My UNPDF died in October and left my UAPDM in a financial mess. (He chose to do this and told us all he intended to die in as a much debt as possible.) She has sold the house - against advice - and is moving from 170km away to within 4km of my home. She has very little capital and no pension other than basic benefits. She is making all kinds of ridiculous demands about where. and how she will live and whenever challenged she says that she will kill herself. My sister is the GC and UBPD, she lives near to me too and is abusive in many ways too.
Despite LC I have been having intense attacks of anxiety and a strong desire to run away. I feel completely overwhelmed and paralysed at the fact of her being so close and my being expected to be involved in her life. Today I was FOGed into taking her to view a house close by and have been in an emotional mess since.
I want nothing to do with any of this but am struggling to find a way to keep out of it. I have considered changing my phone number and disappearing, but FOG overwhelms me at time.
My whole life has been spent trying to keep my distance. My FOO are highly dysfunctional, abusive, manipulative, lying and I am the SG. They have no respect for me and no understanding of how I feel - let alone taking my feelings into account.
I have been very ill as a result of their behaviour, have major physical and mental health problems which are exacerbated by any contact with them. They flat out deny the seriousness of my health problems and have called me all kinds of names in the past, as well as telling other people how 'useless, selfish and miserable I am.' They had lied, used and abused me for years until I found a way to go LC but now I feel as if I've wasted my time and will be sucked back in again.
I really need to be reminded about how to deal with all of this again.
I am dealing with a uBPD mother who has extreme expectations of me to take care of her. I moved her back to our hometown, into her own apartment. I have very carefully considered boundaries that I have clearly told her, repeatedly. However she thinks that if she just ignores me, and uses her magic thinking, she will get what she wants. I hold my boundaries and refuse to give into her demands. Dealing with her is exhausting, stressful, and I believe has caused me to become seriously ill. A lifetime of toxicity.
Please ,Lillith65, take care of yourself. Become aware of what is best for your well-being and set boundaries that support you in protecting your well-being and recognize what is reasonable for someone to expect from you (I had to sit down and write it out at first). If you don't want to be involved with her, don't. if you are willing to help with one thing or for 2 hours, do so, then leave. It is your life, It is your right, and yours alone, to choose what you want do ( a concept I found mind-blowing!).
I am painfully aware that I could literally work myself to death for my mother and it would never be enough. She would suck up every minute of my day, rob me of every joy in my life, and destroy every relationship I have, to have me attending to her every endless need and foolish whim. She truly does not give a damn about me except for what I do for her. I often wonder why I bother with someone to whom I mean so little. All the best to you, Lillith65.
Awww, hell NO! :aaauuugh: If my PD father was moving close to me, I would be looking for a job transfer, or a new place asap! :sharkbait:
If that's not an option, then I would suddenly be super busy at work or take another job. :whistling: My PD father lives 300 miles away for a reason! He's always begging me to come back to town, because he wants me to take care of him. NOPE! :no: He lives in an assisted-living community with nurses everywhere. I'm not going to be nurse #467! :no:
Sorry to hear that you're going through that. :hug:
Hi Lillith :)
You're going to be okay! :yes: Just because she moves close to you, doesn't mean you have to do a thing for her.
I lived 3 miles from unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, and I'm an only child. It didn't stop me from going VLC, using Medium Chill ("I can't - I'm busy. Maybe another time.") and NOT becoming further enmeshed with them as they aged. Each was determined that I'd be their SLAVE and that didn't happen because of the good folks on this forum, and the great advice in the Toolbox. 8-)
The more either of them pushed or "hinted" that I should help, the more I lowered contact instead. Even hoovers of *ahem* vast riches :roll: were met with me lowering contact.
At the time Didi died, I hadn't seen her in 6 months and didn't go to her funeral. Ray is now in a nursing home, incompetent, and I'm NC - so you CAN avoid the traps.
I'm living proof. :heythere:
If moving is at all an option, you might want to consider it.
Or you could block her number and the numbers of all Flying Messenger Monkeys and abusive members of your FOO. If *they're* so damned concerned about her, they can get off their butts and take care of her.
If you haven't upgraded to an Iphone, this might be the time to treat yourself - blocking numbers is EASY! ;D
You just have to give yourself *permission.*
It sounds like contact with her is a nightmare, so I'd *definitely* give myself permission to not have any. If she wants to look at houses, she can figure out another way to do it, that doesn't involve you.
In fact, if you don't cart her around, she may not move - I can't promise anything, but if you don't *enable* her, she'll have to rely on your sister, who may or may not be able to be found because she's unBPD and the GC - often, GCs are *ghosts* when their ageing parents need anything and expect the SG to do it ALL, while *they* reap the benefits. :aaauuugh:
If your mom is the one moving or trying to move, SHE can visit houses without you and hire a mover when the time comes. You don't have to be involved in *any* of it.
Think of it this way - what's the worst thing she could do to you if you say, "NO"?
She can't ground you. She can't send you to your room without dinner. She can't cut of your internet access or take away your computer. She can't take your car keys. She can't DO a thing except threaten suicide, which will make you *immediately hang up and call 911.*
Even if you know it's an empty threat, call 911. They'll send an ambulance to her house and she'll have to explain it to *the paramedics.* :evil2: :ninja:
Once your mom realizes you mean business, she may stop messing with your head. She'll know you mean business and what the *consequence* of her threats will be. :thumbup:
And what's the worst thing that would happen if you block her number, and your sister's number?
Your sister shows up at yours, I imagine you'll say.
Just because she's there, doesn't mean you have to answer the door. She can bang and knock until she gets bored and leaves, and if she makes a scene, you can call the police and have her removed, while *documenting everything* in case you ever need to take out a restraining order.
You don't have to be involved in any of this dysfunctional mess if you REFUSE to be involved.
Not your circus - not your monkeys.
Your fear and panic may be a replacement for another very important emotion we're so often told we're not allowed to feel, as Scapegoats - and that emotion is ANGER.
Because we've never been allowed to get angry, we often channel it into the powerlessness of anxiety, fear, panic and hopelessness, ie, "It's gonna happen no matter what I do or say, because I get NO say and my opinions and feelings don't matter."
But they DO - and allowing yourself to say, "Wait a freaking minute...HOW DARE THEY treat me like this!? Who the hell do they think they are?! NO! I'm not helping out in this freak show! She wants to move her damned ass, she can do it without me!" - can be amazingly beneficial to your physical and mental health, and extremely cathartic. :yes:
You are ALLOWED to have boundaries and to say NO. You matter! Your opinion matters! What you want matters! :yes: 8-)
Anger is healthy. Anger is good. Anger can be a good motivator and catalyst for change. Anger lets us know when we've been hurt or wronged in some way.
And you ARE being wronged. Your peace and tranquility are under siege by people who don't give a damned about you or your needs, and think only of *themselves.*
If you haven't read the book, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend, I think it would be a great idea.
You've GOT this, Lillith! You can DO this! You can take back your own power, say enough is enough and be BRAVE enough to block their numbers, which puts up a *boundary* and clearly says, "I'm not doing this and I'm not discussing it." :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
:hug:
WI, your post is exactly what I need. I need to set boundaries - I have been LC and MC for over a year, but the latest development and several other recent serious life events have led to me panicking.
I was really proud of myself yesterday because in the car she was talking about how my unemployed GC UBPD sister is unable to help her move, which is what she promised. I replied 'Oh dear.' and when she carried on about who she could ask I told her that I was working - which is true, but because I am now self employed I could change my schedule - but I don't want to and am not up to it.
So, I have made a start.
In the last four years I have moved five times and tried to harm myself several times as a result of living with an NPD partner(also schizoid). In the last year I. was made redundant from a job I loved after 16 years, I supportd my ex through the death of his father in another country, three months later he threw me out (in the same week that my uNPDF died) which meant I lost my home and many of my belongings. I am also dealing with long term health problems. It has been hellish.
I know all of that sounds BPD waify, but it has all happened and I am working really hard to overcome it: started my own business, setting up a home, in therapy and being as independent as possible!
Needless to say I have had zero support or understanding from my FOO. My GC sister (never worked, two grown up children) splashes any minor setback of her's over social media - I have blocked her.
Its the FOG that gets to me though even after I have refused. Need to do some reading and some work 💪🏻
Lillth65, wow, what a year. My uBPDmom, now deceased, used to threaten to stop taking the maintenence medications that sustained her life, somewhat like a suicide threat. After the first go round, I practiced medium chill responses to her threats. Sounds awful, worked well and made me realize there was nothing I could do.
"oh, dear," was a great MC response to your sister's backing out helping to move.
I agree with WI that if you don't help with the moving process, she might not move as close to you as she would like. I'm helping my dad clear out uBPDmom's things, and nothing happens unless I'm there.
Don't let her in your house, other people have wound up responsible for elderly parents because "the fall" happened in child's home and the parent can't be moved.
I second waitingforthesun that a flight response to the whole situation might be a good one, if it can be done without damaging your health further.
Congrats and much success on starting your own business.
Yes, ADPM is likely moving so that you can be her caregiver. Yes, your GC nsis likely assumes you'll assume most of the mother-care duty. But that said, there's really nothing left here in these dysfunctional relationships that obligates you to fulfill that caregiver role, or to increase contact from your present LC/MC mode. You can decide to refrain from any further involvement with either person. That's your choice to make, and if you refrain from fulfilling their expectations and demands, well that's good, because you are your own 1st priority here.
Some of us ACONs were raised to be the parentified "dutiful daughter/good girl", but our GC siblings are excused, not expected to provide service, obedience, and passive acceptance of inappropriate demands/expectations and abusive behavior from our parents. That unfair dysfunctional family dynamic, of placing substantially more "burden" on one SG sibling, is disrupted only if WE SGs stop complying, if we truly implement and reinforce boundaries, and modify our own specific responses to their demands, via unshakable noncompliance and calm refusal to those demands.
So deliberately stop complying, without FOG, without JADE. It's okay to do so. Stop capitulating to their cajoling, hectoring, complaining; tune them out. It's okay to do so. Stop responding to their hoovers and demands. Remain silent, and absent. Silence is an answer in of itself. You can't "fix them", can't fix dysfunctional family dynamics long-established and enforced, but you can ably change yourself, even in middle-age, even after your own personal setbacks, to affect change within yourself, to adopt self-respect and self-preservation as essential requirements in engaging in any relationship with other people, even your difficult mother. You don't need to satisfy her anymore.
Lillith65,
I have been very ill as a result of their behaviour, have major physical and mental health problems which are exacerbated by any contact with them. They flat out deny the seriousness of my health problems and have called me all kinds of names in the past, as well as telling other people how 'useless, selfish and miserable I am.' They had lied, used and abused me for years until I found a way to go LC but now I feel as if I've wasted my time and will be sucked back in again.
I'm sorry and understand! The agony they put us through. I too had a mental breakdown a year after my first nc with BPM. I was in the hospital twice because I was having convulsions. She knew from my sibs but never called me or DH, the very least to see how I was doing. Why, because I went nc.
Being the eldest daughter, she expected me to care for her. I did but giving a foot wasn't enough, she wanted a mile. She raged at me on New Years Eve like I was a piece of crap because I gave her my opinion on some ridiculous story. That is when I went nc the first time, for 3 years.
Even though she would come over to my house minimum once a week, her constant complaints of loneliness and wanting the same life we (FOO) had got to me. She would tell me "but you have a car". :doh: " Mother, I'm 60 yrs old, maybe at 80 I won't have a car". She went to the Casino, two nights in a row till the wee hours of the morning, caught the flu BIG TIME and kept on telling me how the neighbour thought she was dead when she wasn't answering her phone or the door. I was retired at that point but we only had one car then. The second week on Friday she was getting better but called gc sister, complained that I hadn't called her all week, that her surrogate daughter had to come and pick her up, bring her to her house to rub her down with Vicks or whatever. Both of them (my sister and M) were at my house on the Monday and she was doing better. Sis was bringing her grocery shopping. Everything just went downhill from there, always about her needs and wants. Wanting me to have a relationship with estranged gcb who came back after 35 yrs because he was alone , his wife died. He showed me his true colors. NOT INTERESTED. I am nc for the last time for my peace of mind and well being.
I live 10 mins away from BPD.
Best wishes :kisscheek:
It is so shocking that there are so many PD parents out there making so much trouble for their families. It always bemuses me that as soon as someone acquires the title 'Mom' they are seen by others as someone to be cherished and cared about, someone that we should put first, because well.....'They're your Mom!'
Unless they have lived with PD parents, as so many of us have, the rest of the world has no idea about how horrible things can be and how much it affects us.
That is what makes this forum so important and so special. I know that you understand, that you know how soul destroying dealing with elderly PD parents is.
This is the only place that I feel understood, that I get advice that I know will work and where I am not judged.
Thank you.
Thought that I would write out the whole mess as a reference for me - especially in the future.
My mother has sold the house (several hundred miles away) because she says she can't afford it and will kill herself if she stays in it. There is no reason to move other than she says that a small amount of work needs doing on it:
The work will cost less than selling and moving! :stars:
There is very little capital in the house because of equity release. There is also a small mortgage on it which is being paid by the state:
Moving means that she will living in insecure accommodation with a private landlord as she refuses any housing association or part ownership schemes. This means that she will be at the mercy of a landlord (repairs/ maintenance) and can be evicted with a month's notice. :sadno:
She insists that she wants a three bedroom house with a big garden to rent. She is over 80 with no visitors.
This also means that when her capital runs out (2-3 years maximum) the state will have to pay the rent. The state will only house elderly, single people in single bedroom properties. She will have to move again. :stars:
She says she will be dead in 2 years or she will kill herself. So it doesn't matter :stars:
Where she is living she has several good neighbours who do a lot for her. She is expecting me and my sister to provide her social life and all of her care: she doesn't drive, won't get involved in anything and has refused to look at housing associations specialising in older adults. :no:
My sister is telling her that she will be fine once she's near family - while encouraging her to rent 10 miles away from her - and my sister doesn't drive either.
Remember, just because your mother demands these things, incessantly verbalizes them, it doesn't mean that you must facilitate them. When she expresses these expectations and demands, I'd blandly refuse to respond in any manner, verbally, or with eventual physical help towards achieving those expectations. So you're "expected to be involved": NOPE. Whether you are "involved" is strictly your personal decision, because to "opt-out" is an entirely reasonable choice for you alone to make. Your mother and sister have abused your good nature for far too long, taken advantage of your kindness and regard, and will never reciprocate, or likely even appreciate, the personal aid and helpful service you've provided them for years. So gently let go. Please put yourself as your 1st priority. Therapy truly helped me overcome my rigid belief that I was duty-bound to serve my own NBM, enNF, and nsis despite our miserable relationship dynamics.
Your mother is responsible for outcome of her decisions, NOT YOU. If she makes poor choices, she is stuck with outcome, not automatically you as her "rescuer". You aren't responsible for, nor obligated to ensure, her housing situation, nor her financial situation. Please remember, if you didn't exist, if you weren't there to be "Rescuer", then someone else would be there to fill that void, whether your sister, or a local government agency, or your mother herself.
Daughter is absolutely spot-on: just because your mom wants or expects something, doesn't mean it's going to happen.
She can want whatever she wants, but there's this thing called REALITY that often gets in the way. Most of us are accepting of Reality and say, "Oh, crap, but yes, I understand."
But PDs don't think like us. Because they want it, it's GOING to happen - which is why OUR boundaries are so important. :yes:
YOU are the priority in your own life and *your needs come first.* If a need/wish/desire is to NOT be involved in any of this insanity, it's within *your power* to say, "No."
You can do that, as Daughter said, by not responding, verbally or physically. Let her hear crickets. When asked a direct question, stick to Medium Chill and be completely non-committal. :ninja:
Your mother is responsible for herself. Your sister is responsible for herself. You are only responsible for YOU - not either of them, even though you've been programmed your entire life to think otherwise and not have needs.
Again, Daughter is right when she says your mother is responsible for the outcome of her own poor choices. You don't need to "rescue" her or "fix it." SHE made the mess? She can figure out how to clean it up. She's an *adult* - and that's just what adults do.
I think your sister might be the driving force behind this, and she's probably got her own motives, such as you providing *free, 24/7 transportation for BOTH of them, so they can "visit" - which is code for keep you held hostage while they yammer on endlessly about the same old gripes and complaints they always have.* :aaauuugh:
Did THAT scare you? GOOD.
You won't be *allowed* to leave and come back to pick either one of them up - NO! They'll concoct some excuse so you have to stay there and be abused by The Unholy Duo! :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:
And here's the other thing that popped into my head - you said the money will run out in a few years. WHERE do you think your mom is going to be pushing to live, with your sister egging her on and demanding it must be so?
With YOU, of course. :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:
REALLY scared now? You should be - I'd be *very* surprised if your mom and sister haven't already had some variant of a conversation where your sister said, "Don't worry about when the money runs out - Lillith will let you live with her. We'll make her. She won't have a choice. She can take care of both of us. She doesn't have anything better to do, and besides, she owes it to us!" :jawdrop:
I could be wrong, but when something like that pops into my head, I say something. I'd rather have you warned than blindsided. :thumbup:
People like your mom and sister think only of *themselves* and what they're going to get out of a situation -and to hell with everybody else, including you.
And they often do have a bigger, grander plan in their minds - some will outright tell you, "When I'm old, you're going to move me in and take care of me" - but others are more nefarious and sneaky, and I think that might be the case here.
YOU can prevent it all by not getting involved in *any* of it, letting the chips fall where they may, letting your mom make all the bad decisions she wants and NONE of that is your responsibility - or fault.
You've GOT this, Lillith! Stay in the shark cage, where it's safe - and keep your hands and feet inside! 8-)
:hug:
Really want to bug your BPDM, provide her with a list of low income, studio apartments or similar. Her dream of a 3-bedroom house will send her to the heights. Let Sis take of finding her a place. I would immediately put them on block or send to VM.
What can they do? Have a raging fit. If you don't hear it, so what. They can't ground you, take away privileges, take your phone, cut your allowance or anything else. All they can do is try to make you miserable and that is only if you ALLOW them to do so. Your BPDM can move down the block from you. She can sit and stare out her window as you drive by. She can try calling you as the call goes to VM. And you don't see or hear any of it. because you have set yourself free from all entanglements from them.
Lillith, if both mom and sister don't drive, they will have to get off their waif fannies to get to you. This could be a good thing for you. I never suggested or knew anything about updating the technology at my parents' home. I'd read a few stories here of members stalked on social media and by email. If my uBPDmom did not know/have access to technology, she couldn't use it against me. It was a weird boundary, but it did the job protecting me.
If they don't drive, be silent about elder transportation, the bus system, share a ride. Let them continue to be martyrs about lack of transportation, cause that may be what they want anyway.
If you contemplate rattling off the downside of living near you ie - no public transport, high crime, ambulance route, you won't be the first person to do so. I flat out made up stuff to keep my parents from improving the technology they did have. I told them buying new things would summon even more telemarketers.
I've seen the head spinning financial planning in others. A friend of DH couldn't get credit to repair a car he already owned, but could get credit for new vehicle so he bought one. :stars:
Its clever to write all this down. WTG on self help.
Wow. You guys are terrific!
And Woman, God, yes that terrified me! In fact my sis sugested 'as a joke' that I live with my mother because I am single! I managed to say to her and in front of my mother 'That is not going to happen because I don't want to.'
So I need to stick to the program:
VLC, MC, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.
I haven't rung since the house viewing on Thursday and won't be ringing until next Sunday - my scheduled call day.
I'm on holiday this week and haven't told either of them because I knew what would be expected and demanded thrugh FOG.
I can do this!!
Well.....that went well.....or not.
My first mistake was making my 'scheduled' call on Friday instead of Sunday.
My second mistake was thinking that I could handle MC,GR without a refresher course immediately before the call.
My third mistake was getting emotional myself and ending up JADEing before putting the phone down.
My fourth mistake is walking staright back into the FOG.
However, what did come out of it is that I have told my uAPDM that I cannot and will not be involved in her house move or caring for her once she does move.
I feel anxious on your behalf--it sounds horrible!
I live next door to uNBPDmil who faced a health issue this year. We sent flowers, sent cards, and that was it. It was simply the way our relationship IS at this point.
uNBPDm has retired, and now wants a playmate (me) and I'm taking a "no-thanks" pass. I'm not a toy to be abused, thrown away and then picked up when she's bored.
It isn't fun deciding on and holding our boundaries, but it is a fundamental human right to spend our time and energy as we wish and is healthy for us. There's a thread right now about "good mothers don't cause C-PTSD" and it's a good reminder. You're not being cold, hostile or selfish. You are protecting your health that has been severely damaged due to the previous damage.
I have found for myself, after years of healing, that I'm actually willing for more once I've fiercely protected myself long enough to heal. It will never be as much as it used to be, or what they wish it would be, but it is what I can actually offer.
Best wishes!
Just going to put this here to remind myself.
My uAPDM asked if I could go to help her and I said that I couldn't.
I told her that I will not and cannot get involved because of my own health.
Mistake - JADE :sadno:
She said 'What about mine?' and went into how her primary doctor had told her to go to the ER but she couldn't go because she was on her own and had too much to do. (All of which is her choice and does not make any sense as outlined above.)
I asked why it made sense to move close to me when my sister (GC) will be over 10 miles away and does not drive. I asked how things will be different when she moves. I said I thought it was a better idea to be closer to my sister as she was obviously keen to get involved (so she says).
Mistake - referring to reality. :stars:
She started talking about how small the houses are closer to my sister and I said that when her capital runs out (2-3 years) the state will house her in a one bedroom facility of some kind anyway.
Mistake - referring to reality. :stars:
She said that didn't matter because she'd be dead by then and I replied that thinking that is not a good basis for making decisions.
We went round and round in circles for a few minutes.
She asked what else she was supposed to as she is rock bottom and I said that I was sorry and that I know what that is like because I am struggling myself.
Mistake - JADE :no:
Her reply was that I could not possibly know what it feels like so I reminded her about my own health and my experiences of loss in the last year alone.
Mistake - JADE :doh:
Her reply was that I could get over all of that because I hadn't lost a husband and I was younger.
I replied that it wasn't a competition I was letting her know that I know that I have some idea of how she feels.
Mistake - JADE :no:
She repeated 'You haven't lost a husband. You can get over it all. I'm old.'
I got upset at that point and told her that she was not listening to me, neither was my sister and that I knew what they said about me. Next I said that I was not going to be 'drawn into it all' and that my weekly phone call is all I can cope with. I kept repeating 'I can't do it.' inbetween sobs. :sadno:
Mistake - becoming emotional and JADE :no:
Then she switched to 'You're too upset to talk now. We'll talk later.' :doh:
I repeated that I will not get involved and cannot do it and put the phone down.
I was left feeling overwhelmed by guilt and frustration that I had got upset and said so much more than I wanted to. I just wanted to say NO, NO and NO.
Instead I feel as if I played the same game she does - waify/victim - and it makes me so mad. :doh:
I just want to be assert myself. :doh:
Lillith65, I think you did well. You did not promise any activity on your part. You restated your boundary of weekly phone calls. You are very clear on which parts of the conversation you would like to change. Learn and go forward. If any of us could get this right the first time, we wouldn't be here.
I did have a commiserating chuckle at your - "mistake - referring to reality." I remember those days very well.
Lilith, I love your username. I also believe you did it very well. Think of it this way: she got no more from you. No more promises, no more involvement. You resisted! I'd drink to that!
I agree with LightOrb - you resisted, promised her nothing and restated your boundaries. I'd call that a SUCCESS! :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
I was also chuckling at "mistake - referring to reality." Yes, I remember those days FAR too well! :wacko:
If you need to, copy and paste the section on Medium Chill to your computer, laptop or tablet and have it open, in front of you, before you call. :yes:
I wrote down MC phrases and walked around the house practicing them, so they sounded natural. I'm surprised our cats don't think I'm nuts. (They very well may, but know who feeds them. :bigwink:) I never thought I could successfully MC unBPD Didi, but once I did and it worked - I kept at it and got *much* more comfortable with it.
I needed those phrases in front of my face when I'd call Didi, too - they were my crutch, for a while - and there's no shame in using a crutch. :)
On that MC page, leave yourself a big, bold reminder:
NO JADE
NO EMOTIONS
"NO" is a complete sentence.
If you were upset during this call, chances are getting angry is coming sooner than later - once they make you angry, MC/Grey Rock become *really* easy - because you just don't *care* how she feels, since she obviously doesn't care about you.
I'd consider this call a "practice run" and an experiment, rolled into one: the experiment was JADE, and realizing she doesn't live in reality as you or I know it, so MC/GR is all you have left to work with.
I used to occasionally JADE, just to remind myself unBPD Didi and unNPD really did have all the problems I thought they had, and I wasn't crazy. I'd call those situations "controlled experiments" - the JADE wouldn't be too damaging to me, and I was only doing it to see what I'd get back.
I felt more like an anthropologist than a daughter, talking to her disordered parents, but those experiments reinforced *it wasn't me.* :thumbup:
Here's a couple for, "You haven't lost a husband. You can get over it. I'm old."
Try: What an interesting observation - it changes nothing. I'm not getting involved in your move.
That sounds like something you'd say - and it changes nothing. I'm not getting involved in your move.
If she repeats it, state, "I heard you the first time, it changes nothing, and if you're just going to repeat things you've already said, I'm hanging up" - and do just that, if she does.
If you run into situations where you're not sure HOW to MC her, run it by the forum and I'm sure you'll get a custom MC response, tailored to the situation.
We do aim to please! ;D
Keep at it! It gets easier once you realize, "Oh my God - you mean that WORKED!?" :woohoo:
Rome was not built in a day - you're going against programming that was installed in you since you were very small, and it feels WRONG - but it *isn't.*
You've GOT this, Lillith!
:hug:
It means so much to me to be understood and to be reminded of the tools to recovery.
I guess you all know how it feels to be around people who know what elderly PD parents are like and not to be confronted with incomprehension and that horrible statement 'But she's your mother!'
You also know how difficult it is to explain the history and the dynamics of your relationship.
Reading all of your posts is exactly what I need and this morning I had an epiphany:
I don't want to be around people who hurt me
It really is that simple.
You did great! Huge leaps ahead where you were and definitely as Woman Interrupted said your feeling anger is coming sooner. This getting in touch with anger sooner, at lower levels, is good. Learning to respond to your emotions at lower levels is awesome.
"You also know how difficult it is to explain the history and the dynamics of your relationship." The beauty of this forum is that no explanation is needed, none. We all know and understand even if the specific details are different the general dynamic runs the same pattern.
:hug: be gene.with yourself. You're doing great.
Your mother will respond with anger and hostility when you don't comply to her expectations and demands. Expect this response. But facing this response means you're actually maintaining your boundaries, responding to your own needs, and refusing to comply to her emotional blackmail. It may get loud, but you're making lots of progress.
Lilith, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. It all sounded very familiar. It is awful to be so invalidated by your M, all the dismissal of your problems simply because you are not old and your partner's not dead.
My M did that all the time before I went NC. The first time I ever got the nerve to hang up on her was the day she told me that my life isn't real and that my problems are not real problems. "Put 30 years on you and see how you do with that!" was said to me, often. I was often told that I can't possibly understand what she's going through, and that someday I'll be old and my partner will be dead and no one will want to have anything to do with me, and then, maybe THEN, I will understand in some small way how much pain she's in all the time. :(
I have mental health issues of my own, which is why I ended up going NC, and I know I can never explain to her why I went NC because she thinks that because I am only in my 40s, I can't possibly have any needs, and that I shouldn't have to take care of my health. It is maddening.
For the record, I think you did really well! We are all going to make mistakes as we learn how to deal with our PD parents, and how to protect ourselves.
Stasia,
They really do have the same playbook don't they?
I am on the verge of NC for similar reasons to yours and many others on this forum.
Thank you for sharing what you are experiencing, it is uncannily similar to my uPD mum.
She made suicide threats too. Often. Yet when her sister, my aunt, took an overdose trying to kill herself, my mum was furious. Saying how selfish it was of her sister as she had kids.
Eventually I went NC, it got to where there was no other way. An enormous relief to me.
Final straw being her trying to push my husband over! :stars:
Please protect yourself from this stress.
It is uncanny isn't it?
I am so sorry that you have endured this too.
I was relieved when my uNPDF died - he could be so horrible - inbetween the nice periods when he was getting his own way.
I think NC is the only answer for me now.
My uPDM's moving date was yesterday. I spent the weekend and yesterday wondering how it was going and whether my mother was OK.
I was also anxious that a member of my extended family would get in touch to pull me back in, but the distance between my immediate family (uPDM, uBPDS) and the extended family has made this less likely.
It is so strange to think that I have no way of finding out where she is or how things went and to think that I am not going to make my usual phonecall or see my uBPDS.
So my uPDM did get control back with her horrible phonecall on Thursday. I feel ambivalent about the NC: it is a relief, but I also feel abandoned and excluded. The latter feeling is because I still have fantasies about how it could be.
Feeling very sad today.
Lots of other reasons, but my FOO's behaviour is at the root of it all.
I am not surprised you feel sad (hugs) This move must spin you into emotional flashbacks. Are you at work? Today is a good day for some self-care.
At one point my uBPD ex-friend returned to his home state at the behest of his family, my MIL said he was moving somewhere closer to me some time after we got him out of our home. I don't know if he really did move closer to us, or was just saying it for attention. I never crossed paths with him again after he left.
Quote from: Sun on May 24, 2018, 09:46:55 AM
I am not surprised you feel sad (hugs) This move must spin you into emotional flashbacks. Are you at work? Today is a good day for some self-care.
Flashbacks and a sense of dread. I felt 5 years old again.
No contact feels like a reprieve - although it is also sad because I know that things will never change.
Quote from: Frazzled on May 24, 2018, 12:49:28 PM
At one point my uBPD ex-friend returned to his home state at the behest of his family, my MIL said he was moving somewhere closer to me some time after we got him out of our home. I don't know if he really did move closer to us, or was just saying it for attention. I never crossed paths with him again after he left.
I have no idea whether my mother has moved or not. I don't really want to know. Its bad enough that my sister and her family live in a town that I often visit.
They have no idea what effect they have on other people.
Quote from: Lillith65 on May 25, 2018, 01:45:48 PM
Quote from: Frazzled on May 24, 2018, 12:49:28 PM
At one point my uBPD ex-friend returned to his home state at the behest of his family, my MIL said he was moving somewhere closer to me some time after we got him out of our home. I don't know if he really did move closer to us, or was just saying it for attention. I never crossed paths with him again after he left.
I have no idea whether my mother has moved or not. I don't really want to know. Its bad enough that my sister and her family live in a town that I often visit.
They have no idea what effect they have on other people.
They probably also don't care.
Fantastic article on this site: https://www.healingfromcomplextraumaandptsd.com/trauma-bonding
It argues that no contact is the only solution to dealing abusive parents. It is also very positive about those of us who have survived (and even thrived) abusive parents. The articla labels them as psychopathic, but I think it applies to many PDs too.
Lilith65, thank you for the article! I read everything I can on the subject even though I am read Pete Walker's book.
Lilleth65 - is there a reason that your sister cant learn to drive? Surely she can invest some time and effort to support your mother :bigwink:
Quote from: Happypants on June 11, 2018, 04:32:58 AM
Lilleth65 - is there a reason that your sister cant learn to drive? Surely she can invest some time and effort to support your mother :bigwink:
I suspect it is because then she would be expected to do things that she doesn't want to do. But let's not say that outloud :tongue2:
Hi Lilith, just read all of this and think you are doing great, sounds really hard. My PD / En father tried this, moved close by into sheltered housing but after a while when he realised I wasn't going to look after him, he moved away again, this time closer to my brother. You never know yours might too! PS I know that sinking feeling when they do this, it feels like you have no choice. Mine turned up with nothing and to start with I got him a flannel and toothbrush! But when he needed to cope alone he moved away. Kind thoughts.
Thanks Orangeblossom.
She will have to move fairly soon anyway (part of the ridiculousness of her decision) as the money will run out and the DSS will not pay rent on a large, three bedroomed house for a single woman.
Part of my fury is the sense of being manipulated into being the main carer - no discussion, no openness, just relying in FOG.
Well done for staying strong with your PD/EN F! We can do this! 💪🏻
There will be more suitable accommodation available, to downsize to, doesn't mean she has to move to you...yes I know what you mean. I also had my UPD mum (separated from dad) also separately want to move to me as well! I'm now NC with both of them (and still nervous about the idea of it. Here in the UK they can apply for council housing close to relatives- a 'family connection' if they are poor and in need of state support. So they know this and use it. I even called the council to try and prevent it. Sigh. I hope at least now thy might have the message I'm not caring for them if they do move so that will be enough to put them off. Kind thoughts.
Kind thoughts to you too.
I think about the situation everyday, but know that I have to be NC for own health and sanity. My FOO have no interest or understanding of my needs so I have to protect myself - it is difficult though.
I also find it hard listening to friends talking about their elderly parents - who can be challenging, but are not PD - I stay quiet during those discussions although they do know my circumstances. What about you?
Yes, I find that also. I'm getting to the age where friends have parents getting sick or older - one died, their mum and it is hard to try and empathise when not in the same place. I think you are also in the UK, well your mum should be able to get over 55s housing if she wants to. It doesn't need to be near family I think could be near to where she stays already. My mum refuses though and stays in her cottage paid for by DSS in the middle of nowhere. :wacko:
Yes, there are lots of options for my mother but she is obsessed with having a three bedroomed house. Completely fixated which is causing her lots of problems.
I've been sad over the last few days and wishing things could be different.
How are you?
I'm not too bad, back on my antidepressants again which help a little. Struggling with FOG a bit. It's hard as my uPD mum stays away in this cottage (a bit like yours, I think, has 3 beds and refuses to move somewhere smaller) and it's in the middle of no-where. Seems to see no-one and go nowhere. Then my en Dad (divorced) sends messages about her not being able to shop etc.
I sent her (anonymously) some info from nearby (to her) sheltered housing. Then my dad said she was looking at somewhere near him (yes, I thought!) and then, said she is thinking of moving to some random village miles away as it is 'by the sea' :blink: As long as it isn't here, I thought.
A few years back she applied to stay in this place in my town which is a kind of religious refuge for 'older women of limited means'. I don;t think they accepted her application though. She only told me of it after applying. I know, she (and my dad, separately) got on the housing list / leaflet service of my local council too. It's all a bit worrying.
I'm finding my ignoring them it seems to be making them look elsewhere. Or well at least not bothering me as much. I hope this are going OK with you as well.
Things are going OK because I am no contact. Still FOGgy though.
It's a strange feeing. I also feel that if I were to contact them (my UPDS and UPDM) it would reinforce that I am in the wrong and would be expected to apologise and 'make it up'. My family blame everything on me amd I just want to keep away from it all.
Quote from: Lillith65 on July 10, 2018, 04:46:09 PM
Things are going OK because I am no contact. Still FOGgy though.
It's a strange feeing. I also feel that if I were to contact them (my UPDS and UPDM) it would reinforce that I am in the wrong and would be expected to apologise and 'make it up'. My family blame everything on me amd I just want to keep away from it all.
I totally get that, F would see me reaching out as something I owed him because I screwed up and also confirm that he is tougher, has an iron mind. Really sad :bighug: . Staying away ends up being the best choice. I also find that the FOG is less now than before, or at least that my life is calmer - I might have FOGgy days but they are drama free at least and that is a lot.
Quote from: practical on July 10, 2018, 05:12:54 PM
I totally get that, F would see me reaching out as something I owed him because I screwed up and also confirm that he is tougher, has an iron mind. Really sad. Staying away ends up being the best choice. I also find that the FOG is less now than before, or at least that my life is calmer - I might have FOGgy days but they are drama free at least and that is a lot.
Drama free means such a lot after decades of crises and upsets which were almost entirely generated by them.
The foggy moments occur most often when I hear about other peoples' families or think about what society expects.
It's just so sad. In this last year I have lost so much, (moved house three times, made redundant from my 17 year teaching post, lost my home, broke up with a man I thought was the love of my life (another abuser), my UNPDF died).
I am no longer being abused though - so that is a big gain. Recovery feels a very long way off though.
I get it, I also get more guilt in particular when others say about their parents etc especially since the NC...and as they get older as well. I've even been avoiding some old friends because of it. It's not easy.
Quote from: Orangeblossom77 on July 11, 2018, 03:16:29 PM
I get it, I also get more guilt in particular when others say about their parents etc especially since the NC...and as they get older as well. I've even been avoiding some old friends because of it. It's not easy.
I become the 'silent woman' when my friends start talking about their elderly parents. I am sensitive around one in particular because her father was physically abusive (one of her sisters is NC) and she chooses to care for him. Occasionally she has talked about her sister and how she does not understand why she is NC. I have shared my perspective then and explained how siblings can have a very different experience of a parent. I also think she is enmeshed and codepedent (as I was) and that helps me to deal with it.
I wonder how many people are in this position but don't share it?
I hope that no-one minds me resurrecting my 'old' thread. It helps to post and to try and get stuff out of my head.
I've been feeling guilty and sad recently. The image of my mother as a sad little old lady who is intensely lonely keeps coming into my mind.
I'm starting to think that maybe things weren't that bad and may be I could handle the craziness of my mother and sister with stronger boundaries. Maybe they would treat me better after this period of NC?
And then I remember all of the years of lying, manipulation and outright abuse. All the years of denying my own needs to look after myself and treating me as someone at their beck and call with no right to any feelings or preferences of my own.
And then I swing back to thinking about the good times with my mother and wishing that we could have a genuine, sincere reconciliation before she dies.
Then I recall that my feelings are strongly influenced by the FOG and feel sad that I can't have a loving, open and mutually respectful relationship with either my mother or my sister.
This is so hard. Especially on top of other experiences that I have had in the last couple of years. I no longer feel quite as devastated, but that feeling is not far off.
Perhaps this should be in my journal and not on here, but I am so tired of having a dialogue of one.
Anyway, to anyone who has read this. Thank you.
I don't mind at all Lillith! Type away, it helps me to read the experiences of others. Our experiences are so similar and I get strength and ideas from what others share here.
I just replied about me breaking NC on the Going NC with a PD parent forum, look for the topic "How do you cope" by sidney. I felt the EXACT same way as you, my poor little mother, sad and distraught. I broke NC due to the guilt. I thought she was at home crying, come to find out she's going out with acquaintances in her retirement community, bitterly complaining about them, stalking family on social media and more. You know the same old bad behavior towards others as always. I mean deep down, I didn't figure she'd change completely but I had hoped she'd take this drastic step as a wake up call for her behavior. Uh yeah right :roll:
I am feeling the same thing as you are. Please keep sharing.
QuoteI've been feeling guilty and sad recently. The image of my mother as a sad little old lady who is intensely lonely keeps coming into my mind.
just remember that picture is in your own mind. It's a version of what may or may not be reality. It is not real. If it resembles any part of what maybe this person's reality it is only because that is what they created and made of their life and has nothing to do with whether or not you are in it or not.
QuoteMaybe they would treat me better after this period of NC?
in my experience the reason for this is because we have changed, we have distanced ourselves from the trauma experienced on a sometimes daily basis. For that reason we think things in general have changed when in reality nothing has changed. The only thing that has changed is that we are not subjecting ourselves to abuse on a constant daily basis so we tend to forget what it would be like if we were exposed to the same people on a daily basis or more frequent basis.
Henerally my experience and reading hear others experience is that whenever we have contact there will be damage. Somewhere in a book I read we need to know we are dealing with a brutal set of conditions, prepare for and make time for healing after.
Even if an encounter or contact situation goes well we're on high alert, in constant flight mode, anticipating a sudden shift and an abusive eruption so the cortisol is streaming and the body is ready for the entire time even if the abusive person is on good behavior.