Out of the FOG

Boundaries;    What are they?
A boundary is a limit or edge that defines you as separate from others.

Types of boundaries
Physical
Emotional
Spiritual
Sexual
Relational

Boundaries bring order to our lives. Boundaries empower us to determine how we'll be treated by others. With good boundaries, we can have the wonderful assurance that comes from knowing we can and will protect ourselves from the ignorance, meanness, or thoughtlessness of others.

You have a limit to what is safe and appropriate.
You have a border that separates you from others.  

As we learn to strengthen our boundaries, we gain a clearer sense of ourselves and our relationship to others.

For more information on setting and exericising healthy boundaries, please visit:
ILoveULove.com (http://www.iloveulove.com/relationmarriage/boundaries.htm)

Rules vs Boundaries

This is where a lot of people get confused.

Basically rules are about someone else and boundaries are about us.

An example might be:

Rule:

You may not use something of mine without permission.

Boundary:

If my things are used without permission, I will remove them from availability.

Another example:

Rule:

You will not speak disrepectfully to me.

Boundary:

If I am spoken to disrefectfully, I will leave until the conversation can continue respectfully.

Rules are made to be broken and there is always an exception to one. Boundaries are consistent always.

Basically, rules are about the other person and attempts to control their actions; boundaries are only about us and what we will do if they are crossed.

Cagey

Thanks for bumping this thread back into view CW.  Such an important topic for a non!

Quoteboundaries are only about us and what we will do if they are crossed.

Yup.  So how do we set boundaries effectively when we are dealing with a PD who will try to violate those boundaries?

"A boundary is like a tea strainer. It allows the fluidity between people but catches the "stuff" of transference which can become imposing." (author unknown)

4 Step model for setting boundaries

1. Calmly inform the other person by stating, "I feel uncomfortable and want to shut down when you yell at me."

2. Request that they honor your boundary. "I ask that you talk to me without yelling." Or ..For me to listen and hear what you are saying to me, I need to you speak to me in a calm voice without yelling.

3. Insist that they honor your boundary, again with a firm but kind voice, "I insist that when we are talking we talk in calm voices."

4. Leave the situation. Now is not the time or place to continue communicating with someone who refuses to respect your boundaries. Leave the door open to talk later in a more respectful manner. Continue to maintain a calm but firm voice and say, "I will not continue this conversation in this way. I welcome an opportunity to talk with you without yelling or screaming at another time. Let me know if you decide to visit without raised voices."

-From "Setting Boundaries in Relationships" By Judy H. Wright


The Steps Of Setting Boundaries

1. Be prepared to observe and feel the feeling without reacting.

This is the creation of the "gap" in order to not revert to previous reactions and previous wounds. Then you are capable of dealing with the issue in a mature and an empowered space in the present moment.

2. Realize that no-one else is responsible for fixing your negative feelings.

It's your job. This is an essential part of the steps that keeps you connected to your own power.

3. Connect to who you are (principle-centered identity) and what your truth is on the matter.

Be prepared to calmly and clearly state and walk this truth. BE COURAGEOUS! State your truth as an "I" statement, not a "You" statement. For example: "I feel uncomfortable about doing that, so the answer is no," rather than saying, "I can't believe you'd expect me to do that."

4. Detach from being connected to an individual or group validating your feelings or "getting" where you are coming from.

If you are reliant on another person for validating your feelings and understanding your point of view, your emotions and mental state will be dictated by this person. They don't need to "get" you. YOU need to "get" you.

5. Detach from being connected to a particular outcome being created with that person or that situation.

This is true identity assertion. It means you are aware that you have the power to create your truth (even if it takes time), regardless of what circumstances life throws at you. This is the philosophy of aligning with durable long-lasting results. This point grants you ultimate freedom, because you no longer give in to quick-fix solutions that don't stand the test of time.

If certain situations and people aren't matching your truth, they will either adjust their behavior or depart from your reality. What you can be assured is that your life will fill with details, events and people that are the truth of you. Think about it...your life has always worked with this formula, whether you are conscious of it or not!

You and you alone are the creator of your own reality. And this reality is created by your boundaries.

-From "Setting Boundaries In Relationships: How to Keep the Good In and the Bad Out" By Melanie Evans

My experience with my boyfriend is very effective, even though it took a while for him to respect the boundary that I had set. I decided not to keep going in a conversation where I am yelled at, not heard at and when he starts the typical blame trip. I always let him know when I stop listening and talking to him and why. When he yells I tell him "I am not talking to you any further because you are yelling" or "I am no longer in this conversation with you because you don't listen to what I have to say and how I feel and see the situation". And I am sticking to it. He keeps insisting on talking because he wants it off his chest....he learned to calm himself down and then he starts again and as soon as he gets back into a direction where he crosses my boundaries I cut it off again....At first he got extremely irritated, but I made it through. After several incidences like this he began to realize that he cannot force me into a conversation and response etc....
This was a little frightening for him because he is no longer in control - he tried the threatening with other things  like kicking me out or calling the police. I told him that he could do whatever he wants and needs to do, but that it would not impress me and scare me. So, the scare tactic lost its power as well. But it took him a while to realize....
Since then our arguments whenever something minor rubs him are more under control. I cannot stop him from getting irritated about something, but I can have a certain control of having a big fight or not. You cannot have a fight with yourself.....
And to my very surprise I can reach much farther and he listens better to what I have to say, still he often believes firmly in his right point of view etc....but at least he listens....that is one step closer....
And the biggest plus...no big blow ups!!!!!

I haven't told this in a while because it is just my own idea and could be so wrong that I don't suggest it as areal form of boundaries but I think its pretty cool and kinda makes sense.

I think we all know that there has to be a consequence attached to each boundary and enforced each time one is crossed.

So for example if a person starts yelling at you you could set a boundary that each time that happens I'm going to leave the room. If you follow through with that then you will never experience them yelling at you again because you won't be there to hear it....Cool hey !

Problem is I didn't get into the relationship to leave the room. I got into it because I wanted to be in the room with this person not the other way around. If the person keeps up the behavior then you will be leaving the room over and over again. You could then just ramp up the consequence over and over again but eventually the relationship would and should come to an end. So I figured why should I have all these different consequences for each of my boundaries. Knowing that some should be ridged and some should have some give to them would take different levels of consequences to match the crime.

So I came up with the concept that the consequence for crossing any boundary would be the same....The relationship would be over......But :cool2:

There would be a coupon book issued for each one with different amounts of coupons in each book.

For example for cheating she would open up her coupon book for that and find none....The relationship is over.

In the coupon book for yelling there could be 100.

So the incentive could be this: She has been yelling twice a week for the past 8 months . I could look in the book and say, "Honey....You know the consequence for running out of coupons is the relationship will be over and you have just 36 coupons left."..."You may want to start to get a handle on that." ;)

Gary,

I disagree that we need to add consequences...because of natural consequences that follow by withdrawing and turning away when the conversation becomes uncomfortable.
The PD wants to be heard and wants all attention in the world at the same time, when they have their blow up. If you dont' give them that....they are not being heard and have no attention at all. They are left alone with their need to blow up and blame game etc.....
While the PD is self-centered and less caring about others and their opinions and feelings, they still have a desire to be connected with someone, especially those they actually care for. If you take this connection away...they are hurt and confused. They have a strong desire to get connected again....

It is like touching an electrical wire fence....every time they blow up and get disconnected by the other person -  they touch it and get an electric shock (being left alone)
They do it over and over again...while it doesn't feel good, they have to learn that as long as they act up the wire is giving me a shock....and at one point they are trying different ways to get past this wire....and learn that if they calm down and show more respect and listen....hey, there is no electric shock and I can get beyond the fence....

It takes a while and a lot of patience....but I can clearly tell it works.
Whenever I walk away...there is silence for a while, but it doesn't really take that long that my boyfriend comes to me again with another attempt. In the beginning the attempt was hairwire again...so I cut it off again (electric shock again) and the more I did it, the more he learned...this doesn't work anymore.
But he was clearly showing the desire to reconnect to me while he was unable to realize that he didnt' have himself under control at all....He learned to gain more control and to realize how he was/is acting and that it was not getting him anywhere anymore.
I used to give him all the attention he wanted - but it was negative attention that he received. At this point it goes back to a very simple principle children sometimes use - better negative attention than no attention at all.
It appears to me that the PD wants a lot of attention due to his ego and self-centered personality. They care less in a rage moment if it is positve or negative - they DO get attention one way or another - while the negative is not getting them anywhere.

What about you and your sons needs to live in a peaceful household that dosen't involve walking through a mine field.

Even in the healthiest of relationships people need boundaries and consequences. It's what keeps each person an individual and free to be themselves but with each other. It's what keeps countries free. It's not so much the boundary that keeps America free but the consequences of trying to take that away.

It's all through nature. It's what keeps a lions cubs safe and able to grow into a healthy lion.

Otherwise without them we become prisoners.

Can you imagine the total chaos that would exist here if there were not guidelines and consequences for not following them.

Can you imagine driving across town tomorrow with your son in the car if during the night they removed all the traffic signals.

Someone has to say, "Everything stops right here right now !"

Someone has to say, "Everything stops right here right now !"

That was exactly how it was in all my previous experiences of PD relationships and the person to say it was me. Sadly, I kept skipping onto a slightly lesser disordered individual for my next round but there did come a point in my last relationship where I had some kind of epiphany.  I was going off at my kids over something small because I was so stressed and upset with xAvpd's distancing, it was something in my girl's faces -  a look of complete hurt mixed with confusion over my behaviour towards them, that's what  finally woke me up.  That's when I had my ultimate "Everything stops right here right now!" moment and I started making the genuine changes I needed to in myself and my own life in order for me and my children to have healthier lives in general.  I was a prisoner but I will not be one again.

I'm late to welcome you here Beadreamer but I have been following your posts.  I would just like to suggest that you try putting your needs and those of your son's first. Just because your partner has a PD does not give him the right to cause you and your son problems, but it is up to you to set the boundaries and the consequences here or he will just keep on trampling to the detriment of you both.  There is plenty of information here in the Non PD toolbox and other resources that can help you.  My sincere good wishes, Klarity Belle.

QuoteProblem is I didn't get into the relationship to leave the room. I got into it because I wanted to be in the room with this person not the other way around.

Good point.  Relationships are about give and take.  If one person is doing all the giving and logical thinking and jumping through hoops to keep the other person on an even keel, that is not an equal partnership.

QuoteSo I came up with the concept that the consequence for crossing any boundary would be the same....The relationship would be over......But  

Agreed.  At some point unless we are fulfilling a co-dependent need of our own by remaining with an abusive person, then leaving is the best option.

There are, of course, all sorts of psychotherapeutic tactics and techniques we could use to keep the PD calm, but a relationship should not be about one person constantly providing therapy to another so that person could behave like a normal human being.

That is why people sometimes put people with the aggressive form of Alzheimer's in a home.  It is not to be cruel, but because they need to get back their life.   No one faults someone who puts an Alzheimer's patient in an appropriate care facility, particularly because some alzheimer's patients can no longer feed and cloth themselves.

Unlike an Alzheimer's patient A PD can fend for themselves and can still provide for their own basic needs and care.  

Moreover, they are actually extremely good at getting their own needs met and at manipulating others to serve them.  Hence there is no need to ensure that a PD is cared for in continuing care facility as there is with a once loving person who develops Alzheimers.

Quote from: "gary"Even in the healthiest of relationships people need boundaries and consequences. It's what keeps each person an individual and free to be themselves but with each other. It's what keeps countries free. It's not so much the boundary that keeps America free but the consequences of trying to take that away.

We also have to look at Natural Consequences, when there is no need to add a consequence to a set boundary or rule.

Simple example. My son has the tendency to go to the bus stop last minute. I told him that if he misses the bus, he will have to walk all the way to school and explain the reason to his teacher and won't get an excuse for his tardiness from me. So, if he does miss it....he ends up with his own consequences....I am not able to bring him AND would not do so in this case. Period.

If myh son chooses to eat the whole bag of chips all at once, he won't have any for the rest of the week. He can choose and he feels the consequence...no need to add a consequence.

If my boyfriend gets a blow up and talks to me in an unacceptable way - I am not available for him.

Quote from: "gary"What about you and your sons needs to live in a peaceful household that dosen't involve walking through a mine field.

Yes, for a long time it felt like walking through a mine field on a daily basis. But we both learned over time to care less about a couple of things...by thinking he will blow up over something anyway, so why being so cautious in first place. I started showing him that I would not bend all the way always his ways....and I stayed persistant. Wasn't easy...but my persistance taught him that he had no choice....
I tried going so far to threaten us with police and kicking us out...I told him go ahead, I'm not afraid. He kept asking, if I wouldn't want to prepare for it...I said "NO"....whenever and whatever happens, happens....and brushed it off. The first few times, yes it scared me a little. But over time you get a cold sholder for certain things and it didn't feel like such a threat to me.
He actually deep inside is much more afraid of me leaving....didn't admit it for the longest time.

On top of it...like I had mentioned in my story and other posts here...I see changes in him and hope. Now that we finally know what is really going on and after he finally clicked that whatever the issue is - I am open to talk about it, sometimes I am able to see his point somewhat, other times less, but often a compromise can be found. Compromises are needed in ANY relationship.
He finally is beginning to realize, that the real problem is not in his irritation, but much rather in his reaction over it. Yes, I can tolerate that he is upset about something and accept how HE feels without that I neccessarily have to agree! But his REACTION is the big problem and that is what causes the big blow up and what we are both tired of.
He used to blame the blow up on the irritant, on the person's irritating behavior etc.....that that was the reason for the blow up. He is now at a point where he changes his view and begins to see that it is actually his reaction that makes everything so miserable....
And with my strategy of walking away when he gets out of proportiion I am helping him to guide him, when he reaches my boundaries. He actually begins to understand now and then the first time I turn away. He calms down and begins to focus better....

It takes a long time to feel free of a mine field after such a long time, especially for my son...who doesn't see it as clearly as I do, because he's been hurt most. And it also takes time for me to relax, but I feel that I am getting less anxious when he's around....

I am standing up for my son and his needs, he always comes before my own needs. I spoke with him several times when I was close to moving out, yes I was there. But he doesn't really want to move, his friends are so very important to him and he wants to stay at the same school. He doesn't like when he blows up and other things, but he doesn't want to move either.

Quote from: "gary"So I came up with the concept that the consequence for crossing any boundary would be the same....The relationship would be over......But :cool2:

There would be a coupon book issued for each one with different amounts of coupons in each book.

For example for cheating she would open up her coupon book for that and find none....The relationship is over.

In the coupon book for yelling there could be 100.

So the incentive could be this: She has been yelling twice a week for the past 8 months . I could look in the book and say, "Honey....You know the consequence for running out of coupons is the relationship will be over and you have just 36 coupons left."..."You may want to start to get a handle on that." ;)

Well, we all cross the boundaries of our partner now and then....unfortunately even in the healthiest relationship this happens...we have to keep that in mind. I honestly don't believe in a realtionship where there are never fights and arguments, where nobody ever does wrong to the other etc...

In addition we are dealing here with a person with a disorder and to make changes....It's been said to change a behavior for a healthy normal  person without disorder at least 45 days to get the hang of the change.....
For a PD person it takes even longer because more processing is involved. First you have to get them to realize that something is wrong with them, then to accept it...and then starting to work on it....often they do not realize that the reason why they feel irritated is no irriation for the non-PD....So they have to realize that only they have that feeling. Then they have to learn that their reaction is overrated.
They cannot change until they realize this so far.....and this alone takes time...
You cannot change what you don't realize and are aware of.
Once they got this far....the changing process can begin.....

I think that there has been "conditioning" by abusers (PDs) that have told us "boundaries don't belong in marriage/relationship" (implying that OUR boundaries are creating the LACK of intimacy that we have; again, it is OUR fault when we are just trying to clarify and identify the real problem). This might "hoover us" back to NOT have boundaries with them and this is VERY dangerous.

My NPDh told me this and I looked at him and said "I will have my boundaries with whomever it seems fit for me to have them with and that includes you"...Boundaries command respect. When I "set up" the boundaries that I have with him NOW, I SAW that he did not respect them; thus NOT respect me. It helped me to see that it was "not me" who was crossing over the line but him.  

My favorite boundary (and used ONLY when necessary) is saying NO...and sometimes it is saying NO without using words (no contact). I don't engage in conversation because that is the "clay in the potters' hand" for him...then he has "something to work with" and I won't even give him that. I have literally said NOTHING to him but have said "no" with my actions and he has "very little to attack" because he cannot get me engaged to "talk about it".

QuoteSometimes 'boundaries' aren't enough. Fortresses have to be built.

Sorry, that's where I am. Sometimes, 'walk away' isn't an option.

Sometimes...we just have to build the fortress....and walk out the back...

Walk away isn't an option when someone is raging in your face...true. So far I have not mastered crystal ball reading of the moods either...I'm not bad...but I am certainly prone to errors.  :uuuuuuhhh:

I was pretty good at the  :ninja:  escape routine....but that's not exactly how I want to spend the rest of my life either.

I think at the end of the day....the 'walk away' aspect is taken care of by simply not being there in the first place.

Boundaries are beautiful things....it falls squarely on one's own shoulders when things go hay wire....like it or not.  :cascade:

i didn't learn to set boundaries while living with my h, but now that he will soon be my x, i am learning more about it. when he sends me text after text accusing me of stuff, i completely ignore them. it used to be i'd get dozens. the other night he started in in person after dropping my daughter off. i asked him to please leave my house. then i got two texts, which i did not respond to. there were no more texts, and that is a record. i like to think perhaps he is getting the message. if not, at least it feels good to me to set them..it also feels hard to do it but is getting easier.

(((jaw))) I don't know if my stbxNPDh is "getting it" either since I haven't replied or indicated that I have even read any of inane emails since May...especially the one where he "gave me an ultimatum" to return to him by 12/1...and I never replied...I believe that they will "cling onto whatever works" for them to get our attention...if we "get upset" about texts, emails or voicemails and let them know, they will use it...my NPDh does not call me because I have HUNG UP on him several times during the "difficult months" of his PD after we started to try to reconcile...he KNOWS that I will hang up again. He doesn't email as much because he is "not getting narcisstic supply" met this way; I am NOT responding as he NEEDS... In person, I walk away; I don't engage and he could be yelling and screaming and I look "undaunted/unaffected" by his behavior.

The MORE that they can control us with their behavior, the MORE they do it...

Good thing for me; my NPDh thinks that it "hurts me" to NOT hear from him   :tongue:
so I have had almost 10 days go in between his emails before he has to "shoot me another" one to try :hoover: me back..it never works.

Maybe he is learning too.

I discovered a few years ago that my wife of 20+ years was BPD, which explained a lot of what had been mysterious, confusing, and extremely frustrating behaviors. I have also learned that I have very weak boundaries, and just starting to learn how to establish them. Unfortunately, for my wife, a "boundary" to her is a sign of being closed, cold, unavailable, and unsympathetic, and triggers her sense of abandonment and anger even more....

Wonder if anyone else has had this problem. Another question: what about the relationship between weak boundaries and self esteem? Does one naturally correlate with the other, and if so, does this mean that if one has weak boundaries, that one should be looking at self esteem issues too?

Thanks,
Bob

QuoteDoes one naturally correlate with the other, and if so, does this mean that if one has weak boundaries, that one should be looking at self esteem issues too?

Yes, it's my opinion that it does. If we have a low self esteem then we would feel unworthy to establish boundaries.

Also don't be discouraged when she doesn't change her behavior when you establish a boundary. They are not meant to change them (although they may) but to protect us from the behavior.

Aren't boundaries a limit of what a person will accept?

For example, I have a problem with a person who gossips.   I don't like it.  I didn't whether to steer the subject elsewhere or walk away or what.   I've been practicing.   I do know that if the gossiping continues, I'm going to maintain a good distance.

I seem to be able to set & keep boundaries with everyone but my adult children. I feel totally enmeshed in them & have gone non-contact with one of my sons because I was sick of giving & getting nothing back.

I've just been reading some of the links in this thread & I have figured out I need to set some new boundaries with my daughter as weve just re-established contact after a huge blowup. Im feeling vulnerable already so i need to decide what Im willing to tolerate in order to have a relationship with her, & what Im not. Or I'll blow up again :blowup:

I agree survivor - without boundaries that we maintain we can easily lose control of ourselves.  Boundaries are really for us to be able to function in healthy and safe ways.  They are about us and not about anyone else.  So good idea and hope this helps in maintaining a relationship with your grown children. :yeahthat:

I have figured out I need to set some new boundaries with my daughter as weve just re-established contact after a huge blowup. Im feeling vulnerable already so i need to decide what Im willing to tolerate in order to have a relationship with her, & what Im not. Or I'll blow up again :applause:

This is a huge step forward for yourself Survivor, just being aware of these things is a big part of it, it shows that you are noticing that you are giving and it is not being reciprocated, your needs for consideration and respect in these relationships are not being met. It takes courage to set these boundaries with our children but it pays off in the end - it will give your daughter reason and time to reflect too even if her initial reactions are difficult.  Stick to your boundaries/consequences (((Survivor)))

Thanks for your encouragement Navaho & Klarity Belle,
                                                                         I've found an awesome website that is a recovery from codependence site. I'm just one big codependant mess really.
  I"d slipped so far back into my disease over the last 4 years that I'd forgotten I was a codependant.   I've been trying to stop rescuing my kids & set boundaries but the core problem was my codependency-its back & out of control ! :elephant:
  Ive been so desparate to get rid of that disturbed feeling that Ive been lashing out,spinning out & freaking out all over the place :whistling: It definitely got rid of people. :sad2:
I've just about figured out what Im going to say to her,hopefully she wont just hear :blahblahblah:
This is the website,
                                  http://www.joy2meu.com/Codependence1.html (http://www.joy2meu.com/Codependence1.html)

To get back to a general boundary discussion ...

I wonder if anyone's able to really explain the difference between boundaries and ultimatums.  I realize a boundary is mine - I decide what is or is not acceptable and I enforce that boundary with consequences if/when necessary.  How is that different from an ultimatum, i.e. "do what I say or I will xyz"?

Hummmmm.....not much difference it doesn't seem.

Unless an ultimatum is something you declare when you have been weak with your boundaries 8)

Boundaries are the limits of your person and well-being.   You (and everyone else) has the right to feel respected, valued and safe.  If you don't feel those things, then a boundary has been crossed.

For example: If a person calls you fat then you won't feel respected or valued.  They have crossed a boundary in that they've disrespected and insulted you.

There are various ways to address the crossing of boundaries.   You can walk away.  You can say "I don't like it when you call me fat, I feel bad."    You can say "Did you actually just call me fat?"

An ultimatum, per the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, is a final proposition, condition or demand; especially one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or direct action.

Examples:
If you call me fat again, I won't speak to you.   (This one seems bumbling, but oh well....)
If this person calls me fat again, I will stay away from them.  (Better course of action.)
If you continue to have a Communist government, we will continue the embargo against your country. (Cuba)
If you shout at me, I will have to leave the room.  We need a time-out.

Kind of a thin gray line there, isn't it?  "I don't like it when you abc; if you do it again I will xyz."  Boundary?  Ultimatum?  We're taught to voice our limits (boundaries) so it does somewhat follow that our consequences for crossing those boundaries are ... ultimatums.  I can see where people get confused - I think I just confused myself.

The ultimatum is the proposition that you will do XYZ if a person does ABC.

The entire propositions below are ultimatums:

— If you [cross my boundary], I will [take a certain action].
— If you shout, I will leave the room.
— If you invade my country, I will defend it and attack you.
— If you don't pay me by Friday, I will break your kneecaps.
— If you dump subsidized grain in my area of the world, I will take you to the WTO court.
— If you break the law, this society will try to prosecute and punish you.
— If you break the vow of fidelity, I will divorce you.

It can be tricky, trying to discern the difference.    But there is a difference:

from the site:  Life & Therapy:   http://elyntromey.com/therapyblog/?p=206   (http://elyntromey.com/therapyblog/?p=206)   This article uses chosen / romantic relationships as the model, but the definition holds true across all relationships:

  A good boundary is the result of knowing yourself and having standards for how you want to be treated in relationship.  An ultimatum is the result of not setting boundaries to begin with; you find yourself unhappy with how you are being treated and you are focus on changing your partner's behavior.  The crucial difference is that boundaries come from a solid place inside of you, whereas an ultimatum comes from a wish about how things could be.  It takes self-esteem to set a boundary, whereas most ultimatums come from a sense of desperation.


In many cases, the ultimatum is a poor substitute for a good boundary.  You may have been in a relationship in which you didn't set boundaries to begin with, and you may wish you did.  Perhaps you wanted to say something early on, but didn't because you were afraid of losing that person.  Now you've been together for a while, and you realize you want to be treated differently.  Instead of looking at the part you played in setting up the standards of your relationship, you decide that your partner needs to change their behavior, so you give them an ultimatum.  You are now focused on your partner's behavior rather than your own, and this takes you away from yourself.  The more focus you put on getting your partner to change, the less you are able to figure out what your own boundaries are.  You may threaten your partner with dire consequences if they don't change, but those consequences are somewhere in the future, dependent on something your partner may or may not do.

Instead of attempting to change your partner by making threats, look inside and see just what it is you really want in a relationship.  Rather than focusing on your partner's potential, look at what is right in front of you.  What have you been settling for right here and now, in the hopes that something will change?  How long have you been settling for it?  Don't expect your partner to change their behavior in order for you to decide what to do with the relationship.



Here's another on why Ultimatims rarely work:

  http://elyntromey.com/therapyblog/?p=100 (http://elyntromey.com/therapyblog/?p=100)

Good stuff.

QuoteA good boundary is the result of knowing yourself and having standards for how you want to be treated in relationship.  An ultimatum is the result of not setting boundaries to begin with; you find yourself unhappy with how you are being treated and you are focus on changing your partner's behavior.  The crucial difference is that boundaries come from a solid place inside of you, whereas an ultimatum comes from a wish about how things could be.  It takes self-esteem to set a boundary, whereas most ultimatums come from a sense of desperation.

Thanks, A!  That's what I needed to clarify it in my own mind - I know instinctively the difference between the two, but putting it into words wasn't happening for me.  Looks like I wasn't alone on that one.

Quote from: MoGlow on March 25, 2011, 06:12:44 PM
Kind of a thin gray line there, isn't it?  "I don't like it when you abc; if you do it again I will xyz."  Boundary?  Ultimatum?  We're taught to voice our limits (boundaries) so it does somewhat follow that our consequences for crossing those boundaries are ... ultimatums.  I can see where people get confused - I think I just confused myself.

Hi Mo!  It can be confusing!  But I see it as this way:

Boundaries are internal markers we set for ourselves when it comes to the external effects of others.  

Ultimatums are external markers we set for others when it comes to the internal effects it can have on ourselves.

Example:

Boundary:  Because he drinking, it is best that I leave. (my decision based on his behavior)

Ultimatum: If you continue to drink, I will leave. (my request for him to alter his behavior with a consequence if he decides not to)

But to me, they are both worthy tools in our ability to control how we, not them, cope and deal with something.  

Thanks for posting this one and for all the info, everybody!!!   :tongue2: I've been sitting here making notes and flow charts....  the part about an ultimatum coming from a place of low self-esteem and no boundaries having been set in the first place makes perfect sense.  But I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it all......I SERIOUSLY need to work on this so I want to get it right!!!!
One question:
If the relationship is a looooong standing one (Unchosen) with someone and is one in which no boundaries were set right at the beginning, am I understanding this correctly...if you follow the steps, (outlining your boundaries, telling them what YOU will do if they are breached) and the other person keeps breaching them, then is the only recourse to stay away from the person, so long as you keep the "door open" so to speak?  And isn't that kind of an ultimatum still????? 
ex/  I won't be spoken to disrespectfully.  I will not continue this conversation if you continue to speak to me disrespectfully.
And then if they continue speaking disrespectfully, then you leave, ***as long as you have let them know that you welcome a conversation another time, so long as they speak to you respectfully.  And then you just stay away until they can speak to you respectfully??? 
:oh: 



 

There is no requrement that you keep the door open to future contact.   You certainly may keep the door open if that is your wish, however -  If you feel you have reached your limit, and are of a mind to close the door on that relationship once and for all, it is certainly your perrogative.   The only requirement is that you understand you are exercising your bounaries (and their consequences) as a means of protecting yourself, and not as a means of punnishing the other person. 

Thanks Aames, that makes sense about using the boundaries to protect myself and not to punish the other person.  At this time I want to keep the door slightly ajar.......although that could change in the future.  What I'm having trouble with is whether the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum is just in the way it's worded, using "I" rather than "you" (in addition to the distinction you made)????  Maybe I'm just not getting it!!!!  :blink: 

What I'm having the most difficulty with is trying to maintain a relationship with my other family members, while at the same time setting up some boundaries with my Mom.  I'm feeling a lot of anxst right now because me talking less or sometimes not talking at all with my Mom (sometimes her giving me the silent treatment to try and punish me for the boundaries I'm setting) is creating friction with the other family members.  I've explained to my Dad that I still care about Mom and that I just told Mom that I can't keep discussing my medical conditions with her at great length and that I will talk to her happily about other topics- to give one example of a boundary I've put in place) 
I know that I can't be responsible for what they are feeling/thinking and I know that I am just protecting myself......maybe this is what is meant by not being attached to a certain outcome???? 
It's starting to look like the cost of protecting myself is the loss of a relationship with my brother, my Dad, my cousin, and some other close friends of the family.  Is this something that everybody goes through when they are establishing boundaries?  Am I just suffering from the "I want people to like me" blues???? 

QuoteAm I just suffering from the "I want people to like me" blues????

They may not like us for setting boundries but they may wind up respecting us but never admit it.

Quote from: gary on June 21, 2011, 03:59:05 PM

QuoteAm I just suffering from the "I want people to like me" blues????

They may not like us for setting boundries but they may wind up respecting us but never admit it.

I think, too, that for those of us raised by PD parents, it's hard to recognize the difference between people "liking" us and people treating us well.

I'm still learning this. When people like me, or show interest in me, I turn to butter. I'll even let them treat me badly. Because my mom "liked" me sometimes, and not others, and being treated well was dependent on whether she liked me. (My dad, too, in many ways.)

But now I'm seeing, slowly, that she can dislike me all she wants (or like me) but what's important is that she treats me and my children well. And slowly.. I'm starting to see that the same is true for non-parental relationships.

I really, really want people to like me, though. That has to come from the early childhood training - people must like me before they will treat me well. Or, he doesn't treat me well, if I could get him to like me, he'd treat me better. Or, he doesn't like me, it must mean my boundaries are "bad." All that... from mixing the need to be liked and accepted with the need to be treated well.

I'm sure there's more to the whole "I want people to like me" business. But in regard to setting boundaries, I think mashing together the needs for being liked and being well-treated is pretty common.

Might be the same for you, too?

Hi Jillian,

Quote from: Jillian on June 21, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
I think, too, that for those of us raised by PD parents, it's hard to recognize the difference between people "liking" us and people treating us well.

BIG TIME!!!  It's very true for me too. 

Quote from: Jillian on June 21, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
When people like me, or show interest in me, I turn to butter. I'll even let them treat me badly. Because my mom "liked" me sometimes, and not others, and being treated well was dependent on whether she liked me. (My dad, too, in many ways.)

I really, really want people to like me, though. That has to come from the early childhood training - people must like me before they will treat me well. Or, he doesn't treat me well, if I could get him to like me, he'd treat me better. Or, he doesn't like me, it must mean my boundaries are "bad."

. 

I totally know what you mean!  When someone treats me badly, I blame myself, wondering what signals I'm giving off that people pick up on that let them think I am a pushover ("bad boundaries"), or that I am just flawed because even my own family didn't like me, so how can other people?......trying desperately to make them like me so that they will be "nice" to me, 
Even though I don't have a lot of friends (another issue, but probably related tho') I haven't been so selective and have also allowed my "friends" to treat me quite badly, to say things to me that were unkind, and accepting that they will just call me when they need something or when they have nothing better to do.  One of them even tells me when I call that she doesn't want to waste her cell minutes and tells me to call her on the weekend, even though when we have been out, she's constantly talking to other people on the phone when it was just the 2 of us there!   :-\ 
I've been quite isolated lately too because of my health and can't socialize much or do activities that are good ways to meet people and so maybe I am coming across as needy too????  :wacko: :blush: 

Quote from: Jillian on June 21, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
But now I'm seeing, slowly, that she can dislike me all she wants (or like me) but what's important is that she treats me and my children well. And slowly.. I'm starting to see that the same is true for non-parental relationships.

You are so right, it's that expectation of being treated well that we need to focus on.  I am realizing that in the past my "filters" weren't functioning....that people could become my friend just because they seemed to like me (Yay!!!!!) or wanted to spend time with me (yay!!!!  I mustn't be as bad as my parents said!!!)
Can you relate to that too?

It's tough sometimes to sort it all out, but I think just the fact that we are coming to some of these realizations about ourselves and where they likely stem from, we are well on our way!!!   :tongue2:
I'm really hoping that I get to the point where I don't care if someone likes me, just as long as they treat me well AND to the point where I am confident that people WILL like me, because I am a likeable person. 

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts Jillian.  Here's to true friends and to good self-esteem protected by solid boundaries!!!
Take care!  :bighug:
H. 

Quote from: Hopeful at last on June 22, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
I've been quite isolated lately too because of my health and can't socialize much or do activities that are good ways to meet people and so maybe I am coming across as needy too????  wacko blush 

Thanks for your feedback, Hopeful. I can relate to your struggles. I am guilty of being "needy" too. I used to cringe at that word when people would tell me that I was. But I didn't really understand what it meant. Now I know that it means that I seem needy to others when I'm asking them to essentially play the role of my parent and therapist. I had a rough time of a few friendships, and am struggling with my marriage, and of course trying to make sense of my attachment to my childhood feelings, so because of that, I have been taking a break from pursuing friendships. Kind of like someone might take a break from dating after a breakup. So I've been purposefully giving myself space. And when I feel the urge to call someone or just see anyone, or to beg someone to love me, I remember - oh ya, I'm on a break. I'm creating my own boundaries, I think, for my own childhood self. Funny thing... I've made friends and didn't even know it, even without "needing" them. I'm just being me, being authentic, and asking nothing. People actually like me and treat me better when my boundaries are securely in place. I get out quite a bit because of the kids, and I am in toastmasters. But I don't do these things with the intent of making friends (anymore). And wow, it's changed how I talk to people. So, boundaries for others and also setting boundaries for my own behavior (right now) while I heal, has really helped in this regard.

Quote from: Hopeful at last on June 22, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
I totally know what you mean!  When someone treats me badly, I blame myself, wondering what signals I'm giving off that people pick up on that let them think I am a pushover ("bad boundaries"), or that I am just flawed because even my own family didn't like me, so how can other people?......trying desperately to make them like me so that they will be "nice" to me, 

I totally get the self-blame. I mean, it's obviously not their fault, cuz we're the needy ones, right? Arg. And the desperate need to make someone like me. I am learning - can't make people like me. I also tend to choose people to try to make like me who are like my parents - go figure. I think taking responsibility, now that's different. It's not our fault (blame) that they don't like us, but it's our responsibility to set boundaries for behavior we'll accept towards us from others.

Quote from: Hopeful at last on June 22, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
You are so right, it's that expectation of being treated well that we need to focus on.  I am realizing that in the past my "filters" weren't functioning....that people could become my friend just because they seemed to like me (Yay!!!!!) or wanted to spend time with me (yay!!!!  I mustn't be as bad as my parents said!!!)
Can you relate to that too?

I can definitely relate. In fact, embarrassed to admit, my filters were worse. If someone showed any kind of positive regard towards me (and I liked them back), I took that as a sign that we could be CLOSE, and I desired to be close, without really knowing the person. I don't really know my parents that well - it's hard to really know a person with PD or one who is emotionally or physically unavailable. So if someone was nice to me, I got that, ding ding ding, they could love me! feeling. I'm learning to instead, if someone is nice, to need nothing from them emotionally until much time and experience has passed. I haven't reached the comfort with intimacy stage yet, tho. I'm scared. I am so used to the old way of "getting" people to like/love me, I'm not sure what it's even like to have a relationship (friend or closer than friend) without that feeling. Still learning. Boundaries are definitely part of that. And they are for me, not the other person, to remind me not to be so willing to let people hurt me for the sake of making sure they still like me. It's so hard!

Quote from: Hopeful at last on June 22, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
It's tough sometimes to sort it all out, but I think just the fact that we are coming to some of these realizations about ourselves and where they likely stem from, we are well on our way!!!   

Absolutely! I love this perspective. :)

Thanks, Hopeful. Your insight helps so much.

Quote from: Jillian on June 22, 2011, 08:40:44 PM
Now I know that it means that I seem needy to others when I'm asking them to essentially play the role of my parent and therapist. I had a rough time of a few friendships, and am struggling with my marriage, and of course trying to make sense of my attachment to my childhood feelings, so because of that, I have been taking a break from pursuing friendships. Kind of like someone might take a break from dating after a breakup. So I've been purposefully giving myself space. And when I feel the urge to call someone or just see anyone, or to beg someone to love me, I remember - oh ya, I'm on a break. I'm creating my own boundaries, I think, for my own childhood self.

So, boundaries for others and also setting boundaries for my own behavior (right now) while I heal, has really helped in this regard.

Wow, Jillian, you just made a lightbulb go off for me! That makes soooo much sense!!!!  Here I was thinking how my friends just weren't being friends to me......I listened and tried to help every time they had a problem, but then felt so hurt when they didn't do the same for me, not realizing that I was actually trying to put them in the role of parent or therapist!!!!!   :blush: 
You are so wise to take a break.  It's true what you wrote about people doing so after a love relationship but not from friendships.  I'm going to try and take this time while I'm recovering physically to do that too.  Thank you!!!!

Quote from: Jillian on June 22, 2011, 08:40:44 PM
And the desperate need to make someone like me. I am learning - can't make people like me. I also tend to choose people to try to make like me who are like my parents - go figure. I think taking responsibility, now that's different. It's not our fault (blame) that they don't like us, but it's our responsibility to set boundaries for behavior we'll accept towards us from others.

That is very true!  As I have been taking stock of the relationships that I have ( or don't have any more) I'm realizing more and more how much the responsibility lies with me, especially for the friendships that are no more.  It's not only for not putting boundaries in place, but also for choosing to focus my efforts on people that share many of the traits of my parents and repeating the same old patterns of neediness, rejection, and emotional pain.

Quote from: Jillian on June 22, 2011, 08:40:44 PM
I can definitely relate. In fact, embarrassed to admit, my filters were worse. If someone showed any kind of positive regard towards me (and I liked them back), I took that as a sign that we could be CLOSE, and I desired to be close, without really knowing the person. I don't really know my parents that well - it's hard to really know a person with PD or one who is emotionally or physically unavailable.

No need to be embarrassed Jillian!!!  It's totally understandable why we, as children and then later as adults, have developed these faulty coping skills.  Every human being desires to love and to be loved and to have others that are close to them and understand them, liking them just as they are.  Unfortunately, we didn't have that as kids and its BANG ON when you said it's hard to really know a person who has a PD and is unavailable!!!  So, of course, we seek that out in others.  You are not the only one to seek that closeness or intimacy inappropriately.  I realize that I am guilty of seeking that or expecting it from others after just a short amount of time too, and I even sometimes have to do a lot of self-talk in public to keep myself from sharing too much or saying things to people I don't even know!   :blush: :o  And then I start thinking, wow, am I a total nutter????  No boundaries perhaps????!!!    hahaha 

Quote from: Jillian on June 22, 2011, 08:40:44 PM
I'm learning to instead, if someone is nice, to need nothing from them emotionally until much time and experience has passed. I haven't reached the comfort with intimacy stage yet, tho. I'm scared. I am so used to the old way of "getting" people to like/love me, I'm not sure what it's even like to have a relationship (friend or closer than friend) without that feeling. Still learning. Boundaries are definitely part of that. And they are for me, not the other person, to remind me not to be so willing to let people hurt me for the sake of making sure they still like me. It's so hard!

It is tough, I agree!  I feel kind of shell-shocked lately and am afraid to open myself up to more hurt and rejection. I also feel afraid sometimes in moments of self-doubt that I am just not meant to have friends, like everybody else has the "manual" and I didn't get a copy and don't know how a friendship operates.  From what I have read on the site, it seems like a lot of us who grew up in dysfunctional families often feel like an outsider.  Am definitely going to work on boundaries and like you are now doing, letting a friendship develop more "organically", for lack of a better word.  Also have to work on not backsliding when someone reacts negatively to my attempts to put a boundary in place for the first time in that relationship, and stand firm.  Like what Gary said, they may not like it, but might wind up respecting us more in the end and not admit it.  After all, they are used to us behaving a certain way and it probably seems strange for them when we are suddenly showing more self-respect and some backbone!   :aaauuugh:  We are all still learning.   ;)  Be proud of yourself though for how far you've come, being a good Mom, being part of Toastmasters and for all that you have accomplished already.......and for your wisdom!  Thanks again and take good care!   :D

Sorry I wrote such a long reply.....    :blush: 

Am thinking I need to establish a boundary for myself.  Have done some reflection and am realizing that I talk/write a lot and also talk loudly sometimes.   :-[ 
Pretty sure that it stems from being shut down (shut up really) and not listened to as a kid and as an adult by my folks, but I need to work on it.....
:-\    :-[

Quote from: Hopeful at last on June 29, 2011, 06:34:13 PM
Sorry I wrote such a long reply.....    :blush: 

Am thinking I need to establish a boundary for myself.  Have done some reflection and am realizing that I talk/write a lot and also talk loudly sometimes.   :-[ 
Pretty sure that it stems from being shut down (shut up really) and not listened to as a kid and as an adult by my folks, but I need to work on it.....
:-\    :-[

Hopeful, I think this, of all places, is where we are safe to write as much as we need.

What I'm learning is to recognize the places where it's OK to let it all out, and wear my vulnerabilities on my sleeve, and where to rein it in. Here, in therapy, and sometimes with my husband, I can free associate or be completely open with just how much is going on up in my psyche. Learning selective and situational boundaries is tough when raised by someone who has no boundaries anywhere. And learning to recognize when we've really gone too far (and aren't just imagining the other person is upset with us) is tough. I still get embarrassed about how much I reveal in therapy sometimes, and wish I didn't dominate the conversation so much - and I'm supposed to be the one talking and revealing in therapy! Just so much guilt associated with not being good enough and not being worthy of being listened to... like you said.

What you wrote about feeling like other people have the manual on how to get along and you didn't get it, is a familiar feeling for me, too. It's a good analogy, I think - we didn't get training on how to get along in a healthy way, and other people did. Not everyone, but certainly they are out there. I think it's important to forgive ourselves for not knowing something when we weren't given the tools to know them. Sometimes I feel like I'm re-living my adolescence and teen years, learning the things now that I was supposed to learn then. So when I make mistakes like opening up too soon to someone, or explaining myself so the other person won't be mad, or getting caught up in the "omg someone's listening to me I better tell them everything I'm thinking" blabbermouth, I remember - that's the young me reaching out, trying to learn. And since I'm on a break from trying to make friends right now, it's OK that the other person might be a bit annoyed with me. I'm not concerned with it (well, as bad as I used to be, anyway). If they are healthy people, they will forgive me.

It's all a big pretzel. Learning our own boundaries for ourselves, it's tough. Kuddos to you for all the work you've been putting into healing, through the stops and starts, to figure out your boundaries.

Oh Jillian, YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Thank you for reassuring me that it's okay to vent or share on the site! I was feeling really ashamed and thinking that others on the site were probably thinking badly of me....  I find myself CONSTANTLY trying to gauge other people's thoughts and feelings and to do the "right" thing, make people happy, and not offend anyone (but seem to do so anyway!). 

Quote from: Jillian on June 29, 2011, 11:33:10 PM
Learning selective and situational boundaries is tough when raised by someone who has no boundaries anywhere. And learning to recognize when we've really gone too far (and aren't just imagining the other person is upset with us) is tough.

It's true how you said we're learning things many other people learn at a much younger age.....I'm 40 and I so often feel like a child and see other people and wonder how they know all of these things and how all of these social skills and confidence seem to be almost second-nature to them.
I have faced a couple of rejections lately so I have been feeling really down too.  One of my "friends" has been quite negative lately and she has made various critical comments about me and how I'm not working, even though I am physically not able to right now.  And, the cousin who I have been close to for years is now the subject of a major campaign by my Mom and appears to be going over to "The Dark Side", believing the things my Mom says.  Although she is still keeping in touch with me, it feels different and not as close as before. 
My Mom has been inviting my cousin out on tons of outings, she began volunteering every week at the school where my cousin works, she's been giving her things, and, the latest, today my cousin went to stay for a couple of nights at the cabin where my Mom is staying for several weeks.  All of this while she has not called or written to me, even though she tells everyone about how "worried" she is for my health, has been bad-mouthing me to anyone who will listen, acting all "victimy", and telling everyone how I am ignoring her and not staying in contact with her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
I think I'm going to have to follow your example and truly take a break from the friendship thing until I have done a lot more healing because I feel like I have no self-respect, self-esteem, and have a super thin skin!  I said to my husband the other day how sometimes I feel like I have a sign attached to me that says "Kick me".  I read somewhere (maybe Out of the FOG??) that when we grew up as the scapegoat, we give off signals to other people that tell them we don't respect ourselves and that we signal to them that it's okay to treat us badly.  I am so tired of being hurt and walking around wishing that I had a loving family and a group of friends like the ones I see in movies and tv.  I know that some people have them, so it does exist in reality! I'm hoping that with therapy I will learn whether I am picking the wrong people (some of them seem like they have a PD too, or am I reading too much into it????), whether it's these signals I seem to be giving off, or perhaps it's my lack of boundaries......or maybe it's all of them!!!   :aaauuugh:


Thank you so much for your kindness and for taking time to "listen" and write back Jillian.   ;D  I hope you feel freer in your therapy to just let it all out! 
Kudos right back to you, for being so strong, for working so hard, and for being so brave! 

Quote from: Hopeful at last on July 05, 2011, 03:00:08 PM
... sometimes I feel like I have a sign attached to me that says "Kick me".  I read somewhere (maybe Out of the FOG??) that when we grew up as the scapegoat, we give off signals to other people that tell them we don't respect ourselves and that we signal to them that it's okay to treat us badly.

Oh! I can relate to this, and Jillian:  everything you said was so spot on! 

Hopeful, I agree there's something we do that gives the PDs "permission" to act badly, and I'm on a quest to figure out what it is.  It may be exactly as you say - we don't respect ourselves, and they see that.  I've also thought that my tolerance for "crazy" is way too high (from growing up around crazy people).  Someone that "normal" people would avoid immediately I tolerate to some extent (I've been accused of being "too nice"), until it's too late.  At that point, I have to defend having any boundaries at all.  Something I wouldn't have had to do if I had kept them strong in the first place. 

I think you are doing wonderful to have even recognized you may have some responsibility in the entire dynamic - I spent years taking the victim stance in the dynamic (which is what my mother used to do).  Now, like you, I recognize that I'm partly responsible, and I actively seek to change whatever it is.  We will prevail!

I have not read this entire thread, so I hope I am not repeating something that has already been said...

Hi there GoingNC!

I have yet to figure "it" out too......one thing I am thinking that could be a signal is our posture. I noticed that I don't stand up tall and straight and instead, I kind of hunch in as if to protect myself......the light bulb moment came when I realized that I do it mostly around my FOO!  Also had a memory surface recently about how my Mom used to make fun of the way I walked and told me that I should take smaller steps, even though I'm about a foot taller than her. 
It could be an interesting experiment to have someone film those of us Nons in different situations with and without the PDs. 

Quote from: GoingNC on July 06, 2011, 05:41:55 PM
I've also thought that my tolerance for "crazy" is way too high (from growing up around crazy people).  Someone that "normal" people would avoid immediately I tolerate to some extent (I've been accused of being "too nice"), until it's too late.  At that point, I have to defend having any boundaries at all.  Something I wouldn't have had to do if I had kept them strong in the first place. 

Very good point Going!  I think that tolerance is a good thing  (something the world needs more of!!!) but you're right, our filters or boundaries are off to begin with and so we tolerate much more than we should for our own well-being.  I know that when I'm faced with any kind of conflict, or even just having to be a bit assertive, my insides churn and I feel super panicky and unsure.  And when I feel threatened or mistreated it's hard because I tend to panic and will sometimes repeat the behaviours I learned growing up and either retreat or lash out.    :-[

Quote from: GoingNC on July 06, 2011, 05:41:55 PM
I spent years taking the victim stance in the dynamic (which is what my mother used to do).  Now, like you, I recognize that I'm partly responsible, and I actively seek to change whatever it is.  We will prevail!

I bet a lot of us caught that "flea" of taking the victim stance, Going!  I still find myself slipping back sometimes but I have recognized that it usually happens when my Mom is on a rampage and trying to paint me as a villain to everybody.
It takes a lot of strength to stop playing the victim role and you have done that Going, because you recognize that you have the power to change and are starting to put some boundaries in place to make sure you are treated properly.  A big pat on your back for getting out of it and working on changing things for the better.   :applause:
You are absolutely right, we will prevail and it just gets better from here!!!  ((GoingNC)) 

Hey, B.D., did you see gdsgirl analysis in the spiritual forum?  It's amazing!!  She analyzed each thing her ex did in alignment with PD traits or behaviors.  You gotta read it!!  I will put a piece here so you can find it!  Imagine doing this exercise to see where you are at.

Boundaries are the key!!!  They certainly work for me!  I feel it truly was kind to me and to my guy to put them in place.  I get more sleep now, have less circular conversations because I walk away and do not engage (but I say I love you before I walk, let's talk later when it's calm), I am respected more for my wants and needs...  It's amazing!  Plus,I don't enable him to keep repetitiousness behaviors going.  Identifying each behavior can help in establishing boundaries.  Labeling them and working with a scrip to say to deal when that behavior comes up. For example, when circular conversations come up, I  state I will hear this once, comment and then I walk with saying the above.  It's respectful to me!

QuoteRe: How my faith has changed through EXPDh (OCPD/NPD) spiritual abuse
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2011, 05:26:40 PM »
Quote
In working through the "spiritual abuse/Spiritual Narcissistic" behavior of a OCPD; I have taken the MOST prevalent PD behaviors that I experienced DAILY and still whenever in contact with him for any reason.

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Alienation - Alienation means interfering or cutting a person off from relationships with others. This can be done by manipulating the attitudes and behaviors of the victim or of the people with whom they come in contact. The victim's relationships with others may be sabotaged through verbal pressure, threats, diversions, distortion campaigns and systems of rewards and punishments.
Now, let's take this "christian man" that we are talking about and SEE how these behaviors FIT into a "christian lifestyle"...I have PROOF that my EXPD not only sabotaged the relationship between his daughter and myself but also my manager at work who's son dated my EXstepdaughter for a short while; thus trying to get me fired from my work of nearly 24 years.

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"Always" & "Never" Statements - "Always" & "Never" Statements are declarations containing the words "always" or "never". They are commonly used but rarely true.
Dec. 2010; in his kitchen, after son and I had been living separate for over a year and I was JUST realizing that "it was over" and I was ready to call an attorney; he said "I NEVER verbally abused you". THIS WAS VERY UNTRUE; others such as my mom, dad, sister, friends and neighbors SAW or HEARD with their own ears his behavior toward me. NOT to forget to mention the nurses, security guards, hospital staff when he visited me on Thanksgiving and told me  "You can't blame ME for you being in here". I was in the hospital for chest pains due to stress. I WAS in there BECAUSE OF HIM.

Quote
Anger - People who suffer from personality disorders often feel a sense of unresolved anger and a heightened or exaggerated perception that they have been wronged, invalidated, neglected or abused.
More like RAGE; not only at me; sometimes he exhibited road rage as well. He would YELL and say that he was yelling because I was not listening to him. He could "whip himself" into a frenzy by me sitting there and listening; NO KIDDING!!!! He did not need me to have an argument; he had one with himself.

OK, I wish I had found this particular discussion earlier. Anyway, here is a reposting of something I wrote in another discussion.

Quote
... I am not at all sure what my spouse's goals and objectives are with her personal counselor. More recently she has been exploring 'boundaries' and has even invited me to comment on her thoughts, and yesterday we even discussed this with our couples counselor. For the most part I agree with what she thinks about boundaries, but her final conclusion is "A boundary is therefor something you use for yourself to adjust your own behaviour - rather than something you impose on another to adjust their behaviour." This leaves me unsettled because if you agree with this conclusion, then by simple logic it implies, 'whatever boundaries I articulate, I cannot expect her to change her behavior.' Am I alone in thinking her conclusion is off the mark, and potentially an easy way for her to avoid responsibility or accountability? Here is my latest response to her:

If you were a parent, it would be up to you to adjust your child's behavior. If you were a law enforcement officer it would be your responsibility to change someone else's criminal behavior. The point I keep coming back to is that, 'we train people to treat us the way they do.' We all have a role in changing other people's behavior when that behavior is not appropriate and we have the ability and resources to do so.

Getting back to boundaries, I think Dr. X made an interesting point about representative anger vs. reactive anger. We can use things like representative anger, representative fear, representative anxiety, etc. to notify us that we first need to think about if a boundary is being crossed, and what that boundary may be. When we are clear with ourselves on what the boundary is we can decided how to deal with it

• We can decide to remove ourselves from the situations or people that challenge that boundary.
• We can politely and clearly articulate that boundary to others and hope that once they are aware of it they will respect it and change their own behavior of their own accord. They will respect the no trespassing sign if they see it.
• After others are aware of the boundary, but they are unable or unwilling to stop challenging it then we need to make a decision - is this boundary worth defending? If my boundary is 'I don't like being ignored' then I might consider changing my own behavior to find productive and responsible ways to recognized. If my boundary is 'I don't like men making comments about my tits and ass' then you might feel it is not your responsibility to change your behavior because there are workplace standards that clearly support that boundary for all women, and someone else's behavior needs modification.

In my humble opinion, boundaries are not black and white issues, and they should be representative and not reactive.

I am requesting feedback on what I wrote.

It seems I may have confused 'boundaries' with 'rules', based on the first postings I read in this discussion. Does that seem to be the case?

It seems likely now that my spouse's conclusion was not necessarily hers alone, but likely developed in conjunction with her counselor as part of a general discussion on boundaries. Consequently it would probably be a good idea for me to follow up with her by saying "OK, I did some follow up reading on boundaries, and now I understand the conclusion you came to, and that was part of your personal vision statement and not really a discussion point." In the spirit of validating what she says, and not invalidating it, my goal is to reassure her we can share some common reality. Does this seem like an appropriate response on my part?

I guess in my own paranoid way :) I was feeling like I was being set up for something down the road. In the past I have often felt manipulated or drawn into some twisted logic, and in this case I think I overreacted because I did not understand her conclusion and assumed the worst. Does that make sense?

Hi Everybody,   :D

Just found this to be very helpful and wanted to share it!  I have, for a while, been quite confused about what exactly boundaries are and how exactly to use them......pretty typical for those of us raised in a dysfunctional family with PD parents who had no models of what healthy boundaries look like!!!!   :stars:

Hope it helps some of you like it helped me.  :tongue2:  Hopeful at last! 

http://www.joy2meu.com/Personal_Boundaries.htm

Hey aquarius, I can totally understand the confusion from overlapping needs/wants and desires.  I was just having a conversation with my youngest sister about maintaining morals and the problem with the resulting "judgment" that that implies (ie moral judgment).  The conversation was really about professional behavior, and not immoral behavior, btw.  But it all kind of overlaps, and it's difficult to sort out!

I think what your counselor was saying is that our boundaries are not designed to change other people, but rather to protect us and to let others know where we stand.  A line in the sand, without the resulting "challenge".  Keeping a boundary won't necessarily "change" the other person, but rather notify them to stop or move on.  Nothing will change other people, but we can protect ourselves. 

I had one successful day when I set a boundary with a co-worker.  It worked great!  At that moment.  But she hasn't changed, and the need to maintain boundaries when I'm around her hasn't changed, either.  It's ongoing, with her.

I yearn for someone to be close to that isn't so draining on my emotional resources.

I've been trying to figure out what to do with this sort of friendship I have. 

It's someone who expressed interest in me when she knew I wasn't available, and didn't listen at first when I reiterated that I wasn't available.  Finally, I was listening to her talk about a fantasy she was having about the two of us being intimate, I told her, "What you are talking about is only happening in your head.  It's not reality."  It's like her head kind of snapped back a little bit, and she looked a little stunned, and she never talked about us getting together again.  Instead she talked about her resentment toward me for not being what she wanted me to be.  That didn't last too long and it was only overtly expressed a few times.

Then we were in this transitional time that was confusing.  I was in this position where I thought I really needed her support for me and for my family because I had just moved to this new town (not far from my old one, really), but I also had a lot of my own unexpressed resentment. 

Over the next few months, things began to feel a little more even, but very recently I started to get the feeling that he health is in decline, and I said something about it to her, and she shared some things about her own ideas for her future (she doesn't think she has much of a future) and relying on her teenage kids in a way that felt really kind of bad to me.  There was and is no threat or any direct consequence for me or my son, but it triggered my own unexpressed resentment. 

I'm really feeling that I should've recognized all along that I was dealing with significant boundary issues, and I'm working out how to create what I need now, and I've found the past two nights that my anxiety is REALLY high.  Some part of me really seems to feel that I am jeopardizing something or doing something wrong by creating more limits in this situation.  The feeling is just as if I were actually a little kid cutting myself off from my mother.  I'm dealing with these huge feelings of scarcity.

What I'm getting from this site: http://www.joy2meu.com/Personal_Boundaries.htm, which is the one some people have referred to in this forum, and I really like it, is that the key about setting personal boundaries is you have to accept the outcome, whatever that I may be.

And what I'm seeing from this person that I'm dealing with is that she was pretty much expecting me to set boundaries all along, kind of like people had cut her off a million times before, and she was totally used to it.  And now that it's playing out like that, it makes total sense, but, really, I'm the one that's having the problem with the change. 

Thank you for all the great input here, really awesome, very helpful.
I was told by my counselor this... ask yourself this...

"Who has the problem here?"

This simple question has helped me tremendously..

I had to hesitate to answer this post. I grew up hearing about how my boundaries don't matter or that you can't say boundaries in Spanish, so why bother having them around my mother? I'm evading an old family friend who is coming to stay with us. This is out of a fearfulness of being anywhere near her because she's busy trying to get me to fall back into old patterns of passively taking my mother's garbage. She will try the nice route for sure. Maybe bring me a present to try to emphasize how much I need to just take what's given to me instead of doing the American thing and standing up for myself.

Her daughter is a nurse and has a house in their state. They moved out of state years ago, which was somewhat traumatic for me. They would be the people whose swimming pool we'd use in the summer. Her kids were like brothers and sisters to me growing up. I'm aware that her own family circumstances weren't ideal if you're a 9 year old cooking on a hot stove for your parents. I've met her parents.

In fact, I'm really nervous about seeing her. Just one of those bad feelings and if you're sensitive like me, you trust your intuition. I'm hanging out further north where there will be cooler weather. I can't help but remember when I wore my medicine bag with semi-precious stones inside, how she'd want to touch it. I'd step back to set the boundary that my religious perspective needed to be respected. She had some trouble with that one. I really wanted to be able to trust her, but something in me says don't. I don't trust people who follow the party-line that pressures my mother to stay married to my, narcissistic, PD dad. I refuse to trust some family friends that keep mom drinking instead of making her drink less or tell her, hey you say stupid stuff when you're drunk. There was that one family friend who told my dad to stop trying to be affectionate to her in a way that she felt was inappropriate. She is married to her husband, thank you, and to back off. She was polite. But it was in my doorway. The neighborhood might have seen that.

The way I keep my boundaries together at all is not to open my mouth. Just in case. Sometimes I can get really entertaining with a few coca colas in my body. I live the caffeine-free life these days. I'm tired a lot but its more worth it to me than forcing myself to be extroverted in a way I can't stand, in which I might say something rude. So I'm quiet. I keep to myself. There's nothing wrong with wanting that.

Haven't seen the answer to this part, though....what do you do with the PD who will not respect any boundaries? My husband and I are constantly told that our problem with his sister is that we don't set healthy boundaries. We try. But we end up like the East Germans trying to defend our version of the Berlin Wall. She is dedicated to tunneling under them, climbing over them, sneaking through our gate on the undercarriage of someone's car....you get the picture, I assume.


I just explained to someone that she is not simply a slightly difficult person. She has a real problem. The only boundary that has saved us any trouble at all is the geographical one of living as far away from her as is currently feasible. If we say we are not having a conversation about something, we get bombarded with voicemail or email about the topic. When we don't respond to that, she starts using other people to get to us---this weekend she ranted to a co-worker of my husband's about something when he was in her business and he turned up at work on Monday asking my husband about it. (Of course, in his perception she was sweetness and wounded light and why would we ever veto a b-day party for their dad....).

So...thoughts??? How do you make boundaries when someone is dedicated to destroying them?

Simply speaking, your boundaries are YOURS.  She doesn't have to respect them.  Boundaries are what separate us from other people - we can't realistically expect a disordered person to behave the way we want them to; some are going to continue simply because they can.

You decide what is/is not acceptable in your life (your boundaries) and you decide how to protect them.  They aren't rules for her to live by or demands on her behavior, they aren't an Emily Post of what is/is not civil or courteous behavior.  What she does/says with other people and how they handle that information is not your problem - they have to establish and protect their own boundaries, just as we all do.

There are a number of examples around the board.  One thing that sticks in my mind is the "unsolicited information."  Don't defend or explain why you don't care to hear it; just say thank you.  Maybe she means well, maybe she doesn't - you don't have to do anything with it or explain anything further.  Really, you don't.  She steamrolls people because she can, it's who she is.  It would/does drive me buggy too, but I've found the less I respond other than "thank you, I got it" the harder it is to force the issue.  She may keep on anyway ... okay.  Her stuff, not yours.

Really, thank her for her concern and leave it at that.  Don't even go into "we're not discussing that ..." Change the subject or just end the conversation entirely.  By continuing to respond, she's getting whatever feed she wants/needs.  You have to learn to make your personal decisions NOT about her or her reactions - it's not and it never was.  Doesn't matter that she doesn't see it that way. 

It's not easy but I've found that the less my mother knows about tmy life, decisions, etc. the better off I am - and the less she can interfere with useless foolish information.

MoGlow--Thank you for the reply. I've been a member for a few hours and I'm already learning so much and feeling supported by people who get it for the first time--just by reading their stories.

In the terms you define, we have boundaries. My husband has been especially strong with this. She actually thought I was the first woman he ever dated--and he was nearly 29 years old when we started dating. But one of his automatic boundaries with her had always been that he did not tell her about his dating life or his relationships. He has told me before that this was because she would have attempted to interfere. Except I knew her before him, so she knew we were dating. And she did attempt to interfere and is still doing it.

I think a lot of the people telling me we don't have boundaries with her are defining them as us finding some way to control her behavior. Which we will never be able to do. But we do have boundaries as you define them. We do not discuss certain things with her. We do not engage with her. She frequently demands that my husband take her side in some sort of formal confrontation against me in which my bad behavior (which is mostly made up) will be corrected by her. There is a strong boundary in place in that we tell her a conversation/confrontation is not going to take place in which she attacks me or my husband. My husband says no to her demands if they interfere with our life, plans or relationship (not that I don't say no--but she usually communicates with him and not with me--then periodically throws a tantrum that I don't communicate with her). And that means he says no to most things she asks.

What we don't and can't do is control her responses when we say no. And that's what friends are really telling me I have to do. And to make it harder, they tell me that if I don't, how she behaves toward me is my fault.

QuoteWhat we don't and can't do is control her responses when we say no. And that's what friends are really telling me I have to do. And to make it harder, they tell me that if I don't, how she behaves toward me is my fault.

Remember, those are people who are used to dealing with "normal" behavior.  They're saying those things based on their personal experience, just as we are all over this board.  My personal tolerance level for certain behaviors is pretty low due to what I've been through with mother.  I may have felt I didnt' have a choice where she's concerned, but a lot of what's "normal" for her I have not and will not accept from new people in my life.

There are lots of people who live in safe little bubbles, and bless them for it.  The reality is you can't ever control another person - not their behavior, words, responses, thoughts, nada.  What your friends are used to is normal people backing off when you tell them ENOUGH!  Not everyone will do that - your sis in law and my mother, for example. 

I've had to all but shut down any contact with mother to find peace.  She knows damned little about my day to day life because I don't tell her.  If she hears about it elsewhere and asks "Oh yeah, that happened." and I change the subject.  I don't give her anything to build drama on - she still does it but it's all invented and she's welcome to her fantasy world.

And honestly, your friends may be setting your expectations where they shouldn't reasonably be.  Your sister in law is not a reasonable person, she's proven that consistently over time - why on earth would we expect her to respond as such?  I've had WAY too many conversations regarding my mother with people who "oh but she's your mother, you don't mean that, you'll miss her when she's gone, you only have one mother, etc etc" ad nauseum.  They had/have different experiences and I learned who is/is not as supportive as I need where my mother is concerned.  It's not that some don't mean well; they just don't get it and are basing their responses on what they know.

Boundaries bring order to our lives. As we learn to strengthen our boundaries, we gain a clearer sense of ourselves and our relationship to others. Boundaries empower us to determine how we'll be treated by others. With good boundaries, we can have the wonderful assurance that comes from knowing we can and will protect ourselves from the ignorance, meanness, or thoughtlessness of others.

I've been reading this quote over and over...it makes so much sense. 

Thank you to the poster...  :)

Wow, a lot of information about boundaries and circular discussions. I think I get it but have to let it sink in.

A quote from Aquarius: I guess in my own paranoid way I was feeling like I was being set up for something down the road. In the past I have often felt manipulated or drawn into some twisted logic, and in this case I think I overreacted because I did not understand her conclusion and assumed the worst. Does that make sense? [end quote]

I think I feel like this. My boundaries are vague indeed but one boundary I've always been pretty clear on is: don't lie to me! My current BF (not PD, I think?) has lied to me though on three occasions (that I'm aware of). Recently another fight that ended in circular discussion. Again I won't accept you lie to me! But I've taken him back again. Maybe two times too many? It hurts that he decided t lie again after he promised. That means he doesn't respect my feelings. In any case, I've TRULY explained myself enough and although it will hurt me to have to let him go, I will if he decides to lie again. I'm trying real hard to let it go and move on.

But, after our last fight we talk some more and he asked me "how I knew that he was lying to me?" I explained to him that I can feel and see it in his behaviour when something is off and sure enough, I start looking and I find evidence. He's denied even in the face of that proof though? (how come that still makes me doubt myself or feel bad that I was checking up on him???) I now feel that his question about how I knew, is him trying to find out how to prevent me from finding out a next time. Pff, in my head it goes around in circles. Do I confront him with this or do I wait? The problem with lying is, I can feel when something is off but I will need to find proof of him lying which in the past has taken months, years even. Am I now waiting on him to prove he won't lie again? And does that make sense?

Sorry, confusing post I'm sure... I have to let all this information sink in, I do believe it will help to set consequences in place but now it feels like I will have to eventually enforce the consequence in this case and I will have to leave him... (which I don't want, I love him, hard to accept he might not love me)

Thanks for the information. I'm sure it will get me closer to what I need to do in my life after I get past the fact that the consequence for him also has consequences for myself.

Boundaries: to me the most important way we honor our true selves.

I want to read this book, Boundaries and Relationships: Knowing, Protecting and Enjoying the Self by Charles Whitfield, as soon as I can obtain it.

Here is the forward to the book written by John Amodeo, PhD:
http://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Relationships-Knowing-Protecting-Enjoying/dp/155874259X/ref=pd_sim_b_2

powerful stuff.

It seems that PD's of any sort hate boundaries.

I mentioned them to landlord and it angered her, just as it did my wife.
It seems to bother them because we are putting up a sign that has a big NO.

I think it's because we/I are saying that this is the limit of what I will take and I'm taking a stand. This is a no and this is off-limits.

btw, what led to my divorce or incident that led to divorce was stating, and sticking to my boundaries.
Boundaries may be the easiest way to sniff out a PD.

To reiterate on the theme -- boundaries are not about the other person, or punishing them for something you don't like.   Boundaries are about us, and keeping ourselves safe.

They're not rules you lay out for, and expect someone else to follow. 
Telling yourself what you must do, for yourself, when you are treated poorly -- and then sticking to it -- is what makes a boundary.

Boundaries are for, and about us - the rules we lay out for ourselves -regarding the treatment we will and will not accept, and how we choose to respond when our boundaries are crossed.   

For the record -  people who suffer from personality disorders aren't  the only ones who might have trouble with respecting other people's boundaries - And it's not always Non's who don't have good boundary setting skills in place for themselves, either.   Sometimes the reverse is true.  And again - being individuals -- some people who suffer with a PD will have better boundary setting and respecting skills than others - just like us Nons.

. 

This is very good. I have never understood about healthy bounderys. I have never been able to draw the line and say no to someone that is being hurtful. There was a man at my church that was always bullying me and making rude and lude comments.I would just egnore him. Then one day I saw him make a lude comment to another woman. She told him never to speak to her that way again. A light bulb went off. I said to myself that's what you do. It was so simple but lost to me for all my life.

Well, 4 years ago I sat in the office of my adult daughter's therapist - my D is diagnosed BPD/NPD - and realize now that in the office of a "professional" when she worked with us to set up "boundaries" and what were really put in place were "rules".  My D did not want any contact from me in any way shape or form - I was not to try to find out about her through anyone.  The boundaries that I put in place were that my D did not get to call me up and rage.  If she did, I would discontinue the call and we could talk later when she was not raging.  I also said that when she was ready to work on things I wanted to start by working with a therapist so that we could learn how to communicate in a healthy way.

Since that time I realize what I really have been given is the silent treatment and I know it is a form of abuse - I also know that my D who is 26 seems to be showing more and more symptoms of narcissism - I have been discarded and I have been grieving all these years - does it ever stop? The sadness and anxiety that comes with an adult child who has cut you out?  It is not just me, but her entire family.  It is as though we have ceased to exist.

I have continued therapy for myself - but it seems if I am not feeling well, or a major life event occurs, I find myself feeling so vulnerable and hurt.  I know this is a genetic and environmental illness that my D suffers from - Her father has it as well - he is also an alcoholic and he left us when she was 11 - has had no contact with her since.  I raised her on my own - and am faced with the reality that I am the one she has cut out.  Her memories are so skewed that I don't know if she remembers any truth about me or her life.  She seems to have demonized me.

Any suggestions from people who have experienced this long term silent treatment are welcomed.  I have a wonderful husband and two great step-kids - she has demonized them as well.  I know I can't let her steal my joy anymore and all I can control is me...yet as a mother, how do you move on from the pain of all of this?

Thank you ahead of time...
noexpectations :stars:

I've been looking for info on boundaries because I'm now setting them with someone.  And I'm trying not to allow myself to feel "guilty" for setting boundaries and having this person not be happy about them.  But I definitely want to enforce boundaries on what I will allow in my life and in the lives of my kids.  I'm putting a lot of thought into what are reasonable boundaries versus my anxiety of someone taking over my life-- due to a past BPD partner that completely glommed on me right away.  I also want to not renege on my boundaries because I start feeling "bad" for speaking up about what I will or will not allow in my life, especially in the early stages of this new R/S. 

Why do I want boundaries, but then feel like I might be over reacting by stating them and then wanting to enforce them?  What's that about???  Codependency issues?? 

Quote from: cagey on November 03, 2007, 03:09:40 PM
Rules vs Boundaries

This is where a lot of people get confused.

Basically rules are about someone else and boundaries are about us.

An example might be:

Rule:

You may not use something of mine without permission.

Boundary:

If my things are used without permission, I will remove them from availability.

Another example:

Rule:

You will not speak disrepectfully to me.

Boundary:

If I am spoken to disrefectfully, I will leave until the conversation can continue respectfully.

Rules are made to be broken and there is always an exception to one. Boundaries are consistent always.

Basically, rules are about the other person and attempts to control their actions; boundaries are only about us and what we will do if they are crossed.

Cagey

Reading this post is like running into a brick wall for me! I want to thank you for posting it! This will help me in my relationships, job and being a parent and a teacher. Boundaries is much better than rules. And the fact that they cannot be broken and no exceptions. I will be changing a lot of aspects in my life because of this post. Thank you again.

It's so odd to me that we struggle with boundaries.  I don't know why.  Is it because we were taught to play nice?  To turn the other cheek?  So what has happened to me is what someone above has described.  I've always ignored people when they've acted rudely to me.  I don't know why.  Maybe as a child I didn't know what else to do? :stars:  And then this ignoring just became habit?    It's a bad way to being because I get resentful and hurt, and this poor behavior by others doesn't change towards me.  So lately I've been making myself speak up and bring attention to bad behavior.  I also have given myself permission finally to feel hurt by other's behaviors towards me.  No longer will I let it slide because they have something going on in them or their lives.  My feelings and life are just as important.

Two wees ago I set a patient straight that was being  demanding and rude to me.  Usually I ignore the bad behavior and bitch to my coworkers about what a pain in the ass the patient is.  This time I looked her straight in the eye and told her she was rude and demanding and she needed to stop.  She of course claimed that she wasn't.  A week later later she came back in for an incision check and got stuck with me as her Nurse!!  Haha.  I heard her whispering to her boyfriend something about "Nurse Ratchett".  I said "Yup I am.  call me whatever you want but you were no prize yourself that day".  Most of the public act appropriately, but this experience taught me that I can appropriately state my opinion and expectations of people.  If I get reported, so be it.  I said nothing rude or inappropriate.  I just made a remark about bad behavior.

Quote from: MakingChanges on December 11, 2014, 03:44:37 PM
Most of the public act appropriately, but this experience taught me that I can appropriately state my opinion and expectations of people. 

:cheer:

That's a wonderful step! Kudos.

Yes, i do think children of PDs struggle with boundaries because we learned it was safe to obey and extremely unsafe to assert ourselves. My uNPD mother made it very unsafe for me to have boundaries, she demanded total enmeshment. So of course that's what I learned and thought was true of the whole world. Now here I am a grown woman and still learning how to assert boundaries with other people. Did you also experience enmeshment?

I struggle with the same thing you do, keeping quiet when people are rude. Recently I was screamed at and harassed by a neighbor (I'm not the first person he's gone off on) and the "new me" turned around, looked him square in the eye, addressed him as "sir", and recited the facts to him. Then I finished what I was doing and filed a complaint against him. It felt REALLY GOOD to be empowered and act like a woman with rights rather than a scared little girl with no rights. It amazes me every time that I say "no" or set a boundary and realize I'm entitled to it. Maybe that's the thing with children of PDs - we were taught that we had no entitlement.

Anyway, glad you put that rude patient in her place!

I actually set a coworker straight last evening and I was appropriate and feel great about it.  My coworker is a pain in the ass passive aggressive type.  We've complained for many years about her behavior.  Well last night I was in charge and asked her to start a second patient that was coming in because I needed to help a junior nurse that was having problems in her patient's room.  This PA Nurse was dozing behind me at the nurse's station but pipes up with ,"well I'll try".....   We work in a Delivery Room so I can't have patients just hanging out without being seen by a Nurse.  So 15 mins later, the floor clerk said to me"That patient is here but C____  never went in her room.  She was walking up and down the hall here talking to herself that she couldn't do it because her patient needed an epidural".  I felt instant rage.  I went to her patient's room and said," C---- did you start that patient or did you ask someone else to care for her?".  She replied, "I don't know what you want from me, I'm doing an epidural.  I can't start her".   I appropriately and clearly said to her ,"What I expect from you is effective and direct  communication to me about whether or not I need to assign another Nurse.  I expect that you communicate to me and not to whomever might be listening as you vent up and down the hall so I can make sure that someone is attending to this patient's needs"  As I walked away I did a little PA behavior of my own and continued with, "And I'm in no mood to play the C-----  PA games tonight".    Later she came up to me to apologize but to continue to explain her inappropriate behavior and poor communication.  I said ,"C-----, I expect you to directly and effectively speak to me as the charge nurse if you're having trouble with the assignment.  I can't have patients sitting unattended in empty rooms because I didn't know that you blew off the assignment that I gave you but feel somehow that your deflection of this assignment was a proper handoff".  I wasn't backing down and allowing her PA behavior to be explained or OK'd. 

I feel that I made great strides because instead of bitchily going back to coworkers and complaining the same tired story about her, I hit it head on.  And I realized that either she'll change her future interactions with me, or I'll keep going at her every time she pulls her crap with me.

I feel really empowered today because I was assertive with her.  It helps that I was in a bitch of a mood because the unit was escalating with busyness when she pulled her crap with me.  I can't stand people that aren't team players.

I was trying to think of how I might be failing some clients as a personal trainer.  I'm going to consider that maybe I don't understand boundaries as well as I should. Or rather, I do understand them, but when I'm feeling crummy I don't act in line with what I know.  (That happens a lot; not acting in accordance with what I think.) This is a field where good boundaries are critical and I have to really work at it. 

I have really enjoyed reading this post, and realise how most of my life I have lived with a total lack of boundaries, as a child I lived by rules, I had no clue as to what was going on, my emotional needs where far from met. I carried this into all my adult relationships.

For the first time in my life I have started to set boundaries with people in my life, it is just the start of a new me, but I also realise how important it is for me to teach my children how to set boundaries in a healthy way. Off to google children's books..

Boundaries are something I have been thinking about quite a lot this year. They weren't something I realized I had the right to apply in one particular relationship. I seem to naturally use them with most of my relationships, but they were desperately needed in another. Setting boundaries has been the most powerful thing I have ever done. It gave me the time and space I needed to start healing and getting perspective. To me, it is saying that I have no control over another person's behavior, but I do have the right to handle it how I need to or to avoid it altogether if I want to.

It's incredibly freeing to set boundaries and learn to not care how the other person responds. I have two friends who are divorcing. I clearly told one that I would not be discussing his wife. He keeps trying to do so anyway, and I simply remind him of the boundary and refuse to continue the conversation. It doesn't really matter if this makes him angry or frustrated. I clearly stated the boundary and he will have to deal with the consequences.

Boundaries are the way we raise our children. We cannot make anyone do anything, but we can give our children consequences. It's the way the world works. When my kids leave home, they can continue to do anything they please, but they will know that there are consequences for crossing boundaries. What I simultaneously want to teach them is that they have the right to set their own boundaries and learn healthy ways to deal with people who try to cross those boundaries.

Even though we might think of boundaries under other terms (social conventions, rules, normal behavior, etc), boundaries are absolutely everywhere once we start paying attention.

I've been assertively setting some long overdue boundaries lately. Previously I might vent about this person behind their back, avoid them like the plague. But finally they said something really inappropriate to me and I responded with a very clear statement that this was not helpful, not asked for, and none of their business. And never to speak to me that way again.

I've been realizing that the reason I've feared setting boundaries is because I somehow came to believe that no one can handle it, that they're going to die if I set a boundary.  (possibly this is due to over 25 years of marriage to someone with an anxiety disorder who WOULD get really sick if I tried to have personal boundaries).  And also from the belief that "I am my brother's keeper."

But more and more, I choose to believe that I am NOT my brother's keeper. Brother needs to step up and take care of himself!

Boundary between mother and daughter: 

I feel a mother needs to set a clear boundary between her identity and the child's.  She has to do this for them both, so the child can move on with her life and become an adult that is separate from mom.  Otherwise she might be afraid to leave, feel guilty, overidentify, etc etc.  The whole mess of problems.  It's the mom's responsibility to take charge and make things clear.  It's also her job to make sure the child doesn't worry about mom.  So she can go, and not feel like she's breaking a bond.  It's her job to say "you don't owe me anything".

When my mom tries to keep me in her life against my wishes, it is just as bad as someone grabbing me and throwing me into a car against my will.  A mom can have that much power sometimes. 

More on Boundaries:
https://www.uky.edu/hr/sites/www.uky.edu.hr/files/wellness/images/Conf14_Boundaries.pdf

Copy attached. Awesome article!

I most appreciated the section on barriers to boundary setting and the concepts are helping me rethink some of my exaggerated sense of fear.

This thought was most helpful also: "When you have weak emotional boundaries, it's like getting caught in the midst of a hurricane with no protection. You expose yourself to being greatly affected by others' words, thoughts, and actions and end up feeling bruised, wounded, and battered. "

How to Create Healthy Boundaries:
https://www.uky.edu/hr/sites/www.uky.edu.hr/files/wellness/images/Conf14_Boundaries.pdf

Boundaries for Codependents
http://www.goyourownway.org/GOYOUROWNWAY/DOCUMENTS/EMOTIONAL%20WELLBEING/BOUNDARIES%20FOR%20CODEPENDENTS.pdf

PDFs attached.

Another good article
http://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Quote"The terminology of "setting boundaries" is misleading and often mistaken to mean "giving an ultimatum." It is true that issuing ultimatums can be part of this life skill and at times, very necessary, however it's only one aspect of this life skill.

When we speak of the boundaries we are really speaking about our personal values and our need to get them in focus and live with more conviction. This is a lifestyle, not a quick fix to an interpersonal squabble."

This was helpful because I started to research information on personal values, how to define them and how to attach boundaries to them. I can definitely see how attaching the boundary to a personal core value would make it much easier to identify when a boundary is crossed. It would also be easier to honor and defend boundaries when they are crystal clear and attached to a core value. It would become more instinctive to stand up and defend a boundary.

Some real life examples of what this looks like in action:
http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0


Other resources and information:
http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=27228.0

From this article
http://markmanson.net/boundaries

I appreciate these points most:

QuoteHealthy Personal Boundaries = Taking responsibility for your own actions and emotions, while NOT taking responsibility for the actions or emotions of others

QuotePeople with poor boundaries typically come in two flavors: those who take too much responsibility for the emotions/actions of others, and those who expect others to take too much responsibility for their own emotions/actions.

QuoteThis is what happens in these codependent relationships. The victim creates problems not because there are real problems, but because they believe it will cause them to feel loved. The saver doesn't save the victim because they actually care about the problem, but because they believe if they fix the problem they will feel loved. In both cases, the intentions are needy and therefore unattractive and self-sabotaging.

If the saver really wanted to save the victim, the saver would say, "Look, you're blaming others for your own problems, deal with it yourself." That would be actually loving the victim.

The victim, if they really loved the saver, would say, "Look, this is my problem, you don't have to fix it for me." That would be actually loving the saver

Really owning our own emotions as the Toolbox here discusses and only our emotions holds the key for me. It shows respect for others to let them own their own emotions.

This article helped me appreciate attaching consequences to boundaries and some real examples of what that looks like. I'm not sure I agree with exactly the way the boundary and consequence is worded. The article explains how remove the emotional charge from boundary stating. It seems so matter of fact and easy the way it's outlined here.

https://coachingandthejourney.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/establishing-and-enforcing-personal-boundaries/

Some highlights I appreciated:

QuoteOnce you establish and enforce consequences, boundaries become real.  Until then, they're just something you hope that people will honor – hope is not a strategy for establishing and maintaining healthy relationships.   

QuoteIf you're uncomfortable with saying "no" or perceive that doing so may trigger anger in some people or cause them to not like you, I would encourage you to try reframing the belief that 'no' leads to conflict and upset, or that you must raise your voice in order to be heard.

QuoteBy referring to a personal "golden policy", you're sending the message that, "Hey, this isn't personal; it's a core belief I have."   Having stated your boundary, you should not spend time justifying or defending your decision – spend your precious time living – not defending – your values. 

Thanks Bloomie for pointing me to this site! This is a really good topic and free info and training :
http://www.7cups.com/boundaries/

'Your job is to protect your own emotional energy NOT to make everyone around you happy. It's part of your emotional health.'

'We value others emotions as well as our own but we are responsible for only our own.'

Beadreamer,
I absolutely love reading your posts and the actions you've taken on boundaries. I've been with my NPD husband for 7 1/2 years, but only just learned of NPD two years ago, and only found this forum roughly a week ago.
Today I started learning about boundaries. It seems to sum up boundaries, we must learn to control ourselves only, not others.

Anyway, so today my husband had a flare up and rather than getting stressed out with -here we go again. I found it as an opportunity to PRACTICE setting healthy boundaries.

I thought at first there was going to be so much to learn and read about boundary setting. But to my pleasant suprise it's pretty simple.

Know your boundaries.
Set your boundaries.
Be consistent.

I also love how you spoke on... Why walk on egg shells? No matter what you do could cause a flare up, so just be yourself and set boundaries.

You're posts on your experience and actions are very motivational!
Thank you!

From another member:

Quote from: kayjewel on September 01, 2015, 04:25:25 AM
In other words, you don't say your boundaries. You just do them.

Boundaries are not an attempt to make someone do something. They are not about getting the other person to understand and comply. Boundaries are about us getting clear inside of ourselves as to what is appropriate and necessary for our mental health, and then taking action accordingly.

Quote from: practical on December 31, 2015, 07:07:33 AM
I came across this article and thought I share it as I found it a helpful way to think about boundaries and implement them in my every day life. This is a way to officially state them, which might not necessarily work with PDs, but we need boundaries for interactions with Non's too, and I'm not always good at setting those either. I particularly like that if you call them "Personal Policies" it is harder for others to push back against them as it is a value system and therefore personal.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-policy-of-saying-no-can-save-you-time-and-guilt-1450883525

Here are some quotes:

"Personal policies are an established set of simple rules that guide your decisions and actions. On the surface, they offer a gentler way of saying no, as in: "I don't take work calls on Saturdays because that's my time with family". On a deeper level, they encourage reflection, help to define priorities and aid decision-making, especially with in-the-momen requests. They can stop you from defaulting to that regretful "yes"."

"Saying "no" to someone goes against our basic need to forge and maintain connections, which were once fundamental to survival," says Kristin Sommer, a professor of psychology at Baruch College at the City University of New York. "Personal policies work because they essentially remove rejection from the equation." You're not saying "no" to the person but simply upholding your policy.

In addition, says William Urys, co-found of the Harvard Negotiation Project, "executing on (policies) consistently can signal a sense of integrity, predictability and trustworthiness, which is key to building an strong personal and profession relationship."

"Here's a simple guide to getting started: Begin by defining a priority (like making it home for family dinners), name the sources of stress that interfere (such as evening work meetings), design a personal policy around it and then let others know: "I don't take meetings after 6 p.m."

"Because personal policies are so specific to an individual, says the writer (and avid personal policy maker) Sarah Knight, "You'll find no one wants to argue with you - they'll be afraid of hurting your feelings instead."

From WSJ, 12/26/2015, "A Policy of Saying "No" Can Save You Time and Guilt", by Jennifer Breheny Wallace

Quote from: practical on December 31, 2015, 08:41:33 AM
Thanks for reminding me about this part.

In a second way at looking at personal policies the article deals with "I can't" versus "I don't", with "I don't" showing a higher degree of conviction. In the article it is in the context of diet or exercise to increase motivation but I'm sure this kind of phrasing can also help with setting boundaries/personal policies, a wobbly "I can't involve myself with PD drama." because we feel somewhat FOGged is much weaker than "I don't involve myself with PD drama!" and might us help to detach. At least for me, if I think "I can't take F's drama anymore", it feels I should really toughen up and dig deep into myself to find some energy to be able to "help" him with his latest crisis and I feel tired and drained. If I say to myself "I don't involve myself with F's drama!" the thought comes with and exclamation point and no other thoughts attach themselves to it, I feel energized and move on.

Here are some quotes about "I can't" vs. "I don't" from the article:

"Research shows that personal policies are also helpful in reaching personal goals, like losing weight - but the wording is important. According to a series of experiments published in the Journal of Consumer Research in 2012, telling yourself "I don't skip the gym" versus "I can't skip the gym", for example, can help motivation."

"In another study, published in the International Journal of Research in Marketing, the same researchers found that people who said "I don't" in role-playing and scenario-based exercises were more persuasive then those who said "I can't". So the next time an eager hostess tries to break your diet by offering "Just a little piece", kindly tell her, "No thank you, I don't eat cake" says Prof. Patrick. Saying "I don't" connotes a higher degree of conviction ad makes it hard for someone to push back."

From WSJ, 12/26/2015, "A Policy of Saying "No" Can Save You Time and Guilt", by Jennifer Breheny Wallace

Seven Tips to Creating Healthy Boundaries:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-flux/201511/7-tips-create-healthy-boundaries-others

This blog helps explain how to respond to anger and fear in a productive way. To use anger to hold to boundaries and to respond to fear to protect ourselves from abuse. The three levels of the different emotions helps because staying in the middle (mood) state of anger and fear is how many of us lived our entire lives.

Excerpts:

QuoteAnger’s job is to help you set and maintain effective interpersonal boundaries. At its most subtle level, anger helps you uphold mutual respect and keep open the lines of communication in your relationships.
. . .
If you tend to repress your anger, you’ll be unable to restore your boundaries because you won’t have the strength and focus you need to protect yourself; therefore, further damage will inevitably follow the initial affront. Your anger exists to protect you honorably. If you repress it and refuse to respond to an insult or affront, it is as if your castle sentry is inviting attacks and letting people get away with vandalism.
. . .
But when your anger is not allowed its natural flow, you’ll have trouble setting and maintaining your boundaries, you’ll tend to dishonor or enmesh with others, and your self-image will be imperiled by your reliance on the capricious opinions of the outside world.

Healthy anger sets your boundaries and helps you engage more effectively because it allows you to relate authentically and respectfully. When you have an awakened connection to your anger and a clear sense of your own boundaries, you’ll be able to honor boundaries and individuality in others; therefore, your relationships won’t be based on power struggles, projections, or enmeshment.
http://karlamclaren.com/understanding-and-befriending-anger/

QuoteFear is not cowardice; it is the protective mechanism inside you that knows you’re not adequately prepared for whatever is coming next. Fear stops you – not to immobilize you, but to give you the time you need to gather yourself and your resources. Fear steps forward when you require extra skills – or time to take a breather – so that you can make it through the next moment. If you trust your fear and take time to focus yourself, it will give you those skills.
. . .
Your free-flowing fear brings you instincts, intuition, and focus. If you can rely upon this form of fear when you’re confused or upset, you can access the information you need to calmly figure out what’s going on; you don’t need to feel afraid to access the gifts your fear brings you.
http://karlamclaren.com/fear-intuition-instincts-and-awareness/

My conclusions: If we're too fearful to act on our anger, to claim our human rights and boundaries, then we need to adequately prepare for the task so we can without much drama simply speak our boundaries freely. Back to the Toolbox! Otherwise we get stuck spinning between anger and fear and never will get ourselves unstuck.

Emotional vocabulary list: http://karlamclaren.com/emotional-vocabulary-page/

QuoteTIPS FOR SETTING BOUNDARIES
Some tips for strengthening boundary-setting skills are:

1. The things we say we can't stand, don't like or feel angry about may be areas screaming for boundaries.

2. When we know we need to set a limit with someone, do it clearly, preferably without anger, and in as few words as possible. Avoid justifying, rationalizing or apologizing.

3. We cannot set a boundary (limit) and at the same time take care of another person's feelings.

4. We will be tested when we set boundaries. Plan on it. It doesn't do any good to set a boundary until we're ready to enforce if. Often, the key to boundaries isn't convincing other people we have limits – it's convincing ourselves.

6. Be prepared to follow through by ensuring that our behavior matches the boundaries we set.  What we do needs to match what we say. Consequences and ultimatums are one  way to enforce boundaries.  We will set boundaries when we're ready, and not a minute sooner. We do it on our own time, not someone else's.

7. Healthy limits benefit everyone. People may not know they/re overstepping our boundaries-unless we fell them. People will respect people that they can't use.

8. A support system can be helpful as we strive to establish and enforce boundaries. It can be valuable to have feedback about what's normal and what our rights are. A cheering squad is very helpful as we strive to assert our rights.

9. There's a fun side to boundary setting too. We get to identify what we like, what feels good, what we want, and what brings us pleasure. That's when we begin to enhance the quality of our lives.

Healthy living means you give to people from time to time. Strive for balance. Strive for flexibility. Strive for a healthy sense of self and how you deserve to be treated.

– author unknown at this time –

https://briangrady.wordpress.com/2009/03/24/565/

99 Ways to Say No

QuoteThis year, I decided to follow the advice of some smart people and create a word of the year. My word — REST — is my attempt to direct my thoughts, actions, and intentions to be more rested, healthy, and whole.

When I have a choice between X and Y, I remember my word. When I need to make a decision between going out or staying home, I remember my word. When I want to drink another double shot espresso, I remember my word.

Part of the challenge in this is that it has tasked me to say "No" on many occasions when my normally overactive brain and body simply wants to shout "YES!"

Saying NO, as everyone knows, is hard. And so I've been learning to get better at it.

Recently I challenged myself to come up with 50 ways to say NO.

My aim was that each word or phrase should be truthful, firm, and not apologetic or explanatory. (Sometimes I succeeded wildly, sometimes not so much.) My readers eat up the list, and sent me tons of great phrases to add.

And then, I wondered if I could do better.

Could I come up with 99?

I could. And I did.

99 Ways to Say No

Not now.
Look! Squirrel! (This was the best NO suggestion I received from a commentor on my earlier post. I can't wait to use it.)
My word of the year is REST, so I can't fit another thing in.
Nope.
No thanks, I won't be able to make it.
Not this time.
Heck no.
No way, Jose. (Since my husband is named Jose, this is a favorite in our house.)
Regrettably, I'm not able to.
It's that time of the year when I must say no.
It's a Wednesday. I have a "No on Wednesday" policy.
Ask me in a year.
I know someone that might be a fit for that. I'll email you their information.
You're so kind to think of me, but I can't.
Maybe another time.
Sounds great, but I can't commit.
Rats! Would've loved to.
I'm slammed.
Perhaps next season when things clear up.
I'm at the end of my rope right now so have to take a raincheck.
If only it worked.
I'll need to bow out.
I'm going to have to exert my NO muscle on this one.
I'm taking some time.
Thanks for thinking of me, but I can't.
I'm in a season of NO.
I'm not the girl for you on this one.
I'm learning to limit my commitments.
I'm not taking on new things.
Another time might work.
It doesn't sound like the right fit.
I'm RESTing right now.
I'm not sure I'm the best for it.
No thank you, but it sounds lovely.
It sounds like you're looking for something I'm not able to give right now.
I believe I wouldn't fit the bill, sorry.
It's not a good idea for me.
Not now.
I'm trying to cut back.
I won't be able to help.
If only I had a clone!
I'm not able to set aside the time needed.
I won't be able to dedicate the time I need to it.
I'm head-down right now on a project, so won't be able to.
I wish there were two of me!
I'm honored, but can't.
NoNoNoNoNoNo.
I'm booked into something else.
I'm not able to make that time.
Thanks, but no thanks.
I'm not able to make it this week/month/year.
Bye now.
I've got too much on my plate right now.
I'm not taking on anything else right now.
Bandwidth is low, so I won't be able to make it work.
I wish I could make it work.
Not possible.
I wish I were able to.
If only I could!
I'd love to — but can't.
Darn! Not able to fit it in.
Nah.
No thanks, I have another commitment.
Unfortunately, it's not a good time.
Sadly I have something else.
Unfortunately not.
I have something else. Sorry.
Apologies, but I can't make it.
Thank you so much for asking. Can you keep me on your list for next year?
I'm flattered you considered me, but unfortunately I'll have to pass this time.
And my favorite, "Oh I wish I could help but you know, I bet Claire could help you with that."
Thank you for thinking of me. Unfortunately it's just not a match.
No, sorry, that's not really my thing
Can I get back to you on that?
Ew.
No, I'd rather you didn't, but thanks anyway
I can't make it work.
It just won't fit right now.
I'm really buckling down on my priorities right now, so I can't.
No say I.
What's the compensation?
How much are you able/willing to pay
Ick.
Are you able to better that offer?
Sorry, no can do.
I only say yes to very select opportunities, and unfortunately this doesn't meet my criteria.
The demands would be too much for me.
It's not feasible for me to take this on.
I wish I had all the time in the world.
My body double can.
In another life.
I cry, but decline.
My advisors won't agree to it.
My body says yes, but my heart says No.
I'm not the person you're looking for.
I don't have an iota of bandwidth left in my brain.
If only.
N to the O.
NO.

From: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20130501190655-52397036-100-ways-to-say-no?trk=pulse-det-nav_art

Quote from: Spring Butterfly on January 01, 2016, 09:49:43 PM
Balance

Here are a few tips for finding the sweet spot in your ego...

Practice empathy - Take a walk in someone else's shoes. Imagine what their experience of this moment is like. Consider the impact of your words and actions on them. If you're unsure, ask them how they feel. Really listen.

Get crystal clear on boundaries - Know what's okay and not okay with you. Get comfortable with saying, "No", "Yes", and "Let me think about that". Be assertive, not passive nor aggressive.

Hit the reset button - Start an "Improve & Remove" list. Notice what you want more of, and what you want less of in your life. Be proactive. Develop a plan. Take action.

Be open. Be aware. Stop judging. - Just be present. Drop into the now. With a mindful awareness of your values, intentions, and goals and an unconditional acceptance of others, you can stay grounded and keep your ego in check.

Focus on the good - When you're feeling the metaphorical smack down, get up & brush yourself off. Remind yourself of your worth and lessons learned. Discover the wisdom in the experience and vow to do better next time. Don't fall prey to fear, judgment, and self doubt. Those too need to be acknowledged, measured, and balanced.

Know your truth - The more internalized your values have become, the easier it is to confront, deal with or simply walk away from something that is truly wrong.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-intelligent-divorce/201512/the-narcissistic-injury

Setting Boundaries is Essential to your Empowerment

QuoteThere is so much to say about boundaries and how foundational they are for our sense of self. In this post, I'll focus mainly on the relationship between our self-worth and our ability to set healthy boundaries effectively.

Without firm boundaries, we can easily become "merged" or enmeshed with others, causing us to emotionally caretake, be overly responsible, or neglect our own needs. When boundaries are too rigid we isolate ourselves and push others away.

Healthy boundaries are "selectively permeable." They are not too rigid nor too loose (not extreme). Rather, they are flexible and can be opened or firm when needed, much like a healthy cell.

Boundaries are related to our early attachment needs as children. They pose the question: 'Where do I end and where do you begin?' All of us started out in life as a "we" when we were infants bonded with our mothers. Being securely attached to our mothers helped us internalize this sense of security and helped us to form our own healthy, separate sense of self. If we were not securely attached to our mothers, we may have developed a background sense of inner insecurity and on a subconscious level, we may still be looking for this security from other people as adults.

On one side of the spectrum, this can cause us to have very weak boundaries, letting in anyone who remotely relates to us with care and affection, being too trusting, or having a very high tolerance for poor treatment from others. Weak boundaries can open us up to being taken advantage of by others and can cause us to be on an emotional roller coaster, because our sense of security is not yet fully anchored within ourselves.

Confidence and Feeling Safe in your own Skin

An important step in developing healthy boundaries is learning that no outer person can provide the inner safety that you need; the time for that is only in early childhood and that time is over. However, as adults we can mourn that lost opportunity and develop inner safety within.

Knowing ourselves as individuals is essential to true intimacy and connection. As we fine-tune our self-awareness, we can know more fully our own needs, desires and preferences. Taking the time and space for your inner work is an important form of self-care and it reinforces a deep sense of integrity.

It's a paradox that the more centered and grounded we are in our own inner sense of self, the better partners and friends we are able to become.

The old paradigm: Compliance with others = Acceptance from others

You are the expert on You. It's OK to be yourself, to have differing needs and preferences than those around you. This may seem obvious but we're surrounded with the images of desirable females being the most yielding and most willing to be dominated. These messages remain in our subconscious until we actively dismantle them. Have you ever caught yourself having a background thought that surprised you? This happened to me when I ran into some friends I hadn't seen in a while and had gained a few pounds. I noticed an impulse to say something like "I haven't been to the gym in a while. I've been so busy lately." I was disturbed by this impulse to apologize for and provide a narrative for others about changes in my own body. Noticing this impulse was very informative on the power of unconscious messages and how they can emerge into our daily lives even though we don't consciously agree with them.

What you say No to determines the success of what you say Yes to.

Our boundaries determine what we say yes and no to. Learning how to say No is a skill and an art. Before asserting a boundary, It's important to take the time we need to process emotions like rage and fear that may be initially present so that we come from our highest integrity in the exchange. Anytime we can communicate a clear and clean "No" devoid of bitterness or negativity, we are demonstrating a high-level of self-worth.

Sometimes loving someone involves affirming your separateness, not your sameness.

We give our power away when we accept the shame that others project onto us because of their own unprocessed pain. We serve others, not by accepting their pain as our own, but by highlighting their ability to make new choices. Don't feel obligated to absorb pain that isn't yours.

Healthy boundaries: Sovereignty of Self

Shame is a toxic emotion instilled in us from childhood that causes us to soften our will, to feel less sure of ourselves, less powerful and thus more compliant to the wishes of others. When we set firm, healthy boundaries we are reclaiming ourselves from the toxic shame we may have experienced in childhood and asserting our sovereignty as individuals with the power and right to define who we are, and what we will or will not allow into the sacred space of ourselves.

For others, being in your life is a privilege...not a right

As we continue to realize our true worth, we are less willing to tolerate the people, circumstances and situations in our lives that do not reflect our worth and self-respect. No one has a right to be in your world; nor is anyone entitled to your time. If people want to have the privilege of being in your life, it must be earned by treating you with consideration and respect. As you emerge into greater self-worth and set new boundaries, the people who may have felt entitled to a place in your life may protest or object, unconsciously seeking to instill a sense of guilt or obligation in you, perhaps calling you ungrateful or selfish for holding your boundaries firm.

Do you give your power away and acquiesce to their demands? Or do you respectfully communicate your boundaries even in the face of their disapproval? How you respond to that is a reflection of your self-worth.

Healing the "good girl" syndrome

As little girls we were rewarded for being relational, compliant, quiet and invisible. The covert message is that you don't deserve to have ownership of yourself. Messages about the primacy of appearance and sex-appeal also communicate that "Your body is not your own. It exists for the pleasure of others." These early cultural and familial messages may have caused us to develop, to some degree, a false self. This false self helped us gain acceptance from others but at the cost of our own authentic needs and desires.

Maturity involves shedding the false self and discovering our authentic self---separating out our true needs and wants from the fake ones we took on in order to survive.

In the process of discovering our true, authentic needs and desires things may change in our lives which can be very challenging, but ultimately the changes will bring new forms in our lives that reflect who we really are. People in our lives who have been used to us being compliant, submissive or docile may be surprised or feel inconvenienced when we assert our boundaries.

A Quote from Eve Ensler:
"To be a strong woman, to be a fierce woman, to be a true woman, to be a leader, to be truly powerful, you have to get to place where you can tolerate people not liking you. And know that when you actually do that, you have to fall back on your own moral imperative in your own moral trunk and say, 'I don't care, this is what I believe. This is who I am.'"

You are your own treasure. You belong to You.

Having healthy boundaries involves being connected to your worth, being anchored to your own center of truth, and being willing to communicate with those around you authentically. It's a skill that can be learned, practiced and refined over time. When starting out it may seem scary but each time it gets easier and more empowering. Over time, we start attracting more and more people that that are willing to respect our new, healthy boundaries. The ones who are unwilling to do so will pass out of your life.

When we have healthy boundaries, we feel increasingly safe and supported within ourselves and we also become more effective at everything we do.

___________________________________________________________

Questions to contemplate on boundaries:
• In what ways am I giving myself away?
• What am I taking in that I should be refusing?
• In what ways was I rewarded for having weak boundaries as a child?
• What are some current opportunities in my life to start setting healthy boundaries?
• What do I need to say No to, so that I can more effectively live out my "Yes" to the things I truly desire?
•Part of having healthy boundaries is respecting those of others. Are there any ways I am violating the boundaries of others?

http://www.womboflight.com/setting-boundaries-is-essential-to-your-empowerment/

Please note that though I am posting this it is actually an insightful take on boundaries that is authored and quoted from member Leonor's response in another thread. The team wanted to add this excellent post to our Boundary thread resource. Original thread from which this quote is copied is found here: http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=77651.msg676310#msg676310

Quote from: Leonor on December 17, 2018, 03:48:41 PM
Hi Cordelia,

I´m so sorry you´re going through this. I have been, too, for many many years, and it´s caused anguish, anxiety and pain for me and my h. Both of us grew up in dysfunction and abuse, and it is so hard to see your way through the fog when it lays so thick all about you.

If you don´t mind, I´d like to share with you some thoughts that have helped me stay clear in my mind when everyone else around me is  so FOG'gy they´re all bumping into each other:

1. It´s not me, it´s not him, it´s not them. It´s the pattern. It´s the illness. It´s the dysfunction. When I hear myself saying or thinking ¨Well, I ...¨ or ¨If only he ...¨ or ¨I can´t believe that they ...¨, I check myself and change the word: ¨Well, the pattern is ...¨, ¨If only this illness were ..." or "I can't believe that the dysfunction ..." It helps me de-personalize the situation (this is something being done to me) as well as helps me stay in a neutral, if not compassionate, place towards my h. and inlaws (this is something that they are doing). This is a pattern, a pattern I can trace back generations, a pattern we are all caught up in, and the current situation is just revealing that pattern to me.

2. It's not a motive. It's not a message. It's data. When I hear myself saying or thinking about why someone would do such a thing, or what exactly do they want from me, or how I should go about responding to this or that, I check myself. It's data. It's a fact or a figure, the way that percentages or pie charts are facts and figures. And no skewing, like "It is a fact that my MIL has a personality disorder" or "It is observable that my h. loves his family more than me". Instead: "It is a fact that when we have lent our parents money, they spent it on beer and did not repay it" or "It is a fact that when my inlaws come over, I get nauseous." Then we can decide what to do with that data: "Mom says she doesn't have enough money to buy her prescriptions. Do we lend her money? Well, it is a fact that the last time we gave Mom money, she spent it on beer and did not repay us." You can use that data to get mad at Mom ("She never even said thank you!") or to argue with h. ("But why is it so hard for you to see that your mother is an alcoholic?") or to make a decision: "We will not give Mom any money."

3. It's not a boundary for them. It's not a boundary with h. It's a boundary for you, and it is yours.  This is the hardest one of all. When you say, "I'm going NC with MIL", it doesn't mean that all of a sudden no one, including MIL or h. (least of all MIL or h!) are going to say, "Oh, let's leave Cordelia alone, because she has this boundary now." If they were capable of that, then you wouldn't need to set boundaries in the first place. Instead, you stating NC is an invitation for your MIL to push back even harder: she will knock at the door, peer in the windows, slip letters under the mailbox, peer through the garden plantings. And because your h. is afraid that something terrible will happen to him if Mom is upset (remember, pattern! long ago!), he is going to feel extreme anxiety and want to soothe that anxiety by soothing Mom. Which means that he will gift that anxiety to you, because you are the Safe Person with Boundaries.

So what's the point? Well, if I'm upset that my boundaries were not respected, I have to take a good long look in the mirror. When my h. came home from his parents' place in a huff, did I smile and welcome him and allow his feelings to dissipate on their own? Or did I follow him around until he told me what had happened? When his mom ticked me off royally, did I do something healthy with my anger, like going out for a long run, or did I run her down to h.? When his f. called, did I leave the room and listen to music on my phone, or did I kind of hang out and "overhear" their conversation? And if SIL sent me a text or a letter, did I delete it ... or did I read it after all? In other words, who's the person not respecting my boundary? Usually ... me!

Right now, you're all in the FOG. It's o.k. Remember, you've all been raised in the FOG, to function in FOG, to feel more comfortable in the FOG than out of it. The FOG is not evil or weakness or cruelty. It's just FOG. And just as you can move through fog, you can move through FOG (don't worry, it will roll back in so you'll always have an opportunity to practice!)

"Dear, I love you and I know you worry about your Mom (pattern). But last time we talked about her, we got into an argument (data). Let's save this for counseling (boundary)."
"Dear, I see that your Mom has called and wants to talk with me (pattern). But the last time we talked she said some things that hurt my feelings (data). I'd rather not talk right now (boundary)."
"Dear, I know that your family usually spends the holidays together (pattern). But the last time we went to your parents' house, your father had too much to drink and your sister stormed out of the room. I'd rather spend the day elsewhere (boundary)"

Wishing you much peace and gentleness!