Out of the FOG

Coping with Personality Disorders => Dealing with PD Parents => Topic started by: jennsc85 on October 12, 2017, 10:42:54 PM

Title: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: jennsc85 on October 12, 2017, 10:42:54 PM
You guys are saints for putting up with my endless drivel about dealing with my ridiculous mother. This is the only place I feel safe in truly letting all of my feelings out about my situations with her.

Yesterday she asked me to do something for her. I told her I wasn't able to because I wasn't feeling well. I stayed home from work yesterday, so I figured I'd tell the truth. She demands to know exactly what's wrong with me. I give her an inch and she takes two miles. It's my fault for allowing it, but in the moment I feel compelled to tell her. It just all comes out. I've gotten better about this so I'm not sure what happened yesterday, but it is what it is.

So today I pick her up from an appointment (that's how all my situations seem to start, isn't it?) She starts in on me about my health issues. I don't think she's actually concerned about me as much as she likes to have something to focus on. She spent three hours last night Googling what I told her was going on with me. She relayed the abridged version of her "research" when I picked her up. She goes from sounding nice and caring to getting all ragey on me because I'm not "listening" to her. It ended with her telling me that she is going to call around to different doctor's offices until she finds the right one and pretend to be me in order to get my information and set up appointments for me. That's weird, isn't it?

So, that's over. Then she tells me that on her way home she needs me to stop by some place for her to send a fax.

I don't know if this is a PD parent thing or just something unique to my mother but literally EVERYTHING that she does takes FOREVER and it's always someone/something else's fault. A "quick trip" into the grocery store to get a bunch of bananas that she promises will only take two minutes turns into a 30 minute ordeal because she also saw such and such on sale and she couldn't go through the quick scan because blah blah blah and then there was a long line and who would have thought? and the cashier was rude so she had to complain to customer service, and can you believe...

This is what happens nearly everywhere that's supposed to be "quick."  :wacko:

Today it was sending a fax. She's in the place for over 15 minutes when I call her and ask what's going on. OH, the fax machine was broken so they're sending it on their personal fax and it's actually 8 pages instead of 4 and she had NO IDEA it would take this long. She was only trying to save me time from sending me out to do it myself... whatever.

I tell her that I need to get my daughter at school and that the traffic gets bad around this time. If I don't get my daughter by a certain time, I have to pay a late fee and plus it feels really inconsiderate! My mother tells me that she's already paid for the fax and that it's very slow sending.

Another 5 minutes pass. I call her and say that she needs to just leave the fax because I need to leave RIGHT at that moment. I raised my voice when I said this.

She comes out to the car several minutes later crying. She says that everyone in the store heard me "abusing" her over the phone and it was very embarrassing (for me! not for her... they felt sorry for her, she said).

She continues on about how she was profusely apologizing to me over the phone but I was yelling over her about needing to leave and threatening to leave her and she cannot believe how I treat her. It's the same old stuff she always says. Why didn't she have more children. I deserve all the health issues that I have. God will punish me. She can't believe how hateful I am. She says I'm a sociopath. She reads the clinical definition of a sociopath off her phone and then says "CHECK!" after everything that she believes describes me. She said "fucking sociopath!!!" and slammed the car door when she got out. I stayed silent through all of this.

She sent me this barrage of texts about how abusive I am towards her, and I don't know why but it always gets me when she says that. It makes me question everything I've said and done. I was so tempted to text her and say "Perhaps you should find someone who isn't emotionally abusive to take you to your surgery appointment in two weeks?" But I realized silence was probably better than saying something snarky that would feel good in the moment and that she could probably use against me in some way.

I feel so defeated by her.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: moglow on October 12, 2017, 11:05:29 PM
Because I've had that kind of day (reinforced with a health tot of sweet tea vodka), my inner Jennsc says very distinctly "Oh hell no! Send the text. What can she possibly do or say at this point that she hasn't already?" Then turn the phone off or block her damn texts altogether. Sometimes we get what we've paid for - and Lord knows you've been making down payments for this long enough.

My guess: This is a doomed if you do, doomed if you don't situation. If you respond by standing up for yourself and with refusal to be her doormat anymore, you're "abusive." If you say nothing, you'll be just as bad, plus you'll turn it around on yourself once again as if you've done something wrong.

Guilt and obligation run deep and are hard masters. Only you can decide when enough's enough, when it's time for you to step back and let her sleep in the bed she's made for herself. Me? I wouldn't get into a car with someone I'd "checked off" as a sociopath, and I doubt I'd let her forget that for a while. Maybe she needs to be reminded that you both have choices here, and you have repeatedly stepped up regardless of how badly you've been treated.

It's neither abusive nor punishment if you take a large step back from the steam roller she's running here. Sometimes self preservation needs to take priority.

But that's just me.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: moglow on October 12, 2017, 11:33:14 PM
Oh, and when she comes back with "I was mad when I said that! Now (enter excuse here)" you can reasonably respond with, "I know, but now *I'm* mad so the answer is still no. You need to arrange transportation with someone who isn't abusive."
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: practical on October 13, 2017, 12:43:47 AM
I'm with Moglow, I would send the text and then block her texts and phone calls, only I would add "I'm no longer available" or make that the text "I'm no longer available to drive you for your surgery or any other errants/appointments. I also forbid you to get involved in any of my affairs, this especially means trying to impersonate me to doctors." At some point enough is enough, she is way over the line with her behavior, I mean all of it!

You weren't abusive, you raised your voice in the last feeble attempt to be heard after all her "reasons" of why her darn fax was more important than you being on time for your daughter. Your daughter is a child, she isn't, the fax can wait, your daughter shouldn't have to and neither should you.

As for the the comment you are the sociopath, please read this (and I apologize if I have given you this link before), it is exactly what your M is doing: http://shrink4men.com/2011/01/19/presto-change-o-darvo-deny-attack-and-reverse-victim-and-offender/

As for her googling your health issue, lecturing you and then coming up with the grand plan to impersonate you while calling doctors to find you the "right one", it is beyond creepy and a huge boundary violation. I don't care how much she yells and screams "But, but, but I'm only doing it out of concern for you." - she isn't, she is using it to run over all your boundaries and insert herself even more into your life. And as for why you spilled the beans yesterday, because you weren't feeling well, and holding up boundaries is hard on a good day, never mind on a bad day.

It's neither abusive nor punishment if you take a large step back from the steam roller she's running here. Sometimes self preservation needs to take priority.
:yeahthat:
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: all4peace on October 13, 2017, 01:07:10 AM
For the sake of her "mental health," please remove your abusive self (tongue in cheek) from her constant presence. It will be good for her. It would be terrible to force her to continue to suffer this abuse (sarcasm font needed)
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: WomanInterrupted on October 13, 2017, 03:56:26 AM
I'm with Moglow - send it!   :righton:

You're putting her on notice - if she thinks you're being abusive, she needs to find somebody else.

From now on, I'd use that as my stock answer to ALL demands and "requests" she makes.   8-)

She doesn't like your boundaries and the New You, who *sees* what's really going on and is determined to crush the life out of any of that newfound independence, while not only stomping on your boundaries, but obliterating them to dust while she dances on them.   >:(

Didi would often want to "stop at the store" - and we'd be in Walgreens for 4 hours, looking at the same stuff, over and over.  If I said anything about needing to leave, she'd bark, "Don't RUSH me!" in an imperious tone and add at least another half hour, to teach me who was in charge.   :roll:

This was a constant theme throughout her life - not just with me.  With unNPD Ray and people she was paying to drive her to and from work - she treated them ALL like that.

My solution was NO visits to any stores unless she cleared it with me ahead of time - which she wouldn't because I might say no.

So I said, "I can't do that.  I told you - you need to make sure I don't have to be anywhere and ask ahead of time."

She'd pout and I'd ignore her and pretend everything was LOVELY!   :evil2:

One time, the frail, little old lady race-walked down to the drug store on the corner and stood there defiantly, expecting me to pull into a parking spot.

Instead, I pulled up to the store, opened the passenger door and said, "Get in or call a cab."

She could barely hold herself up on her cane as she creaked, groaned and huffed and puffed the six or so feet to my car, making SURE others saw it.

I was beyond caring at that point - and I ignored what I called her "performance art" (the Great Big Show-Stopping Pout and Sulk) as I drove her home.   :ninja:

As for her "saving you time" doing it herself and *not having you do it the next day" - rubbish.  It's a punishment, either way.  You either wait for her or get to do it for her and bring it back to her, so she can berate you and ABUSE YOU.

YOU are not the abusive one.  You raised your voice.  It happens.   I raised my voice when I told Didi to NOT threaten suicide again or she'd be explaining it to the nice young men in their clean white coats before they came to take her away, hah-ha!

(Does anybody remember that song, or am I dating myself?   :bigwink:)

And I promise everything she said about "people" in the store was a bald-faced lie, to make herself a *victim.*

Nobody heard squat.  Nobody cared.  Nobody did a thing except fax her stuff after she finally got around to doing it after looking at every single item in the Mailbox Store at least once.

About impersonating you to a doctor - well, first, NEVER tell her who your doctors are - and call them to tell them the TRUTH - your mother threatened to impersonate you on the phone *because she is mentally ill and getting worse*, so from now on, if anybody calls and wants to talk about your confidential medical files, they are to CALL YOU BACK at YOUR number(s) - and NOT the number given by the caller.

You can also ask to password protect your information.  Use something she'd *never* figure out.  Avoid her maiden name, your first pet's name, the names of your kids - you get the idea.   :)

I like  personal mnemonics:

Desmond Cat is 1 Little Purr Box of Delight.

Password:  DC1LPBD

*Not a real password for anything - just throwing out ideas.   And he's on my lap, being just that.   :cloud9:

Make it something you can remember easily.

She's getting desperate - you're a malfunctioning vacuum cleaner.  She's whacking you on the floor repeatedly, trying to get you to work again.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - and it's working less and less.

You're pulling away - and it's time to work on detaching from her and getting some breathing room.

Please send the text Moglow suggested and watch how fast one of her pets has an "emergency."   :roll:

Ignore it - or send the same text and block her number for a few days, a week, a month - hell, the rest of your life!

You deserve better than this, Jenn.   :yes:

 :hug:
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: FromTheSwamp on October 13, 2017, 03:59:17 AM
I have to agree with everyone that you need to tell your mother that she needs to make other arrangements for transportation, for her upcoming surgery and otherwise.  I'd just tell her that, straight out. 

She is a danger to you. 

When she asks why, I'd say something along the lines of, "This isn't working.  I'm sure you'll figure something else out.  I have to go."  And then hang the hell up. 
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: Fightsong on October 13, 2017, 05:35:06 AM
Jenn. Get out. Go, run, She sure doesn't like the change in your behaviors does she??  Turn her raging nonsense back into a reason to strengthen your individuation and your boundaries. If you are abusive then surely she will need /want / welcome the distance right? So tell her so. People are not allowed to behave like that and get away with it in 'healthy' relationships. You gotta go baby.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: Blueskies on October 13, 2017, 06:39:27 AM
This is seriously abusive behaviour in my opinion. How dare she call you an 'F...ing sociopath'!

And the threatening to call all the doctors surgeries and pretend to be you to get your information is not 'weird' it's seriously illegal!!!! I would speak to your doctor's surgery and check their policy on giving personal medical info over the phone. If necessary tell them what has happened and make sure you are safe.

Your M sounds out of control. She is projecting onto you - the abuse stuff. It's what people with PD do.

And your posts are not 'endless drivel'. Please don't be self-deprecating - you are going through hell with this woman.

Please look after yourself - her wanting to impersonate you with your GP is not 'weird', it's absolutely illegal for good reason. She does not sound well.

Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: jennsc85 on October 13, 2017, 08:06:03 AM

Guilt and obligation run deep and are hard masters. Only you can decide when enough's enough, when it's time for you to step back and let her sleep in the bed she's made for herself. Me? I wouldn't get into a car with someone I'd "checked off" as a sociopath, and I doubt I'd let her forget that for a while. Maybe she needs to be reminded that you both have choices here, and you have repeatedly stepped up regardless of how badly you've been treated.

This is so true. I just wonder when enough will really be enough. Her words don't affect me like they used to. Calling me a sociopath doesn't hurt me. But the whole experience of being trapped in a car with her while she rages at me... it does something to me. It wears me down more and more each time she does it. But, I feel like compared to some of the things she's done in my life, her short car rages aren't really "that bad." I've always said that if she were to physically assault me that would be the end of everything, and I find myself wishing that she'd slap me in the face again so I would have a solid reason to stop with everything. That's ridiculous sounding, isn't it? Also, she just doesn't think that she's treating me badly. I've told her before and it always comes back to being my fault. Even when she slapped me in the face 3 years ago. I "drove" her to that. And she says this stuff so much that I question everything I've done. I think that's her goal and it always works.


Woman Interrupted- This: "Didi would often want to "stop at the store" - and we'd be in Walgreens for 4 hours, looking at the same stuff, over and over.  If I said anything about needing to leave, she'd bark, "Don't RUSH me!" in an imperious tone and add at least another half hour, to teach me who was in charge."

THIS IS MY MOTHER! I have always felt like her taking so long at these "quick stops" is her way to assert herself. Like, I can make Jenn stop at the store. Once I'm here she's not going to leave me. I'll see how long I can take and if she gets upset I'll cry and throw a fit. She may not even have this thought pattern but it feels like that and that's why it bothers me so much. She always asks if I'd get upset if someone else was taking too long in a store and my answer (in my head) is no, because I don't downright despise anyone else the way I do her (and if I did I wouldn't be giving them rides!!) Also, I like the idea of password protecting my information with doctors. She says that her voice sounds like mine on the phone and that she could easily get my information. She was able to sit down with a banker one time acting as though she was me, so I have no doubt that she could do it over the phone. She knows a couple of my doctors  and I've signed forms that only I can access my information, but I feel like she's just convincing enough that she could find a way if she wanted to. And when she's bored, she LIVES for that kind of stuff.

And the way she said it- about impersonating me- she said it like it was funny. Like, our voices sound SO much alike that she could act like she was me and no one would ever know! Ha ha ha. But I know she's serious. She does things like that all the time like, "Oh honey, you'll be taking care of me til I'm 105 if Medicaid goes away! Ha ha ha!" But she thinks she's serious. And if I try to call her on any of that she gets offended because it was obviously only supposed to be  a "ha ha ha."
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: moglow on October 13, 2017, 08:51:01 AM
Jenn. It's not funny to anyone but her and it IS abuse. Just because she's not putting her hands on you doesn't diminish what she's doing. I understand, really, I've said the same about mine - until I realized that I was excusing it in my mind, just like she does. Emotional, verbal, and psychological abuse leave scars too, scars that are hidden but eat away at us until we doubt everything we think or do. Yeah, kinda like you're doing now.

Just so you know, mine pushed that little envelope on my brother - the physical abuse - until he reacted. Mother got up in his face yelling and sniping, he backed off, and she kept on (with him physically moving back while she continued) until she got really mad and slapped him. At that point he grabbed her arms, steered her backwards to and shoved her out the door, then slammed it in her face.

Mother took pictures of the resulting bruises, showed them around town and claimed elder abuse and "I'm afraid of what he'll do next." AFTER she had told me what really happened. Yep, she embellished her story later, left out the part about her slapping him and him removing her from his home, and became the abused victim. She never pressed charges, but she proved her point. She can't be trusted and will stop at nothing for attention.

My point - You don't know what she'll do really, how desperate she'll get for attention. If she'll sit in your car and scream at you, call you names, threaten to impersonate you to doctors to get information, etc, you don't really know what she'll do or when.

Seriously - limit the information you give her. "I'm just not feeling well and don't want to discuss this" is a perfectly reasonable response, then you *don't discuss it further*. You can end the conversation or leave. She starts berating you in your car? Open her door and tell her to get the hell out. If she won't, YOU get out and call a cab, taking your keys with you. She can sit there a while. And next time -next several times actually- she can arrange other transport.

You decide, but really, this is way over the top.
Y'all need boundaries here before somebody snaps. And it might not be her next time. Don't do that to yourself.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: Blueskies on October 13, 2017, 09:06:46 AM
It sounds like your self protection boundary is currently drawn at physical abuse. Psychological abuse can be just as damaging. The stress can be damaging to your health - physical as well as mental. My uBPM doesn't hit me, she doesn't even rage at me, but the abuse is unbearable. It consists of her treating me like an object and trying to control my life, my feelings, my thoughts, as well as telling other people I am mentally ill. For me it causes severe panic attacks, nightmares and depression. It sounds like you have a lot of self doubt, both about your behaviour and about how bad hers is and your reaction to it.

When she impersonated you to the bank, that was illegal.  When she rages at you in a confined space, or at all, that is abuse, and you are at risk of developing cPTSD. Her behaviour isn't safe.. It is alright to say no to it or to put down boundaries. She will not approve, she will try to make you feel like you are abusive or mad.

I'm so sorry for what you are going through. Don't worry about what other people think is abuse, look at what feels like abuse to you.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: VividImagination on October 13, 2017, 09:17:52 AM
It won't stop until you stop it. You get to decide how long the prison sentence lasts.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: practical on October 13, 2017, 09:22:55 AM
Quote
I've always said that if she were to physically assault me that would be the end of everything, and I find myself wishing that she'd slap me in the face again so I would have a solid reason to stop with everything. That's ridiculous sounding, isn't it? Also, she just doesn't think that she's treating me badly. I've told her before and it always comes back to being my fault. Even when she slapped me in the face 3 years ago. I "drove" her to that. And she says this stuff so much that I question everything I've done. I think that's her goal and it always works.
These are the thoughts of somebody who has been severely abused, who has formed trauma bonds. She already hit you, even if it is 3 years ago, isn't that enough? Do you need proof by her hitting you again? And what about all the other abuse? What you write is no different from women or men in domestic violence situations - and yes, for me domestic violence includes verbal, emotional, psychological abuse -. She so abused you that your sense of what is right and wrong when it comes to her is all screwed up. Her excuse "you drove me to it" is the classic excuse of abusers, and it is wrong, you didn't do anything to make her abuse you, it is her choice to abuse you and she gets something out of it, sense of power whatever, it is sick! It is the ultimate in gas lighting!

I might have posted this link before in one of your threads, anyway this is really helpful to understand the damage emotional abuse does:
http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=13369.0

These are two videos that might help you understand what is going on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdoGfLL3Jio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-HjeIkoNWA

For the sake of maybe clarifying this situation in your mind, imagine she isn't your mother but your partner. What would you do then? Would you tolerate her behavior without drawing consequences? Her being your mother doesn't allow her any behavior you wouldn't allow a partner, as a matter of fact it makes her behavior worse as she is supposed to love you unconditionally.

I also have a suggestion, try to find some time this weekend and write a Personal Bill of Rights. Here are some examples:
http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=66946.0
http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=48132.msg432372#msg432372
http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=15919.msg148758#msg148758
http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=29083.msg271520#msg271520

A question and you don't have to answer, are seeing a T? If not you may consider it and maybe look for somebody who has experience with abuse, domestic violence, and personality disorders. Reach out for any help you can get.

And I agree with others, your M isn't likening the boundaries you have set, so she is pushing back hard. I went through this with my F, he did not like his malfunctioning dutiful daughter and it got really ugly. I stuck to my boundaries and the result was he drove me further away with his behavior. You might enter a phase or already be in it where this gets worse, so please reinforce your boundaries. I had a list of single sentence, non-committal, basically empty answers I could fall back on whatever F threw at me. If at all possible, try to lower contact, give yourself days off from her, because with this barrage, how can you even hear what you are thinking, feeling? You need some space to sort yourself out.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: wisingup on October 13, 2017, 10:28:17 AM
Jenn - wow, your mom is really extreme and overt with her abuse of you.  I can hear how you are struggling to be kind & not abandon her, but I think you are taking too much damage in that process.  I feel like you would be fully justified in telling her "I'm done - you've used me up & broken me.  I'm taking (X amount of time, or forever) to heal." 

This is where I'm at with my own mom, who is much more waify and covert than yours.  And it has been hard.  I constantly wonder about whether she is able to deal with her endless problems, whether she is considering self-harm, who she is using/abusing in my place.  But oh my goodness the return of my own self & the reduction in anxiety & the reduction in unpleasant interactions has been priceless.  So many of my interactions with her were intended to keep me in my place, keep me from feeling too good about myself or my life, keep me worried and upset about her life, and keep me from giving equal time and attention to the people who really deserved it, thereby damaging my relationships with them & keeping me more tied to her.

We're here for you Jenn.  Keep strong & start to do things where you and your family are the priority.  You deserve it, they deserve it.  She will be OK, or she won't, but you've done way more than enough.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: daughter on October 13, 2017, 11:01:00 AM
I experienced many similar Bad Behavior episodes, where NBM and/or NF behaved rudely, expected me to obey and oblige their expectations and demands, spoke in a disrespectful and disdainful manner towards me, only to then project their narcissistic behaviors on ME, so as to complain to me that I wasn't "doing enough", that I wasn't "compliant enough", that I wasn't "performing with a big smile on my face".  Yes, these are examples of "invalidation", of "projection", of "gas-lighting", of fundamental disrespect of us as individuals. It demonstrates a disregard for their adult-children's own needs and priorities, in their "me first - I'm Number One, the most important person", as well as the familiar "I can say and do whatever I want; your job is to obey and oblige me".  Good that you recognize this.  Good that you're now OOTF.

I was once that obedient "dutiful daughter/good girl", who tolerated a great deal of disdain, disregard, and plain old bad behavior from my own parents.  NBM was often openly malevolent towards me, blatantly disdainful and disfavoring.  (Enabler-enforcer NF was manipulative and deceitful, furtive and blame-shifting.)  I was terrified of my parents' expressed disappointment in me, which often surfaced unexpectedly, sometimes when least expected but always with emotionally-abusive words and intentionally hurtful statements expressed.  I was both OOTF and still fully compliant, if that makes sense, because of their volatility and immediate need to censure me for the slightest implied dissent.  "Talking it out" was impossible, because such discussions immediately deteriorated into them rebuking ME for "hurting their feelings", for "not being available enough" (as if 24/7 access to my home, daily calls and visits, zero personal space, "weren't enough"), for "being a difficult person".  Yes, NBM often berated me for "being abusive" towards her.  These are the reasons I finally chose to be NC, because there was no otherwise viable option left for me that didn't require me to be a passive self-effacing servile Scapegoat to both my parents' emotional abuse, their expressed rage, their dysfunctional need for absolute control and total obedience to their whims and follies.

You say you feel "defeated" by your mother.  But that's because you're still abiding by her obviously unfair rules.  Note, you've ability to "stop playing along".  Unfortunately your mother's still experiencing good results from her bad behavior.  You seem to accommodate her bad behavior without causing consequences.  So for instance, next time she's unpleasant, flag it to her - "you're being unpleasant; I'm leaving now", leave, and give her a two-day minimum time-out, no calls or visits or errands.  And limit your errand-running, your appointment attendance et al, to once-a-week, even if it's inconvenient for your mother.  Her inconvenience actually isn't your legitimate problem, or your fault.  Repeat - yes, her relative inconvenience doesn't meant that you don't love her, or that you're now a bad daughter.  You're simply exercising better time-management, and curtailing your defacto 2nd job as your mother's butler-housekeeper-aide.  I'd also begin to automatically suggest a move to senior housing, because of the associated services, or a home-care worker, whenever she begins to grouse about you again.   

Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: carrots on October 13, 2017, 12:35:17 PM
It's neither abusive nor punishment if you take a large step back from the steam roller she's running here. Sometimes self preservation needs to take priority.

 :yeahthat:

jenn, your M is the one who is being abusive, to the nth degree.

I suffered emotional, verbal, psychological abuse growing up and it leads to this constantly questioning yourself. And not believing yourself. And thinking you're not suffering enough. And all that. Psychological abuse is abuse. You don't need to wait for her to hit you, again.

I would never have got to where I am today in setting limits and standing up for myself without therapy. Is there any kind of help you could get outside the forum? I don't mean you shouldn't post here and I don't think you're writing drivel at all! You are calling out for help the best place you can, but it sounds to me as if you could do with someone IRL to help out too.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: practical on October 13, 2017, 12:57:53 PM

Quote
I've always said that if she were to physically assault me that would be the end of everything, and I find myself wishing that she'd slap me in the face again so I would have a solid reason to stop with everything. That's ridiculous sounding, isn't it? Also, she just doesn't think that she's treating me badly. I've told her before and it always comes back to being my fault. Even when she slapped me in the face 3 years ago. I "drove" her to that. And she says this stuff so much that I question everything I've done. I think that's her goal and it always works.

Could it be that this is a part of a narrative she has established, how good you have it because she "never" hit you growing up (sweeping under the rug occasions where she may have)? That therefore you have no right to complain about how she treats you, because she is a good parent, she isn't one of those who hit their children.

I understand the thought about being hit again, it is like a physical bruise would be proof of what she is doing to you. But would it be enough or would you then excuse it with "it's only a bruise, it will go away, it is not like she hit me so hard she broke a bone or I had to go to the ER" and so now you would wait till she does something where you have to see a doctor (again this would sadly be common behavior for abuse victims).

Another question, are you buying into the societal idea that abuse only counts when it is physical, whether it be hitting or physical neglect? Do you feel if she hits you again, you have something to say to outsiders and they won't question your decision to go for a Time Out with your M, cease to be her whipping girl.

Quote
So today I pick her up from an appointment (that's how all my situations seem to start, isn't it?)
If you reread this sentence the single best thing you can do for yourself is not to get in these situations again, it is as if you are voluntarily entering your jailers cell for more abuse. Yes, it is your car, but she turns it into a torture chamber every time. Take driving her out of the equation and your life might start to get better. And no, it doesn't matter that she has phobias, doesn't have the money, or whatever, she has abused her privileges, and in the real world those disappear then as a consequence. (Ask any 5 year old who went against their parents wishes like coming home to late from playing outside and lost those privileges as a consequence.)

It won't stop until you stop it. You get to decide how long the prison sentence lasts.
:yeahthat:
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: SunnyMeadow on October 13, 2017, 01:09:03 PM
You were not abusive, not at all. She was interfering with picking up your daughter on time, I wouldn't put up with that either!

Would you say or do any of these things to your children? Of course you wouldn't. It's your mom who is the abusive one. Calling you a "f'ing sociopath".... I can't imagine saying that to my daughter and all because she wasn't getting her way.  :sadno:

You are perfectly justified in Dropping the Rope. Be done with her, she wants to damage and harm you. You have a life to live and it doesn't need to involve her. Imagine how much happier your day to day life will be with your husband and kids without your mother causing you all this anxiety.

My life has improved by stepping back from my uNPDm. I hope you can feel the same relief. Your life will be better.

She is a danger to you. 
When she asks why, I'd say something along the lines of, "This isn't working.  I'm sure you'll figure something else out.  I have to go."  And then hang the hell up. 

 :yeahthat: This type of reply to your mother is perfect, simple and to the point. I'll add - hang the hell up and BLOCK HER NUMBER!!

Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: Terichan on October 13, 2017, 02:43:39 PM
Jenn, wow, your post about your mother's behavior just floors me. I mean, holy moly guacamole, she really went off the deep end this time, didn't she?? Telling you she was going to call doctors and pretend to be you and make appointments and stuff? And then raging at you like that, saying you're "abusive", calling you a "fucking sociopath" because you told her you had to go and pick your daughter up on time from school?? Unbelievable!!

I'm with moglow and the others, if I had someone in my life I considered an abusive fucking sociopath, someone who ticked off all the boxes proving it to boot, there would be no way I'd ever get into a car with that person again. Your poor mommy, having an abusive sociopathic daughter -- who, let's see, what did this sociopath do? Well, she drove her mother around to various errands and then *gasp* needed to pick up her own daughter from school on time, and... wait for it... said so. OH, THE HUMANITY!

The dynamic with your mother reminds me of the one with mine, where my mother was allowed to get as furious as she wanted at me, for pretty much anything (like, say, me at age 5 crying about a broken lollipop in public, oh the HORROR I put that woman through) -- she could rage, scream, hit, ignore, freak out, all of it was justified in her mind, but if I ever dared to get the tiniest bit angry at her for anything it was WWIII. So I grew up never being allowed to ever be angry at my mother. For anything. Ever.

So look at what actually happened. At the end of the day, after your mother took too long to send her fax (so YOU wouldn't have to send it later?? That's not really how life works), you were worried you'd be late picking up your child because of it, and you got a little annoyed at your mother for taking so long and raised your voice. That's it. You raised your voice to your mother. And what did SHE do? She went completely nuclear on you, raging and crying and yelling and cursing and name-calling. Totally unacceptable.

Send the text. Send it. It's not a "snarky little comment" that will only make you feel better for a moment, it would be an expression of your truth and it would help set you free from this woman. If I were you that would be the last time I EVER drove my mother ANYWHERE. In fact I stopped driving my poor poor mommy around for behavior that wasn't nearly as extreme as your mother's, I'd simply had enough. I hope you've finally had enough, I've had enough on your behalf and I've never spent one second with your mother!

Huge hugs. That experience sounds horrible, and you don't ever have to repeat it. But only you have the power to stop it, your mother is never going to change. You have to take charge of this thing, and the sooner the better.

It won't stop until you stop it. You get to decide how long the prison sentence lasts.

 :yeahthat:
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: daughterofbpd on October 13, 2017, 02:46:56 PM
I was so tempted to text her and say "Perhaps you should find someone who isn't emotionally abusive to take you to your surgery appointment in two weeks?"
I think that's a great response, actually. She is completely projecting. Also, calling around pretending to be you and making appointments on your behalf is not only inappropriate but against the law. She's way out of line, Jenn.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: stasia on October 13, 2017, 03:10:12 PM
Oh Jenn, I just want to give you a big hug. You don't deserve ANY of this. You were not abusive. You are not a sociopath. (and if you are, as your M thinks - why the hell does she want you to keep helping her?!) We all raise our voices sometimes. It's OK to be angry. It sounds like you raised your voice because you'd tried other things first and your M was simply ignoring you and not listening. That's not abuse.

I get it - my M also told me she was going to report me for elder abuse when I raised my voice while telling her that she couldn't continue to lie on the floor, but needed to allow me to call 911 and get her medical treatment!

I also have often wished that my M would just hit me, because then I'd have a "good reason" for getting away from her, that others (doctors, social workers, everyone else in the world who was demanding that I be her sole caregiver and emotional support system) would understand. But as everyone else has said, verbal and emotional abuse is abuse too, and you don't have to put up with it. And, when I thought about that further, I realized that even if she did hit me, there would STILL be people who judged me for cutting her off because she's elderly and sooooooo helpless.  :stars:

So, I've been NC (or on a reeeeeeally long time out) for a couple months now. And I admit I feel guilty about it Every Single Day - but my life now is more peaceful without the incessant waifing and demands in my ear. I didn't think I could do it either, because my M doesn't have anyone else and I figured her need to get basic life stuff done was more important than my own mental health. And because I was still terrified of the social workers coming after me and charging me with neglect, if I'm being totally honest. But it's NOT true. My mental health is important. YOUR mental health is important! You don't have to accept this kind of treatment even if she is your mother. (I like the comment upthread about, what if your husband were talking to you like this and calling you an effing sociopath? Would you say that to your own kid? Why do we always take this sort of treatment from our parents when we wouldn't accept it in someone else?)

Anyway, I agree with the others here, that this is an excellent time to drop the rope, and I absolutely WOULD send that text (and then block her). Right now your M isn't seeing any consequences for her bad behavior, and I think it is high time she did.

I also agree that you need to somehow password-protect your medical records in case your M calls your doctor pretending to be you. Thinking about that more, though.... how does she think this is going to work? Call up doctor after doctor and say, "Hi, this is Jenn Lastname, can you tell me if I am a patient there?" until she comes across yours? I would think the staff would get a little suspicious at that.... :) (though I also understand a PD parent's ability to fool people sometimes.)
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: bopper on October 13, 2017, 03:35:00 PM
Yes, it was abusive. Terrible terrible abuse. So abusive that you should not be around her anymore or help her :) :) :)
 
"Mom,you need to find some other methods of transportation besides me.  You tell me that something will be quick but inevitably it takes 3 times as long as your estimate.  With having to pick up the kids, this isn't working for me.  The ABC taxi company gets good reviews and also you can contact the Senior Transport for free rides. I think this will work out better for you."

"no it won't,...don't you love me?"

"You called me abusive, so I want to give you space so neither of us will get into that situation anymore. You will be able to take as much time as you need with these other methods and the kids will get picked up on time. Win-win."
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: all4peace on October 13, 2017, 04:02:09 PM
jenn, an interesting article for you to read about "victimized" narcissists: https://graceformyheart.wordpress.com/2015/03/13/victimized-narcissists/
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: jennsc85 on October 14, 2017, 05:23:04 PM
Another question, are you buying into the societal idea that abuse only counts when it is physical, whether it be hitting or physical neglect? Do you feel if she hits you again, you have something to say to outsiders and they won't question your decision to go for a Time Out with your M, cease to be her whipping girl.

I think this is it exactly. She's been physically abusive to me a handful of times in my life, but it pales in comparison to her rages, tantrums, verbal, emotional, etc. abuse. I've only recently let myself accept that the things she's done and said are abusive. I guess I feel like outsiders understand physical abuse. If I say that my mother slapped me in the face in front of my child or dislocated my thumb by bending it back, they gasp and are horrified. If I tell them that she went on a 30 minute tirade about how ugly I am or called me a sociopath or any number of other things she's said... it just doesn't seem as bad, you know? But really, the verbal and emotional things she's done have bothered me WAY more than any of the physical things. It just seems like that's a more appropriate boundary to have. I don't know why I feel that because I know it's not necessarily true.



She actually texted me the day after all this happened and apologized and said she didn't mean to upset me and asked if I'd like for her to cook me a meal. I know that's because she's thinking about her upcoming surgery and all the things I'm going to have to do for her. She texted me today about all these little errands she needs to run and her usual stuff about "Having an elderly parent is not convenient!" and "Sorry, but euthanizing your elderly parent for being annoying isn't legal yet!" and "Can you imagine if I had cancer? You'd be on a leave from work and waiting on me constantly!"

When she says stuff like this, it makes me want to run 500 miles away from her. I hate it. All her caregiver crap makes me so angry. I AM NOT HER CAREGIVER. It doesn't matter how many times I tell her this, she still says things like this ALL THE TIME and it makes me so so so angry. I would rather sit in a jail cell than be her caregiver. If she gets cancer and needs 24/7 care (which she would LOVE) I don't even know what I would do.

Anyways, I texted her and it's really hard for me to say things like this and I think she knows it. I told her basically "Mom, I am not threatening to withhold help here but I feel like it needs to be said... you cannot continue to call me names, say that I'm a sociopath, mentally ill, rant and rave about how heartless and awful I am... then expect me to help you at every turn. If I had just called someone a sociopath among other things I wouldn't be asking them for help three days later. It just doesn't make sense."

Basically, she acted like I was a 4 year old stomping her foot and saying that I wanted a cookie or something. She says "Honey, you're getting way too deep for me. You're talking about things that have happened a long time ago. I've offered for us to go to a therapist many times and you don't want to. Just drop it until after the surgery OK?"

I feel like that was so condescending of her! Like, everything I said was just fluff to her.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: eternallystuck on October 14, 2017, 06:38:05 PM
The dynamic with your mother reminds me of the one with mine, where my mother was allowed to get as furious as she wanted at me, for pretty much anything (like, say, me at age 5 crying about a broken lollipop in public, oh the HORROR I put that woman through) -- she could rage, scream, hit, ignore, freak out, all of it was justified in her mind, but if I ever dared to get the tiniest bit angry at her for anything it was WWIII. So I grew up never being allowed to ever be angry at my mother. For anything. Ever.

Oh my goodness you just described my lifelong relationship with my M. It makes me want to burst into hysterics at the sheer hypocrisy & self righteousness on her! My m thinks its perfectly ok to launch into an abusive RAGE atme for not putting a jar back correctly (THE AUDACITY! What a HORRID daughter) yet her making me homeless,,, Oh no I'm not allowed to be angry at that or my own ww3 commences too. In fact I 'chose' to be homeless. Under the rug, bobs your uncle!
[/quote]
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: eternallystuck on October 14, 2017, 06:52:28 PM
Quote
I don't know if this is a PD parent thing or just something unique to my mother but literally EVERYTHING that she does takes FOREVER and it's always someone/something else's fault. A "quick trip" into the grocery store to get a bunch of bananas that she promises will only take two minutes turns into a 30 minute ordeal

I believe so! It frustrates the hell out of me. My day feels so dragged out whenever I'm around my PD M. For example, if she leaves the car to get petrol & id ask her to get me a drink whilst shes there she will 'forget' then start flapping about how its becos she almost lost her purse, petrols gone up etc etc. One cannot simply get the petrol, drink & return to the car without this dialogue. ALSO you will wait ages for her to be ready then she will snap she's going to be late & have her screaming at you rushing out with one shoe on.

 I believe there's 3 reasons for this. One- I believe simple tasks take them longer as they are somewhat neurotic & avoid logical thinking (very chaotic muddled people). Two- at times I believe it is about control. 'I'll take as long as I want, I'm doing YOU a favour!' (this is an attention seeking game). Three- histrionics, every little trivial detail to normal people is cultivated into some kind of pressing drama that delayed them & evokes guilt in you.

To me it sounds like you were just frustrated with her usual antics making you late. Its totally normal to get stressed when you need to take your child to school. With these people small tasks bring out great frustration and anger because they are not considerate logical people. I would try your best to avoid being near her when you're under time constraints
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: Dinah-sore on October 14, 2017, 07:22:50 PM
I am so sorry that you went through this Jenn. I read your post and all the really good comments.

I just wanted to share that I can relate, and that you are NOT abusing her. Like it was said she is grossly abusing you and trying to get you to doubt your own perceptions, and it can work, because we are so used to it that it is so hard to figure out. But you have done a really good job of explaining yourself and you see the truth.

I know you mentioned health problems, and her behavior towards you will most likely make you feel worse. I know that extreme stress like this exacerbates my own symptoms. So please unplug, do self care, be kind to yourself. You truly deserve some TLC. Best wishes.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: practical on October 14, 2017, 11:47:32 PM
She actually texted me the day after all this happened and apologized and said she didn't mean to upset me and asked if I'd like for her to cook me a meal. I know that's because she's thinking about her upcoming surgery and all the things I'm going to have to do for her. She texted me today about all these little errands she needs to run and her usual stuff about "Having an elderly parent is not convenient!" and "Sorry, but euthanizing your elderly parent for being annoying isn't legal yet!" and "Can you imagine if I had cancer? You'd be on a leave from work and waiting on me constantly!"

When she says stuff like this, it makes me want to run 500 miles away from her. I hate it. All her caregiver crap makes me so angry. I AM NOT HER CAREGIVER. It doesn't matter how many times I tell her this, she still says things like this ALL THE TIME and it makes me so so so angry. I would rather sit in a jail cell than be her caregiver. If she gets cancer and needs 24/7 care (which she would LOVE) I don't even know what I would do.
Just FYI, this is all emotional abuse: the "teasing", sarcasm, the cutsiness, suggesting you want her dead, the ignoring your kind request to not say anything like it. And if she had cancer 24/7, you would buy the biggest fence available at Home Depot for boundaries (or could move as a last resort, I always wanted to disappear into the jungle of Papua-Newguniea when it came to FOO :upsidedown: )  and like many others who simply don't have family she would figure it out, the world would neither collapse, nor come of its axis and be swallowed by a wormhole. This is something you have to assure yourself off, if you step out of her life, out of the role of being her servant, yes, her world will temporarily be worse, but the world as such will stay intact, and as your M had her parents, then your F, now you, she'll find somebody else to serve her. F did, he found himself two new people and I would never have thought so. He became quite resourceful and the pity act works really wonders in drafting new servants apparently  :roll: . This is something you might not be aware of, you are actually disposable to her. It must sound totally crazy to you given how much she depends on you for the littlest things, but you are. At least that has been my experience and that of others over at the Elderly Parents board. If you had told me two years ago my F would have replaced me, I would have told you you are crazy, no way, but he did once I started to malfunction. I was no better than a broken toaster for $10. Sure, he hit me a few times to see whether I would work again, but when I didn't, he replaced me. You are asking her to be nice, you are reasoning with her, but so far for her there are no visible consequences to her behavior. Case in point:
Anyways, I texted her and it's really hard for me to say things like this and I think she knows it. I told her basically "Mom, I am not threatening to withhold help here but I feel like it needs to be said... you cannot continue to call me names, say that I'm a sociopath, mentally ill, rant and rave about how heartless and awful I am... then expect me to help you at every turn. If I had just called someone a sociopath among other things I wouldn't be asking them for help three days later. It just doesn't make sense."

Basically, she acted like I was a 4 year old stomping her foot and saying that I wanted a cookie or something. She says "Honey, you're getting way too deep for me. You're talking about things that have happened a long time ago. I've offered for us to go to a therapist many times and you don't want to. Just drop it until after the surgery OK?"

I feel like that was so condescending of her! Like, everything I said was just fluff to her.
And it was her who behaved again like a 4 year old, not you, and it is all fluff to her as long as there are no consequences. The first time she demands you do A, B and C for her, you say No, and then really don't show up to drive her wherever, or she abuses you and you say "I won't be driving you for the next month nor will I be talking to you, I need a Time Out" and then follow through, only then will she start thinking what you say isn't fluff. - I don't mean to sound harsh, it is something I had to learn the hard way myself. I would write endless letters to F reasoning with him, asking him to be more respectful, and he would just shrug them off, tell me not to bother him, I did it for years, till I finally got it into my brain I would have to add consequences (thanks OOTF!)  just like you do with a child, who has his time in the cookie jar for the 8th time or throws another temper tantrum. She doesn't hear your words, because she can ignore them without any detriment to her.

Another question, are you buying into the societal idea that abuse only counts when it is physical, whether it be hitting or physical neglect? Do you feel if she hits you again, you have something to say to outsiders and they won't question your decision to go for a Time Out with your M, cease to be her whipping girl.

I think this is it exactly. She's been physically abusive to me a handful of times in my life, but it pales in comparison to her rages, tantrums, verbal, emotional, etc. abuse. I've only recently let myself accept that the things she's done and said are abusive. I guess I feel like outsiders understand physical abuse. If I say that my mother slapped me in the face in front of my child or dislocated my thumb by bending it back, they gasp and are horrified. If I tell them that she went on a 30 minute tirade about how ugly I am or called me a sociopath or any number of other things she's said... it just doesn't seem as bad, you know? But really, the verbal and emotional things she's done have bothered me WAY more than any of the physical things. It just seems like that's a more appropriate boundary to have. I don't know why I feel that because I know it's not necessarily true.
Given that your M has hit you, could you use it as a crutch? You could simply say "My M is abusive" and if anybody asks - and most people won't - say "She has hit me" or imo better "This is private/a difficult/painful topic for me and I don't want to discuss it any further", because really, why should you have to JADE with acquaintances, even friends? It also closes the topic. You don't owe an explanation to anybody. Emotional, verbal abuse is abuse without bruises, it is still abuse and you don't need to specify which kind of abuse to anybody. - I think this is where the gas lighting partially comes to haunt us, when we are made to feel it is all in our head. Here is a perfect example how your M gaslights you very subtly into believing it is less than it is and makes you feel guilty for thinking it is anything: "Honey, you're getting way too deep for me. You're talking about things that have happened a long time ago. I've offered for us to go to a therapist many times and you don't want to. Just drop it until after the surgery OK?"

Quote
But really, the verbal and emotional things she's done have bothered me WAY more than any of the physical things.
You aren't alone there. Emotional, verbal abuse makes you question your reality, while you have no doubts about a bruise you have sustained. Also, I find it easier to get angry at physical abuse and it causes more of a natural defense mechanism, a fight or flight reaction that is potentially healthy. With emotional abuse this is often suppressed for me and I stay way too long in the line of fire. When you are with your M her emotional and verbal abuse is pretty constant, imagine she would physically hit you with the same frequency as she spews sentences at you, that each sentence was a hit with a baseball bat, then you might feel similar about physical abuse as you feel now about the emotional, verbal abuse. What I'm trying to get at is that her emotional and verbal abuse are constant, they are insidious in your interactions with your M, and if she would physically instead of verbally hit you with the same frequency and consistency you would long be gone. Could you try to equate her sentences in your mind with being beaten to help yourself see the dimension of what she is doing to you? So each sentence like  "Sorry, but euthanizing your elderly parent for being annoying isn't legal yet!" is another hit with the baseball bat?

Sending you strength and a :bighug:
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: FromTheSwamp on October 15, 2017, 03:31:21 AM
"Honey, you're getting way too deep for me. You're talking about things that have happened a long time ago. I've offered for us to go to a therapist many times and you don't want to. Just drop it until after the surgery OK?"

No, Mom, I'm talking about your behavior that happens every time you get in the car with me.  You need to make other arrangements for your surgery.  You have to figure this stuff out for yourself.  I don't feel safe with you in the car with me - I haven't for a long time and it's only been getting worse.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: Blueskies on October 15, 2017, 05:42:36 AM
Another question, are you buying into the societal idea that abuse only counts when it is physical, whether it be hitting or physical neglect? Do you feel if she hits you again, you have something to say to outsiders and they won't question your decision to go for a Time Out with your M, cease to be her whipping girl.

I think this is it exactly. She's been physically abusive to me a handful of times in my life, but it pales in comparison to her rages, tantrums, verbal, emotional, etc. abuse. I've only recently let myself accept that the things she's done and said are abusive. I guess I feel like outsiders understand physical abuse. If I say that my mother slapped me in the face in front of my child or dislocated my thumb by bending it back, they gasp and are horrified. If I tell them that she went on a 30 minute tirade about how ugly I am or called me a sociopath or any number of other things she's said... it just doesn't seem as bad, you know? But really, the verbal and emotional things she's done have bothered me WAY more than any of the physical things. It just seems like that's a more appropriate boundary to have. I don't know why I feel that because I know it's not necessarily true.



She actually texted me the day after all this happened and apologized and said she didn't mean to upset me and asked if I'd like for her to cook me a meal. I know that's because she's thinking about her upcoming surgery and all the things I'm going to have to do for her. She texted me today about all these little errands she needs to run and her usual stuff about "Having an elderly parent is not convenient!" and "Sorry, but euthanizing your elderly parent for being annoying isn't legal yet!" and "Can you imagine if I had cancer? You'd be on a leave from work and waiting on me constantly!"

When she says stuff like this, it makes me want to run 500 miles away from her. I hate it. All her caregiver crap makes me so angry. I AM NOT HER CAREGIVER. It doesn't matter how many times I tell her this, she still says things like this ALL THE TIME and it makes me so so so angry. I would rather sit in a jail cell than be her caregiver. If she gets cancer and needs 24/7 care (which she would LOVE) I don't even know what I would do.

Anyways, I texted her and it's really hard for me to say things like this and I think she knows it. I told her basically "Mom, I am not threatening to withhold help here but I feel like it needs to be said... you cannot continue to call me names, say that I'm a sociopath, mentally ill, rant and rave about how heartless and awful I am... then expect me to help you at every turn. If I had just called someone a sociopath among other things I wouldn't be asking them for help three days later. It just doesn't make sense."

Basically, she acted like I was a 4 year old stomping her foot and saying that I wanted a cookie or something. She says "Honey, you're getting way too deep for me. You're talking about things that have happened a long time ago. I've offered for us to go to a therapist many times and you don't want to. Just drop it until after the surgery OK?"

I feel like that was so condescending of her! Like, everything I said was just fluff to her.

First of all, her slapping you and dislocating your thumb is not just horrifying - it's assault. It would have been grounds to get the police involved and a mental health crisis team. Her calling you ugly and the verbal abuse IS horrifying. Being witnessed is a really important thing for abuse victims and traumatised people, but often we're too scared to tell anyone in case we aren't believed or people say it's not that bad and then we can get retraumatised.

This barrage of manipulation "Having an elderly parent is not convenient!" and "Sorry, but euthanizing your elderly parent for being annoying isn't legal yet!" and "Can you imagine if I had cancer? You'd be on a leave from work and waiting on me constantly!" is horrible. It's designed to get you to back down. It is one massive guilt trip, full of entitlement, expectation, and blame. She's expecting you to give up everything to care for her. That is not your legal responsibility. What's not 'convenient' is having an extremely abusive parent!!

I think your response was great. Well done for standing up for yourself. I've done this recently and also got a really patronising response as though I as a 2 year old having a tantrum.

And I'm sorry but "you cannot call me names" is not going "way too deep", even for a small child. It's about as basic as it gets. It's a very patronising way of trying to shut you up. It might help to tell her simply "If you do x, y, z again, these will be the consequences", it might make it a bit more immediate so she can't dismiss it as the distant past or too complicated for her to understand.

Someone once said to me, you have to put your own oxygen mask on first - ie you have to put yourself first. If this woman is damaging your mental health then you need to protect yourself. I came across a thing on human rights the other day and the thing that jumped out for me was "you have a right to feel safe". If you don't feel safe with someone, something needs to change. If they won't back off then you need to get away from them.


Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: Rock Chick on October 15, 2017, 06:04:04 AM
So, that's over. Then she tells me that on her way home she needs me to stop by some place for her to send a fax. I don't know if this is a PD parent thing or just something unique to my mother but literally EVERYTHING that she does takes FOREVER and it's always someone/something else's fault. A "quick trip" into the grocery store to get a bunch of bananas that she promises will only take two minutes turns into a 30 minute ordeal because she also saw such and such on sale and she couldn't go through the quick scan because blah blah blah and then there was a long line and who would have thought? and the cashier was rude so she had to complain to customer service, and can you believe...

This is what happens nearly everywhere that's supposed to be "quick."  :wacko:

Today it was sending a fax. She's in the place for over 15 minutes when I call her and ask what's going on. OH, the fax machine was broken so they're sending it on their personal fax and it's actually 8 pages instead of 4 and she had NO IDEA it would take this long. She was only trying to save me time from sending me out to do it myself... whatever.

It's def. not just your mother and as for being a PD thing I'm starting to think it is possibly a PD thing esp if with things being every time or almost every time go out. My bf's malignant bpd etc 54 yr old mother is the same way rather its running into Walgreens to pick up her prescription or stopping at Speedway for her cancer sticks and soda. She will say she will only be 2 minutes or 5 minutes but those turn into 10, 20, 30 mins. Then she will make some excuse like her card was acting up or the guy at the counter was being a jerk or how it was busy inside despite there only being maybe 2 cars in the parking lot that arent my bfs car and the employees cars. We have told her if she doesnt come out in the time she says she will only be then we will either leave her there or we wont take her for awhile. Most the time my bf holds to our words but with way she is it can be hard for him at times. She is an abusive person...physically abusive not so much its more emotional mental verbal etc abuse.

Oh pulling the Everyone Card, God/Religion card, You deserve Card that is a classic move... my bfs mother pulls the God card once and awhile then I gently remind her a few verses (or the rest of whatever line she says) n tell her I am not going to sit there and take her negativity and I leave the room. The You Deserve Card is a favorite card of hers she uses too and more frequently than the God card. Then the slamming doors how passive aggressive n childish my bfs mother does this but more with bedroom and apartment doors than car doors.

I think sometimes it bothers us when our PD person in our life rather a parent, spouse, significant other etc calls us something we are not and or accuses of something we didnt say or do. We just have to remember (although it can be hard to) that they are really talking about themselves and projecting their own stuff onto us and they live in their own lil reality/world that rarely if ever matches actual reality.  I think you not replying to her many texts was a good idea perhaps blocking her number etc so she cant call you text you email etc would be wise rather permanently or temporarily. Hopefully she will run out of fuel and wont be to continue the fire she started. I think she needs to start finding other ways to appointments etc. too. There are many services medical insurances and places offer to get seniors and disabled adults etc from home to doctors etc and back and if she isnt either then she needs to call a taxi or uber or neighbor or something. You dont deserve how she is treating you and you are NOT abusive. Having an opinion is not abusive nor raising your voice once because she isnt listening to you about needing to go cuz you have plans that are time sensitive or whatnot. She is only one that is being negative and abusive.

Hugs to you! Feel free to post anytime :)
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: VividImagination on October 15, 2017, 09:49:39 AM
She essentially told you to just shut up and forget about everything that just happened as Her Majesty has a surgery and you WILL attend her! Now stop being childish! She appears to believe that she can do and say ANYTHING she wants to you and you will still come running when she snaps her fingers.

If you don't ever walk away and force her to be independent, she never will. Why would she? Would your kids have ever learned to walk if you carried them forever?

She wants you to be the mommy, apparently...so do it. Make the giant baby grow up. She's been an infant for sixty years too long. Let her figure her own life out. She can...We all can. Having a slave to abuse while being waited on hand and foot is just WAY more fun....for her. She's made her expectations clear...you'll be wiping her butt into your own retirement.

Make yourself clear. Once she uses you up and tosses you out like your dad and grandpa, who's next? Your kids?
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: free1111 on October 15, 2017, 01:07:37 PM
I just want to echo others urging you to padsword protect your medical information. You mentioned Medicaid so it sounds like you are in the US so obviously medical practices already have confidentiality procedures but it wouldn't hurt to add something like a randomly generated set of letters and numbers your mother couldn't possibly ever guess, versus something she would know like your SSN.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: SunnyMeadow on October 15, 2017, 01:27:01 PM
Make yourself clear. Once she uses you up and tosses you out like your dad and grandpa, who's next? Your kids?

That's a terrifying thought!

Are you able to talk to your husband about all of this Jenn? I ask because I started talking and sharing how I feel about my uNPDm with my husband and he's the one who helps me talk through things when I start feel the FOG. He's been telling me things about my mom from years past that I didn't (or couldn't) see. Things like, his family all thinks my mother is an awful, mean woman but I never knew it. They acted very cordially to her for 30 years.

Only now that I'm coming Out of the FOG are people closest to me feeling like they can tell me things she's done and said throughout the years. It's been an eye opener! It explains why EVERYONE in her life has dumped her, everyone but me and my step-dad.

From her dinking around at the fax place, to calling you vile names, threatening that you have to take care of her...these are all justifiable reasons NOT to be her caretaker during her upcoming surgery. After how badly she's been treating you, she doesn't deserve your help. She doesn't care about you as a person, she cares about what she can get from you.  :no:
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: Terichan on October 15, 2017, 03:46:56 PM
I guess I feel like outsiders understand physical abuse. If I say that my mother slapped me in the face in front of my child or dislocated my thumb by bending it back, they gasp and are horrified. If I tell them that she went on a 30 minute tirade about how ugly I am or called me a sociopath or any number of other things she's said... it just doesn't seem as bad, you know? But really, the verbal and emotional things she's done have bothered me WAY more than any of the physical things. It just seems like that's a more appropriate boundary to have. I don't know why I feel that because I know it's not necessarily true.

Jenn, this part of your post stuck out to me, and I think it's because both of us were raised by PD parents. I used to have the same desire: to have other people see and understand how abusive my parents' behavior was and have other people believe me and validate me on that topic. I think it might come from our lifelong and mostly unfulfilled need for approval from others.

But a few years ago I started realizing -- what other people think about the way my parents treated me is not the important part. The important part is my parents were being abusive to ME, I was there, I experienced it, I know what they did and how it made ME feel, and that was enough. So it doesn't matter if other people don't think that your mother calling you ugly and a sociopath and all that stuff "isn't all that bad" -- it's that bad to YOU and your opinion is the one that truly matters here.

YOU get to decide what your boundaries are, you don't need to figure out what someone else would think is "appropriate". If you think setting a boundary after enduring 30 minutes of verbal and emotional abuse in the car is appropriate, then it is. End of story. You get to protect yourself from her, you don't need to wait until she physically hurts you again, and you don't need to justify yourself to anyone else. 

I also think that her blowing off everything you said in your text like it was fluff, some of it stems from the lack of you imposing consequences on her for her horrible behavior in the past, she knows she can get away with it. This "Just drop it until after the surgery" crap is more of the same, she behaved abominably and yet she still expects you to go ahead and run a bunch of errands for her and help her with this surgery anyway. Imposing consequences on her will probably mean that her behavior gets worse at first (and it may never get better), but the alternative is that you do nothing and keep exposing yourself to her abuse again and again.

SHOW her you're not her caregiver by... not being her caregiver! Let her figure out this surgery thing on her own, she doesn't deserve your help after the way she abused you, it's up to YOU to take this thing into your own hands and refuse to do stuff for her any more. Or else all you're in for is more of the same for years, possibly decades to come.

 :bighug: you're a goodhearted person and you don't deserve this.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: FromTheSwamp on October 15, 2017, 10:31:57 PM
If you help her with this surgery, there will just be something else after it.  The "emergencies" will never end. 
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: bopper on October 16, 2017, 04:32:08 PM
"Mom, you remember that when you said "Can you imagine if I had cancer? You'd be on a leave from work and waiting on me constantly!"?   I want to tell you now that no, I wouldn't be.  Leave from work means not getting paid. I will not be doing that.  This is making me wake up to the fact that you think I will set aside my life to be your full time caregiver.  I cannot do that. I will not do that. I have my own family to take care of.  Start looking into visiting nurse services. I want to be your daughter, not your nurse."
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: Medowynd on October 16, 2017, 05:11:49 PM
Jenn, it is time to let this woman go.  She is not any kind of a mother, but rather an assortment of the most evil swear words around.  I would tell her that she will need to make her own arrangements for transportation, surgery care and aftercare.  If someone spoke to your daughter this way, they wouldn't know if they were coming or going, because you would never tolerate this.

YOU HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO HER!  Just because she was the egg donor, it does not give her ownership rights to your life.  Let her make her own way.  If she is 64 she can go on early SS and will have other services available to her next year when she turns 65.  I am horrified every time I read about how evil this woman is to you.  You do not deserve it and never have.  Improve your life and remove this malevolent woman from it. 

I was VVVLC with my UNmom for many years and I learned to get over the guilt trips.  I breathed free and gave up the eggshell walking, the guilt trips that I refused to take anymore and avoided the ever constant yelling.
Title: Re: I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?
Post by: carrots on October 17, 2017, 10:34:26 AM
Jenn, not knowing you or your story too well, when I first read this " I know I reacted badly, but was it really "abusive"?" I assumed that that was something M had asked you! I thought "Wow! M's pretty far along" Of course I have since realized that's not something your M would do. Just wanted to let you know that I think the question you asked at the beginning of this is the question some of us hope our abusers / enablers might come up with (but won't of course). Idk if this makes sense to you, but it's as if you're asking the question that your M should be. More of this projection lark. Not your fault!

It also occured to me that if my sibs read all what you wrote, they'd say something like "What on earth is carrots complaining about?? Now that's a really deranged M here!" Even my M might see some of the abuse in your situation. But that possibility in no way excuses or diminishes what was done to me by M! So it's the same with physical injuries or lack thereof. You don't have to end up in hospital for them to count as abuse. They aren't even necessary at all to count as abuse and for you to have a reason to set a very definite limit! I know others have posted that, but sometimes I find it useful myself when more than one person tells me that my FOO is out of line. So maybe you will too.