(This could go in Working on Us, or PD ILs or here, if mods don't think this is in the correct place.)
I've been hearing this from my T, my healer friends, from people on this forum: Listen to your body. Your body tells you the truth.
I spent more than 20 years not listening to my body, thinking that pain was something to endure (both physical and emotional), that terror was something to be conquered. I worked very, very hard to ignore my body. Until my body started sending me signals so strong even I couldn't ignore them. After my first hospitalization, I started examining WHY I worked so hard to ignore pain, to my own self-harm, WHY I was spending time with someone who caused me such tremendous anxiety that half of every week (before and after our weekly encounters) I had chest pain so tight and intense that the only way to relieve it was to get DH to push very hard on my back and chest simultaneously. Why I continued to try to push myself into contact with this person despite needing vigorous exercise, and deep breathing to try to get on top of the anxiety, and even then once had a spontaneous nosebleed right before I saw them?
So now I'm trying to listen to what my body says.
But here's the problem: With likely CPTSD, our bodies are also trained to react. And we may have developed patterns that are overreactive. We may actually need to learn to calm our responses wayyyyyy down. We may need to learn to teach our bodies that we get to be in control, that we will keep ourselves safe, that we don't have to have contact with someone if we don't want to.
My question is, how do I honor my body's wisdom while simultaneously understanding that it may be reacting more than it needs to? I want to trust it, but I'm not sure how to.
When I am startled by my parents or ILs presence, my heart lurches so badly I can feel it, everything in me goes weak, I have a hard time breathing for a little while, my guts let me know they are unhappy. It's a total stress response. Do I listen to that and never have contact again? Or do I learn to calm that down, go for very short contacts or very protected?
I'd love to hear what you've all figured out!
Hi all4peace, I've been thinking about this also and am happy to reflect on my experiences. I don't fight the somatic responses that I experience but instead try to have an awareness of my body and the emotions that I'm feeling. Ultimately, I don't want to keep the trauma in my body but let it flow out - as much as possible. I've had success with that - with guidance, practice and time. It does work.
But, as you point out to some extent, the crux of my problem is that I live in a high stress environment because of my exNPD/HPD. I've been able to put up some pretty strong boundaries - including no contact, permanent protection orders, batting down many flying monkeys, etc.
What I want to do is put down my defenses so that I'm not living on edge, with anxiety.
The drawback to putting down my defenses, based on hard learned experiences, is that can make me vulnerable to my ex's shenanigans down the road. It won't be next week, probably not next month. But the story isn't over.
I've reached a point personally that my defenses are lowering, I must as I have a child, also with CPTSD, living in this high stress environment too. I will keep aware of my vulnerabilities and remind myself if/when the time comes of the danger that comes with a relationship involving ex. But for now, for the sake of my self care, and care of my son, my approach is to let as much go as possible - when (and only if) it is safe to put down the defenses. Safety - internal, emotional/external, physical - comes first. But self care isn't far behind. Healing and releasing trauma is key to me.
Sounds like a question to work out in therapy. I also have cPTSD. I can't even speak to my M. I won't put myself through that. I tried to keep in contact by email but she kept attacking me so I stopped. I know one day I'll try and have some help with the trauma.
Usually the sooner I listen to my body, the sooner I feel calm. If I try and push past whatever my body doesn't want to do then I'll have a much more extreme reaction. I think the quicker you can interpret an emotion, the more your reactions might settle down. Your inner child has to learn to trust that you will listen. So if a family member says something disrespectful to you and you feel anger or panic but try and squash it down in order not to create a fuss then maybe it'll turn into a huge reaction. That's not your body overreacting - that's your body trying to get your attention because you didn't listen when the feeling began and was less intense.
Also look at the internalised messages that get you to ignore you body - all the dismissive thoughts you may have internalised from your FOO. Write them down, get familiar with them so if one comes up it's a red flag and you can stop and see what's going on. I would have some distance from them or see them in very small doses while you get to know yourself. Maybe if something happens or is said that causes a reaction, you can have things that you do or say to protect yourself - ie put down a boundary. I find establishing boundaries is the only thing that stops the panic - feeling like I'm not allowed to say 'no' or protect myself causes panic, which is not surprising.
Quote from: all4peace on October 26, 2017, 09:56:43 AM
When I am startled by my parents or ILs presence, my heart lurches so badly I can feel it, everything in me goes weak, I have a hard time breathing for a little while, my guts let me know they are unhappy. It's a total stress response. Do I listen to that and never have contact again? Or do I learn to calm that down, go for very short contacts or very protected?
I have similar physical reactions to contact with M; it's what finally spurred me to go NC or take a long time out or whatever it is I'm doing right now. I've been thinking about this a lot lately and talking about it some in T as well.
Here's the thing: I ask myself WHY do I (and you) want to calm my reaction? For myself, because it doesn't feel good? Or so that I'm able to have contact with M again without having panic attacks and otherwise freaking out?
If it's the latter: WHY do I want to have contact with M? Answer: I don't. That is what SHE wants, and I am not her. That is what society expects of me because I am an only child and my mother has no one else in her life. I'd be quite happy never having to talk to her again, but I still get waves of guilt over how sad she must be that she doesn't have me in her life any more, and what kind of horrible person does that to their poor abused elderly widowed mother who clearly is too anxious to function in normal life.
So I guess for me, "listen to my body" is shorthand for "it's OK to make choices that are right for me even if they upset other people" and "don't make decisions based on FOG." If that makes sense at all. I don't know; honestly I'm still muddling through a lot of this. I just know I don't ever want to experience another one of those shaking, crying, numb-hands-and-arms, can't-catch-breath panic attacks in response to M.
(Note, this carries over into other aspects of my life, I'm discovering. I had an acquaintance stomp a boundary recently (though I don't think she is PD) and I was able to say no and remove myself, where the past me would've stayed quiet and done what she wanted. My body had a "nope!" reaction - not a panic attack, but just that "I don't like this" pit in the stomach - and I was able to listen to that and do what's right for me. Progress!)
I don't know if this is helpful for you, but I find yoga helps, and meditating/mindfulness. There are a number of great, free apps to help with the latter (I like Chill, One Moment Meditation, and Stop Breathe and Think). I'm by no means perfectly relaxed (!), but I find these strategies help, even some days if just in the moment that I'm employing them (which is better than nothing).
I think there is a difference between when it is time to listen to our bodies and when it is time to exercise control over our bodies. Many eastern philosophies talk about the mind's ability to control the body. ALL4peace, it seems you are talking about a stress response your body is experiencing, the old fight or flight response. In this case my response would be to work on retraining my mind to calm down and minimize the stress response.
I agree when you say, "With likely CPTSD, our bodies are also trained to react. And we may have developed patterns that are overreactive. We may actually need to learn to calm our responses wayyyyyy down." I think though it is not our bodies we need to calm down but our minds. It is the mind's perception of the threat that stimulates our physiological responses.
So yes, I like meditation, imagery, focusing on breathing, mindfulness, positive self talk, whatever strategy that works for that person, as a way to calm the "monkey mind" as the Chinese say, and minimize the physical responses.
That said, to avoid the stress response and the harmful effects that has on our bodies, we may have to limit contact with the stressor until we have developed more skills. It is a personal thing and I think different for each of us. Just my 2 cents. Hope this helps.
Body awareness and labelling.
When you realize that you are not feeling comfortable - work out where in the body you are feeling it.
e.g.: You're in a situation when suddenly you say to yourself :
"Uh oh, I'm feeling really shitty right now, can't breathe. There's pain. WTF? Head is spinning."
Stop and work out what sensations you are feeling. Tell them to yourself.
e.g.: Yup, My hands are sweaty. My stomach muscles are tense. I feel heat behind my eyes. I have pain in my lower back.
Already, you are separating yourself from the anxiety by just labelling the sensation. Then, you can work out why. Like, "I'm feeling stressed or frustrated or confused or ....'
I'm not a therapist but this strategy might help in the very moment of a panic attack?
I also go one step further and ask myself where this learned response came from. When have I felt this way before? As a child perhaps? A lot of my learned responses come from my childhood experiences.
Hope this was of help?
D
I'm also a member of the 'listen to your body' club.
I'm not sure how to describe it, but my body tells me the truth, when my mind is trying to wrangle itself around unpleasant stuff or I'm trying to trick myself into thinking everything is all right or I'm trying to avoid dealing with stuff and hope sticking my head in the sand will make the problem go away.
Because, sometimes, I need a break from dealing with stuff and crazy magical thinking takes over, and I believe (fervently hope) that I can solve my issues using shortcuts, by ignoring them and with minimal emotional investment. At some point my body says 'uhhuh Malini, nope, you're not getting away with this, this is too important and you need to deal with this' and usually the type of ache and pain indicates what I need to work on.
For example, for years, I thought I was managing to deal with my toxic FIL really well, except every time we visited him for a couple of days, I'd get a terrible sore throat and my left arm would be really sore (he sat on my left side). Whenever I got home, the pains would subside. So I started thinking why throat and why arm? I realised that I was being forced to swallow a lot of unpleasantness and the words I wanted to say were getting stuck in my craw and that my left side was tense from protecting the rest of me. So everything wasn't as hunky dory as I had magically hoped it was, and I was forced to address how to manage this relationship with DH, MiL, my kids, etc.
More common was my back pain to the point of being on the verge of scans, etc (I'm carrying too much emotional stuff - too much other people's emotional stuff) and pain around the heart ( I had this a lot whilst going NC and also when my DS's left home), I knew I wasn't having a heart attack, but that as brightly as I was smiling for all concerned, my heart was 'breaking' and I needed to do something with those feelings (share with adequate people, journaling, get support).
So it's more of a warning system for me. It hasn't stopped me jumping at shadows, or startling when the doorbell rings, it's a way of forcing me to take my blinders off and do something to effect change about whatever is troubling me.
This might sound like mumbo jumbo and I have no idea if this makes any sense. I do know that since going NC, my back problems have subsided considerably.
Do you get this type of strong body reaction at other times, with other people? Does this happen with just the toxic people in your life or with everyone? Do you ever experience this and there is not a reason for this response?
My personal experience has been this: that the response may be at a higher level than it needs to be but the base emotion is valid. Another words if I feel fear in the form of extreme panic there is a reason for the feeling of fear even though perhaps the level of fear is too much for the situation.
At the same time the emotion of anger was missing entirely. There was an extreme imbalance in the emotions of fear and anger. Once I was able to get in touch with anger even a little bit and start to respond to the lowest level of anger there was better balance in fear and panic. Karla McLaren, and I know I talk about this a lot, but it really helped me reading her blog and her book language of emotions. It helped me understand fear and panic, anger, and the message of emotions. But, and this is a huge but, what it meant for me to respond to lower levels of anger was to stop being concerned about what toxic people thought of me standing up for myself.
Personally my experience has been that the typical cPTSD response is there and it's there for a reason - the body is sending up huge red flags when it comes to toxic persons. I did not experience panic or fear when I was with safe persons, non toxic people. For me the level of panic was because I had not listened to fear at a lower level when around toxic persons so my body had to absolutely smack me over the head with it because I wasn't listening plus I was not feeling anger at all so fear had to take over to protect me and in massive quantities because I wasn't listening. Once I started protecting myself and responding to anger and fear at a lower level my body and mind no longer had to escalate to an extreme level to get my attention.
Quote from: stasia on October 26, 2017, 11:03:58 AM
WHY do I want to have contact with M? Answer: I don't. That is what SHE wants, and I am not her. That is what society expects of me because I am an only child and my mother has no one else in her life. I'd be quite happy never having to talk to her again, but I still get waves of guilt over how sad she must be that she doesn't have me in her life any more, and what kind of horrible person does that to their poor abused elderly widowed mother who clearly is too anxious to function in normal life.
So I guess for me, "listen to my body" is shorthand for "it's OK to make choices that are right for me even if they upset other people" and "don't make decisions based on FOG." If that makes sense at all. I don't know; honestly I'm still muddling through a lot of this. I just know I don't ever want to experience another one of those shaking, crying, numb-hands-and-arms, can't-catch-breath panic attacks in response to M.
:yeahthat:
For anyone on here who has a physical response, i can recommend belly breathing. I'm prone to waking at 3am in the morning, and the thoughts start taking over. I believe it's just a habit with me to wake at that time, but it seems to be during a particular part of the sleep cycle and it's impossible to shift to thinking about anything positive or happy. I have trained myself to acknowledge this fact and remind myself that whatever is bothering me (usually family) will be more bearable in the morning, but my body is still wired by this point, heart palps, feeling like my throat is constricting, feeling like i want to crawl out of my skin. Then i tried belly breathing which is something i've used after running. It's just breathing into your abdomen (instead of your chest - actually starts to feel more natural) for a count of 3 or 4, then breathing out for a count of 7 or 8. After a few times i find my body feels like it's sinking into the bed and my mind stops racing. Have tried it when feeling panicky while shopping and it helped then too x
A4P I hear you.
I've spent so long not listening to my body that now I can't really tell what it;s telling me!? I mean I am learning but sometimes I just don't trust it. And I don't know what the feelings feel like in my body. And I second guess what i 'should' be feeling. I've been having therapy for 2 years and my therapist still has to ask me - what are you feeling? What are you feeling in your body? I get the impression that its my younger self who doesn't know now more than my adult self (actually - I just realized that). Its a lot better than it was though. I have to remember that.
I think I believe in the body thing. I think my body does 'know'. And i think that's why i tuned out. Ugh I haven't said anything helpful at all! Just wanted to join in.
Quote from: Happypants on October 27, 2017, 02:47:57 AM
For anyone on here who has a physical response, i can recommend belly breathing.
Check out Peter Levine's book named "Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma ...." to learn more about some of the physical reason that does work well.
Happypants, what is it with 3am? No matter what time I went to bed like clockwork that 3am choking fit would want me from sound sleep. T recommended feeling the sheets and grounding saying out loud that I'm safe in addition to the belly breathing.
Kazzak, cliff hanger!
Quote from: Spring Butterfly on October 27, 2017, 09:03:33 AM
Kazzak, cliff hanger!
Oh, I'm not trying to tease, just didn't want to bring off topic :) In basic language, when you get a breathing cycle deep down into the belly (like described) it is connected with the (ancient) reptilian part of our brain, releasing trauma. That is the basis/premise of breathwork, and how our ancient bodies have developed over generations beyond our comprehension. Remember our ancestors are cavemen.
I think a certain amount of disassociation may be normal with people who have gone through what we have (going numbing, disconnecting). I'm sure breathing, meditation and yoga could help.
Box breathing and learning to meditate helped me not get overshadowed and over react.
I took training in TM and it is expensive but it is the cadillac of all forms of mediation. There are now 46 years of research about benefits of TM !!!
The TM technique helps with daily life & it improves your mental health.
And it is so easy! Some of the benefits of TM : improved mood, reduces anxiety& stress, helps with PTSD
and there is now recognition by the American Health Association that TM helps to normalize blood pressure.
Read the book, Super Mind. Studying mental health requires studying physical health. Simultaneous improvement in both are well documented in the TM research and continues to develop as one continues to meditate.
Brain function during TM soothes the brain and strengthens the brain naturally and effortlessly. Increased activity and coherence in the pre-frontal cortex during TM is evidence of improved brain functioning and mental health.
Quote from: kazzak on October 26, 2017, 10:12:49 AM
Hi all4peace, I've been thinking about this also and am happy to reflect on my experiences. I don't fight the somatic responses that I experience but instead try to have an awareness of my body and the emotions that I'm feeling. Ultimately, I don't want to keep the trauma in my body but let it flow out - as much as possible. I've had success with that - with guidance, practice and time. It does work.
But, as you point out to some extent, the crux of my problem is that I live in a high stress environment because of my exNPD/HPD. I've been able to put up some pretty strong boundaries - including no contact, permanent protection orders, batting down many flying monkeys, etc.
What I want to do is put down my defenses so that I'm not living on edge, with anxiety.
The drawback to putting down my defenses, based on hard learned experiences, is that can make me vulnerable to my ex's shenanigans down the road. It won't be next week, probably not next month. But the story isn't over.
I've reached a point personally that my defenses are lowering, I must as I have a child, also with CPTSD, living in this high stress environment too. I will keep aware of my vulnerabilities and remind myself if/when the time comes of the danger that comes with a relationship involving ex. But for now, for the sake of my self care, and care of my son, my approach is to let as much go as possible - when (and only if) it is safe to put down the defenses. Safety - internal, emotional/external, physical - comes first. But self care isn't far behind. Healing and releasing trauma is key to me.
"Letting it flow" makes so much sense. I just gave that same advice to a newer member who is talking about the flooding that is going on with her right now on this forum.
I was recently startled to find the ILs in a very, very safe place for me, for 2 entire days. My body felt it intensely. My heart felt like it actually lurched in my chest, every muscle in my body went weak, and my guts went wonky for a few hours. I found a place to be alone, did deep breathing, and calmed myself. And then I simply avoided them those 2 days. When I can plan my time with them, I have severe chest pain for the day before, pressure, tightness, gut issues, and once even just started gushing blood out my nose when I had been putting my face in my hands and working on deep breathing.
With my parents, I just feel depressed. Heavy, sad, slow, like crying. As it has gotten worse over time, I've felt anxiety build in my chest and gut before needing to see them, but nowhere near what it had been with the ILs.
I don't have this with any other relationship. I don't look forward to time with some people, and I might feel mildly nervous or anxious when stepping into a new situation, but I have never had this level of bodily anxiety in my entire life.
As a child, I was always physically alert to what the mood in the house was, how mom was, whether this would be a safe time to do xyz or not. I don't remember feeling anything in my body back then, though, unless of course I was being hit.
As far as safety, I had told DH that I needed his family away from our home and not privately reaching our children by text, and that would be "safe enough" for me. I'm also nearly NC with them at this point, and that is usually a level of safety I can live with. But as I consider whether I could/would move away from nearly NC to VVVLC, my body screams "No!!!!" and I don't actually know if it is a learned response or a valid one, or if those are one and the same. I don't know if my body is overreacting from the position I used to be in--totally exposed, no protection, no boundaries, no voice. I'm no longer in that unsafe of a place, but maybe my body doesn't know that yet? Or maybe it just needs more time to heal?
Quote from: Blueskies on October 26, 2017, 10:17:51 AM
Sounds like a question to work out in therapy. I also have cPTSD. I can't even speak to my M. I won't put myself through that. I tried to keep in contact by email but she kept attacking me so I stopped. I know one day I'll try and have some help with the trauma.
Usually the sooner I listen to my body, the sooner I feel calm. If I try and push past whatever my body doesn't want to do then I'll have a much more extreme reaction. I think the quicker you can interpret an emotion, the more your reactions might settle down. Your inner child has to learn to trust that you will listen. So if a family member says something disrespectful to you and you feel anger or panic but try and squash it down in order not to create a fuss then maybe it'll turn into a huge reaction. That's not your body overreacting - that's your body trying to get your attention because you didn't listen when the feeling began and was less intense.
Also look at the internalised messages that get you to ignore you body - all the dismissive thoughts you may have internalised from your FOO. Write them down, get familiar with them so if one comes up it's a red flag and you can stop and see what's going on. I would have some distance from them or see them in very small doses while you get to know yourself. Maybe if something happens or is said that causes a reaction, you can have things that you do or say to protect yourself - ie put down a boundary. I find establishing boundaries is the only thing that stops the panic - feeling like I'm not allowed to say 'no' or protect myself causes panic, which is not surprising.
Thank you! Yes, something to discuss with T. There are so many things to discuss that it's hard to get to them all! I love the reminder about listening so our bodies know we are listening and can then calm down. uNBPDmil is using cancer to try to get our DD alone (again), and my initial reaction is panic and rage, but when I remind myself that we don't have to give in, that we can hold our repeatedly spoken boundary, it does allow me to stop panicking and become calm again. Maybe it will just take more times like this to have less and less of an elevated initial response.
Stasia, unfortunately I don't have good answers to why I want to have contact. Because I really don't want to have contact. VLC is easier in many ways than NC. I'm really just trying for an easier route, I am not convinced things are bad enough for NC, and I still have kids at home that I feel I need to make some effort for them to have very limited time with grandparents, supervised.
MIB, thank you for the great suggestions! I can definitely get myself calm when there's NC, but it's during contact that I struggle with. Are you doing the meditation while in actual present contact with the PD?
coyote, that makes a lot of sense. If it took nearly 20 years to develop a response this strong, it seems unlikely I could unlearn it in 5 months. As my mind gets into a better and better place, perhaps my body will follow. I have been very glad to see that while my initial response is still as strong, it doesn't last nearly as long, so that is an improvement.
Dcox, I'm thankful that I don't struggle as some of you had, in the sense that I only get this when there is present or imminent contact. I do not have body responses any other time, thank goodness. I struggle with insomnia when there's a lot of contact, but only feel that physical dread in actual contact or right before it.
Quote from: Malini on October 26, 2017, 12:03:59 PM
I'm also a member of the 'listen to your body' club.
I'm not sure how to describe it, but my body tells me the truth, when my mind is trying to wrangle itself around unpleasant stuff or I'm trying to trick myself into thinking everything is all right or I'm trying to avoid dealing with stuff and hope sticking my head in the sand will make the problem go away.
Because, sometimes, I need a break from dealing with stuff and crazy magical thinking takes over, and I believe (fervently hope) that I can solve my issues using shortcuts, by ignoring them and with minimal emotional investment. At some point my body says 'uhhuh Malini, nope, you're not getting away with this, this is too important and you need to deal with this' and usually the type of ache and pain indicates what I need to work on.
For example, for years, I thought I was managing to deal with my toxic FIL really well, except every time we visited him for a couple of days, I'd get a terrible sore throat and my left arm would be really sore (he sat on my left side). Whenever I got home, the pains would subside. So I started thinking why throat and why arm? I realised that I was being forced to swallow a lot of unpleasantness and the words I wanted to say were getting stuck in my craw and that my left side was tense from protecting the rest of me. So everything wasn't as hunky dory as I had magically hoped it was, and I was forced to address how to manage this relationship with DH, MiL, my kids, etc.
More common was my back pain to the point of being on the verge of scans, etc (I'm carrying too much emotional stuff - too much other people's emotional stuff) and pain around the heart ( I had this a lot whilst going NC and also when my DS's left home), I knew I wasn't having a heart attack, but that as brightly as I was smiling for all concerned, my heart was 'breaking' and I needed to do something with those feelings (share with adequate people, journaling, get support).
So it's more of a warning system for me. It hasn't stopped me jumping at shadows, or startling when the doorbell rings, it's a way of forcing me to take my blinders off and do something to effect change about whatever is troubling me.
This might sound like mumbo jumbo and I have no idea if this makes any sense. I do know that since going NC, my back problems have subsided considerably.
Not mumbo jumbo at all.
My guts really react. I was just this week wondering if my guts were fed up with me not listening to them, ignoring them, talking loudly over the top of them, and finally just freaked out on me. I knew a lot of things at the gut level and refused to listen.
My heart has hurt pretty badly, radiating to my chest and back, just a clenched painful fist of pain. I also had not been listening to my heart. I wasn't protecting it. I did not keep it safe. I kept opening to people who harmed it. Maybe it had enough, too.
Quote from: Spring Butterfly on October 26, 2017, 05:03:50 PM
Do you get this type of strong body reaction at other times, with other people? Does this happen with just the toxic people in your life or with everyone? Do you ever experience this and there is not a reason for this response?
Personally my experience has been that the typical cPTSD response is there and it's there for a reason - the body is sending up huge red flags when it comes to toxic persons. I did not experience panic or fear when I was with safe persons, non toxic people. For me the level of panic was because I had not listened to fear at a lower level when around toxic persons so my body had to absolutely smack me over the head with it because I wasn't listening plus I was not feeling anger at all so fear had to take over to protect me and in massive quantities because I wasn't listening. Once I started protecting myself and responding to anger and fear at a lower level my body and mind no longer had to escalate to an extreme level to get my attention.
No, no reaction with anyone else besides parents.
Your last paragraph nails it! I love Karla McClaren's work also and finally realized that I have been ignoring emotions at their quieter levels and didn't notice them until they were screaming at me.
Happypants, belly breathing is the main thing that got me through the last couple years! It's something I instinctively knew to do when having bad physical pain and then the emotional pain. Lots of very deep, slow, calming breaths. I love our body's ancient wisdom.
Interesting about the T question. I can't say I usually "feel" anything in therapy at all. Why am I only feeling in my body when it has reached the level of mortal fear/dread? Maybe I'm still incredibly tuned out to my body. I'm also getting an alternative therapy for physical scarring, and I can't "feel anything" in my body there, either.
blueskies, I'm being only slightly tongue in cheek when I say that dissociation would be a welcome coping mechanism at this point.
Shell92127, I will look up TM. Thank you!
The GREAT thing about meditating is it truly lets my mind rest and nurtures my body. Once my mind rest and stops focusing on ideas and fears, I drift into a zone where my body begins to nurture itself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuHpbGrJdb4
calmness and peace - brain calms down and when you calm the mind you also calm the body
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb3aapcs_xU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txdZU2I0N0M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mcx3kAEY-U
stop your addiction to thinking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmhkmLFc74E
I learned from a very early age to listen to my body. At the age of 20 (possibly 21) i was married to ex#1 (i dont think he had a PD, but there were other stressors surrounding the relationship). I had become depressed to the point where i had the physical symptoms, couldn't concentrate at work, had the shakes. It was bad enough to the point where one of the nurses at my work had to call my family doctor to get an emergency appointment. He put me on a low-grade antidepressant to help with the physical symptoms, wanted me to go see "someone". I wasnt on it long, a few months maybe. Drove my then-husband to my sister's 4 hours away so he could learn a trade from her live-in. The moment (and i mean THE moment) I turned around to drive home after leaving him there, i felt released. Literally threw my pills away. Thats when i knew what the problem actually was and what had to be done.
Sort of same scenario with uNPDx#2. At the time i didnt know what was wrong with him. Some people said bipolar (its possible still i guess, but i see more N now that im out of the situation...emotional and physical abuse in this situation. Emotional abuse of the kids, my child from x#1 above and our son together). Anyway, got really bad. Same depressed feeling as above (crying daily, unable to concentrate) but now I was skipping cycles. Like every other month. And then the stress of the thought that i was pregnant with another child of his Compounded that. Now that i look back on it, this was going on for years. I just thought this is the way my body works and I shouldn't stress over it. It wasnt until he and i had a huge blow up and the words "i am not in love with you anymore" came out of my mouth....cycle was right as rain after that for the next year. Then i knew what had to be done. I was out a year later.
My current DH was having weird physical symptoms...indigestion for no apparent reason (popping OTC antacids like crazy), unexplained shoulder pain, unexplained pain on the left side of his body (where there are no organs if anyone is wondering). This was going on since probably before i met him 8 years ago. It wasnt until he had his blowup with MIL that these phantom pains went away. And i recently pointed it out to him. My physical symptoms this time manifested in the form of rashes. Not just redness, but actual itchy, weeping rashes that spread. This happened early on in the relationship. I really thought that it was just from me doing workouts outside in the grass. Got rashes under both triceps and in the crease of one elbow. Went to family doctor (not same one as above) and he gave me steroid cream (big tube of it so it lasted me a good while). Then the last few years it manifested onto my hands and as soon as it went away, it came back again. It was concerning because it just kept coming back over and over and over. Then i realized i havent had any in the last almost 2 years and that's when i went VVVLC with MIL. DH has been NC android ST since May and was VLC before that during the previous winter holidays. Luckily he came to realize I was not the "direct" cause of his mother's issues, because she would bring up something she thinks i slighted her for, but wasnt possible because I hadn't even been around her. What comes out of this woman's mouth is nothing short of amazing.
So yeah, i listen to my body. And now DH does too.
What a great thread! I have trouble with listening to my body too. There's so much wisdom and knowledge in this thread - I vote it goes in the toolbox.
Quote from: raindrop on November 12, 2017, 07:58:16 AM
What a great thread! I have trouble with listening to my body too. There's so much wisdom and knowledge in this thread - I vote it goes in the toolbox.
I've passed that vote on to the admin team so they are sure to know. Thanks!!
I received wise counsel from a friend today. As I await my parents' responses to 2 communications I sent to them, I'm feeling pain and tension build in my body. I asked her (she's a healer) for any advice beyond the usual self care.
Here's her response:
Friend: Talk to your pain. Ask your body what it is trying to accomplish. Try to get to the visceral level of what your body is doing.
Me: I'm preparing for battle. I'm like an animal, not sure what is about to come next, but tense and trying to be ready for the unpredictable.
Friend: What is your greatest fear?
Me: I'm afraid of being cut off from my extended family.
Friend: I don't want to overstep, but if there a fear even more visceral than that?
Me: I suppose I am afraid they could physically attack me. My mind knows that is very unlikely, but they often did in childhood and probably some part of my body is afraid of being attacked and is tensing in preparation.
Friend: Then talk to your body. Let your body know it is safe. Talk to your pain. Let it know you are an adult now. You are safe. You are in control. You are prepared. Talk to your pain, and it will be like one part of your mind talking to another part of your mind, but ask it what it needs to be released.
I started seeing this healer friend to get help with a lot of internal physical scarring that has been impacting my life, and it turns out she is the most incredible therapist I have ever known! She does a lot of talk therapy in which she takes me back to painful parts of life (imagine when you were born, tell me what age you first understood things weren't ok in your family, tell me what it felt like to have surgery, etc.) and then has me visualize myself at that age (infant, 10 year old, adult) and speak to myself at that age in whatever capacity would be healing.
So, for the terrified, medically traumatized, cold, startled, in-pain, alone infant, I went back to her and became her mother. I held her, comforted her, whispered in her ear that she wasn't alone, cuddled her, helped calm her and warm her. And during that session, i sobbed tears so long and hard that they left burns dripping down my cheeks.
For the 10 year old who knew her family wasn't ok, that the hitting and yelling and leaving were not ok, I became her adult friend, telling her she was right. Telling her that what she knew was right, no matter what other adults were saying to her, no matter what they were doing. That she was right, and she would be ok, and I would be her friend until she was grown up and would be able to leave.
I can only say that my physical anxiety symptoms are incredibly better than they used to be. I still get physical anxiety symptoms, but not even close to what they used to be. My life isn't debilitated by them, the pain is very manageable, and it seems to be on a steady progression towards better health.
Even in the time since I first posted this thread, a lot has happened and my body has been far less reactive than in the past. I've had more treatments, more time in T, more self-care, and more self-talk as described above. I really believe that with time my body will get to the point where it's sending me signals I need to honor and listen to, but will hopefully not be over-reacting in a way that is too much and too painful. I just want to be sure to continue to listen to it and never, ever again try to ignore what it is trying to say. I have definitely learned that painful and very long lesson.
Hi all4peace,
I've always dabbled in meditation but am using it now in a more consistent way as a means of coping/calming myself as I'm dealing with major parental drama/VVLC. It's helped immensely, along with yoga, this forum, reading books on the subject (I just read "Surviving a Borderline Parent" and found it remarkably helpful...highly recommend it) as well as having a good T who had actually met my parents/husband so has the context first hand.
It's all culminated in me seeing the importance of living in the now (which thankfully is pretty happy though busy with two small kids LOL) , trying not to ruminate (& getting more successful at it!), accepting things as they are and deciding to do what's best for me and my FOC. It's a journey, and I may take a few steps backwards here and there, but I am making progress and feel like I'm growing as a person. And that's a good thing, right? :)
Big hugs to you,
MIB
I had no idea my body was physically reacting to narc abuse until after I told uNPDxH I wanted a divorce and started researching PD. However, I had been dealing with elevated blood pressure, tingling in fingers, lips and toes, heart racing, etc for many years. I even went to my doctor who diagnosed anxiety, but I thought it was from long term money issues. It honestly never occurred to me to talk to my physician about what I was being put through from uNPDxH.
Once I started researching PD and narcissism in particular, I came across an article about the physical manifestations of narcissistic abuse, and I think I started crying. Tingling in extremities? Check! Increased blood pressure? Yep! Insomnia? Oh sure. Difficulty breathing (or change in breathing)? Constantly.
As I worked through my issues, I found that my physical symptoms lessened. But I was stunned and a bit frightened when they returned the day after uNPDxH and I finally came to an agreement regarding our divorce (shared parenting plan had already been agreed upon). I couldn't understand why my lips and fingers were tingling again (with a vengeance), why I couldn't seem to catch my breath, and why my head felt like it was going to explode. I should've been on top of the world. It was finally pretty much over. I had no residual feelings for uNPDxH, so I knew that I wasn't in any way sad that my marriage was that much closer to being officially over.
I came to the conclusion that just as our bodies have muscle memory, they also have emotional memory. My body, unbeknownst to me, immediately started preparing for the next "attack." It has lessened in the months since the divorce, but when I have to come into contact with him or any of his family members, I've learned to expect that emotional memory to come back. It's hard to go through, and I look forward to the day when my body and my mind realizes that I'm safe.
Great topic!
All4Peace that is absolutely amazing and fascinating. It brings a real lump to my throat to read of your experience.
Thanks for starting this thread, I have recently found myself wondering some of the same things. I am struggling with how much if any anxiety is ok. It manifests with a tightness in my chest and stomach that starts the day before an interaction with my mom, and how long it lasts after depends on how emotionally charged the interaction was. I am still feeling the physical effects of an interaction we had last weekend.
physical response = somatic
trauma = ptsd
Somatic response to trauma. ime. it can be traumatizing and have long lasting residual impacts on my body.
What a great thread!
A few weeks ago I was talking with my therapist about the free floating panic that I've been having lately. I'm divorced from my ASPD ex, something that I've been working towards for 3 years. I have a good job and like where I live. I'm inhabiting the life I've wanted for a very long time. And I am STILL having this primal, fear/panic reaction. Some days it feels so overwhelming, it's all I can do to function.
My therapist explained that all of my fears and worries are valid, but the volume is turned way too far up on them. In other words, each worry issue has merit, just not a the defcon 4 level where I am feeling it. As is so often the case, I actually forgot completely about this conversation until I read this thread. (CPTSD amnesia?)
I'm already putting this into practice with today's blaring panic -- being terrified I'm going to get fired after having a work review with my boss in which she said I had two specific areas for improvement. I didn't hear any of the other glowing compliments about my work from her, of course. So.... using my therapist's logic I should: 1 Recognize that my emotional reaction is out of proportion; 2 Pay attention and address the areas for improvement; 3 Breathe.
Seven, life taught you some important lessons! I've been trying to tell DH for years that "just ignore it" and "don't let it bother you" just.doesn't.work. I kept pointing out to him that animals do NOT ignore their instincts, and they don't relax or ignore danger, ever. I'm glad you knew better, and that your DH has learned it also.
MIB, I love how many different tools you are using to get healthier! I just love the energy and optimism I hear in your post. That's a great thing, growing!
me_again, thank you for sharing that wisdom--that sometimes we may get worse again before continuing to get better. Once I unloaded some of the most difficult things in therapy, my T warned me that I should prepare myself for the grief to hit, and that my adrenal system might be off kilter for a while. It's as if being in fight-flight mode for too long just exhausts it all, and once we're safer it can just collapse.
I hope you soon have consistently good days and weeks. :bighug:
spring butterfly, I wish everyone could experience her type of therapy! I went into it thinking it would be purely physical, and it has been some of the most spectacular emotional healing as well. The first time I got a treatment, it was the first time in a very long time that I felt my old capacity for love. Sounds weird, but that's what I felt like. Loving. More loving than I had felt in a very long time, and that was a very, very welcome sensation.
Moxic890, I'm so sorry that you struggle with anxiety. I've come to accept very little anxiety in my life. I pushed it down so hard for so long that it nearly did me in. These days I have much more respect for what my body is trying to tell me and almost never put myself in situations that I know will cause anxiety. I hope you are feeling better this evening and hope some of the suggestions in this thread can be helpful!
openbluesky, I'm going to post below about what you're talking about here--anxiety and free-floating panic. It sounds like you're doing a good job of talking yourself off the ledge! I have found that the more times things go right, it becomes a precedent for me to refer back to the next time I'm worried about a similar situation. It gives you lots of reference points for self-talk. Good luck continuing to work through this!
I went to a talk recently about adolescent brain development, but it turned out to be much more broadly focused on mental health. The psychiatrist talked about being stuck in endless loops in our head when we are facing a problem that we cannot find a solution to (dealing with PDs, anyone?) and that it leads to rumination, depression and anxiety.
He talked about seratonin, how each of us genetically has a range of seratonin production, some much higher, some much lower.
He also talked about our genetic coping ability, how much stress we can handle, how many activities. Again, some people can handle/cope with a lot, some much less.
Regardless of how much ability we have to cope, endure pain, or how much capacity we have for happiness, when we get overloaded, we will start to struggle with feeling joy or happiness. When our seratonin is messed up, we are not happy and may struggle to eat enough or with eating too much, insomnia.
He described our 4 primary human emotions and how we feel them, in order of ideal to nonideal, as below:
HAPPINESS ANGER SADNESS FEAR
Happiness is our goal.
When feeling stressed, we may move to anger (or a minor expression of it such as annoyance or irritation)
Then sadness (heading towards depression)
Lastly, in our primordial amygdala, we feel fear (and anxiety)
When we are completely overloaded, we start to shut down and experience depression. He said that a brain in depression generates much less electricity than a healthy one. Depressed people literally don't have the energy to pull themselves out of it.
He said that someone in therapy will come out of that sequence in reverse, which is often hard to cope with and/or upsetting:
Depression/anxiety > sadness/grief (which can be huge and overwhelming) > ANGER!! (which may be scary) > Happiness
He also mentioned that if we spend too much time in fear, it can really shut down our seratonin system and shut us down. (please correct me, anyone, if I'm getting some of this wrong)
I know that when I hit the toughest spots in therapy, my grief was massive. I would cry, often, for an hour at a time, gut-wrenching sobs. Everything made me cry. I started to wonder if I would ever stop crying. And then I got pissed. Now I'm feeling mainly meh about a lot of it. It was absolutely fascinating to hear him describe exactly what my process has been the last few years (including getting stuck in nonstop ruminations when we cannot find a way out of our dilemma, and how that leads to anxiety and depression).
His advice was basic and mainly obvious but a good reminder: Good amt of sleep, vegetables, exercise, time to enjoy life, time to connect with loved ones, therapy if needed, antidepressants if needed.
It was really meaningful and fascinating to me, the mind (brain)-body connection, described by both behavioral and chemical models.
Thanks for that, all4peace, it's really interesting.
Thank you for sharing that! Great note taking, and appreciated on this end.
Barometer = appetite, digestion, sleep.,,
All4Peace, that's some pretty great information and very much describes the path my journey took also. Do you have any information available online have this speaker or author? It might really benefit our members to be able to look into it further.
Thanks for posting that, all4peace. I found it really interesting. And thank you for sharing the recommendations. I definitely see where I'm falling short on the self-care (though man, it is SO HARD to make time for it.)
Quote from: Malini on October 26, 2017, 12:03:59 PM
I'm also a member of the 'listen to your body' club.
Because, sometimes, I need a break from dealing with stuff and crazy magical thinking takes over, and I believe (fervently hope) that I can solve my issues using shortcuts, by ignoring them and with minimal emotional investment. At some point my body says 'uhhuh Malini, nope, you're not getting away with this, this is too important and you need to deal with this' and usually the type of ache and pain indicates what I need to work on.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :yeahthat:
Just the thread I needed to read. Reminds me of Louise Hayes book about pain and the body. I read your post and scanned my body for the reaction spot to a hoovering email I have just received, literally, 1 hour or so ago. I felt pain, lurching, heaviness in my hearts stomach area. Plus jitteriness.
Great post. Thank you ;D
Oh yes, rumination -- the vicious wet blanket of my existence. Rumination has wasted more of my time and energy than Facebook, Instagram, Tetris, and bad television combined. I think it was the hardest thing to get a handle on when I was planning to leave my PD and afterward for about a year. I'm so glad you brought it up.
Now that I am NC, my son is having to deal directly with his ASPD father -- and the thing he complains about the most is rumination. He feels sometimes like it has taken over his life and gets depressed, but also angry about that. (I think the anger is probably healthier.) Through talking with him, I've realized that how I push back the rumination might not be the best strategy for him.
openskyblue, I learned recently about the endless feedback loop (rumination) that develops when we cannot find a solution to a problem. I wonder if that is what drives VLC or NC for many of us--we've hit a problem that we cannot solve, and it drains us of so much energy being stuck in an unsolvable relationship problem. I hope your DS is able to find a way to cope with his own struggles.
This holiday, as our vehicle headed closer and closer to my parents, despite having great conversations with my FOC, thinking about other things and listening to music (not simultaneously :D), I found my heart getting tighter and more painful as the miles sped past. Good ol' body, letting me know what was coming even if my mind was doing a pretty bang-up job of keeping it at bay. Still, it was very manageable. I worked on breathing, pumped up the tunes, and reminded myself that I am now an adult, with support, with power, with self-control, with many who love me. And the pain abated.
As 2 days passed, I felt the grief moving in. And instead of trying to hold it back, to deny it, pretend it didn't exist, I left the situation and headed home to those who love me, and those who I love. Once I was in the safety of my car I let it out in a crying session that simply lasted as long and as hard as it needed to be. And then I went home and will carry on with my beautiful life. I slept better than I have slept in a very long time. And I have plans for this beautiful day. I had bad dreams about family in the night, but other than that I feel well.
It has been VERY helpful to me to:
--surround myself as much as possible with love and beauty and joy
--take time for good self care, especially diet and exericse
--remind myself when I am terrified that I am now an adult, the child is protected and safe, and I now stand as an adult. Because I believe in God, it is very comforting for me to imagine him very, very close to me, in the stance of a tenderly loving and protective father, for me to remember that I have a family I have chosen and created who is healthy and loving, and that I have dear friends who share the most precious things in life with me.
My dear healer friend (and my therapist, 2 different people) have helped me understand that a lot of what happens in my body is because of triggers to childhood. A lot of their work has been to heal that child, and to remind me of the adult who now stands in her place, protected, surrounded by love, and armed with tools that the child didn't have and wasn't allowed to use.
When the grief or rage hit me like a tsunami, I work on letting it flow through. I acknowledge it (feeling intense anger, for example) and let it flow right on through. I breathe it right back out so it won't stay in me and do physical harm. I picture everyone I love standing around me and behind me, in support and protection. I tell the little girl inside me that she is now safe, she isn't alone, she is loved and protected and knew the truth all along, and now she has me and all the others standing behind her, protecting her. I breathe it out, I cry it out, I do whatever it takes to get it all out again. And then move on in my day and my life, and my body now holds onto very, very little.
I don't mean to go on and on, and I hope I'm not endlessly repeating myself, but I just want to share in case it helps anyone else. I know the physical pain and anxiety of dealing with PDs, and it has been a long journey in finding tools for coping, so I feel an urgency to share! :bighugs: to all of you.
Wonderful post!
Your theory about NC and VLC is very intriguing, and makes so much sense to me. I went NC with my (now ex) husband because I could not find a way to live with him that would not kill me. Really the only way to save myself was to leave and go NC. That may sound extreme, but I know it's true. Denying oneself any measure of independence, self-care, even just voicing a simple opinion about something mundane takes a terrible toll on a soul. Add to that insults, the whittling down of a sense of self-worth, and constant fear, and I believe that can kill a person. I know my son is grappling with this: Is there any way I can remain in contact that doesn't result in being on the receiving end of rage, constant demands, and the guilt machine.
I get what you mean about letting the emotions pass through you. In my experience, resisting any emotion just lets it take over, haunt me. Your post reminded me to keep any eye out for this — and remember to let my emotions run their course. Thanks! I'm glad you are back with your loved and loving ones.
:bighug:
Quote from: openskyblue on November 25, 2017, 04:48:59 PM
Your theory about NC and VLC is very intriguing, and makes so much sense to me. I went NC with my (now ex) husband because I could not find a way to live with him that would not kill me.
This speaks to me so much. When everything gets to be 'too much' emotionally which is pretty often, my body tells me by getting sick or developing pain or getting really weak. I went VLC with FOO when I realized that I was no longer willing to put up with their behaviour towards me
at the expense of my health.
all4peace, your sharing here helps me! I need repeats, bit of a slow learner here ;)
Oh, i totally relate with this and agree. I have fibromyalgia type symptoms (chronic pain in one side of the body) after seeing or relating to the FOO. I worked out it was in reaction to them, and it took several days / weeks of pain relief, exercise, sleep etc to get it back to a manageable level after dealing with them. It has now nearly resolved after going NC. So yes, listen to your body!
Orangeblossom, that's wonderful!
The book Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nakazawa is about decades of scientific study that directly link adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) to adulthood physical dis-ease and illness.
The book also gives so much hope when it gives a lot of guidance on how to reverse that damage (and it is reversible). I have 6-7 ACE categories, which would put me in the category of shortening my lifespan by 20 years. I don't plan to have that be my outcome, so I'll also continue to work hard on reversing all that damage!
I'm so happy for you. And, btw, fibromyalgia comes up constantly as a trauma-related disease, but I'm sure that's not news to you.
Yes, in a similar vein I have been reading about genetics and methylation. This can happen also due to childhood abuse and means certain genes are expressed more than others. They call it the epigenome, how our environment affect our gene expression. They looked and obsevrved in children who had died sadly and been abused and saw they had greatly increased methylation. So it can actually affect your DNA and gene expression :unsure:
Quote from: Orangeblossom77 on December 10, 2017, 04:01:09 AM
Yes, in a similar vein I have been reading about genetics and methylation. This can happen also due to childhood abuse and means certain genes are expressed more than others. They call it the epigenome, how our environment affect our gene expression. They looked and obsevrved in children who had died sadly and been abused and saw they had greatly increased methylation. So it can actually affect your DNA and gene expression :unsure:
Yes! My current book
Born Anxious by Daniel P. Keating speaks about methylation also. It is reassuring and saddening for me to understand better why I hit a wall of anxiety and depression a couple years ago.
The book I read was called Super Genes by Deepak Chopra, it was fascinating, all about things like upbringing, diet and exercise and mindfulness etc and the epigenome. It all makes sense doesn't it.
Great thread, Allforpeace,
Limiting or ending contact is the only thing that has ever worked for me as far as curbing the CPTSD symptoms. When I had contact, I couldn't curb the anxiety or truly heal, but just cope at best. There has been a massive purge in my life of people who make me feel that way, and it's been a little lonely, but empowering too.
Up until my decision to go NC, I had managed with heavy boundaries. I had to live overseas to feel truly safe and even then when we got back together, holidays were one big emotional flashback for me.
It really is a personal decision, and the circumstances are different for everyone. I would say to just know that you can't make a wrong decisions if you listen to your gut (and your body). I'm a big believer in that.
I have this very old dog - just a funny side note - we started smelling burnt hair and realized he was standing right next to our space heater. He was just looking at us while the heater slowly singed his hair and would have been on fire if we didn't smell the burning. This is how it is with CPTSD, only we know were on fire, right?
Just my two cents. Hope it helps.
I feel the same about the NC. It is like a balm.
I hope I'm posting this in the correct spot.
Right now it's 8:00 pm and my eyes are closing. My body is exhausted. Is it because of stbx and being drained by him? Yes. Is it because I haven't had a day to myself in nearly a month? Yes.
I can't even get into my happy place with visualizations any more :(
So, my body feels like it's falling apart lately.
My knees ache. I now have issues with my neck and back that I have to see a chiropractor for.
My skin is breaking out in unexplained rashes, bumps and hives. I've changed nothing in my diet.
This has to be all related to the stress of being with stbx. It has to be.
[ But, and this is a huge but, what it meant for me to respond to lower levels of anger was to stop being concerned about what toxic people thought of me standing up for myself. "
:yeahthat:
Spot on. :)
Newest symptoms:
My nails are peeling so badly. I've never had this before.
Stomach issues.
Rashes and itchy bumps/hives all over my body. My skin crawls constantly.
My eyes glaze over constantly.
I get tingling in my fingers and toes.
My muscles ache for no reason.
Excellent suggestions shared here!
Locking due to thread length. :bigwink: