Out of the FOG

Coping with Personality Disorders => Dealing with PD Parents => Topic started by: Dinah-sore on August 11, 2018, 12:42:52 AM

Title: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Dinah-sore on August 11, 2018, 12:42:52 AM
Another thing I need to work through--I am triggered by my OWN anger.

Being raised by BPDm I was never allowed to be angry (unless I had to be angry about something she was angry about). And if I ever had a legitimate reason to be angry, I was told I was wrong for it, misperceiving things, or sometimes accused of lying about things like this.

So my DD comes home from a youth group retreat early, because a boy at the retreat made her feel uncomfortable. He was following her around, looking in her cabin window, and he touched/squeezed her boob in the pool while they played marco pollo (even though she tried to keep someone else in between her and him the whole time). He also wore goggles and would swim under the water around my DD's legs and bottom area. She kept trying to get away from him. finally she got out of the pool. But then he would follow her other places. She called and told me she was uncomfortable. So I drove up the mountain and picked her up.

A week later at church two of her youth leaders told her that she shouldn't have left early, that "God wanted her to have stayed." Then when they asked her why she left and my DD told them what happened with the boy they told her that "it was probably an accident that he touched your boob." When she said, that her gut told her it wasn't an accident, they said, "You can't trust your feelings, you can only trust God." Then they told her, "You can't tell anyone what you think this boy did, because you need to protect his reputation." Then they told her to stop joking around with her friends that are boys because she is probably giving them the wrong impression.

So here I am. LIVID. My church just did everything wrong when it comes to sexual harassment. What ever happened to, "If someone touches you in an inappropriate place, tell somebody." ????

My DD is really upset about it. She feels like they failed her. She wasn't going around telling anyone what happened, by her own choice. She told me, and I believed her and listened. I was angry at the boy, and told her to always trust her gut. Most women can tell the difference between an accidental boob touch and something intentional. Plus this boy is about 3 years older than her. Why was he following her, looking in her window, and not leaving her alone in the pool. I am actually just as angry as the youth group leaders as I am with him.

I am triggered by my anger though. I haven't done anything yet, but sit here and stew. But my heart is racing, I can't breathe. I am so afraid that if I talk to the leaders they will deny speaking those things. I am so afraid if I confront this boy, through his parents that he will just say. "It was an accident." Of course he will. I have had the EXACT same thing happen to me (repeatedly). I am so afraid of my DD thinking that next time someone touches her, that she can't reach out for help because people will blame her, not believe her, or silence her.

I am not saying that she should publicly shame this boy. But she needs to stay away from him, and her leaders in the youth group should know so that they can watch him around her, keep him away, and talk to him if something happens again. Right? Why couldn't they support her, empathise, comfort her, pray with her. Tell her to always listen to her gut, and stay away from people who touch you. And tell someone. Am I off?

I know that ALL of my problems in this moment have everything to do with some arrested development from when I was growing up. I am so afraid to speak to these people. I am planning to talk to the leaders. I am not sure if I should talk to the boy or his parents though (or wait to see if he keeps following her). I am clueless. I am afraid of them not hearing me. Even though I am twice their age. And why won't my DH step in and help me navigate this. He acts like he agrees with me, but he is so passive. He has dropped this in my lap.

I will do it, because my DD needs someone to have her back. But I am so afraid that if the conversation goes bad, that I won't be able to speak, or I will freeze, or what if I get upset? What if I loose my temper and say upset words or in an upset tone.

Help me please. Can I get a little re-parenting? I am not seeing a T right now, but I need one. My old T told me that she would re-parent me, or teach me the things my parents should have. But could you guys give me some advice on how to navigate this? I am bouncing back and forth from panic attacks and then deep dissociation. I am a mess. Please help me process this. Please help walk me through the thinking and the acting. I feel all alone. I want to do the right thing.

My DD is the best kid. It kills me that she went through this, and then I feel was spiritually abused by her church afterwards.

I know though, that this is from my BPDm invalidating ME and doing the same crap to me when I was DD's age. :( I am really sad. I never learned the right way to handle this stuff.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: broken on August 11, 2018, 01:32:25 AM
Their response is not only appalling, it is illegal.  He may claim it was an accident, but how about following her and looking in her window? Was that an accident too?

If you assert yourself in this situation, it may feel unnatural at first, but I promise you it will be worth it.  When I finally started to stand up for myself I felt a strange disassociation, almost an out of body experience. It was the best thing I ever did and the first step in finally building my self-esteem. 
We children of PDs have to teach ourselves that we have the right to feel injustice when we are mistreated. You'll feel confidence over treating your daughter that she is NOT invisible and that others have no right to abuse her.

You may want to go straight to the top of the organization in this instance, perhaps even to the police.  This group has a responsibility to keep ALL of the children safe, and this boy's behavior is very likely to escalate into a predator.

Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: D.Dan on August 11, 2018, 01:34:36 AM
I'm sorry this happened to your daughter and I 'm not sure I'll be of any help because this is making me feel  :hulk: !

Your anger is telling you something! This was completely wrong! First a boy is displaying creepy, disturbing behaviour towards your daughter (when this was first occurring, it would have been a good time for her to ask/tell him to stop the behaviour because it makes her uncomfortable, then tell youth leaders if it continues), then he sexually assaults her (he would have to have been trying to grab something else in order to get an accidental boob squeeze, I would trust your daughter on this), then the youth leaders try to cover it up and dismiss her experience to protect the perpetrator thereby revictimizing her!

Your anger is justified! The only thing I can think of is to go to the person in charge. When that fails go higher. I don't know if there is anyone in the church system to makes sure things are run appropriately at each church, otherwise I would go to the police and ask them what to do. Are there any help phone lines that you could call for advice in your area? Where I live, there is an emergency counselling phone line that used to be a suicide line. Even child protective services might be an option.

I'm sorry I have no other ideas  :hug:

At this point, I would make sure your daughter is not revictimized further by these people. This is horrible.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: WomanInterrupted on August 11, 2018, 01:49:21 AM
Dinah Sore, you're not the only one who is angry - I'm livid FOR you!   >:(

Haven't the leaders of the group been following the news, and heard about, "Me, Too" and "Time's Up"?   :stars:

Women are SPEAKING.  Women are being *believed.*  *Predators* are being called out for their bad behavior, which now has *consequences.*   :yes:

What I'd do is write a letter, putting them on notice that your daughter was *sexually harassed* and *sexually abused* by a boy 3 years her senior and it should NOT be treated as "boys will be boys" or swept under the rug to protect HIS reputation.  He needs to be held *accountable* for his behavior, and at least owes your DD an apology!

State what happened when your DD reported the incident and how she was treated - name them!  They owe her an apology, too! 

Take your time crafting your letter - you don't want your anger coming out in it, but you want the *facts known* and *actions taken* to prevent it from happening to anybody else.

I'd give copies of the letter to the leaders of the group, and those in charge at your church.  This is 2018 - NOT 1950, and boys aren't allowed to "just be boys" anymore.  Things have changed - and it's about damned time!   :yahoo:

I think I'd also include something about "at this time, we are not seeking to press charges, if all those involved apologize to DD, and actions are taken to prevent future occurrences.  Women and girls need to feel SAFE in church, and at church-related functions/activities - and not blamed when a predator behaves inappropriately."

BTW - if you see anything you like in this post, g'head and use it.   8-)

This is the part you need to think very seriously about - if they react unfavorably, and stick up for the boy, and give you a bunch of nonsense about your "overreaction" - what do you plan to do?

Personally, I'd find another church that doesn't condone abuse and harassment of *anyone* and is more with the times - and a *lot* less judgmental about *your DD's actions*.

I wouldn't be able to support a church that didn't support me, and told me I was blowing things out of proportion - or that God wanted me to stay at that camp.

How do *they* know what God wants, and isn't it a SIN to presume to know the mind of God?   :snort:

What do you plan to do if it blows back on you and you and your DD are asked to leave the church?

I think that may be a distinct possibility - and it might be good for you, in the long run.

While it would be preferable that your DH sign the letter, too - it's not necessary - but, unfortunately, they may take it a bit more seriously if a *man* also agrees with you.  (I hate that I just typed that sentence!)   :barfy:

But that means your DH will have to make a decision - side with the abusers and silence, or side with DD and what is RIGHT.

Jesus would side with DD, and not her *oppressors.*

It's up to you, but if I were in your shoes, I'd make a formal complaint, keep copies of everything, and if nothing is done, take it to the police and let *them* investigate.

I also wasn't allowed to be angry - but I've accepted my anger as a catalyst for change and for *good.*  I try not to get angry for no reason, or little reasons - today, I had to wait over an hour to see a vet, and I was *annoyed* - but not angry.  Irritated.  Wishing they had better chairs.   :doh:

But when I'm *angry* - something is *wrong* and I perceive injustice, or an attack upon my autonomy (unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray) - in recognizing it, I can *do* something about it.   :yes:

And you can, too - if you choose to make a formal complaint.

Thank you for believing your DD and not telling her that old line of codswallop, "It just means he LIKES you!"

No, it doesn't - boys and men who like us don't *prey upon us.*   >:(

 :hug:
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Dinah-sore on August 11, 2018, 02:02:27 AM
Oh my gosh thank you all so much for your replies!!!! You have no idea how much this means to me.

Okay, so I also need to admit something that makes going to the leadership complicated. And I am very confused and actually think this triggers me as well. My DH is actually employed by the school that this church is affiliated with. He is on staff. Technically, this is his job. He knows what happened. He has spoken to and disciplined other boys who have done this stuff to other girls. He knows what happened. He has made no attempt to contact the boy or the parents. He is doing nothing.

So the person I would need to go to is happens to be my DH. How much does that suck????????

And this also triggers me because he had a family member who also touched my boobs repeatedly and acted like it was an accident, and my DH knew, and my DH did nothing to protect me. So he protects other kids, but not me and not DD.

I didn't know how to write that, without giving out so much information that I felt like it could identify us (you know how on here we are supposed to give enough details to get help and advice, without giving enough details to be identified ***that is always hard for me***). Well, yeah, so my DH told me that I should go and talk to the leaders, but these leaders are actually also employed UNDER him. Why doesn't he want to deal with this? On the other hand, I am afraid of him not dealing with it correctly. So that is why this fell on my lap. Also, he has made no mention of any plans of dealing with this young boy that he also knows from being a student at the school he works at. Even though it is all the same organization, and he regularly counsels students.

Can you help me process this mess too?????

I kind of want to punch the wall when I let myself feel how /worthless/ my husband's actions make me feel.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Dinah-sore on August 11, 2018, 02:11:50 AM
I guess I am also wondering, is it okay that I am upset with DH too?

Either way, I really am. Even if I am wrong. If I am wrong I will try not to be upset with him.

Do normal father's want to protect their DD's? I see that on TV shows, the "overprotective dad" concept. Is that how most dad's are? or is that unusual?

See, on TV usually husbands and dads seem to want to protect their family. So I don't know if that is just on TV and I am expecting too much?

But I know DH will do that for other students in the school, and then act all brave and macho about it. But he is doing nothing for his daughter, and not having anyone else do anything either. I think he is just ignoring it, and hoping it will all go away. But I don't like the message that sends to the boy, or to my DD. See I don't know, because my dad never protected me either. I mean he will take my side, but never do anything to stop anything or deal with anything.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Associate of Daniel on August 11, 2018, 02:49:43 AM
I'm so sorry this is happening to you and your daughter, Dinah sore.

Can you detach slightly and see your DH's situation as a "Conflict of Interest"?

I'm not saying he shouldn't be acting to defend his daughter. But to take an example from the business world, when a conflict of interest arises, an appeal is made to a higher authority, or at the least,  someone else takes on the role.

Can you think of anyone higher up the chain who you could report this to? That would then free up your DH to support your daughter without being conflicted in his role.

Hopefully he will step up soon to do so.

AOD
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Dinah-sore on August 11, 2018, 02:58:42 AM
I also want to clarify. I really don't want anything "bad" to happen to the boy. It just would be nice for him to know that we watch over our DD and she is not an easy target for future stuff. I do think my DH's employees, the leaders should be better trained, not to say those things to anyone.

My DH doesn't want us to go higher up the chain, he just wants me to talk to the leaders, and tell them how I feel. And I will, but I am so worried about how that will go. And he wants to just leave the boy alone.

I get that it could be a conflict of interest. But I feel also, that in some ways he isn't even acting like a lot of dad's I know would act. Other dads of girls in the youth group have been more upset with stuff like this.

So I am sitting here, I feel alone in this. And I am trying to come up with what I am going to say to these young girls. I don't want to burn any bridges, and I don't want them to feel on the defensive. But this issue is so serious. I just really hope they will listen and take this seriously. I just am going to have to deal with this on my own.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Dinah-sore on August 11, 2018, 03:09:52 AM
I wonder if I have fallen into what Pete Walker calls an "emotional flashback"?

I feel so small, and powerless. I feel intense fear. I feel younger and clueless.  I wonder if this situation has triggered my own C-PTSD, because I am feeling all the emotions that I felt back when I was in my DD's situation.

Woah. That just dawned on me.

That is probably why I feel afraid of 25 year olds who told my DD bad advice. Like they represent to me, authority figures in my own life who failed me.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: WomanInterrupted on August 11, 2018, 03:33:12 AM
Oh honey, I'm so sorry!   :bighug:

My DH was raised in a PD home (unNPD MIL, unBPD SFIL, unBPD/NPD and possibly psychopath SBIL - the golden child).  He was the scapegoat.  His 'tude was always to keep your head down, mouth shut, and shut up.

And he was also very big on addressing injustice with everybody else - when it came to me, I was alone on an ice floe, looking out for myself.

I *strongly* recommend you read Boundaries In Marriage, by Cloud and Townsend - and ask your DH to read it.

If he's the Head of the Household, he's going about it all WRONG.  He needs to be reliable, honest, trustworthy, just, and fair - not picking and choosing his battles, and letting the rest fall on your plate, then rolling his eyes because YOU said it, or SHE said it (considers you "unreliable witnesses" who make mountains out of molehills about EVERYTHING! - even though you *don't.*), or it might cause problems for him.

A REAL man stands up and does what's right.  A REAL man has your back.  He's your soft place to land, somebody you can depend on to do the right thing, and your rock when times are hard.

He doesn't just stick his head in the sand and say, "La la la la, I can't heeeeaaaar you!"

My DH now *mostly* has my back and supports my decisions.  He doesn't dismiss me - I'm not a complainer.  If I tell him the car is acting weird and needs to go to the shop, he no longer blows me off - it goes to the shop, and the problem gets fixed.

He doesn't issue statements like, "You can't drive it more than 40 miles or the tires will BLOW UP!" - then forget he said it, deny he said it, pretend I never said anything, and I go out to a flat tire in the driveway that is *somehow my fault* for not doing some magic something - after putting 2,000 miles on the car!

I don't blow off his stuff - he's getting a lot better about not blowing off my stuff and *listening when I talk* instead of hearing me like Charlie Brown's teacher in the background.

When a church teaches that a man is the head of his household, he has to be *responsible* for it -  protecting, loving and nurturing it, every step of the way.  He justly and calmly addresses transgressions of the rules, and *doesn't ignore that members of that family are in pain or suffering.*

Your DH is woefully lacking - and that really can't continue.  It erodes your trust. 

When trust is gone, there's really not a lot left.

Your DH needs to be an example of what TO do -  he needs to be open to the idea of change, and picking those bloody fleas off himself, to become a better person and a more grounded, loving and stable partner and father - not that guy who blew her off, didn't listen, sided with her ABUSER, and did nothing.

UnNPD Ray did nothing for 53 years.  He just let things slide, I was always wrong, I couldn't do a single thing right, everything was my fault, I deserved what I got, I SHOULD have...   :blahblahblah:

I'm NC.  I decided when I was 30-ish that the minute I could shove this nice, decent Catholic family man into a nursing home and walk away, I was going to do it - when you're 30 and *just* are starting to see how badly you were treated, you think of it as punishment, and a small part of me does - that little girl he never protected calls it Monster Jail.

So does the 53-year-old woman.  He's where he needs to be - and I had the ironic misfortune of protecting the man whose motto was basically, "Do what you want to the girl and leave me alone!  I didn't do it!  It wasn't me!  I wasn't even there!  BAD GIRL!  See what you did!?  You don't think!  You make me look bad!  Oh, you're REALLY in trouble now!"   :aaauuugh:

He's in a safe environment, and frankly, I have no F's to G.   He just tuned 90, with a "celebration" in his room, and "gifts" of items from deceased residents - if he got any at all.    :Idunno:

If *that's* how your DH wants your DD to think of him in years to come - hey, you be you!  Don't change a thing.   :thumbdown:

But if your DH would like a daughter who actually loves him and thinks of him fondly - he's got to make some changes.

You're doing the right things - your DH is NOT.

 :hug:
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: daughter on August 11, 2018, 10:28:18 AM
(Weird italics that I can't seem to fix...)

The camp counselors and camp leadership did fail to address this situation, and I would call the camp leader to describe situation, the lack of awareness of adults/counselors, the inappropriateness of both their initial lack of intervention and adequate supervision of activities, as well as their "give it to God" subsequent bone-headed follow-up response. 

Okay, that's first step.  But your next steps are to: 1) counsel your daughter that in future she is empowered to say, loudly, "leave me alone; don't touch me", as often as she feels appropriate, and to immediately go talk to a supervisory adult, to report that inappropriate behavior; 2) re-evaluate whether this particular church's expectations (and camp atmosphere) meets your new awareness, your new empowerment and unwillingness to quietly tolerate (and thus enable) other people's bad behavior and inappropriate expectations.

The response your daughter received from youth leaders is grossly inappropriate.  I'd also discuss their response with their supervisors, noting inappropriateness of this pseudo-reprimand to DD for leaving early, its scoffingly casual excusing of bad behavior, and the absence of any genuine accountability for allowing a harassment situation to occur.  Not knowing how old your DD is (young, as I recall), not knowing how old the boy is (middle-schooler, if not younger?), to me biggest failure are the grown-ups' and camp counselors' inadequate supervision of the kids under their care.

Unfortunately the organizational rules and hierarchy of religions are often used to maintain control over their followers, and therefore, often also enable bad behavior to occur without ramifications, and with "guilting/shaming" of victims of bad behavior of others.  Recent Bill Hybels scandal, of multiple-cases of sexual-harassment during his years of pastorship at nationally-acclaimed Willow Creek Church in Illinois, for instance, is an example of such "closed-eye" tolerance of obvious inappropriate behavior and "shaming into silence" of his victims.

And if your DH is complicit here, via his silence and passiveness, then you've another big issue to address and resolve.  Becoming OOTF often has ramifications upon many non-FOO related aspects of our lives, including our DHs' complicity in tolerating (read: "allowing") various forms of abusive behavior to occur, whether towards us or our children, in the guise of "come along to get along", and "it's not a big deal; let's not make a fuss", and "I'm not sticking my neck out here". 

Me, I'd tell DD to be vocal about her distress in such situations in future, and to complain loudly in future if there are other unpleasant encounters with this boy or other boys/men.  But not knowing boy's age, it might have been "inappropriate expression of interest" (yes, that happens with young boys, who view it as "teasing"), or it might have been "harassment".  Not that it matters to your daughter, because it made your daughter uncomfortable, but relative youth of boy might be another factor here.  So I'd perhaps give the boy the "benefit of doubt" this first time (not the counselors, not the youth-group folks), and only formally intervene (whether with principal of school, or church youth-group leader) in future if it occurs again.  Yes, however, your DH could say to the boy, even now, "X is my daughter, don't you ever bother her again like you did at camp". 
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: all4peace on August 11, 2018, 12:48:31 PM
I'm sorry for this really upsetting situation, sorry that your daughter was harassed in this way, that your DH is unable to address it directly, and that it's understandably triggering you because of your trauma history.

I would like to suggest taking some time to soothe yourself, deep breathe, calm your inner voice in nature, or whatever works for you to get as calm as you are able to.

Then I would advocate for having a very clear and calm conversation with your DD in which you make sure she understands that you completely believe her, completely support her and you support/comfort her in the way she may need at that time. Unfortunately, the real world will always include people who violate one another, and institutions who protect the perpetrators, and you can explain that to her, and how unjust it is, but that you will always believe her even if others don't. Her feelings DO matter, and her gut instinct is something she can listen to and trust, even when others fight that in her.

I wonder if there's a way to address this with the boy's family in a way that doesn't overly shame him, but also lets him know his behavior isn't appropriate.

Safety and protection are things I'm working through in my marriage right now. My DH comes from a family in which even HAVING needs of your own gets you shunned, much less expressing them or moving into a place of protection regarding the family. And so my DH also has no idea whatsoever how to protect his kids or wife, or to even SEE the violations/threats to us. This is the work of therapy, working through the trauma, developing a sense of self, sense of partnership, sense of family, and sense of protection.

You're in mama bear mode, and that's appropriate. Now just soak up all this wisdom, center yourself, find calm and be that rock that your daughter needs right now. Hugs to you, mama.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Dinah-sore on August 11, 2018, 05:34:38 PM
Woman Interrupted, thank you sooooooooo much for your comment. Sometimes I feel like wanting his support may be asking too much. It is that little girl inside of me that thinks if I want to eat dinner tonight, while mom is binge drinking, I am bothering her and being selfish. I always ask myself, "Is this selfish? Am I asking too much?" I was literally just sitting here trying to coach myself by saying, "Pretend you are a single mom, and then take care of your kid. Pretend like you don't 'need' a man to help you. Be a strong woman." As I sit here literally shaking from this emotional flashback that feels like a panic attack that has not ended since last night.

Daughter, thank you so much for the advice. I am going to make sure I remind her to speak up loudly the next time this happens. I did tell her that unfortunately this would probably not be the last time a guy would try to touch her inappropriately. As far as ages go. She is 14, just coming out of 8th grade. And he is going into his jr. year of high school. It feels like he needs to focus more on making friends his own age, rather than following around a girl who is just barely out of jr. high. You are so right that this problem is endemic in many churches, you brought up willow creek. We have also had issues in our denomination (not our church, that I know of). But it is not good.

All4peace, Thank you for the reminders for self-care. I have been trying to soothe myself, and calm down. I told my DH that I need to go back to the T again. He just said, okay, and went on about his business. He didn't ask why or talk about anything with me. Maybe he thinks I said it to manipulate him? Or maybe he thinks I am being a drama queen. I am trying not to act weird. I haven't even told him I feel like I am having panic attacks. I try not to talk to him too much about this situation, I didn't even bring it up last night or today, because I dont' want him to get upset with me. When I asked him when the leaders would be at the church tomorrow, he seemed irritated, and said, "I don't know? They don't work tomorrow." Then he told me what service time they attend. I feel so alone in this.

We are supposed to go away this week, for an overnighter, just the two of us. I feel like postponing it. We are not communicating well right now, and I am emotionally drained. I feel no connection to him emotionally, let alone romantically. My goal in my marriage right now, is just to keep the peace, and not stir up trouble. But it is weird right now, it is awkward. I feel like we are just not going the same direction. I can get along with him, but that is just because I don't share with him what is on my heart. But if I was to even mention to him that I am having a hard time, processing this issue. He might get upset at me. And it could turn into a fight. I think we need to postpone our overnighter, until this issue is resolved, and I feel safer and not so weird.

Thank you guys so much. I am going to rest, and then go back over this thread and reread all of your comments. <3 It means so much to me. I literally feel so alone. Not that I am against therapy, and this is probably due to my current state of mind, feeling like I am stuck in an endless panic attack, but I thought to myself cynically, "I am so alone that I have to PAY someone to care about me." LOL It makes me laugh because it sounds so Eeyore. And I am not that kind of a person. I didn't say it out loud, or use it to start a pity party.  But I feel like that right now, and that is sad, and it also makes me laugh because it sounds so lame and pathetic.

But you guys took the time to share your heart and words of encouragement for FREE. And you don't even know me!!!! So thank you sooooooooo much. <3

Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: practical on August 11, 2018, 07:05:16 PM
So sorry for your daughter and you :hug:

Yes, fathers do protect their daughters and sons in real life it doesn't just happen in the movies. It isn't just mothers who turn into mama bears.

What your DH could do was talk to the boy and tell him "I'm telling you this as the father of DD not in my school function, that will be handled separately, your behavior towards my daughter was unacceptable and I expect an apology." and then inform whoever is above him to deal with the official notification of all involved.

I cannot believe that those camp leaders didn't have safety training before camp started. I was a camp counselor 20 years ago and we had training about what we had to report and it has gotten much more stringent since. Any camp that doesn't have safety training, whether it be for dealing with a health emergency, a disaster or what happened to your DD, would not be a camp where I would let my kids go. Camps usually do it for legal reasons and not just the safety of campers, so you may have to inquire what is covered.

What the camp leaders told your DD is brainwashing by abusing the name of God for their purposes. It is totally unacceptable: 1. because she is revictimized, 2. because they use her religion, her faith against her as a weapon.

If you do talk to the leaders, the parents or others and get angry, don't be to upset about it. This is very emotionally upsetting. I don't think Jesus was "chill" when he turned over the tables of the moneychangers in the temple. There are moments when anger is appropriate, for me this is one of them.

You may want to explore the resources offered on this website with your daughter or on your own: https://www.kidpower.org

Like others have said, please let your DD know to be vocal about any inappropriate behavior towards her, to talk to others, to yell, whatever it takes to maintain her safe space back.

And while you might feel overwhelmed, triggered, confused by all of this, I can tell you, you are doing a good job. I wish I had had you as a mother when it happened to me.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: all4peace on August 11, 2018, 08:06:05 PM
Practical, I love everything you said.  :yeahthat:
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Amadahy on August 12, 2018, 12:11:15 AM
Dinah-Sore,

I want to commend you for being an advocate for your daughter, for seeking justice!  I was molested by a circuit preacher at church when I was 12 years old. My en-dad saw and my Nmom didn't care. When I told her and asked to not return to church, she said, "Of course not. What would everyone think?" I carried that shame and confusion for many years and because of it, have sprung into action quickly when my kids were bullied or threatened.

I don't have advice to add, I just want you to be strengthened in your resolve to do the right thing for your daughter and for you ... And even for that boy. Addressing this in the right way now may save him a jail sentence and spare other girls from his abuse.

:hug:
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: LSK1999 on August 12, 2018, 01:16:27 PM
I apologize if I repeat what others have said but I felt so strongly for you I wanted to respond right away. I am not sure what church you go to but if it is one that claims to be Christian....they are not. My advice would be to leave this church immediately and not look back. There is no true Christian church that would say or do anything that would cause harm to your poor daughter or fail to protect her from manipulators and predators. Any church that is concerned with their reputation above the well being of a child is not a church that follows the word of God or the life of Christ. As a Christian and a true follower of Christ nothing disgusts me more than those claiming to follow God that do anything but. My heart aches for you and your poor daughter. This is not what God or Christ wants for you or your daughter, please know these people are SICK and 100% WRONG in their actions. God loves you and will be furious at this treatment of your poor daughter. I too have many issues in dealing with anger and YEP mine triggers me horribly too, but trust me when I say you have EVERY RIGHT to be angry about this, and you are on the side of what is good....not them. It doesn't matter if they have a whole church to back them up.....you have the truth of what is good and pure on your side. I know how scary and horrible this must be, please know that as a Christian I wish I could walk with you into that church holding your hand...I would SCREAM at the injustice of what they are doing. Don't be afraid of your anger, it can serve you well in the fight for what is right and just. I am sending sooooo much love and so many hugs to you right now...please do not doubt Gods love for you...he is on your side..and he is angry!
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: LSK1999 on August 12, 2018, 01:54:39 PM
I just wanted to state that my saying to leave your church and never look back was a bit much...lol...I was angry when I wrote it, but I still think you should deeply question the beliefs and standings that the church you are involved in stand for...my advice would be to go above the youth leaders and to the higher people in the church...if your met with the same reaction, I would be concerned and look for a new church. God Bless you and you can do this  ;)
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Dinah-sore on August 13, 2018, 03:20:58 AM
So sorry for your daughter and you :hug:

Yes, fathers do protect their daughters and sons in real life it doesn't just happen in the movies. It isn't just mothers who turn into mama bears.

What your DH could do was talk to the boy and tell him "I'm telling you this as the father of DD not in my school function, that will be handled separately, your behavior towards my daughter was unacceptable and I expect an apology." and then inform whoever is above him to deal with the official notification of all involved.

I cannot believe that those camp leaders didn't have safety training before camp started. I was a camp counselor 20 years ago and we had training about what we had to report and it has gotten much more stringent since. Any camp that doesn't have safety training, whether it be for dealing with a health emergency, a disaster or what happened to your DD, would not be a camp where I would let my kids go. Camps usually do it for legal reasons and not just the safety of campers, so you may have to inquire what is covered.

What the camp leaders told your DD is brainwashing by abusing the name of God for their purposes. It is totally unacceptable: 1. because she is revictimized, 2. because they use her religion, her faith against her as a weapon.

If you do talk to the leaders, the parents or others and get angry, don't be to upset about it. This is very emotionally upsetting. I don't think Jesus was "chill" when he turned over the tables of the moneychangers in the temple. There are moments when anger is appropriate, for me this is one of them.

You may want to explore the resources offered on this website with your daughter or on your own: https://www.kidpower.org

Like others have said, please let your DD know to be vocal about any inappropriate behavior towards her, to talk to others, to yell, whatever it takes to maintain her safe space back.

And while you might feel overwhelmed, triggered, confused by all of this, I can tell you, you are doing a good job. I wish I had had you as a mother when it happened to me.

Practical, when I read your comment I sat here and cried. The last sentence of yours really hit me deep, and I let it. I sat here and let myself feel the weight of that. Thank you so much for every word you said. <3 It meant so much to me.

I apologize if I repeat what others have said but I felt so strongly for you I wanted to respond right away. I am not sure what church you go to but if it is one that claims to be Christian....they are not. My advice would be to leave this church immediately and not look back. There is no true Christian church that would say or do anything that would cause harm to your poor daughter or fail to protect her from manipulators and predators. Any church that is concerned with their reputation above the well being of a child is not a church that follows the word of God or the life of Christ. As a Christian and a true follower of Christ nothing disgusts me more than those claiming to follow God that do anything but. My heart aches for you and your poor daughter. This is not what God or Christ wants for you or your daughter, please know these people are SICK and 100% WRONG in their actions. God loves you and will be furious at this treatment of your poor daughter. I too have many issues in dealing with anger and YEP mine triggers me horribly too, but trust me when I say you have EVERY RIGHT to be angry about this, and you are on the side of what is good....not them. It doesn't matter if they have a whole church to back them up.....you have the truth of what is good and pure on your side. I know how scary and horrible this must be, please know that as a Christian I wish I could walk with you into that church holding your hand...I would SCREAM at the injustice of what they are doing. Don't be afraid of your anger, it can serve you well in the fight for what is right and just. I am sending sooooo much love and so many hugs to you right now...please do not doubt Gods love for you...he is on your side..and he is angry!
I just wanted to state that my saying to leave your church and never look back was a bit much...lol...I was angry when I wrote it, but I still think you should deeply question the beliefs and standings that the church you are involved in stand for...my advice would be to go above the youth leaders and to the higher people in the church...if your met with the same reaction, I would be concerned and look for a new church. God Bless you and you can do this  ;)

Thank you so much. I felt your support as a righteous indignation. Thank you <3

Dinah-Sore,

I want to commend you for being an advocate for your daughter, for seeking justice!  I was molested by a circuit preacher at church when I was 12 years old. My en-dad saw and my Nmom didn't care. When I told her and asked to not return to church, she said, "Of course not. What would everyone think?" I carried that shame and confusion for many years and because of it, have sprung into action quickly when my kids were bullied or threatened.

I don't have advice to add, I just want you to be strengthened in your resolve to do the right thing for your daughter and for you ... And even for that boy. Addressing this in the right way now may save him a jail sentence and spare other girls from his abuse.

:hug:

When I read your comment my heart tore in half for you. I can't imagine the pain of what happened to you. I am so sorry. So so sorry. Thank you for your comment.

I spoke to those leaders today. It was surprising to find the strength within me to articulate my beliefs. I listened to their side of the story, and they confirmed what my DD had shared, but they admitted that they did not know what to say because they had never had a youth approach them with this kind of problem, and they have never experienced anything like this personally. So I sat down with them and explained what their words sounded like to DD, and I gave them some options for how to talk to kids about this in the future. They were actually sorry and thankful to learn about what to say in these instances. They even asked if I could ask my DH if he would let me speak to all the leaders about how do deal with these situations. So I might have the opportunity in the future to help make sure that this doesn't happen again to youth's in our church/school. I of course will not come up with that information on my own, but even just starting the conversation is a good thing. They are going to apologize to my DD and let her know that they didn't mean to make her feel doubted or discouraged. That they were wrong---that she should be believed, she should be validated, she should listen to her gut, she should not be made to feel guilty if she wants to leave when she feels uncomfortable, she should speak out and defend herself, she should be commended for her bravery in speaking her truth, not told to keep this a secret to protect his reputation, etc.

So that part at least was dealt with. <3 I couldn't have done that without the tremendous support and encouragement I received from you. Thank you for helping me, so I could help my DD (and those kids). <3 <3 <3
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: all4peace on August 13, 2018, 09:01:25 AM
THat is incredible!! Your dd is fortunate to have you advocating for her.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: practical on August 13, 2018, 09:32:00 AM
What an amazing outcome, so relieved the leaders showed openness and were able to admit to their own vulnerability. I'm so happy for you and DD, and proud of you. You showed enormous strength!
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Malini on August 13, 2018, 10:28:47 AM
 :udawoman:

That is amazing Dinah-sore, you're much stronger than you think. So pleased for you and your DD is lucky to have such a brave, loving mom.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Waz on August 13, 2018, 10:50:35 AM
Well done!. Go you 👏
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: LSK1999 on August 13, 2018, 12:37:04 PM
You are AWESOME and brave, and a fantastic mom. Your daughter is so lucky to have you. This is testimony to the fact that we are so much stronger than we believe we are. Thanks so much for sharing the outcome....it's inspirational. Biggest Hugs and love to you!!  :yourock:
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Medowynd on August 13, 2018, 04:11:53 PM
Dinah you are doing a wonderful job of protecting your daughter.

About 20-25 years ago, my younger daughter attended a Christian camp.  There was a boy that was continuously harassing the girls in my daughter’s group.

These girls asked my daughter why this kid was not harassing her.  My daughter had told him to leave her alone and had been pretty forceful about it.

All these girls responded that had been told not to do what my daughter did.  How heartbreaking was that.  My girls were raised from a very young age, that they did not have accept harassment and to speak out about it.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: daughterofbpd on August 13, 2018, 05:08:27 PM
Hi Dinah,

You did so great. You should be proud of yourself.

One of my first thoughts was wondering if it was your anger that was triggering you more or the fact that you've been in this exact situation? It is almost like you are re-living your experience through your DD in a way? For instance, when my DH looses his patience with our DD, I feel triggered and find myself cowering. It is like I am re-experiencing the trauma of being screamed at by my parent and I feel so helpless - only worse because it is happening to my child and I want to protect her. There's lots of reasons why this would be upsetting (your post gave me chills) but I couldn't help but notice the similarities between this and what happened to you with your in-laws.

Another thought I had was: I am not wanting to criticize your church. I do remember reading in another post you writing something along the lines of wives are encouraged to look to their husbands for leadership...something along those lines...? This makes me think that women are not as respected and makes me worry about the way these youth camp leaders reacted to your DD. However, it could just be a case of ignorance and it sounds like that is all that it was and the conversation you had went really well. I find that a lot of men don't understand the seriousness of sexual harassment. They think they would like to receive that kind of attention, they just don't have the experience of knowing how bad it really feels. That's great that they are open to listening and rectifying the situation.

I agree, most men would be livid and wanting to protect their DD's in this situation and it seems weird that your DH isn't like that. I am wondering if he is having a hard time because this is personal and he has trouble standing up to authority when it is for himself? I am just thinking of how it seems he had trouble standing up to his family for himself and for you so maybe this is triggering to him in that way? Again, just an idea, I could be totally off base. I think it is totally normal for you to feel angry with him. I think it is great and maybe even more empowering for you to stand up for yourself BUT it would be nice if you felt like he had your back. I'm sorry you are dealing with that.

Your DD is very lucky to have you as a mom and you really are a great role model to her. You should be proud.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Dinah-sore on August 20, 2018, 10:57:28 PM
Dinah you are doing a wonderful job of protecting your daughter.

About 20-25 years ago, my younger daughter attended a Christian camp.  There was a boy that was continuously harassing the girls in my daughter’s group.

These girls asked my daughter why this kid was not harassing her.  My daughter had told him to leave her alone and had been pretty forceful about it.

All these girls responded that had been told not to do what my daughter did.  How heartbreaking was that.  My girls were raised from a very young age, that they did not have accept harassment and to speak out about it.

Wow, I can totally see that happening. I have seen in the church culture that there is this obligation to be "nice" all the time. I remember listening to a youtube called the gift of fear about a woman who was about to be attacked by a guy hiding in her stairwell outside her appt.  that her gut told her that he was dangerous, but she was afraid to not be nice. And he broke into her house and raped her. He almost killed her, but she then trusted her instincts and got away.

I have felt that same thing. Wanting to be nice to the person who is putting me in danger. It makes me so angry now. I am so blessed to hear that your DD is strong and not afraid to speak up for herself. Hopefully the other girls see that as an example to follow.

Hi Dinah,

You did so great. You should be proud of yourself.

One of my first thoughts was wondering if it was your anger that was triggering you more or the fact that you've been in this exact situation? It is almost like you are re-living your experience through your DD in a way? For instance, when my DH looses his patience with our DD, I feel triggered and find myself cowering. It is like I am re-experiencing the trauma of being screamed at by my parent and I feel so helpless - only worse because it is happening to my child and I want to protect her. There's lots of reasons why this would be upsetting (your post gave me chills) but I couldn't help but notice the similarities between this and what happened to you with your in-laws.

Another thought I had was: I am not wanting to criticize your church. I do remember reading in another post you writing something along the lines of wives are encouraged to look to their husbands for leadership...something along those lines...? This makes me think that women are not as respected and makes me worry about the way these youth camp leaders reacted to your DD. However, it could just be a case of ignorance and it sounds like that is all that it was and the conversation you had went really well. I find that a lot of men don't understand the seriousness of sexual harassment. They think they would like to receive that kind of attention, they just don't have the experience of knowing how bad it really feels. That's great that they are open to listening and rectifying the situation.

I agree, most men would be livid and wanting to protect their DD's in this situation and it seems weird that your DH isn't like that. I am wondering if he is having a hard time because this is personal and he has trouble standing up to authority when it is for himself? I am just thinking of how it seems he had trouble standing up to his family for himself and for you so maybe this is triggering to him in that way? Again, just an idea, I could be totally off base. I think it is totally normal for you to feel angry with him. I think it is great and maybe even more empowering for you to stand up for yourself BUT it would be nice if you felt like he had your back. I'm sorry you are dealing with that.

Your DD is very lucky to have you as a mom and you really are a great role model to her. You should be proud.


Thank you so much for your insight. You brought up a lot of things that I didn't see. You are right. You hit the nail on the head. I don't think it was my anger that triggered me, but my past. Absolutely. I think that triggered an emotional flashback and I felt helpless and powerless all over again. like a child. I was afraid of these young girls as if they were in authority over me, and were going to let me down. It sounds so weird. But I know you guys here can understand. Thank you for pointing that out.

There has been another incident at our church. One adult male had touched the back of a teenage girl as she was on the swings on the playground. The way he had touched her back and waist, his hands lingered on her and she was terrified of him. When his overseer was notified, the overseer just swept it under the rug and said, basically, that she misunderstood. That always sat with me wrong. The same overseer told me once, explaining the situation, when I asked him about it, he said, "My dd got pregnant at a young age. She tried to play it off as if it was rape. But she lied. It was her boyfriend. Sometimes young girls lie." I remember feeling severe anger at all the complexities of what he just revealed in that conversation. But overall, I was thinking that he should not be an overseer of men who work with youth. He doesn't believe the youth, especially girls. And I have been struggling with the view of women in our church. There is probably more of a misogyny in our church than in others. Our preacher teaches about how his wife is the model wife, giving examples of how she serves him food and cleans up after him, and she is not allowed to be on the phone when he gets home from work. How at dinner time she does not sit at the table with the family, but eats standing, so she can refill his plate as he eats. That is not how it works in our home, but that is what is glorified in the pulpit. And it makes it hard because I am trying to heal from abuse that made me a people pleaser, and I never know what is just normal behavior, or where to draw the line. Like with that post about do I need to ask my husband permission to drink a glass of wine. etc.

Thank you also for addressing my husband not stepping up, of his own desire, to step in and protect our DD. I don't know what is normal or not. I think to, this might trigger me, because my own dad whom I love dearly, did not protect me from BPDm growing up. Men in my life have been passive and apathetic when it comes to my stuff. My dad supports me now, but he will not stand up for me to this day when BPDm comes against me. He will only take my side privately afterwards. I kind of understood his problem standing up to his family, because that is his family, he was programmed by them, just like me and BPDm. But I don't know why he won't stand up for his DD in another context. This is his job, not his family. Even if he got reprimanded, which he wouldn't, he has not attachment trauma with this place? it would only make things difficult for him socially. But as a parent, isn't your kid worth that? I don't know. I don't want to be angry with him, and I am not at the moment. I am still a bit confused and all, but I guess I need to not expect him to be a certain way that he isn't going to be. And just do what I think I need to do to be a good parent.

And thank you ALL for your encouraging and cheerful comments. You have no idea how surprised I was by them. It warmed my heart and made me cry. I am speechless and forever grateful for this forum. I cannot tell you how much this meant to me. <3
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Cuthberta on August 21, 2018, 08:11:51 AM
 
Quote
Our preacher teaches about how his wife is the model wife, giving examples of how she serves him food and cleans up after him, and she is not allowed to be on the phone when he gets home from work. How at dinner time she does not sit at the table with the family, but eats standing, so she can refill his plate as he eats.

I would not personally stay at a church where this teaching comes from the pulpit. This is not mainstream Christian teaching, but something very different indeed.

I am glad the situation with your d was resolved, but the whole incident struck me as early stage grooming by the young man concerned. I would not stay around to find out what he does next; I would find a church where the minister does not expect their spouse to eat standing up.
Title: Re: I need help bad, please walk me through my triggers
Post by: Dinah-sore on August 22, 2018, 06:18:04 PM
Cuthbertha, my DH is employed by the church/school organization. So I am tied to the church by marriage. All of my children's friends are in the youth groups there. Some of the kids there are very sheltered and legalistic. My kids don't really click with those kids, and have deep friendships with the kids they have more in common with.

I used to want to leave the church badly, then when I started to heal, I dealt with a lot of forgiveness of the people there. And yet, at the same time I am coming to see that many of those people are not healthy for me. So I am looking to cultivate friendships with people who are spiritually/emotionally healthy outside of church or maybe from the church/but not like the church.

But as far as changing churches. I can't.

My DH isn't open to that.