brother,with the youngest brother being the one who least interacts with parents out of the brothers. I'm the only one that's completely NC and they know why and keep my business out of their mouth when around my parents.((Though I kinda don't care, because I won't be hearing PDparents talk crap anyways, and if they wanna tell our relatives how much of a P.O.S I am, then they can go right ahead.))

Before then, my brothers thought I was crazy, so, I would never bring up our parents and keep mostly LC with brothers if I could. Then they finally came around and said "Man, now I know why you went away from our parents. They act like [insert thing PDparent did]!"

As for "neutral" extended family or relatives...it just doesn't work for me to be honest. They patronize me and say "You'll come around,that's your MOTHER after all. You'll regret it if you don't". Sure, she is my mother but doesn't act like one and I've already reached out and tried multiple times to have a relationship with either parent, it just doesn't work out. I gave up on JADE (https://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain)ing and went "whatever you say" and left it alone.

I ended up just cutting off all my relatives except for my brothers. I don't know my dad's side of the family so we are NC by default. I know my mom's side of the family, and most live outside the country, so NC is easier. The ones where we live in the same city, I just ignore. They're extremely dysfunctional and I suspect have "fleas (https://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/fleas)" or are PDs themselves.


As far as children go...I have a child too, albeit he's still a baby. I've made attempts to have PDparents see son and interact, but PDfather shows hardly any interest and PDmother had made some critical comments about baby. For example, before he was born or really, before she knew I was pregnant, she would say that I shouldn't have a baby with partner because it'll come out as a drug baby. Note, I dont take ANY substance at all, my partner smokes greens and she said him doing that will make my baby a drug baby. Then she basically implied her grandson is not that important in her life at all because she doesn't know him and said "The only people I care about are my kids, I don't know grandson". Wow. Anyways, if my kid wants to interact with his grandparents on my side, I'll wait until he's a bit older and explain how they are, but ultimately let him choose if he wants to maintain a relationship. His relationship with his grandparents is separate from his relationship with me. If people want to judge me based on I'm NC with my parents but son is not in the future, they may go ahead. That's their problem, not mine. I'll be happily NC vs being in full contact and miserable. Also, I grew up differently than my son did with PDmother, so of course our relationships will vary towards her. Whether he wants to keep my PDparents in his life or go LC or NC with his PDgrandparents, that's fine.

I've had friend groups back in junior and senior high to where I didn't get along with my friend's friend due to them being toxic and let them know that I'm not friends with said toxic person and would rather they not keep bringing said person up or hang around them when they're around, but also said it does not change OUR friendship, because that's separate from me and toxic person.

I've also had the reverse during my college years/late teens-early twenties where my friends didn't all get along with each other, so I don't hangout with them all at the same time and respected that after one friend told me that X friend makes him uncomfortable/irritated.


TDLR; I would say it depends on if they respect your boundaries or not will determine if you are able to remain neutral with them. My brothers respect my boundaries but my relatives do not, so I'm NC with relatives. Also, you Dads relationship is separate from their relationship with you---and it's not anyone's place to judge you for being NC with your mom while your DDs may not be. They haven't grown up with mother and we're not treated how you were. If outsiders want to judge, that's their problem. Its fine if you want to stay NC! Please don't feel bad.

Hi relative X

Hello.

I was abused as a child, and even into my adult life by your (sister, aunt, etc), my mom. She has mental issues.

Oh, well I'm neutral, so I'm not going to take sides, I love you both.

So I wonder then, if she grabbed a belt and began thrashing your son until he's screaming for help and has stripes in his legs, you're still gonna be neutral?

'Fake' peace is not peace at all, it's actually full out war just waiting for the trigger.

Truth is the trigger.

I refuse to live in a lie, or denial of what I have endured because some relatives cannot deal with truth. They can all move along, nothing to see here. Bye! G'bye then!

But that's just me...

It's not just you, twenty-twenty. Child abuse is black and white, and against the law. In my situation, I eventually came to understand that the entire extended family knew things about mother's mental health history, and psychiatric hospitalizations, prior to my arrival but all kept their distance. This left me in an abusive bubble of isolation. In this way, I'm with befuddledclarity, extended family tends to say stupid stuff, things that are boilerplate. In fact, I'm pretty certain someone said exactly "you'll come around, and that's your MOTHER after all." I can hear the words ringing lol really, it makes me laugh how unimaginative and daft some of them are.

I must also acknowledge what I believe the intent of starboardsong's posts are i.e. once the family tree is pruned many of those branches won't grow back. My tree was felled years ago and now lives in virtual form on ancestry.ca. It's not something I would wish on anyone although it was a necessary outcome in my situation.

Quote from: theonetoblame on May 10, 2021, 05:05:09 PM
I must also acknowledge what I believe the intent of starboardsong's posts are i.e. once the family tree is pruned many of those branches won't grow back. My tree was felled years ago and now lives in virtual form on ancestry.ca. It's not something I would wish on anyone although it was a necessary outcome in my situation.

This is all so sensitive and very hard to communicate about. Part of that challenge is that we all have very different stories: some were victims of chronic and brutal abuse, others lived in the FOG because of a toxically negative upbringing by PDs, still others were raised ok but things have gone weird since then, as people aged.

Some of those cases are the sort where it would indeed be odd to declare neutrality. Some behaviors are so awful that any normal moral judge would turn their back on the perpetrator. Some of us in this thread had exactly those sorts of experiences. And for those people, it is hard to imagine accepting those who say, "yes, dear, I understand, but I love you both. I'll just stay neutral." For those people I imagine that the family tree is indeed felled and chopped and burned. Their experience is very real.

The original post asked only if it were possible to maintain relationships with family and friends who want to be neutral with regard to our PD parents. For many of us here the answer is an unequivocal yes. You absolutely can. And overpruning for those members only deprives us of ever more love that we all deserve in our lives.

I think this diversity of experiences is so important to acknowledge. I am glad it has been made so clear in this thread, so people can see that diversity and know that they too are unique and will find their own way.

Quote from: Starboard Song on May 10, 2021, 05:27:39 PM
The original post asked only if it were possible to maintain relationships with family and friends who want to be neutral with regard to our PD parents. For many of us here the answer is an unequivocal yes. You absolutely can. And overpruning for those members only deprives us of ever more love that we all deserve in our lives.

As someone who answered in the affirmative, that yes, I do believe it is possible to maintain such a relationship, I want to add this: Just because someone "in the middle" declares an intent to be neutral, and even if they do in fact appear to remain neutral, that doesn't mean you are obligated to maintain a relationship.

I can absolutely understand how this so-called neutrality could feel like complicity. Or like asking you to deny/keep quiet about your experience. Like Starboard Song said above, the diversity of our experiences makes it impossible to give a true one-size-fits-all response, especially when dealing with hypothetical questions.

Quote from: Cat of the Canals on May 10, 2021, 08:43:56 PM
As someone who answered in the affirmative, that yes, I do believe it is possible to maintain such a relationship, I want to add this: Just because someone "in the middle" declares an intent to be neutral, and even if they do in fact appear to remain neutral, that doesn't mean you are obligated to maintain a relationship.

Here! Here! There is way too much at stake, in these cases. Just as we are forced to be with the PDs in our lives, we have to take steps to care for ourselves. Nobody should ever feel guilty about the hard choices they are forced to. Thanks for adding that!

Quote from: theonetoblame on May 10, 2021, 05:05:09 PM
It's not just you, twenty-twenty. Child abuse is black and white, and against the law. In my situation, I eventually came to understand that the entire extended family knew things about mother's mental health history, and psychiatric hospitalizations, prior to my arrival but all kept their distance. This left me in an abusive bubble of isolation. In this way, I'm with befuddledclarity, extended family tends to say stupid stuff, things that are boilerplate. In fact, I'm pretty certain someone said exactly "you'll come around, and that's your MOTHER after all." I can hear the words ringing lol really, it makes me laugh how unimaginative and daft some of them are.

I must also acknowledge what I believe the intent of starboardsong's posts are i.e. once the family tree is pruned many of those branches won't grow back. My tree was felled years ago and now lives in virtual form on ancestry.ca. It's not something I would wish on anyone although it was a necessary outcome in my situation.

Yeah, it's a bit easier for me to cut off my relatives especially when they say silly things like that constantly but also...because I do not know them well even if I 'know' them[which was many years back...]. If I was as close to them as I am to my brothers, it would be a different story---though I was LC with my brothers for the longest time due to them siding with parents and ended up just doing me.

As for my brothers, I grew up with them and we get along fine while having many common interests and even perspectives. So, even though they keep in contact with our abusive parents, I'm not going to tell them "Hey, don't talk to them or else I'll cut you off!!". Their relationship with our parents is different from my relationship with them...I was the scapegoat and escaped lol. My younger bro is basically LC with parents while second older bro mostly phones in PDfather while oldest bro lives with PDmother and visits PDfather occasionally.

I think my brothers feel obligated to keep in touch with parents and haven't completely got Out of the FOG yet, especially my eldest brother, since he lives with PDmother.
I believe it's possible to have neutral party members---my brothers were completely against me siding with parents, but slowly started to understand once I left. I was the scapegoat, so parents had to take out their anger/aggression on someone else while I was gone--so now they know. They're not completely Out of the FOG, but getting to that point. When they vent about parents, I try to be kind and understanding, since I've went through it as well.

But yeah, it just depends on how that particular individual is like. Some people choose to be blind and ignorant and don't want to listen, some take a while to come around, others don't like choosing sides, and finally there's some who won't change because they have fleas or have PD themselves and think you're wrong...

My PDmother's side of the family thinks I owe my PDmother money for just...being my mother LOL. They expect ME to take care of her, perhaps because I'm the only woman out of the men siblings? It's just sexist and ridiculous. But it's also a cultural thing too, that I don't abide by so I'm a "mischievous rascal" in their eyes haha.

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I made a lot of grammatical and spelling errors while using mobile on prior post, I fixed them below using the computer this time lol:

Quote from: BefuddledClarity on May 09, 2021, 10:51:41 AM
I've had friend groups back in junior and senior high to where I didn't get along with my friend's friend due to them being toxic and let them know that I'm not friends with said toxic person and that I would rather they not keep bringing said person up nor would I want to hang around toxic person, but I also mentioned that it does not change OUR friendship, because that's separate from me and toxic person.

I've also had the reverse during my college years/late teens-early twenties where my friends didn't all get along with each other, so I don't hangout with them all at the same time and respected that after one friend told me that X friend makes him uncomfortable/irritated.


TDLR; I would say it depends on if they respect your boundaries or not will determine if you are able to remain neutral with them. My brothers respect my boundaries but my relatives do not, so I'm NC with relatives. Also, your DDs relationship is separate from their relationship with you---and it's not anyone's place to judge you for being NC with your mom while your DDs may not be. They haven't grown up with your mother and they were not treated how you were. If outsiders want to judge, that's their problem. Its fine if you want to stay NC! Please don't feel bad.

Quote from: Cat of the Canals on May 10, 2021, 08:43:56 PM
I can absolutely understand how this so-called neutrality could feel like complicity. Or like asking you to deny/keep quiet about your experience. Like Starboard Song said above, the diversity of our experiences makes it impossible to give a true one-size-fits-all response, especially when dealing with hypothetical questions.

I think you touch on something important here, at least for me. It is about acknowledgment.... That was the piece I needed in order to trust relationships with extended family. Acknowledgment requires accepting that I'm telling the truth. It most definitely never meant that the other party cut off my parents, simply that they recognize and are willing to talk about (even if only once and briefly) what happened. This is the thing none of them would do... I believe it's because my parents were so good at splitting and controlling the narrative, and because they never once budged from their lie. 

My previous responses were probably more polarized, but it really is about this one simple thing. This thing still stirs some arousal though..

Meh.

What does "neutral" mean, anyway?

I mean, who has the right to declare themselves "neutral" in a relationship between two other people?

It's so presumptuous! "I'm beyond your petty squabble," kind of nonsense.

If I am estranged from my mother, for example, my aunt has no business explaining her neutrality to me. And I dang well bet she's not saying that to my mom! Is my aunt cajoling *her* to reflect upon her life choices? Refusing to share photos or information because, after all, "she's your daughter?"

Nope, instead she's nodding and patting mom's hand as mom sniffles and dabs at the corner of her eyes over her "lost daughter." Sighing and agreeing that therapists only get one side of the story. That part of adulthood is accepting your parents make mistakes, too. And resolving, in her generous heart, to reach out to you and let you know how much mom misses you. To show her a photo, to bring her some comfort in her old age, even if she "never gets to see" her grandchildren.

:violin:

That's not being neutral.

However if Auntie is a rock who says, "Look, your mom is messed up and I get it. It's not your fault and you deserve more, but I know what she lived through and she's my sister, and that relationship is from long ago. So I do still see her and we talk, but we won't talk about you because I respect and honor your truth as much as hers." 

If you ask her about your family history and your aunt tells you a little about how grandpa used to drink a lot and granny gambled at the bingo hall, and your mom wound up taking care of your aunt, say, just to give you some perspective, but always with, "That doesn't make what she did to you ok," then that is useful information rather than gossip or flying monkeyness.

And if that rock solid aunt sees old mom, and when the waterworks start says, "I hear you're upset, but this is something you have to work on with your daughter or get professional help, because I can't mediate between the two of you. My relationship with her is different from my relationship with you," then I think old auntie might be worth keeping around.

Of course, an auntie who is that kind of neutral is probably going to hear it from mom, because PDs are not into neutrality, or responsibility, or productive conversation.

You'll know what is right for you by listening to your gut. Your gut will say, Oh thank heavens, here's the sane one! Or egads here comes other round of why don't you just call your mother?

 :yeahthat:   :applause:

Quote from: Leonor on May 11, 2021, 05:50:26 PM
What does "neutral" mean, anyway?

I mean, who has the right to declare themselves "neutral" in a relationship between two other people?

It's so presumptuous! "I'm beyond your petty squabble," kind of nonsense.

In my experience, we have had the rock solid aunt (but not an aunt) you describe in the second half of your post, and you nailed it, answering your question nicely: that description you gave is exactly what neutral means.

When he (the not-an-aunt) told us he was going to remain neutral, it wasn't presumptuous: it was a courtesy to us, letting us know that visiting with my in-laws was no disrespect to us, and assuring us he would respect us and our privacy. He certainly didn't mean to elevate himself above our problems, and I am so glad. He only meant that -- given all the pros and cons for him, in his life -- he believed he should maintain his relationship with these folks while respecting us and our privacy at all times.

Quote from: Leonor on May 11, 2021, 05:50:26 PM

However if Auntie is a rock who says, "Look, your mom is messed up and I get it. It's not your fault and you deserve more, but I know what she lived through and she's my sister, and that relationship is from long ago. So I do still see her and we talk, but we won't talk about you because I respect and honor your truth as much as hers." 

If you ask her about your family history and your aunt tells you a little about how grandpa used to drink a lot and granny gambled at the bingo hall, and your mom wound up taking care of your aunt, say, just to give you some perspective, but always with, "That doesn't make what she did to you ok," then that is useful information rather than gossip or flying monkeyness.

And if that rock solid aunt sees old mom, and when the waterworks start says, "I hear you're upset, but this is something you have to work on with your daughter or get professional help, because I can't mediate between the two of you. My relationship with her is different from my relationship with you," then I think old auntie might be worth keeping around.

Of course, an auntie who is that kind of neutral is probably going to hear it from mom, because PDs are not into neutrality, or responsibility, or productive conversation.

You'll know what is right for you by listening to your gut. Your gut will say, Oh thank heavens, here's the sane one! Or egads here comes other round of why don't you just call your mother?

That is some top tier, gold star level 'neutrality' you describe!  8-) It's also chock-a-block full of acknowledgement! Exactly what I was talking about. I would have accepted even a small amount of this and maintained contact. Instead, I got avoidance and silence... or conversations that seemed to start out reasonably but soon turned around to picking out problems within me. Those ones were the worst, just starting to think it's going to go well then -- bam!

Wait...what? You're NC with her but you allow her to have access to your kids?
What am I missing here? You as an adult consider this woman to be hazardous to your health but it's OK for your children to have a relationship with a person who abused you right into NC?

Have I got that right?

If so IMO, this is truly the crux of the problem: Mixed Messages. Which reflect Mixed Feelings. Your's. No, they are not mature enough to handle an abusive adult particularly when an *adult* can't manage the relationship. Holey Enmeshment.

I am NC with my parents and ILs, and so are my kids. I generally agree with the principle of too toxic for me, too toxic for my kids. And I've been solid in that with my own children. It was easier to decide for them because they were very young at the time I went NC.

That said, I have definitely had mixed feelings about it. I grieve for the loss of the hope of grandparents for my kids even three years later.

OWIU, it's got to be hard with teens. It makes sense to me that you would give them more autonomy in relationships as they approach adulthood, but still with the benefit of your guidance and support. It's not always so clear where to draw the line. They don't have the same history and relationship with your mother that you do, and yet they are still not adults, and it is still your duty to protect them.

From where I'm sitting, it looks like you are doing your best to be true to yourself and your needs and still be fair and even generous to other people. As far as how that will work out long term with your mother and kids and extended family, it may or may not be possible. As you can see from this thread, for many of us it wasn't. Whichever way the cookie crumbles, it's just hard.

I think there are many times when it is appropriate to allow an older teen to maintain a relationship with a grandparent from whom we are estranged due to a personality disorder. Toxic and PD people aren't dangerous in the same way that a spinning knife is dangerous: the danger is context dependent. PDs come in many grades, flavors, styles, and intensities. And the oldest teens are also adults, and deserve respect as adults.

For these reasons, there is no one-size-fits-all answer for anyone to abide by.

My wife and I are pushing 6 years NC from my in-laws. Because our son was only 11 at the time of our crisis, we allowed no ongoing contact. But we shared more as he matured, and ultimately restored to him responsibility for whether he wanted to receive mail from them or to contact them. We made it clear that there were still guardrails while he lived at home, but also said that respect for his sweet heart required us to respect his thoughtful mind, allowing him to decide for himself whether any contact at all was in order. He has decided that contact was not in order.

Quote from: TwentyTwenty on April 28, 2021, 08:53:24 PM
Sorry you are going through this..

there is no 'neutral'. You can prove it by laying out your exact issues with the abuse you've taken throughout your life to anyone that seems to be 'neutral'. Be specific and give details. You' find one of two things, they reject outright what you claim, or they will side with you to support. But I can almost 100% guarantee that there will be no neutral.

I absolutely agree 👍🏼. This is very true, definitely no neutral ground.

I know that you posted this a couple of weeks back, but if it is any help I can share my experiences with my in-laws and my family of origin.

I have a chilly relationship with my MiL and FiL. I will see them 1-2x per year, bu we don't otherwise talk. My spouse talks to them more often on special occasions but otherwise tries to avoid most of his family. About four years ago I started to come Out of the FOG after a visit at the winter holidays, and I couldn't see my in-laws the same way after that. It is not that they did anything monumentally awful during the visit, I just started to settle into a clarity that their behavior was intentional, hurtful, and not going to change. Further, I was coming into a place with my maturity and self esteem where I was able to believe for the first time that this wasn't normal and I didn't deserve it.

In conversations with a sibling in-law and sibling's spouse, we had for years named behaviors from the parents in-law that drove all of us around the bend. After I started coming Out of the FOG, I became a bit more decisive in talking about what behaviors were upsetting me and describing the damage those behaviors cause. I was also a bit more open about how I used alcohol as a coping mechanism when I was around the parents in-law. This seemed like a safe conversation because the sibling in-law, sibling's spouse, my spouse, and I would often drink together and verbally process after larger family gatherings. I discovered the hard way that sibling in-law and sibling's spouse do not see things the same way that I do. They are more likely to try to normalize parents in-laws' behaviors. They are also likely to say, essentially, "That's annoying, but don't take it personally/I don't think they meant it that way." The message I received is that members of my spouse's family are not fully emotionally safe for me even though they are "nice" people who seem to want to have me in their lives. I learned to put a lot of guardrails on what I will say and to adopt some medium chill strategies. I don't need to know who's on whose side, and I suspect it may vary by day and level of personal tolerance/frustration. All I know is that these are not fully safe people, and their boundaries are radically different from mine, so I treat them as acquaintances. 

The down-side to this way of thinking is that to label someone in mind my as "not fully emotionally safe for me" means acknowledging that I do not trust them. And without trust, I can't feel that I love someone. I can like aspects of that person and respect their choices, but it's not a true reciprocal and supportive relationship. That has caused me to distance myself some. It only makes sense, and I have no regrets. There was just some grief in the process.

Quote from: Leonor on May 11, 2021, 05:50:26 PM
If I am estranged from my mother, for example, my aunt has no business explaining her neutrality to me. And I dang well bet she's not saying that to my mom! Is my aunt cajoling *her* to reflect upon her life choices? Refusing to share photos or information because, after all, "she's your daughter?"

Nope, instead she's nodding and patting mom's hand as mom sniffles and dabs at the corner of her eyes over her "lost daughter." Sighing and agreeing that therapists only get one side of the story. That part of adulthood is accepting your parents make mistakes, too. And resolving, in her generous heart, to reach out to you and let you know how much mom misses you. To show her a photo, to bring her some comfort in her old age, even if she "never gets to see" her grandchildren.

:violin:

That's not being neutral.

However if Auntie is a rock who says, "Look, your mom is messed up and I get it. It's not your fault and you deserve more, but I know what she lived through and she's my sister, and that relationship is from long ago. So I do still see her and we talk, but we won't talk about you because I respect and honor your truth as much as hers." 

If you ask her about your family history and your aunt tells you a little about how grandpa used to drink a lot and granny gambled at the bingo hall, and your mom wound up taking care of your aunt, say, just to give you some perspective, but always with, "That doesn't make what she did to you ok," then that is useful information rather than gossip or flying monkeyness.

And if that rock solid aunt sees old mom, and when the waterworks start says, "I hear you're upset, but this is something you have to work on with your daughter or get professional help, because I can't mediate between the two of you. My relationship with her is different from my relationship with you," then I think old auntie might be worth keeping around.

:yeahthat: x100 Thanks for putting that so well.

In fact I've asked for this sort of thing in FOO: However if Auntie is a rock who says, "Look, your mom is messed up and I get it. It's not your fault and you deserve more, but I know what she lived through and she's my sister, and that relationship is from long ago. So I do still see her and we talk, but we won't talk about you because I respect and honor your truth as much as hers."  and of course I was told it was impossible. That was long ago - 20 years ago.

I also have 2 "friends" presently claiming to be neutral or to support me but at the same time in one case who accepted a phone call from my M who is "soooo worried about me" despite me having clearly said "No way." and despite the fact that M is welcome to send me an email or letter, just no phone calls.  The second "friend" ended up supporting the first, though they aren't actually even friends. They know of each other, have met each other. The second "friend" has to feel kind of sorry for my F because he's a "nice guy". Yeah, a nice guy who didn't protect his children from his violent wife and a bunch of stuff of that nature.

So that's a further problem - people who claim to be neutral or even on your side and go and betray you. I've set my boundaries with "friend" no. 1 and am working on it with "friend" no. 2 - it's a really recent development in her case. I don't even think they are PDs, but they have started discounting my opinions and they question my actions because I am clearly surviving rather than really thriving in the normal sense of the word.

I know you're talking about FOO mbrs here, but this "I'm neutral" topic can apply to others too. My "friends" got to know my parents through me, at a time when I was back in contact 10 years ago or so. So it's not as if they were already long-term friends with each other, like family friends from way back.

Quote from: carrots on May 18, 2021, 08:08:35 PMI also have 2 "friends" presently claiming to be neutral or to support me but at the same time in one case who accepted a phone call from my M who is "soooo worried about me" despite me having clearly said "No way." and despite the fact that M is welcome to send me an email or letter, just no phone calls.  The second "friend" ended up supporting the first, though they aren't actually even friends. They know of each other, have met each other. The second "friend" has to feel kind of sorry for my F because he's a "nice guy". Yeah, a nice guy who didn't protect his children from his violent wife and a bunch of stuff of that nature.

This just goes to show how easily people can be manipulated I think. F also pulled similar tactics when I told him that I wouldn't be taking phone calls anymore but that we could communicate by text or email (phone calls had become extremely stressful and unpleasant). He pretty much contacted everyone around him to talk about me and claim to be worried (even my mother in law!) and apparently posted something stupid on Facebook, but would he respect my boundary and just send me an email to discuss it with me directly? Would he heck. He was just after sympathy, validation and attention from other people. It is gutting when people fall for things like that. I stopped using Facebook because if anyone fell for it then I didn't want to see it and get upset.

QuoteSo that's a further problem - people who claim to be neutral or even on your side and go and betray you. I've set my boundaries with "friend" no. 1 and am working on it with "friend" no. 2 - it's a really recent development in her case. I don't even think they are PDs, but they have started discounting my opinions and they question my actions because I am clearly surviving rather than really thriving in the normal sense of the word.

I know you're talking about FOO mbrs here, but this "I'm neutral" topic can apply to others too. My "friends" got to know my parents through me, at a time when I was back in contact 10 years ago or so. So it's not as if they were already long-term friends with each other, like family friends from way back.

I'm sorry your friends have reacted like this, it seems that they have involved themselves emotionally more than they should. The one who took the phone call from your M could so easily have just ignored the call, or answered and told your M that she didn't want to be involved and that she should send an email or letter, as per your wishes.

Can we maintain a relationship with a non-PD person who chooses to also maintain a relationship with the PD from whom we are fully estranged? Semantic issues of neutrality aren't necessary to answer that question.




• If your experience was not the sort of hard, direct abuse that demands a firm moral judgment from everyone
• If they don't pester you about the PD, and respect your need for peace
• If you can enjoy their company without risking a significant breach of privacy

Then yes. Yes, you absolutely can, but there is risk.




• Might they one day turn on you? Yes, people sometimes let us down. But that is inherent in all relationships.
• Will they continue to talk to the PD on friendly terms, and sometimes share something with you, like how they had a nice lunch together? Yep.
• Will they even, from time to time, encourage you to consider reaching out to the PD? Of course! In 99% of all interpersonal conflicts that is exactly the right advice to give. And most of us needed decades of being in the hot seat before we realized the problem and solved it. And that is not being a flying monkey, so long as it is respectful, and responsive to your clear statements. That is, from time to time, making a little entreaty seems to me to be totally normal and healthy, while bullying and pestering are not.

There are tons of horror stories, and no -- we can't expect perfection out of anyone. But I am almost 6 years NC with my in-laws, and we maintain close, loving relationships with other family members who visit with them often and plainly love them. So it is entirely possible. Not for all of us, to be sure. There are too many different experiences here for us to be the same. But I want to emphasize again that it is possible: perhaps not uncommon. I respect those for whom it doesn't work

Be good. Be strong.

Hm, perhaps it might be clearer to look at this situation from your point of view.

You can even make a list. Who are the people you are wondering about? Brainstorm names without thinking about them yet. Just a quick list of names, not titles: Betty Smith, not Aunt Betty. Jack Wilson, not cousin Jack. Eliza Poe, not Mom.

Then go one at a time. Ask yourself:
Do *you* want this person in your life? Again, not Aunts or Cousins. Betty Smith. Jack Wilson.

After asking each name, "Do you want Betty Smith in your life?", notice what happens inside you. If you feel (not think) "No!", "Not really, actually," or "Um, not so much," put an X next to their name. Don't think twice! Just X and move on.

If you feel (not think), "Absolutely!", "Yes," or "Yeah, I think so," put a check next to their name. If you find yourself smiling while you make the check mark, put two!

If you feel (not think), "Don't know," "I'm not sure," or "Ummm," then put a question mark next to their name.

Now look at your list. Who are the people you really want in your life? The double-check marks are people who have earned your trust. The people with the X mark have undermined your trust. And the question mark people, well, they'll clear that up for you pretty soon.

You might find that there are only a few people on your list. Maybe it's Jack Wilson, but not Betty Smith. Maybe there's no one. Or everyone has a question mark.

What this list will do is prioritize *you* instead of them. You don't question whether your abuse was "that bad," or whether you are being "unfair without cause" or "depriving" yourself of a family.

Instead, you are the arbiter of who *you* believe deserves to have *you* in their lives based on how they have treated *you*.

Best of all, the list is yours. You don't have to do anything else with it. It's just to be aware: "okay, there's a family picnic and the one person I really like won't be there." Do you go? Maybe not! And if you do, you go in aware. "Man, I'll go, but I won't stay long 'cause these people are crazy."

You get to decide!

How did you know how much I love lists, Leonor, and that I've got an Aunt called Betty Smith and a cousin called Jack Wilson?!! I think I'd already started doing 'mental lists' of people – including friends (carrots, this isn't just about FOO, I agree).

Thanks to you all for such thoughtful insights, advice and sharing of experiences. It is heart-breaking to read everyone's abuse and traumas ... and inspiring to hear strategies and ways to self-care and move forward.

I'm drawn to "there is no one-size-fits-all answer for anyone to abide to" (Starboard Song). A lot of you are talking about diversity of experience and choice (whether carefully considered or gut-instinct). And we've all had enough guilt in our lives, haven't we?

Yet I still second-guess myself. And of course I have mixed feelings, Tundra Woman. 
In my original post I suggested that maybe the 'neutral' FOO members think my uPDM can't be 'THAT bad' if she still has a relationship with her granddaughters. Perhaps I'm thinking this myself, too, deep down. And so more second-guessing ensues. And if I have mixed feelings then it'd be hardly surprising that my 'neutrals' have them?

When I see the phrase "too toxic for me, too toxic for my kids" I agree with it and I desperately hope I don't regret the fact my DDs have contact with their GM. Part of the context of my story (which feels like me justifying my decision to myself and you guys!) is that I went NC two years ago without realising that was what I was doing. I didn't know my M had an uPD – I just knew I couldn't cope anymore and I needed to not see/communicate with her (which I now know is called 'NC'). I assumed for quite a while, naively, that she would agree to mediation and that - at some point - a 'relationship' would be back, albeit with agreed boundaries (helped by a mediator).

If I thought my DDs had been, or were being, harmed by the contact with their GM then I would stop it. But perhaps I'm in denial? After all, I had to get to middle age before I realised that what was happing (and had happened) was harm/abuse. I don't know... questions lead to more questions. It can feel exhausting, can't it?!

It really can exhaust you.

Let me remind you of what you already know: "too toxic for me, too toxic for my kids" is about children, not grown offspring. And PDs who do a great deal of harm to us are not universally that harmful. So it is perfectly reasonable that you may allow your older teens to maintain a relationship with someone from whom you are NC. It would also be perfectly reasonable, depending on circumstances and the ages of your kids, that you may discourage or forbid that. Anyone who insists that it is plainly wrong to do either should practice more humility.

I am glad you are getting the space you need. I am glad you are processing these hard decisions about collateral relationships. Keep being open and kind to people while respecting your boundaries, and your kind heart will be recognized by most all healthy people. There will be some losses, and that breaks my heart for you.

But if you will be patient with healthy people just don't understand (and don't need to, as long as they treat you right), you'll minimize that loss and maximize the love in your life. Something a PD person can rarely do with much success.

Be good. Be strong.

I think I understand! I too "went NC" without realizing that was even a thing. Like you, I just knew I couldn't handle them at that time. Fully expecting we'd work it out when I was feeling better (physically). That very quickly proved impossible.

Piggy-backing on what Starboard said, I think that you are second-guessing shows that you CARE. That you have empathy and kindness. And that this is just hard. Of course, it doesn't serve you to continuously do so, but being willing to do that gut-check periodically will help you stay in tune with what your values really are, and give you long-term faith in your decisions. If you do find you need to make a change, that's ok. That doesn't mean you were wrong, it just means that people and relationships and circumstances change. And you are able to discern and adapt.

Thanks so much, both of you – such reassuring words.

I tried to practise being open minded with a visit from a 'neutral' FOO last week (aunt). Used advice from this thread and attempted not to overthink (while feeling a little cautious). Went better than I'd thought it would! After a lifetime influenced by my uPDM's negativity and catastrophising, it feels liberating to try and be more accepting and not frightened by change.

I'm so glad Out of the FOG exists. Take good care everyone.

Quote from: OWIU (Only Way Is Up) on May 25, 2021, 09:20:43 AM
Thanks so much, both of you – such reassuring words.

I tried to practise being open minded with a visit from a 'neutral' FOO last week (aunt). Used advice from this thread and attempted not to overthink (while feeling a little cautious). Went better than I'd thought it would! After a lifetime influenced by my uPDM's negativity and catastrophising, it feels liberating to try and be more accepting and not frightened by change.

I'm so glad Out of the FOG exists. Take good care everyone.

Congratulations on this progress! I'm curious, did you seek any sort of acknowledgment from your aunt about the behavior of your mother and why this led you to go NC? Every situation is different and it may not be necessary for you. If you did, I'm just wondering how that process went.

I was inspired by this thread to reach out to a cousin by email (not the same one referenced above). It actually went well, and he acknowledged both the abuse he experienced from my aunt (mother's sister) and that my experiences were traumatic and damaging... I'm not sure what to do with the information though... still thinking it through. It is a first for me, but this isn't my thread and I'm curious to learn about your experiences.

This is ALL of our threads and ALL of our experiences, isn't it – with all the similarities and all the differences.

That sounds like quite a step, theonetoblame. You say it went well, which sounds positive. But how did (do) you feel?

I didn't 'address' anything with my aunt. She was actually in the area to visit my uPDM (her sister) and came to see me for the evening – which is why I was worried it would be awkward. It was as if there was an 'unconscious agreement' to not talk about my M and I tried to take the visit on the merit of what it was. My aunt is very close in age to me, so she was more like MY sister growing up (I'm an only). She and I took it in turns to be the SG/GC. So, as I'm NC, my aunt doesn't (appear to) experience toxicity from my M (her sis) these days. But I think both her and I miss the closeness we used to have. This sounds awful, but I wonder if my aunt and I might be able to reconnect in the future when my uPDM has died... though I assume her bitterness will keep her going for many, many years yet (sorry if that sounds terrible).

I've got cousins (on my paternal side – but 'tainted' by my uPDM) that I'd like to connect with .... or find out if there's no point/benefit in doing so. Comments on this thread has made me hopeful with a dash of cautiousness.

Have you got an ideal 'next step' in your head, theonetoblame?

We've nailed this down:

If someone is clearly faking it, that is a fake peace and cannot be trusted.

If, given your circumstances,  neutrality is morally unconscionable then that too is a fake peace.

Many of us face neither situation and have achieved real and loving relationships with non-PDs who chose to maintain relationships with our PDs. This too is a totally valid and achievable path.

More love is good. Less love is bad. Fake love is no love at all.

Quote from: OWIU (Only Way Is Up) on May 28, 2021, 03:56:49 PM
That sounds like quite a step, theonetoblame. You say it went well, which sounds positive. But how did (do) you feel?

But I think both her and I miss the closeness we used to have.

Thanks OWIU, my plan is to do nothing  :) at least for now. He has my number, and I have his... I think this is a long term sort of thing so I may give him a call in a few weeks or something, although I would feel better if he called me. At the same time, I'm rather detached and ambivalent about it. He did, after all, ignore previous attempts at communication re this topic. I don't have enough trust with him to extend myself.

Then there's my uBPD/bi-polar brother who drunk dialed my office a few days ago and became belligerent with my wife because she wouldn't engage in his grandiose ranting... well, so much material so little time  :tongue2: Like many things, I'm just over it and don't really engage emotionally anymore. This detachment is a bit contagious though and is probably seeping into my recent cousin experiences. I should probably add that he's my 1/2 sibling and we didn't grow up together, which makes his intrusive and disruptive behavior all the more bizarre.

I wonder, with your Aunt, if the thing that might provide the trust and stability you both need to be closer is to acknowledge the truth of your experiences. Perhaps, it might be, at least remotely possible that once you know you can trust her with the truth, and that she doesn't deny or judge, it may be easier for you both to let down your guard. You sort of describe an 'elephant in the room' situation where you both chose not to talk about it. This certainly shows me that you both value the relationship more than this specific issue. Just some thoughts... I know for myself it doesn't need to be an ongoing conversation but sometimes things just need to be said... ?? You be you though 8-)

Hmm, interesting question.

I truly think the answer to this is, if you've come Out of the FOG and you've set boundaries with toxic people, then YOU are neutral.

Anyone trying to play the middle game is just half in, half out the fog.

Don't get me wrong, if a more distant family member has never seen the abusive behaviour from the PD individual and they respect any boundaries that you set, then sure, they're neutral.

Anyone else who's trying to make someone do something they don't want to for the appearance of "family" is at least half in the fog, and therefore not neutral.