...and his L just sent 2000+ pages of emails and photos for additional discovery. It's looking more and more like this deposition will be nothing but one giant fishing expedition. Fishing for any scrap of anything to use against me somehow. I'm trying to sort though this literal pile of crap and it looks like every single email exchange between the two of us for the duration of our 20 yr marriage was downloaded and sent in.
Throughout our marriage he used to keep me occupied with manufactured problems that I'd need to spend my time solving...so that I wasn't paying attention to what he was up to. This feels the same way - now I need to go through all of these pages (a lot are duplicate/triplicate, but still!). This is a colossal waste of my time.
This is supposed to be stuff he can use 'against' me to prove his case...not grocery lists and hey, run out to the hardware store and pick up xyz. I mean, who cares? It proves nothing. What is his angle?
I mean, there are photos I took of the kids included in this pile. Photos of other couples and their kids. Photos of his parents with the kids. Photos of all of us as a family. Doing family things (what no one sees is what happened before/after the photos were taken...). Wtf? How is any of this relevant? (aside from the fact that I need to find out how he got his hands on some of my photos...).
I know part of this is his black and white thinking - he has smiling photos of himself and the kids (most of which I took). Smiling photos means good times. This proves there was no abuse in the marriage because there were some good times, therefore there were no bad times. Therefore there was no abuse. Therefore I'm wrong. Therefore I need help because I'm lying about him. Therefore I'm the bad one. Because he has photos of the kids having a good time with him. And around and around we go.
Has anyone dealt with anything similar before? What did you do? How did it turn out?
Thanks in advance!
Whiteheron, I'm so sorry you're going through this. Unfortunately I don't have any relevant experience from which to offer advice, but I did want to offer some moral support.
:bighug:
First - as someone dealing with court with some sort of PD... don't try to figure out the logic behind it, there likely isn't any! I mean, easier said than done...
So it may be a ploy to cost you more money (attorney has to go through all of those pages) or trying to intimidate you with all this "evidence"... but as far as going to court in front of a judge-no judge wants to sift through that. No judge has the time or patience for that. 99% of that won't see the light of day in court. It just a waste of time and energy.
Best of luck though, court cases with a PD are not for the faint of heart (4 years on, still going through court stuff for me... ugh!)
Thanks for your support blunk!
findjoy-My L won't be going through this pile. I will go through it and flag anything I think she needs to look at. She's actually very good about things like that - if there's something I can do that will save her time and me $$, she offers it up. stbx's L on the other hand...
My L did get back to me and said either stbx is trying to paper us to death, his L is trying to generate more fees, or stbx actually thinks this nonsense will help his case somehow.
The latter is why I'm trudging through all of this and trying to make some kind of sense of it all. If he believes he's got an angle and it's buried in all these pages, I want to try to find it just in case...so I can be prepared. I don't want to be blindsided under oath. I'm not good at thinking on my feet. If that means I have to read through 1000s of pages to prove to myself there's nothing there that I've forgotten about, then I'll do it.
The thing that gets me is, even if I've forgotten about something, it's still nothing. I'm a good person who's been doing her best to raise the kids and keep her H (now stbx) as level as possible (an impossible task, I might add). I was telling a friend, the most crazy/daring thing I do is go to the gym and take the tough classes. I'm boring. I'm plain. And I'm ok with that. He can search all he wants and dredge up old emails and texts. There's nothing there. Yet still I will search through it all...
Dear Whiteheron,
Am sorry to hear about your situation and that definitely sounds like another game to me. If you have strong evidence to support your claims/case, recommend having a close friend or trusted person to fly through that stuff looking only for some sort of smoking gun against you. Otherwise, it seems like just another tactic to get you to remember the good times in order to soften your heart and your stance against your partner or to simply play more games.
What, if anything, do you have to be concerned about with respect to being blindsided under oath?
Best of luck and wishes to you and your children.
Can you turn the tables and have him deposed?
Hi White Heron!
It's been a long time.
I'm so sorry to hear you're still in the thick of it.
My thoughts:
The judge is not going to be amused by this. It's pathetic. Meant to intimidate you and confuse/distract the Court. "Don't look at the court-ordered psych eval recommendations, but look at all this other evidence". If there is anything in there to 'use against you'' you are an honest person of integrity, a good mom, whatever slight your ex has hidden will surely not rise to any catastrophic result. Also, you have the psych evals on your side and this ridiculous ploy will be seen in conjunction with that. It just makes your ex look desperate, rather than stable and rational.
I know this doesn't make it easier. I'm so sorry you are still dealing with it at this level. Your kids must be exhausted of it as well. You're in my thoughts 💪🏻
White Heron:
Remember to keep your eye on the ball. The PDs always engage in chaos manufacture to create confusion...standard PD tactics. Don't panic or react.
Your job is to have your true evidence ready, and presented as required. IME this means you're mostly engaged in disproving negatives, while informing the court with your evidence
When the PD presents his case, be ready to calmly and succinctly respond. Don't let his crazy affect your calm, consistently reasonable child focused presentation. The PD is trying to get a reaction out of you. He wants you to panic. He's looking for a hysterical response he can point to....or fir you to babble about his PD actions you can't prove. And doing so would make you appear unhinged ime.
The good news is....she/he with the best records often prevails. Center your case around your evidence. Bring all your documents to court....leave the ones you feel you won't need in your attorney's trunk, just in case.
Bat every ball back with economy of response. Give very short, helpful in demeanor answers....give only the burger...no condiments or bun.
The harsh light of the courtroom can be a terrible place for a PD lacking good arguments real evidence, IME.
Thanks everyone!
Yes, I can have him deposed if I choose - my L made sure that the option existed - that if I were deposed, then we could depose him and the psych evaluator. That's the big one. My L tells me that when the psych evaluator is on the stand, she blows her evals out of the water. She writes them very softly, but when probed and questioned, she holds nothing back and shines a very harsh light on her findings. I'm assuming stbx's L knows this, if he's passed it on to stbx - who knows? They do spend a lot of their time trying to discredit her.
It's so funny. My documents total less than 30 pages. He's got a huge stack - it's got to be over a foot tall! Sheer insanity. I was looking through the photos more closely - there are photos of expired condiments. A cluttered countertop. Proof that, what? Neither of us cleaned out the old salsa (that was his and I refused to touch) from the back of the fridge? Proof that by the end of the week, papers cluttered the countertop? Proof that I was a lousy housewife? Does he think the judge will admonish me for leaving an old jar of pickles in the back of the fridge?
Is this a game, or is he really that far gone? I honestly think he believes this matters. I failed to be a good little housewife because there was clutter on the countertop (some was clearly from me being in the middle of cooking), because there were old pickles in the fridge? So since I wasn't performing my "job" then it was ok for him to look elsewhere? :Idunno:
One thing I do need to work on is not giving too many details. I've been conditioned to spill all (or else). It's a tough habit to break. As hhaw says, just the burger. No bun and no (expired) condiments. ;)
He has no evidence, because I haven't done anything. The worst thing I did was search for a T for DS without telling him beforehand. Because it was in DS's best interest that his dad not know. And stbx proved that by trying to compel DS's T to release her session notes.
LOL those pictures from the fridge - yes, the judge will never see those, and if by chance he does - I believe the judge will be more annoyed than anything else.
My exhusband did this during discovery. He copied over a thousand pages of records — some of it junk mail — and called it asset records. It's just a stalling tactic, and I'd recommend not paying much attention to it.
We deposed my ex, which was very interesting and educational. He absolutely seethed through the nearly 3 hour deposition. My lawyer was the target of his rage. We didn't get much in the way of asset information, but my lawyer finally understood the abuse I'd lived with for years.
I think my stbx took pics like that.... but we didn't get to the point where we presented our cases, so I don't really know. I DO know that some people DO care about these things..... and that we have to accept that. We also need to remember that one or two people can be manipulated by the PD in court, but they can't fool everyone all the time. They just haven't, IME. There's always people who recognize what they're doing, and counter the manipulated ignorant people, IME.
All that pointing to papers, and condiments is designed to make you feel fearful, and react without thinking, IME. I'm glad you know there's nothing REAL for him to point it, bc I think that's true, so don't let him worry you.
About the depositions..... my attorney said I was terrible in my deposition, but my stbx was suicidal with his answers. Just very N, and taking the 5th, and all over the place avoiding answering, etc.
If I had to do it over again, I'd take stock of my evidence, build the theory of my case AROUND that evidence, and not talk about any of the PD stuff I couldn't prove. Honestly, it made me sound unhinged, and people were asking WHY stbx DID those things TO ME, bc of course anyone who'd do crazy stuff like that would have to be compelled to DO them, right?
Not many people have the experience to understand a PD's scorched earth policy, particularly when they're willing to dismantle their own lives, and eat their kids, IME.
So..... just the burger. Talk about only what you can prove, bc people want facts to "square up". Your case must make sense to everyone. People understand cheating, or being vindictive or being abusive, but they don't get PD behavior, IME. Find a way to explain what is happening, and make it as normal as you can by presenting facts, and viewing them with the same puzzlement as Judge and Jury will view them.
You can't tell anyone what they MUST think, feel or do. That's the kiss of death, IME. You simply lay out the facts, and evidence, WITHOUT EXPECTATION, and allow the listener to come to their own conclusions.
If you're calm, speak about your stbx with compassion, and remain child focused you're more likely to be heard, and believed, IME.
Remember, this IS a mentally unbalanced person, and he's the father of your son. Compassion is rewarded, and anger is punished, IME.
You'll likely do 100X better at depostion than your stbx.
IF you must schedule depositions, think about how your stbx might handle that. It's about 5K per deposition, IME, and more if you have it videotaped. IF I COULD TURN BACK TIME I'd have video taped at least one deposition.... I really regret not doing so for many reasons.
Since you have time, and if you believe stbx would come unhinged, check out the difference in cost, and consider whether it would be worth it to you. Honestly, there are moments that appear, sometimes when we least expect them, that would be GOLDEN if only we had the ability to capture it on tape or video.
hhaw, it's funny how they have these patterns... DH's exW also plead the fifth in a deposition (not even over stuff that was illegal). She lied all over the place, even when it was clear that DH had documentation that contradicted her. (Things like, he never informed me of X when he actually did several times over email ... stupid lies that made me actually wonder if she's delusional). I think her deposition really helped him, too.
This!
Quote from: hhaw on February 21, 2019, 11:38:33 AM
If I had to do it over again, I'd take stock of my evidence, build the theory of my case AROUND that evidence, and not talk about any of the PD stuff I couldn't prove. Honestly, it made me sound unhinged, and people were asking WHY stbx DID those things TO ME, bc of course anyone who'd do crazy stuff like that would have to be compelled to DO them, right?
It's so frustrating that the worst of what she does will never get her in trouble with any judge, because DH doesn't have proof. But ultimately she does do enough stuff that is in writing or otherwise proved, that he has a good case anyway. And adding the other stuff just muddies the waters and lets it become more of a he said she said.
WhiteHeron, before DH got deposed we brainstormed questions he might get asked and then one-sentence answers that best explained his position and if possible brought it around to what's best for the kids. Depending on how much his lawyer reins him in, you might have some insight over what he'll ask because he can't help himself. If you're really lucky he'll focus on stuff that's not relevant to the case and your lawyer can object to a lot of it. If the lawyer is better than that, think about the issues at hand and what they would need from you to prove their case. And imagine questions about that.
One good piece of advice that he got is to really listen to the question. If it's a yes or no question, just say yes or no. If it's a statement without a question, don't say anything, make them come up with a question.
For example: "Don't you think you should be doing what's in the kids best interests?" (Implying that you're not). "Yes." Don't go on to explain why you are, unless they follow up. That sort of thing. Grandstanding about why you should do what's in the kids' best interests, that doesn't get an answer at all.
PennyLane, that's such good advice..... to wait for a question, and not respond to inflammatory statements like...
"Don't you think you should do what;s in the best interest of the children?"
It's perfectly acceptable to remain silent, then respond to prompting with....."You haven't asked a question. You made a statement." Appear eager helpful, calm, and always child centered. That cuts down on trouble, IME.
ALSO..... the questions and statements by opposing counsel, and maybe others, that might bring up anger.....
the best advice I ever received was to treat these moments as opportunities to educate your audience, and speak as though you're addressing young children, bc it helps you stay level, and calm, IME.
Short, and sweet.
Stick to the mission.
It's OK to ask for breaks. Wear a symbol, bracelet, something to remind you to stick to the mission, and not get angry, sidetracked, or mislead.
Touch it often.
hhaw- great advice. That's the same type of approach I took to the psych evaluator (based on advice from here). I spoke in examples, gave situations, no labels. I did not call him anything, I let her draw her own conclusions. Based on my responses, she described him as a narcissist. So I guess it's pretty apparent. In his psych eval, he kept trying to control the interview, which she noted several times in her report. So my L is going heavy with labeling him as controlling, but nothing more. Every time she's in front of the judge she points out that he keeps trying to control me. We also have proof that he is extremely controlling - all of his text messages, his affidavits, letters from his L to my L demanding I do this or that. So we can back up this aspect of his personality with evidence.
I can prove his cheating. I can prove he's lied in his affidavits to the court. I was also diagnosed with PTSD caused by his treatment of me. It's in my T's notes that stbx demanded she turn over. So that's part of the record as well.
penny- His L lets him get away with just about anything. My L says she's never seen his L act so unprofessional before - so her thinking is that his L knows it's a lost cause and is just soaking stbx for all the $$$ he can. My L friend suggested that stbx's L is pushing for trial, not only for the $$, but because his client (stbx) is out of control and the L doens't want to be sued by stbx if things go south. If we go to trial, then the L isn't at fault, stbx's rage will be directed at the judge (shows how little his L understands his personality - he will blame everyone involved). My friend has told me on a few occasions that it sounds like stbx's L has done me a favor, when I describe certain situations/instances. I don't see it that way, because his L is still allowing stbx to abuse me through him and the courts. I just want to be left alone.
I have no idea what I'll be asked. I mean, aside from getting T for DS, there isn't anything I can think of that I did "wrong." stbx used to complain about all of the kids' activities, that I was pushing/forcing them. I think he may have even said something about that in his psych eval. I just don't know. I'm a straight arrow. So I overlooked two expired condiment jars in the fridge. So I was exhausted and hadn't yet decluttered the countertops. How does this amount to "evidence" to support his "case"?
I don't even know what their case is! I think that's a huge part of the problem for me. What is he trying to claim? Aside from demanding 50% custody and pretending to be super dad, I just don't know!
Quote from: Penny Lane on February 21, 2019, 01:36:38 PM
One good piece of advice that he got is to really listen to the question. If it's a yes or no question, just say yes or no. If it's a statement without a question, don't say anything, make them come up with a question.
I need to work on this. I will remember it. It will be nothing but a fishing expedition. I don't want to give them any scraps they can use against me.
opensky - I am really curious to know how stbx would react on the stand. Esp if his lies are exposed.
I think the advice of "stick to the mission" is a good one. As cold as this sounds, the courts don't care much about who cheated or lied. Rather, they concentrate on two things -- the money division and child custody. Insomuch as how your stbx's behavior impacts those two big areas is probably the best place to focus. Similarly, it's good to get clear before you are in the question box as to what is important to you. From your other posts, it seems that the custody issue is number one with money right behind. It really doesn't matter what he lies about, how dramatic he gets, etc.
As others mentioned, the shorter your answers the better. Other tips are:
-- If you can answer "yes" or "no" to a question, do so.
-- Only answer questions -- never answer probing statements that sound like questions, but aren't (ie. You were backing your car out of the drive when you hit your ex. This is not a question and is leading.)
-- Lawyers like to fluster you by asking multi-part questions. If presented with one, ask the lawyer to break it down into separate questions and answer those.
-- It's okay to say "I don't know" if you don't know.
--Most important: Never provide additional information or go off on a long explanation. It will always get you into trouble. You only want to give the opposing counsel the information they ask for. Discovery is for them to know what to ask you at trial. The less of that you provide, the better.
Good luck! I've been questioned in a divorce deposition and in a criminal trial (not mine!). It's harrowing. Take as many breaks as you need.
Quote from: Whiteheron on February 21, 2019, 03:23:28 PM
I don't even know what their case is! I think that's a huge part of the problem for me. What is he trying to claim? Aside from demanding 50% custody and pretending to be super dad, I just don't know!
Oh man that is so frustrating! It seems like you're in a really uncertain position here.
I think openskyblue is right, the two issues will be parenting time and money. Even if you don't know specifics about what they'll ask, can you come up with talking points for each thing? Like, with parenting issues "I think my proposal is in the best interest of the kids" and with money "I think my proposal is the fairest way to split things up."
So like "why did you leave expired condiments in the fridge?" maybe the answer is "I was focused on other things that were more critical for the kids during the separation" = bring it back to the kids. Then if they go on (which would truly be ridiculous) "do you make a habit of leaving expired condiments in the fridge?" "No." "Are there any expired condiments in your fridge right now?" "I can't say for certain." "You don't know if something in your fridge is expired?" "No." I mean, they can try to have that exchange (if your lawyer doesn't object) but I can't imagine that ever makes it in front of a judge. And that's your goal - don't give them anything that they can take to the judge.
Maybe think through polite ways to explain your concerns with him having 50/50? Like, "I think the current arrangement gives him the best chance to be a good parent without getting overwhelmed."
Even if you can't predict every off the wall thing he might ask about, I think you'll feel more confident going into it if you have some simple phrases and thoughts to fall back on.
And remember! In the deposition you don't have to say what you CAN prove. And you don't have to prove it. In fact strategically you don't want to give away all the things you're able to prove that the opposing counsel doesn't know about. It's better to surprise them later if you're pretty certain this isn't going to be settled.
If his lawyer is just doing whatever your ex wants, I bet a lot of the questions will be irrelevant. (BM tried to use DH's deposition to try to ask personal questions about me, the cleanliness of our house, all kinds of things that BM wanted to know that had nothing to do with the trial. All of them were objected to and he didn't have to answer any of them.)
Good luck, we'll all be rooting for you, I hope it goes as well as possible.
About what the PD's case IS......
he seems to be making it about your denying him access to his child, and he's pushing for more time than he normally asks for.
Be very cognizant of appearing like you're withholding time with son, being petty, or in any way acting NOT in the best interest of your son.
IF you stay child centered, calm, and focused on your points it's difficult for the PD and opposing counsel to get purchase in a courtroom, IME.
And.... sometimes things FEEL like they're going wonky. Sometimes it seems like they scored a point, or two, and that can be very upsetting. Don't let it shake you. Know this is normal, and there will be good and bad moments. Like someone said... it's good to tip as little of your hand as possible in deposition. What the PD doesn't know about usually works against them.
At trial, opposing counsel will ask questions that force you to say YES or NO, and it will feel bad, or look bad TILL your attorney has a chance to get in there, and "rehabilitate" you as a witness. In other words, ask questions that get to the truth, and make clear what you really need the Judge to know. When you answer a question, you get a chance to explain it, so get used to being patient about that sort of thing.
Just stay calm, appear helpful.... you want opposing counsel to understand. You're there to educate him, the judge, and everyone else in the courtroom. You're consistent, calm, child centered mom working multiple jobs, while raising your son on your own, and working with a mentally unstable father of your child to keep that relationship in tact, with focus being on your son's safety as priority.
This isn't a simple story. This is complicated, and the Judge won't know what to think UNTIL YOU PROVIDE EVIDENCE, and lay it out in a way that makes sense.
Remember to keep visitation as normal as possible..... what it was before PD asked for shared custody. Remember not to let him bait you. Remember to never get snarky, to always be professional, and compassionate toward this disordered person. If you're asking PD to give you some heads up about visitation, and you never asked for that before.....explain that. You're striving to keep visitation in place, and as consistent as it's ever been because your son does better with consistency. Kids also like to know what's happening ahead of time, and it's good to include that, along with your request for a heads up for planning planning purposes. Everyone plans, to some extent, even moms striving to keep unsteady dads involved in their child's life to the best of her ability.
You're walking a tight rope. You're doing your best. You're the consistent parent on top of her son's life, and the PD is going to have a hell of a time PROVING that situation needs to be changed.... esp with his mental health history. Lord, what Judge is going to hand shared custody of a child to THIS man?
Even if you get an old fashioned he man Judge, who wants to give an unfit father equal access, you should always ask for safety measure, and graduated changes based on the PD doing well for extended periods of time before considering another change. PDs are shot at agreeing to anything, and it just spins their heads to have authority exerted over them, IME. They don't do well, and opposing counsel being combative is a plus, bc your worst nightmare is an opposing counsel who can calm down the PD and get him to agree to a deal with ANY gains. You want him to want what he wants, and what he wants IS EVERYTHING he's asking for.
Explain to this Judge why it's in the child's best interest to keep the current plan in place. Don't TELL HIM WHAT HE MUST DO, but lay out your information, sans expectation, and allow him to come to his own conclusion.
I know I repeat things, but it's difficult to keep them in sight when you're under the gun, IME.
Reading through these threads, I think it's worth refocusing -- you are going to a deposition, not a trial. It probably does not serve you well to have your head in both places.
The deposition is an information search of you by the opposing counsel. It's sole legal purpose is to get information out of you that the opposing counsel can use at trial to win. For that reason, as the person being questioned, you should answer questions as succinctly and dispassionately as possible. No one is going to be found guilty nor is anything going to be proven in a deposition.
It sounds like your stbx's lawyer is not particularly good or professional. It also sounds like his mode of operation is to confuse and try to knock the other side (you) off their center. Insomuch as you can stay centered and calm, you can overcome this strategy easily. By throwing all this paper at you pre-deposition they have shown that they probably don't have much to bring to the case. And if they get nothing from you, they may not even decide to go to trial.
Opensky - my head is all over the place. I know that's part of the problem. The deposition will happen after our March court date. His L has already confirmed this with my L - so he has zero intention of working with me or trying to settle. From what it sounds like, at the court date, a trial date will be set, most likely for sometime in April. This is all making me crazy. He has zero intention of trying to work anything out with me despite what he claims. I will follow the advice for both the deposition and trial. Kid focused, short answers, answer only what is asked, etc.
hhaw- I have two kids, DS15 and DD12 (I think I only mention DS in this thread). We have a temporary custody agreement based on the psych evaluator's recommendation. stbx actually has a little more time than she recommended, ~40%. I am accommodating on special days and I work with him as best as I can so that the kids' schedule runs smoothly. stbx is not happy with having less than 50%, so he is demanding more. On what grounds? I don't know. Kids are doing ok - showing signs that the time with stbx is too much, but neither will say anything to the GAL or their T's - they don't want to hurt stbx's feelings or make him mad. The most that was said was by DS, when he told the GAL that the extra wednesdays were too much, but when the GAL asked if he wanted less time with his dad, he refused to give a straight answer.
The judge was described to me as a very involved dad himself, so I worry he will think stbx is also very involved and a loving father. So far, for the most part, he is following the psych evaluator's recommendations.
I don't mind if you repeat anything. I need to hear it. Usually it takes several times before it sinks in.
Penny - you are right, parenting time and $$ are the issues. Money wasn't an issue until lately. He was agreeing to give me 50%, now he's changed that to 20%. Why? Who knows. I privately told my L that I would take 20% if he left custody alone. But he won't.
I do like your line about stbx being possibly overwhelmed with 50% custody. That would get under his skin - I am beneath him, yet I would be telling the court he wouldn't be able to handle 50%. ;) More lines like this would potentially cause his true self to come out.
I've already had to submit everything for discovery. So they know all I have to use against him (less than 30 pages). I think this is why he's submitted mountains of paperwork - so every aspect of my life is fair game.
I firmly believe stbx will force his L to ask me personal questions - about the cleanliness of my house, if I'm dating/seeing anyone, my routine, my job, etc.
Quote from: Whiteheron on February 22, 2019, 02:21:20 PM
I've already had to submit everything for discovery. So they know all I have to use against him (less than 30 pages). I think this is why he's submitted mountains of paperwork - so every aspect of my life is fair game.
It's the volume of information -- it's the quality and content of it. Frankly, from what you have described about your stbx -- bipolar diagnosis (?), keeps unlocked guns in the house, history of instability -- I think you would have to be caught stealing a car before you'd look "worse" than he does to a judge.
The lawyer will very likely ask you personal information, so you should be ready for that. I'd recommend that you practice with someone answering personal questions that you think may hang you up. Ideally, your lawyer should be practicing with you.
My heart goes out to you. I was married to my exhusband (NPD, bipoloar, sociopath) for 20 years, and i know how "they" can get in your head and make you feel afraid, well, just all the time. You can do this! It just takes growing a thick shell. The litmus test will be this: The more your ex's lawyer gets angry, frustrated, and flustered with your short answers, the more you will know you are winning.
Hi, WH
I second the comment that a deposition is not a trial. Focus on answering the questions that are asked in a truthful manner, and try not to tie yourself in knots about how your answers will play into your ex's grand legal strategy. (Hint: if he's producing photos of what's in the refrigerator, his strategy isn't all that.)
Let me offer some practical (not legal!) advice:
I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't remember. Maybe. Perhaps.
These are all acceptable responses to questions at a deposition. Witnesses are often all too eager to be agreeable, or worried that they will come across as stupid or incompetent, but the answers above (if truthful) are the among the best and safest answers to give.
Quick example:
Q. Are any condiments in your refrigerator expired?
WH #1: Yes. (But this question is in the present tense. Do you know this for a fact? Did you recently review the contents of your frig and deliberately leave expired products? Probably not.)
WH #2: No. (The question broadly asked about "any" condiments, though. Are you 100% certain? Why are you so certain? Those follow-up questions will be asked, so unless you cleaned out the frig the weekend before, no need to lock yourself in with a definite answer.)
WH #3: I'm not sure. (If truthful, this is a great answer and very plausible. Because really, how many people know what's lurking in their refrigerator?)
A few practice strategies:
Ask your lawyer if she has a transcript of a previous deposition taken by your ex's lawyer, and if her assistant can copy and paste the questions asked for you to review.
Write down the questions you are really worried about being asked. Write your responses to each and then run them by your lawyer.
Sit down with your lawyer, a friend who is a lawyer, or (in a pinch) your most obnoxious friend and request that she spend and hour asking you questions.
At the deposition:
1) Take breaks every hour to refocus. Take at least an hour for lunch. Bring a protein bar or other nutritious snack to eat late afternoon if it goes that long.
2) Always wait a second or two before answering, to make sure the question is finished and your lawyer isn't going to object.
3) Listen to your lawyer's objections, because she is telling you there is a problem with the question. Sit down with her beforehand to understand what her objections mean.
4) If you don't understand a question, or didn't quite catch it, ask the court reporter to read it back.
5) If you don't like a question, or the other lawyer's tone is getting you upset, ask the court reporter to read it back. That buys you time, takes the emotion out of the equation, and throws off opposing counsel's rhythm.
You are going to be fine. Understandably, you are stressed. But if you are an honest person acting in good faith (which is how you come across in your posts), you will do just fine in a deposition.
Good luck! We're all here for you if you need a little more encouragement as you get ready.
IME psych evaluations, and welfare checks in the home aren't concerned with expired condiments in the fridge.
All they're looking for is...
FOOD IN THE FRIDGE....
NO FECES ON THE FLOOR, home is safe for children, etc.
If you want to go above and beyond, take pictures of fire extinguishers in your home, that the kids can operate too, and include them in your evidence. There are some that are like spray cans, and they're not that expensive. At deposition, ask if the father has fire extinguishers in place, has he stopped keeping loaded weapons out in the open at his residence, etc.... is he still on his medications for whatever it is he's suffering with..... just touch base on everything he's struggled with, and is likely still struggling with.
No one is going to come down on your fore expired condiments, for heaven's sake. This isn't about that. This is about the PD driving you over the edge, and robbing you of your ability to think straight.
HE's way behind the 8 ball in this. No Judge, in their right mind, will look at the evidence, and give this guy shared custody, IME. Judges like to keep the status quo in place. They like the parent with control to support the child having relationships with all family members, and you seem to be doing a great job of that.
Quote from: openskyblue on February 22, 2019, 03:06:03 PM
It's the volume of information -- it's the quality and content of it. Frankly, from what you have described about your stbx -- bipolar diagnosis (?), keeps unlocked guns in the house, history of instability -- I think you would have to be caught stealing a car before you'd look "worse" than he does to a judge.
Sheesh! I meant to write "It's NOT the volume of information, it's the quality and content of it." If my head weren't attached...
I thoroughly got under opposing councils skin a few times in my deposition. He asked me why I "abandoned my wife and child to go to work and work late some nights" (mind you I worked from home) I turned it right back on him and said well I suppose since you are an attorney and have to work long hours, you "abandoned your wife many times."
Remember your audience in a deposition is the court/judge, not opposing counsel. I chose not to look at the OC and focused on directing my voice to the reporter. That also is a play there.
Be brutally honest, don't sugar coat things. For instance, opposing counsel asked about a small hole in the wall. I turned it around and started to talk about all the physical abuse that was perpetrated on me in front of my child, including unlawful detainment to the extent I could not walk or call the police. (OC decided to move on...)
OC will try to intimidate you over some cherry-picked small items, I forgot to claim a small "bonus" that was listed on one of my paystubs (it was under $10)... OC spent 30 minutes talking about it.
They will also try to fluster you, like cherry-picking some number on a tax form. Again, spent 30 minutes on this.... I'm not a tax professional so I said so. I was able to find how the number was calculated and it was done properly.
So, does the judge look over the deposition transcript, or is the outcome of the deposition (assuming they "find" something juicy :roll:) used at trial by opposing counsel? So in a way, is the deposition a way for opposing counsel to grill me about every microspeck of my life without the judge present so as not to waste the judge's/court's time?
Quote from: Whiteheron on February 25, 2019, 04:56:09 PM
So, does the judge look over the deposition transcript, or is the outcome of the deposition (assuming they "find" something juicy :roll:) used at trial by opposing counsel? So in a way, is the deposition a way for opposing counsel to grill me about every microspeck of my life without the judge present so as not to waste the judge's/court's time?
In my particular case, the judge did read the transcripts. What tends to happen is OC will take snippets of your testimony and use it in various ways at hearings either to question your credibility or to impeach you (catch you in a lie). I would highly advise you go into a deposition with your own attorney, s/he can object to questions, keep in mind there is no one there to rule on the objection, it's there so if that part is used later the judge can hear the objection and rule on it.
It's also used as another component of discovery, depending on where you live, rules of discovery may vary substantially. Where I am from, the rules are pretty open, meaning they can ask about pretty much anything and request pretty much anything.
Your attorney does have the opportunity to cross-examine you. Some attorneys choose not to do a cross of their own as it can open Pandora's box. The less you talk the better, keep it short, and truthful.
Hi, WH
To answer your question, the judge almost certainly will not read the entire deposition transcript. A good judge will read the pretrial briefs (which are about 10-20 pages), but a depositition transcript will run 100+ pages. There simply is not time for a judge or his or her staff to read it, plus a lot of it will be irrelevant and a waste of time.
Check with your lawyer, but in most places deposition transcripts will not be exhibits at trial and can't be used at trial for any purpose other than impeachment.
What that means is that if you say one thing in your deposition and then say the opposite at trial, you will be confronted with the differing testimony to call your credibility into question. (The same goes for your ex or any other witness who has been deposed.)
So here's a silly example.
OC at deposition: "Ms. WH, have you ever failed to discard any condiments by their expiration date?"
WH: "Yes, the ketchup had expired."
OC: "What about the mustard?"
WH: "Yes, that too."
At trial, questions are not so open-ended and are designed to force the witness into a specific answer.
OC at trial: "Ms. WH, is it true that you failed to discard ketchup and mustard by their expiration date?"
If you say yes, the deposition Q&A doesn't get used in the courtroom, because there is no contradiction. If you say no, OC will hand you the deposition transcript, direct you to the Q&A about condiments, and ask if you were asked those questions and gave those answers. That's it.
The deposition is a way for lawyers to find those few nuggets of information that they deem useful enough to present at trial.
:yeahthat:
Fine example!
And also shows, why sticking to simple "yes" or "no" answers are valuable. In this case, WH could have left off the added info as to what had expired, mustard or ketchup. That was added information beyond what was required -- and an avenue where you could be tripped up later.
We all tend to want to be helpful and complete in our answers, which is fine in the regular course of life. But in a deposition, it's not.
I'll add my $.02 here. I haven't been deposed in a family law case, but I have been deposed and been an expert witness on the stand in a trial. I learned a lot from that experience, and what the others are saying above is accurate.
If I had it to do over again, I would have kept my answers shorter and more vague in the deposition. Don't commit to anything you don't have to (you do have to be honest and answer the questions that are asked though), and play your cards close to the vest. There were a number of things that I proved the opposing counsel wrong on in the deposition, and not surprisingly those were never mentioned while we were in court. On the other hand, some of the other items where the OC saw a weakness in my statements during the deposition got brought up numerous times and were highly focused on in trial. Knowing what I know now I should have kept more quiet in the deposition, easily shared more information on some things once we got to trial, and put some bigger holes in the case the OC was trying to build.
Unfortunately I wasn't well prepared by our own attorneys when I went through it, but it was a work situation where I had nothing at stake so I'm thankful for the experience now.
One thing to watch for is opposing counsel buddying up to you in an overtly friendly manner.... to get you to smile, and laugh and enter into easy banter.... then they'll use that easy banter against you, or say you must not be too upset about A, B, and C, bc of your demeanor.
This is business. The mission is to get through the deposition without tripping yourself up, or giving away too much of the game. Keep your cool, and answers short.
Eye on the prize. Get through it. No friendly banter. Only the burger, no bun.
:bighug: You can - and will - do it.
And, try not to talk about condiments if you can! In my trial, I explained stbxh upd's rules and gave his insistence that food be consumed in order of expiration date as an example of how he forced me to do things his way. The judge disregarded my testimony about his rules and how he forced me to comply and said that his insistence about food consumption is sound and logical :stars: Lesson learned!
Be concise and focus on the end game. As Hhaw said: burgers.
*despair*
aaaah! I will take notes from all of these suggestions- that will help. I can do this. I have proven myself to be stronger than I ever imagined. For the kids.
Thank you all for your valuable suggestions and comments. I hate this so much. stbx knows I hate this - I like to fade into the background, and now I will be front and center, an open book, so to speak. He can probe and ask whatever he likes (through his L). Because he is in charge, not his L.
I've been through worse living with him. I know deep down, I can do this. It's the fear of the unknown - I have no freaking clue what his L will ask me about. His L already tries to be chummy with me, I try to BIFF it as much as I can. I'll have to sit down and brainstorm anything stbx may think he can use against me...of course I'll be blindsided by some nonsense I never would have dreamed of. I can only pray I handle it with grace and poise. Court is coming up soon, then I will really start to worry about the deposition. :wacko:
I will have the notes from this thread, I'll ask my L friend to practice with me, and I'll practice with my L. I'll also go through my journal ahead of time so it's all fresh- probably the part I'm dreading the most. I prefer to stick my head in the sand so I can take care of the kids.
:bighug:
You CAN do this! I think your ex is doing this deposition in large part to bully you. But I think what he'll find is that you've already grown a lot stronger from being apart from him, and you're not going to cave just because he's trying to abuse the court system to go after you. The deposition is just one day of unpleasantness. But it can't be as unpleasant as the worst day of being married to him, right? And you survived that.
When I get really stressed about not knowing what BM will do next my therapist always tells me "well you know she's going to do something unexpected, right?" Can you think about it like that? You don't know exactly what he'll ask, but you know it'll be unexpected, irrelevant and probably embarrassing or insulting. You can plan for that even if you don't know what the question is. Plan to take a deep breath, wait a beat to give your lawyer a chance to object and you a chance to compose yourself and think of the most minimal way to answer the question. If you can't think of anything ask the lawyer to repeat the question. Take another deep breath and give your answer as emotionlessly as you can.
YOU CAN DO THIS!
Okay, my last little piece of advice:
PAUSE
As in, pause before every answer you make. Don't be in a hurry to answer. Instead, repeat the question you were just asked in your head (or ask the court reporter to read it back). Then, make sure you are answering THAT question -- and that question only. It's okay to take your time. You are running this show, not the lawyer asking you the questions.
Yes, Pannylane, I do feel like this is his chance to bully me, since he hasn't been able to really get to me since I left the house. I will be there, a sitting duck (but well prepared with my secret armor - poise and truth).
Opensky - that's going to be tricky for me. Pausing. I'm used to spilling whatever as fast as I can just to get the attention off of me. It will feel awkward, but I will start practicing at work. Maybe even have my boss (who is also a close friend and knows the story) practice with me.
Pretend you're speaking to a young child you don't want to upset. That should help naturally moderate tone, and cadence.
Yeah, practice your pause! It will serve you well.
I am so angry for you. The system is so f***in broken when a good, stable and loving mother has to spend a shitload of money to defend herself against her sole purpose in life to protect her kids. The system takes advantage of families like this and will squeeze every cent until she has nothing left for her children. It is obvious the ex is not sane and not fit to parent these children. You will do fine. Why?? Because you are not crazy. Stay strong my cyberfriend. Nobody can prove you are not fit no matter what tactic ex tries. Let him look like an idiot. I pray you get a sensible judge that sees right through his crap. Yup. Instead of you having fun times with the kids you are having to get stressed preparing for court. Exactly what the ex wanted. Karma is a bitch. You will do great. Big hug.
:yeahthat:
I agree with LF — the system is woefully inadequate and domestic court and laws haven't advanced very far in terms of understanding mental illness. However, the law and courts do offer an chance for remedy. And to get it, you must take almost every bit of emotion out of yourself to get the best deal for yourself and your kids. Yup, it's infuriating that you have to go through deposition — but it's also an opportunity for you to win and advance a step towards your goals.
You win by being strategic and tactical about exactly how little information they can get from you that they can use against you later. That's really all you have to concentrate on now. And you can tee up other things you WANT to go into the record, like your mentally ill spouse having an unsecured gun in the house.
My recommendation is to spend time deciding exactly what you want out of the legal process and going for that. Don't let some bully of a lawyer get in your way. You are mighty — and smarter than he is. If he was so smart, how did he end up with your ex as a client. You got this!
Hi, WH
The suggestion above to practice your pause in order to hear and think about the question is an excellent one.
Consider using a non-obvious physical cue to remind yourself to PAUSE. For example, you could make yourself breathe in and out before answering. Or tap your toe twice, or wear a bracelet with beads/charms and touch it before you begin to answer. (If you choose the last, try to keep your hands in your lap, below table height.)
The short, non-obvious pause is a great strategy.
But taken to an extreme ...
You may want to check out the YouTube clips of Bill Gates' deposition in the Microsoft antitrust case as an example of what NOT to do.l
White Heron - good luck with your court date and deposition. Remember, you have got a lot going for you. You are sane, a good mother and will do your best. You have got a lot on your plate, but this is much easier than what you have already been through. Stay focused on the end result. :bighug:
Thanks everyone! I truly appreciate the support and words of wisdom from each and every one of you.
I have been through worse. I lived through it. I will get through this.
Quick update:
Court date that was supposed to be next week has been pushed back to the end of next month! stbx's L is a snowbird and not back until then. As if he didn't know he wouldn't be there when the court date was set three months ago... >:(. Nothing like prolonging the agony! Now I have an extra month and a half to worry. I'm trying to see it as more time to prepare and get all of my ducks in a row before I'm put on the hot seat. In all honesty, as much as I was dreading it, I was looking forward to getting it over with.
I did hear that the GAL is finding that things are in line with what I've been saying all along, so maybe more time is a good thing. DD's T also mentioned that the GAL "sees what's going on." Idk exactly what that means, but all I can do is have faith that they can see it. Part of me wants to scream because the kids aren't telling anyone what's going on. They're afraid stbx will find out, so how can the T/GAL know what's truly happening?? There's no way they can know that what they're seeing is only the tip of the PD iceberg. Another part of me is worried that when I'm being told she "sees what's going on" that it means she sees I'm smearing and alienating stbx. Because that's the version he's presented to the court. That's the PD voice inside my head. It's a small voice, but it's there nonetheless.
What if, what if, what if? What if I've said too much to the T and to the GAL and they think I'm alienating the kids? Trying to taint the well, so to speak? Faith. I can only have faith that they see the truth. The not knowing is driving me mad! Ahhh! Ok, time to breathe and get distracted by some weekend projects. Thanks for reading. Hugs to all!
What is the current custody/access arrangement? I know you have been at this for years like me. Are you trying to resolve the custody/access piece? I've been at it since 2013. My custody/access piece is resolved. I have sole and expdh supervised access which he hasn't participated in since 2014. We are current trying to resolve the child support and spousal support issues (he is asking me to pay him spousal). If mediation doesn't work next month then I'm heading to trial. Either way I stand to lose my shirt. In my experience since 2013, the court system is broken. The wheels of Justice move slowly. One party files a paper, the other party has 30 days to respond. Other party waits until very last day and comes up with a reason to stall further, yada, yada, yada. This has been my journey. It's disgusting how our courts work. Adjournment, after adjournment. In your case, it gives you more time to prepare. Use this extra time for you. I get your wanting to get it over with. It's all a game to the lawyers. Stay strong. Big hug.
Another delay?
So sorry White Heron.
Sending you positive vibes.
:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
lifted - custody order is temporary - judge put it in writing to get me out of the house and was based partly on the psych eval - I technically have sole custody and he has visitation - one night a week and eow. I have final say on legal - medical/school/activities, although the order specifically states that we must try to come to an agreement first.
He's demanding 50/50. I'm assuming physical and legal? He and his L aren't specific. His L states stbx wants "50/50 sole possessory custody" as if the children were objects. idk wtf that means. Neither does my L. She's never heard that phrase before (and has worked with stbx's attorney on many occasions). All we know is that's the line stbx's L uses each and every time the L's are in front of the judge. There's no rationale, no proof or reasoning offered - just the demand. If he's questioned, the demand is repeated. It's obviously coming from stbx...and his L is just the mouthpiece.
So our big issue is custody. As for assets, stbx went from declaring I should get 50%, to 40%, to 30% and now he's down to about 25%. It's like reverse negotiation. Give me more and in turn I will offer you less...so grateful a friend offered me a job so I can keep afloat until this is settled!
You're right, it's nothing but a game for them. Meanwhile it's my life and the lives of the kids (although I'm trying to keep things as smooth as possible so they're not affected by any of this). $$ was a huge worry for DS, so he's relieved that I'm back to work now. Somehow he's aware his dad isn't paying child support yet...
thanks for the positive vibes can't turn back!
I'm so sorry that you are trying to sever from a mentally ill man. It's horrible isn't it? Everything is harder, takes longer, costs double in legal fees because they are so combative, stubborn, and unreasonable. None of the usual compromise, mediate, work things out apply. There is zero support or empathy for those of us divorcing a mentally ill spouse. Money is burnt like I can't even explain. I'm so angry for both of us. I've been quoted $64,000 for trial. And I could still lose. Your expd lawyer doesn't sound stable himself if he is letting his client push him around. Let them both be exposed and the judge see right through them. You have nothing to fear. God is in control and He knows your heart and that you are a loving and protective mom.
This is why I waited until my youngest turned 18 and went to college before I left. I hoped it would reduce how much my ex could hurt me and our youngest. At least we could skip the custody battle, right?
Well, it still cost a small fortune, took 3 years, and seriously damaged my health. And the years leading up to my go time were excruciating and hurt me. It's going to years to get my health back.
My takeaway is that the legal system does very little to make things easier for the non spouse or kids from even the most deeply affected PD. There are so many of us out there!
Hang in there. You will get through this.
Whiteheron:
Does your attorney suspect that opposing counsel is using the term "sole possessory custody" in order to alert the Judge to his client's unstable mental health situation?
In court, court officers SEE/UNDERSTAND certain things when they see certain things. Maybe this term is a very clear message, and opposing counsel is sabotaging your PD, at least in small ways?
I looked up that term, and it seems like this is a good thing for you, not for the PD.
I have no idea hhaw, but it's not the first time someone has suggested this to me.
My L does not speculate about things. What she has said, repeatedly, is that she's never seen these kinds of documents come out of his L's office before. Unfounded, speculative, accusatory, with no facts to back them up. I happened to be in her office right after the first affidavit came in. The look on her face said it all. She had no idea why stbx's L had submitted it. 80 pages of unfounded crap followed by pages and pages of personal photographs. She was astounded and confused. stbx's L is supposed to be very good, the document he put his name on was not. She said no lawyer in their right mind would submit that affidavit, and she speculated that stbx might be out of control and this was his L's way of appeasing him.
I was talking to an L friend of mine (completely unrelated field of law) and she suggested that stbx's L may be doing this to sabotage his client. She also suggested the L may be pushing for trial as a way to protect himself from stbx. (either that or make gobs of money off of a man who will pay anything to get back at me). My friend said she's seen this kind of behavior from L's who are going up against a strong plaintiff. idk. I'm just tired of all the games. I've had enough.
opensky - I waited as long as I could to file. I would have waited longer if I wasn't so concerned for DS's mental health. He was the sg at the time and it kept getting worse as he entered his teen years. He was having horrible anxiety and panic attacks.
lifted - I can only assume stbx's L is soaking him for all the $$ he can while he can. It's all just ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time and my (and the kids') peace of mind. I am doing the best I can, but it's exhausting. Not as exhausting as living with stbx...but I feel like I just need a break. It just needs to stop. I know his goal is to wear me down, so I won't stop. Ever. I will fight for what's right for my kids until the end of time if necessary.
You don't have to fight till the end of time, whiteheron.
Just till the kids can protect themselves.
I hope that brings some comfort.
Quote from: Whiteheron on March 17, 2019, 07:16:48 PM
My L does not speculate about things. What she has said, repeatedly, is that she's never seen these kinds of documents come out of his L's office before. Unfounded, speculative, accusatory, with no facts to back them up. I happened to be in her office right after the first affidavit came in. The look on her face said it all. She had no idea why stbx's L had submitted it. 80 pages of unfounded crap followed by pages and pages of personal photographs. She was astounded and confused. stbx's L is supposed to be very good, the document he put his name on was not. She said no lawyer in their right mind would submit that affidavit, and she speculated that stbx might be out of control and this was his L's way of appeasing him.
This sounds very similar to what happened with my divorce. My lawyer was regularly aghast by the emails my ex's attorney sent over, all filled with accusations, off topic stuff, threats, etc. My lawyer had been in family law 30 years and said he'd never seen anything quite like it. It became clear that my ex's lawyer, who was a bit aggressive but smart and reasonable, had to to go along with whatever my ex insisted upon, no matter how nutty or counterproductive it was. By the end, my ex's lawyer could not wait to see the back of him.
As much as I knew all that logically, it was still scary sometimes -- and expensive. And we were just trying to sort out the money. If my kids' custody had been on the table, well, I'd have been a wreck.
Sending you strength and good energy, WH. Hang in there! I think you got this!
:bighug:
I was able to speak to my L friend (too) briefly this week. I will make more time as the date draws near. In the few minutes I was able to talk to her, she told me a lot of what you all have said in this thread - so I thank you once again! She also told me that a deposition wasn't the time to "tell my story." So give no details, explain nothing, give nothing. Simple straightforward answers to inane questions for their fishing expedition. stbx will be so disappointed.