Out of the FOG

I have recently gone NC with my  uNPDm.  It's been a long time coming.  Here is the post that describes how the recent few months have gone. 
https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=79210.0

How do you handle teen children who want to talk to the grandparent you are NC with?  I'm basically getting the silent treatment after setting some basic boundaries.  I'm happy to be NC and feel much better than when I was getting criticized constantly.

One of my children had a graduation this week and both have summer birthdays.  My uNPDm sent a graduation gift.  More gifts will be coming? I'm sure.  My DH insisted that she call to thank her.  The call was ever so slightly guilt trippy.  Lots of i love you and i miss you from my uNPDm.  Telling my DD that she should call her because she misses talking to her.  The call was on speaker phone so my DH and i heard the whole thing. 

I'm of the opinion, if they aren't speaking to me, they shouldn't be speaking to my kids either.  My DH disagrees.  He said the issue is between me and my mother.  How have others handled this?

This is such a challenging problem. I think there's truth in both your and your DH's views. I also think that it might make a difference if your kids are very young teens, or older teens. Obviously one of them is an older teen (graduated).

I took this troubling question to therapy years ago and was also told that I should try to let my kids have their own relationship with our parents, although we had also blocked the ILs from DD's phone since at the beginning of our worst struggles she wasn't even a teenager yet and we didn't feel she was in a position to navigate MIL's incessant focus on her with private invitations to go on vacation with her, telling her to come visit because she loved her so much, etc.

Now that DD is an older teen, we have told her she is free to have whatever type of relationship with her grandparents she wishes to have. We also told DS this when he was still living at home. I frankly have no idea what type of relationship DS has with his grandparents since I don't ask and let him have privacy. My guess is that the contact is very minimal. I do know he doesn't visit his local grandparents when he comes home to visit us.

I didn't go back and read your back story. Most of the stories here are not about really narrow conflicts between 2 people over a very specific and solvable issue. Most that I read about are longstanding, involve lots of abuse and neglect or otherwise confusing and chaotic behavior. They spread to more than "just between 2 people" because of the dynamics of the person we believe to have a PD. While the actual conflict might be between only us, the effects have tended to spread quite far and wide by the time we find this forum.

I know in DH's family system, they tried hard to paint it as a MIL-DIL problem, something LOTS of people have (their words), and I tried to broaden the picture to what was actually true--a longstanding, pervasive problem in a family system that scapegoated and shunned my DH, ignored our DS, favored our DD to the point of excluding all the rest of us, and disrespected me. It's just so much simpler to see it as between 2 people, but I wonder how often that's the actual case when it involves a PD.

One quick thought--regarding thank yous. Could your kids send thank-you notes instead? It would satisfy your DH's wish for your kids to show gratitude, and it would hopefully soothe your fears about them having direct contact with your M, who can use a phone call to create all sorts of discomfort.

I feel like I've wandered around, but basically we were more protective when our kids were younger, but opened the gates more as they got older. Frankly, our kids saw their grandparents' poor and bizarre behavior and felt pity for them and discomfort. Their primary attachment has always been with us, so while they can be polite and kind to their grandparents they prefer to spend time with their friends, us, and other people in their life who are predictably kind, honest and decent.

Hope that helps. This is tough stuff!

If your children were toddlers, this would be easy, but they're not. They are teenagers and one of them is even graduated and therefor an adult or very nearly an adult. I don't think they "belong" to you in this regard anymore than you "belong" to your parents. I would strongly recommend not forcing your children or your husband to choose sides. As difficult as it is, accept that they might have a different relationship with your parents than you do. It might help to think of this the same way you might a divorce. If you were to divorce your children's other parent you should do everything you can to not put your children in the middle. Avoid the temptation to become competitive with the grandparents. Just love your children and be the best parent you can be and let your children come to their own conclusions.

Just like with siblings, your children may decide that your parents, their grandparents, aren't that bad. It doesn't mean that your experiences are invalid just because others in your family didn't have the same experience. PDs often have people in their lives with whom they are really good to and others to whom they are awful to (golden children and scapegoats). So even though it might be hard for you to watch, understand that your children just might have built up a loving a positive relationship with their grandparents and if you step in, it will be you who will be labeled by all sides as the awful one.

I should clarify.  It was a junior high graduation.  So just old enough to really make decisions but not an adult yet. 

Quote from: Sidney37 on June 17, 2019, 07:25:24 AM
I should clarify.  It was a junior high graduation.  So just old enough to really make decisions but not an adult yet.

Oh okay! Sorry.

That does make it more difficult. How old are the kids exactly? If you don't mind me asking.

Maybe it's best to take the children's individual maturity and processing abilities into account. Also, just how close are the kids to their grandparents? Was the phone call to say thank you something your daughter wanted to do or was it more obligation.

I think if the children are genuinely close to grandma and grandpa, I'd recommend treating the situation like a divorce. Explain to them that you have decided that it is no longer good for you to have a relationship with your parents but you respect their wishes for a relationship with them and then do your best to not get involved or triangulate.

If you are not sure, how about a family meeting where you ask your children what kind of relationship if any they want to have with their grandparents, and then do your best to honor that?

That makes a big difference.

At that stage, I tried to make observations about behavior in general, healthy versus nonhealthy. Rather than directly attacking the grandparents, I tried to have conversations with my kids about their behavior that would teach them the qualities of healthy people and leave them to make their own inferences about their grandparents (with some help from me).

ie:

DD: Gma is asking me to go on a trip with her on a text.
me: I'm so sorry to hear that. Dad asked gma to communicate with him directly instead of you. When gma invites you to do things and doesn't include your brother, that's hurtful. It leaves out your brother and creates a division in our family.
DD: I wish she wouldn't do that.
me: What would you like to do?
DD and me: conversation about the options, either her responding or asking DH to respond directly.

Using your example, it might sound more like this:

DD: Hi gma, thanks for the graduation gift!
your M: Oh, I love you! I wish your mom was nicer to me! (etc)
DD: (coached by you ahead of time) Gma, I just wanted to say thank you. I need to go now.
you afterwards: Honey, I'm sorry that was so awkward. Healthy adults don't drag their grandchildren into their conflicts. How are you feeling? Do you want to talk about this? Maybe it would work next time to send gma a card to let her know you appreciate the gift.

Just one idea.

Hi, I'm sorry that you are going through such a rough time.

Only as my opinion, I don't see that you've gone NC with your FOO. Allowing gifts to be sent or calls to your family seems more like VLC. It may become confusing for children to see some level of contact as acceptable, but not others.

Our household is a NC entity. No calls, no emails, no gifts. Anything that shows up is either refused delivery, donated or filed for legal reasons.

Again, just opinion, sorting out what NC should be is pretty much defined as: no contact at all. An assault on 'one of' our family members is an assault on our 'family' and won't be tolerated; and NC will be our response to such.

Hi Sidney37,

What I remember from your Medium Chill post is that you were medium chilling your mother and she got po'd and starting giving you The Silent Treatment.  You tried several times to call her on Mother's Day and she didn't pick up the phone.  Then she sent your dad in as a flying monkey and that did not go over well, as you caught her in some blatant lies.  So now you are letting her make the next move.

Given that context, TwentyTwenty is correct that you are not NC in the strict sense of the word.  My take is that you get to decide what level of contact is right for you.  If you want to remain NC, you have that power.  And if that is the case, I agree that all gifts would go unacknowledged. 

If you are "taking a time out" from your mother now and plan to resume contact in the future, the strategy is the same.  It seems from what you've posted that your DH is continuing to answer the phone for you and be the go-between between you and your mother or dad.  If you want to truly disengage from your mother, I think DH is going to have to get on board with your decision of NC (even if temporary) for it to work.  Otherwise, there is going to be this back and forth with your mother as she tries different tactics to try to vilify you and make you the Scapegoat here.

This gifting to your daughter is nothing more than a tactic used by your mother to try to Divide and Conquer, to paint you as the "bad one" and herself as Saint Grandma.  She's already gotten your DH to acknowledge her gift by him telling your daughter to thank her grandma.  First she gets your DH to engage, and now she's trying to get your daughter to engage.  And then there's Sidney-- who's the problem, right?  (according to her)

So my advice to you is to decide what level of contact is right for you at this point.  If you decide to go NC (and it can just be a Time Out, not permanent, in order to give you time to think things through) then I would communicate to your DH that you need a break from your parents and he needs to block their calls.  This includes calls from your dad, who has acted, and will continue to act, as a Flying Monkey for your mother.  This includes not acknowledging any gifts your mother sends to your daughter which, as I said, are a tactic used to try to get your family on her side against you.  So whether you decide on a permanent NC or a temporary NC, my strategy would be the same-- no engagement by you or your FOO for whatever period you decide to be No Contact.

If, on the other hand, you want a VLC situation where you only engage with your mother and dad on occasion, this is more difficult to execute, as your mother has contact with your DH and now, it appears, with your daughter.  Decide if this is going to work.  It doesn't sound tenable to me.  I think that whatever level of contact you decide on, your DH and daughter needs to be on board with it--  A United Front.  That way, your mother's Divide and Conquer strategy will fail.  What you don't want is for your mother to have your DH and daughter "on her side" against you.  And it already sounds like your DH is thinking along the lines of "it's Sidney's problem".  And you don't want to send your mother mixed messages-- i.e., you aren't engaging with her but your DH and daughter are willing to.  That's intermittent reinforcement (more on this in the Toolbox.)

Just my two cents.  You are trying to navigate rough waters here.

Thanks all.  My daughter intercepted the card/gift from the mailbox as she gets the mail daily when getting off the bus.  It's her job and she likes it.  It certainly caught me off guard.  I'm trying to get my DH on board with the NC.  It isn't quite working.  He tells me that he supports it, but is answering my dad's calls and thinks that gifts to the kids are ok.  I disagree, but it's certainly become more of a challenge.  They are turning 14 and 11.  The 11 year old was always the ignored one - not quite a scape goat but not the GC that the older one is to my uPDM.

I find it upsetting that your DH is in such a different place than you are. Both my and DH's families attempted this type of interference. With DH's family, they would only speak to me. With my family, they attempt to only speak to DH. I see it as a divide and conquer, or at the very least a really unhealthy dynamic.

And I repeat, thank-yous do not need to be by phone.

Thanks a4p.  I wish he agreed.  He is so conflict avoidant that he thinks I can be NC without him and our kids being NC.  So now that he is convinced  that the kids talk should talk to them he got a phone call from my enD this week insisting that one of my kids stay with my parents for a week over the summer.   :stars:  DH wants me to call my enD back and deal with it!  :aaauuugh:  No. 

Hi.  This is an update.  I've posted various places here, but I'm now officially NC, numbers blocked, email blocked, etc. with my parents after some unforgivable things were said to me.  I'm certain it will stay this way.

My teen DD sees a therapist for anxiety.   The therapist insists that if I ban my DD from talking to her grandmother, DD will blame me at some point.  It's better for me to let her learn on her own what her grandmother is like.  The therapist says she'll deal with the fall out. 

I'm so afraid that uNPDm will manipulate DD and DD won't even realize it.  She'll turn her against me. We have loved everything else this therapist had done.  She's been amazing.  But I'm not sure this is a good idea.   Thoughts?

Is your T willing to have a session with both you and your DD? Does your T have good guidance for how to deal with this very real and understandable fear? I had this fear also, brought my fear to T also, was also told that I should let my kids decide this on their own, and it was terrifying. I have and I think so far all is ok. But it is a very real and understandable fear.

I'd have a talk with all your children, individually, about grandma, in age-appropriate terms, and compare her to a bully. 

I think that's most likely to get a response, because your kids have either seen it, or experienced it (I hope not!), and will be able to relate to your words.

Then listen to what they have to say - you might be VERY surprised how they feel about their grandmother, and how she makes them feel. 

Explain that you're not *punishing* grandma, but *protecting yourself and the kids from her.*  :yes:

Explain that grandma doesn't like the word no, and doesn't respect simple boundaries - like asking her to stop doing something you find upsetting or annoying.  She'll keep doing it, just to see you squirm and hurt. 

Explain that you don't want them growing up like you did, afraid of what she was going to say or do next, which caused a lot of anxiety in you, as well as emotional and physical distress. 

You don't want her body-shaming, or nit-picking their appearances, or mocking or scoffing their decisions, grades, classes, friends, or *any* of the choices they make, now and as they get older.

Explain you want your kids to be free to be themselves, and be comfortable in their own skins, happy with their decisions, and not have them second-guessed by somebody who should be old enough to know better, but just can't help herself - because that's how she is, and she's just never going to change.

I think if you lay out the big picture, keep emotion out of it, and stick to *facts* about your childhood, the things she's said or done to the kids (that you know about), and you don't *like* seeing the kids upset - that might really go a long way toward helping them understand, and your DD's T won't be so adamant about having cleaning up the fallout from your DD interacting with your mom, and finding out on her own just what she's like.

I think your DD may have already found out - and is probably struggling with it, just like most of us did when we put the pieces together.  :'(

I don't like that her T is pushing for a relationship, so your DD can find out for herself - that seems like setting her up to fail, IMO.

And as I said, I think your DD has seen and heard *plenty* - and just doesn't quite know how to process it all yet, which is why I think speaking to her is *crucial.*  :yes:

And I definitely don't agree with your DH insisting the kids call grandma when cards or gifts come.  IMO, if YOU are NC, so are the kids, and with NC the expectation of the thank-you call goes right out the window, because it's *forced, unwanted contact.*  >:(

Your DH sounds a lot like mine - he kept insisting I was *mad* at Didi when I wasn't - and he really didn't get it until she started verbally attacking him, thinking DH was the cause of me lowering contact, and using boundaries (she never mentioned them, but things WERE different!).   :aaauuugh:

That's when he really started to understand - she'd always been civil to him, up to that point, so he'd liked her, but his eyes started to open to what I'd been saying, all along.

There's a good chance that will happen with your DH, too - when the holiday season starts rolling around and you maintain NC.

Your mom may start to escalate, using FMM's, borrowing phones, starting a smear campaign that names your DH as abusive and controlling - THAT'S when he's going to see what he's really dealing with. 

But even if that doesn't happen, I'd tell DH, "Honey, I love you, but I'm their mom, and if I'm no contact, the kids are too, and shouldn't be forced to thank them for gifts we didn't ask them to send.  By forcing the kids to call somebody they really don't like, you're telling them it's okay to have others trample their boundaries, and I really don't think that's a good example to set." 

You know him best - you'll choose the right words.  :)  :kisscheek:

Starboard Song's wife recently had a talk with their 17-yo DS about NC with her parents (it's been going on since he was 12), and he said some of his son's responses were eye-popping.

Don't be surprised if you kids give you the same kind of responses, especially if you equate grandma with a bully, and that her behavior is the same. 

Having a PD in the family doesn't have to pull us apart - it can make us grow stronger, in the face of adversity, knowing we don't have to do it *alone* and we can speak to others, without fear of shame, guilt, or reprisal - which is why this forum is so amazing.  8-)

You can bring a little piece of it into your  home, and hopefully have the same result.  :sunny:

:hug:

Thanks.  DH totally changed his tune about thank you calls after the lies, manipulation and suicide threats that were blamed on me.  He's on the same page with me.  Neither of us plans to talk to her ever and will probably only talk to enD if he leaves her.

The call happened.  UPDM totally manipulated her golden child - my DD.  My daughter can't see it because "grandma loves me best".  :stars:  "She's always nice to me!"  :stars:  She thinks if i was just nice to grandma, grandma would be nice back.  Grandma just has anxiety and can't help herself.  Unfortunately that's how we defended uPDM years ago,  DD thinks grandma is anxious like she is and they are just alike! 

DH tried to explain how uPDM treats the rest of us.  DD doesn't seem to care as long as grandma us nice to her.  UPDm also tried to get DD to tell her what she wants for Christmas (IT'S AUGUST!).  DD was so excited.  This is my uPDM who buys DD more and more expensive gifts than DS because DS "is too stupid" to know any better.  She wanted me to unwrap gifts from
other relatives do she could buy DD better gifts than anyone else did, 

So I guess my DD gets to be my uPDm's golden child and there is little I can do about it.

Hi Sidney37,

So glad your DH is on board with you on this! 

Regarding your daughter, you post "there is little you can do," but I think there is a lot you can do.  First, I would find another T for your daughter-- one who understands PDs and their manipulation.  It seems pretty obvious to me that the current T doesn't understand the PD dysfunctional dynamic and how PDs frequently portray one side of Janus to others and reserve the nasty side for their Scapegoats.  As such your daughter doesn't understand the dark side of Janus that your mother displays to you because she's never seen it.

Your mother is obviously manipulating your daughter in a Divide and Conquer strategy.  If you desire NC, I think that has to apply to your daughter as well.  Without a united front, your mother will swoop in and likely start trying to turn your daughter against you.  Time to explain to your daughter that there are things she doesn't understand about grandma and, for now, her seeing and engaging with grandma-- including receipt of gifts-- is not acceptable.

I don't think your daughter should be allowed to engage with your mother at this point, as your mother is trying to "weaponize" your daughter and use her as a pawn, just like she uses your enD as a FM. 

Likely your daughter won't like that she can't accept gifts from her grandma, but I personally would rather have that than allowing your daughter to be used as a pawn against you.  The thing is, you know more than your daughter in this situation.  Maybe try to explain to her that it's a complicated situation, but you and your DH have to limit contact with grandma because she is hurting your family.  That your daughter's anxiety and grandma's mental illness are not the same thing.  Keep stressing that both you AND your DH agree that for now, contact with grandma has to be limited because of how she has told lies and hurt the family.  Then tell her that for now, all gifts from grandma will be returned to grandma, unopened. 

Thanks.  My DH agrees with both of you about this.  We are very hesitant to leave the therapist, though.  DD has seen several since she was very young for genetic anxiety (and having uPDM's dysfunction to deal with hasn't helped).  This is the only therapist who has helped with the anxiety.  For the anxiety, she has been fabulous.  She just doesn't seem to get PDs even though she insists that she does.  She insists that my relationship with DD will be worse if I ban her from talking to UPDm.  She will hold it against me or blame me for it in the long run.  We don't want her sneaking around to talk to her.  DH had his version of the bully conversation with DD yesterday.  He didn't use the word bully, but will the next time.  We're hesitant to tell DD that uPDM emailed and said that enD was going to kill himself and it was all my fault.  DD will insist that I fix this before that happens to save her grandfather from harm.  But she needs to know the harm that uPDM can do and will do.  DH did question DD as to whether uPDM asked about her brother.  Of course not.  DD is the GC.  uPDM told us when I was pregnant that she didn't think she could love DS because he was a boy and she only liked girls.  When DD ended up a sporty tom-boy and DS liked to cook, shop, play board games with her and fed her supply, it all changed. 

What might be the single best book to share with the therapist to help her understand that DD is being manipulated, used as a pawn and source of information?  I have a stack of the most recommended books that all of you have recommended and therapists over the years have recommended.  The call yesterday was to mine for info about me and our family without directly asking about me.  All with a sickly sweet tone and gift manipulation.  It can't continue this way.  Just hearing my mother's voice on the phone (DD walked through the room with UPDm on speaker phone) made me physically sick and feeling "ragey". 

I understand not wanting to find another therapist for your daughter, but if I stuck it out with that T, I would not discuss the situation concerning limiting contact with your mother.  In fact, I wouldn't discuss your mother at all.  The T doesn't get it and showing her a book on PDs when she hasn't formally studied or had experience in that area won't be enough to "clue her in" IMHO. 

And just because the T "insists that your relationship with DD will be worse if you ban her from talking with [your mother]" doesn't make it so.  That might or might not happen.  You are taking advice from someone who doesn't have the experience of dealing with PDs or clients with PD relatives, so I wouldn't place a lot of stock in that.

This is your call.  You have to decide what is best for you and your family.  From what you've posted about your mother, I don't believe that your NC will work very well unless your entire family is supportive in this.  And that includes your daughter.  Too easy for your mother to latch onto your daughter and brainwash her into believing that grandma is the "good grandma" and you are the "bad" one. 

NC means No Contact.  So if that's what you want, then I would work extremely hard to get everyone on board in your family here.  The drawbridge needs to go up in the castle.  Your mother doesn't need to even get a toe in the door.  If she does, I don't think this will work. 

I agree - everybody has to be on board with NC, or you're going to have problems - and your poor DD will probably wind up drinking grandma's kool-aid.

I'd ask *your* T for the names of books you can  read, to best explain the situation to DD.  :)

Talking out situations where grandma was mean to everybody but DD might be helpful, too - and asking your DD if she thinks it's fair that grandma is only nice to her, but treats everybody else poorly.  Would she be friends with that person at school, or would she avoid them?

Ask if she's ever known anybody like that - with one special friend they dote on -  who suddenly turns on that friend and paints them as mean or cruel, the second the friend does something the Queen Bee friend doesn't like.  Ask your DD how she felt watching the shunned friend try endlessly to make amends to the Queen Bee, only to be mocked, scorned and rebuffed.   :'(

Another thing I'd do is *stop letting DD get the mail.*  Yes, she enjoys it, but it's up to you, as adults, to police the mail and pull out anything you don't want the kids to have - like cards, letters or gifts from grandma.

Since the holidays have come up, I think you and DH should probably discuss what to do with unwanted  gifts - personally, I wouldn't want the kids to know they arrived, and would either donate or bin them before the kids have a chance to see or find them.  That includes cards and letters, too.  :yes:

If grandma isn't trying to insert herself constantly, she might become a non-issue to your DD, which will hopefully alleviate some of her anxiety.

The sooner you pull up the drawbridge - NO contact means just that - NO CONTACT, for *anybody* - the easier it will be to get a handle on the situation.  :yes:

:hug:

Starboard Song has a really good phrase for this kind of situation, regarding people who try to pull families apart or something along that line.

Maybe it would help to focus on how gma treats the entire family, versus each of you individually. My DD was also targeted for favoritism, and my own parents (when given the chance) are SO good to my kids, so I understand how confusing it can get. But when talking how the entire family is treated, and put in the context of your other healthy relationships, it can get clearer for our kids.

Think of it like putting your daughter into a pool of toxic sludge. It's your job to protect her from the sludge. I know that my kids at that age were super impressionable and it was easy for grandma manipulate. They were too young to fend off the manipulation.  My uBPDm was telling
my kids things about me that were pretty bad. Kids need to feel good about their parents. This creates stability. When they are hearing confusing things about mom and dad it does a lot of damage especially when it's coming from someone they think they can trust. I had to look at it as protecting my kids from abuse. Because whether she does it sooner or later, it will happen.  It may not look like abuse, I mean look how much she rotes on your daughter. But how can your daughter feel good about herself when she's complicit in taking down her sibling  She can't stand up and say hey my sibling is good too! Cause grandma wouldn't stand for that kind of talk. So she has to hide that and or agree.  I decided that I may not have control of the people my children are exposed to but I'm not going to knowingly put them in a harmful situation. I'm sorry if this comes off blunt. I do not know your situation and perhaps the baggage from my own situation is triggering me. I also want to say how sorry I am that you are put into this position at all.  Whatever you decide, it is a tough decision. One that no one should have to make.

Just wanted to add to my last post and in regards to treating this like a divorce. Even in a divorce there are rules not to disparage the other spouse. Doing so is called parental alienation and it is an offense that the courts recognize iand will take the kids away from the parent doing the alienation. So maybe it can work if she doesn't violate those basic rules otherwise I would not allow contact.

Quote from: ICantThinkOfAName on August 30, 2019, 12:12:05 AM
...But how can your daughter feel good about herself when she's complicit in taking down her sibling  She can't stand up and say hey my sibling is good too! Cause grandma wouldn't stand for that kind of talk. So she has to hide that and or agree.

This is a good point.  Your daughter will feel the pull from her grandmother to malign her brother.  That can't be healthy.

I grew up a Scapegoat.  My GC brother, whom my NM showed extreme favortism to, saw a different "mom" than I did.  NM's black and white thinking invariably took over and she could never see me as doing anything right.  Conversely, she could never see my GC brother as doing anything wrong.  This type of dysfunctional dynamic tends to pit siblings against each other.  The damage from this can be far-reaching.

While extreme favoritism toward one child is abhorrent, also abhorrent is your mother's need for revenge toward you for setting boundaries.  I believe she is in the "amassing" stage-- trying to get your daughter on her side so she can amass a little army to assault your character.  It wouldn't surprise me if your mother told your daughter the same lies she tried to pass off on you-- that you were responsible for your father's descent into considering self-harm.  She may very well do this as a preventative measure.  That way, if your daughter says anything to her, she can counter with "Your mother (Sidney) is responsible for your grandfather's depression."  Etc., etc., etc.  So there may be a "preemptive" strike on your mother's part, in order to make sure your daughter knows the "real truth" about her grandfather instead of the "lies" her mother has told in this regard.  This is so fucked up I don't even have words.  But I believe it can happen because I have seen the lies and lengths Ns are willing to go to in order to get their revenge.

If you feel you must allow your daughter to engage with your mother, I would make damn sure there is no "alone" time between your daughter and your mother.  That means that all phone calls would be put on speaker so that you and/or your DH can be privy to the bullsh*t your mother is feeding your daughter.

Ditto for any visits.  No unsupervised visits, period.  You and/or DH needs to be in on every single communication between your mother and your daughter to make sure your mother is not peddling her lies.

Ideally, as I said in my former posts, your daughter needs to be isolated from your mother so your mother can't manipulate her.  If this is not possible, or you don't feel it's possible, I would very closely monitor any contact between them.  And even if that is the case, I would expect that your mother is going to go to great lengths to try to use your daughter as a pawn in her game of revenge to punish you for setting boundaries.  Despite your best efforts to prevent this, if you decide to allow contact between your mother and your daughter, there is the possibility that your mother will be able to manipulate your daughter into seeing her side.   :yes:

hello  so sorry you are going thru this divide and conquer thing she is doing...i'm going thru something very similar
I would be worried about your son he is going to think he is less of a person or second fiddle.
Your NM has got to know that both children are to be treated equally.   they are not doing this and your T does not understand the concept
perhaps you can let your daughter know this concept and how it negatively impacts her brother..... and it WILL
if your daughter understands how her brother feels maybe she will step back and look at his feelings and the BIG PICTURE

The gifts are a BRIBE.  someone should tell your NM that your SON is just as important as your daughter and until they recognize this..... NO GIFTS.

do not leave your daughter alone with her.... I did,  and my NM told her bad things about me yelling at her... My nm then gave my daughter a gift of cash but alienated my son even further  because  as she said  "he doesn't do anything for me why would I do anything for him"., making my son feel guilt   
 

I beleive that if you knew something was dangerously wrong with your Borderline parent when you were a kid, your kids will feel the same way.  Kids now. However, they often feel the need to be loyal, protect and make it right.

Quote from: illogical on August 30, 2019, 04:04:10 PM
If you feel you must allow your daughter to engage with your mother, I would make damn sure there is no "alone" time between your daughter and your mother.  That means that all phone calls would be put on speaker so that you and/or your DH can be privy to the bullsh*t your mother is feeding your daughter.

Ditto for any visits.  No unsupervised visits, period.  You and/or DH needs to be in on every single communication between your mother and your daughter to make sure your mother is not peddling her lies.

I'm VLC with my Nmom. She only sees the kids supervised and through online chats that I'm in earshot for. As needed we've had talks about setting boundaries with her (like if she keeps on a topic they don't want to talk about anymore), information diet tactics and even MC. I've tried to make it clear that this is how she is, but that doesn't mean they have to uncomfortable, they have the option of leaving the call, getting me, and so on) It's a bit stressful for me but I thought the kids deserved to try to have a relationship, or at least not exit out without understand what was happening. (still not sure this was the best way to go, but this has led to the GC, my oldest daughter, to start realizing the type of person my mom is. )
The calls gave her just enough rope to hang herself with. My daughter was showing support for a group of marginalized people and mom managed to put her foot in it because she has no empathy. Now my daughter will talk with her but she goes with her eyes more open.

Thanks all.  The kids' devices now have the grandparents blocked after NPDm started guilt tripping my teen daughter by text recently. (Don't ever forget about me... I might never see you again... you have to call your grandfather at this specific time or we won't talk to you...constant demands for DD to call them to tell them what we are all up to...)  I didn't agree, but the therapist suggested that we wait until the PD behavior was directed at DD so that DD saw for herself what was going on.  If not, she might blame us for years for keeping her from her grandparents.  We had apparently covered for PDm's terrible behavior quite well over the years, so DD was seeing her through rose colored glasses so to speak.  I didn't think I could be NC while DD was still in communication, but therapist insisted that I could.   :stars:

We stopped covering, started answering questions about my childhood honestly, answered questions about UPDm's current behavior honestly and let DD see the truth without really pushing it on our end.  UPDM showed her behavior without us having to tell DD what she is like.  Well the glasses are off and DD asked us to block uPDm from her phone as well.  It didn't take nearly as long as I thought.  I hated that it happened.  Seeing DD cry for hours over the mean things that were directed at her was awful for me.  I'm not sure I agree with the therapist that it was the best way, but she knows now. 

Sidney37, our T also advised letting our kids have some level of access, but then was also supportive with us blocknig mil when uNBPDmil used that access to guilt trip and manipulate DD. At that point, DD was in agreement that mil be blocked. I think there's a difference between hurt and harm, and I'm thankful that we allowed our kids to see "enough" to understand but not enough to harm them. Remember that your daughter's primary attachment is with you, and that while your M can hurt her it will likely not be anything nearly as impactful as your DD's relationship with you. I hope that your DD adjusts and settles into this new reality, and that your family starts healing.

So sorry this happened, Sidney 37.

Glad your DD saw through your mother's manipulation and abuse, though.  Take care!  :hug:

We were rejected by my MIL when our DS was 12.  That rejection of us turned to NC when their rejection and treatment treatment was leavened with spasms of verbal abuse. On that basis, we believed NC was a decision we had to make for ourselves and our DS13. He has had no further contact with those grandparents in 4 years.

If he had been younger than 13 I'd have felt far less conflicted about this sad outcome. Younger than 10 and it would have been a snap. If he had been 16 or so, is have felt that he deserved to make up his own mind. And indeed, we've now given him a choice of whether to receive mail from them: he has chosen not to.

This was a fact: at no age do you allow continued engagement if that requires you to endure any actual abuse. Attempts to arrange visits with my DS ended in my MIL telling us again how much she hated us,  how sick and twisted we were, and that the only goal she had was to get us out of her life.

I'd we had chosen to allow continued engagement, in such a situation, I don't understand how it could be unsupervised.

This may be the line all4peace is referencing, for I repeat it often:

A kind and loving grandparent is a treasure. A grandparent who is not reliably loving and kind is not a treasure. And an abusive parent is bad timber with which to construct a proper grandparent.

Or maybe she meant this, regarding the primary importance of your marriage:

We must never allow those who cannot reliably love us to tear us from those who do.

This challenge you face is uncommon and poorly understood. Chances are, you-today strongly disagree with you-last-year. Maybe even with you-last-week. So we cannot expect our spouses -- we shouldn't expect our spouses -- to be in lock step with us. It is our special, chosen burden to assume that their too cold and our too hot are good for each other. They blend well.

Acti when you and DH don't see eye to eye, talk it to death. Figure out really exactly why. And don't forget to ask how recently you thought like he does now.

I encourage you to begin with standards of behavior you each believe you deserve to expect from others. And see what boundaries you can agree to. One step at a time I believe you can get there.

Quote from: Starboard Song on October 05, 2019, 03:31:57 PM
...This challenge you face is uncommon and poorly understood. Chances are, you-today strongly disagree with you-last-year. Maybe even with you-last-week. So we cannot expect our spouses -- we shouldn't expect our spouses -- to be in lock step with us. It is our special, chosen burden to assume that their too cold and our too hot are good for each other. They blend well.

That's very true-- I don't believe that we can expect our partners will be "in lock step".  I do think that this can go a couple of ways--

One, the partner hasn't been raised by PD parents and finds it difficult to fathom how abusive and damaging they can be.

Second, the partner hasn't been raised by PD parents and can see more clearly what we can't-- i.e., they can be more objective about the situation because they aren't too close to the situation or in the dysfunctional web.

In the first case, I think it's up to us to try to educate them about PDs by sharing our experiences and knowledge.  It can be hard, though, to try to explain to someone raised by normal parents the complicated dynamic of dysfunction.

In the second case, it can be enlightening, them seeing things through a different prism, maybe seeing things for how they really are-- all the manipulation and such-- rather than being blinded to it because they have been brainwashed and groomed as we have, and often so close to the dysfunction we can't really see the forest for the trees.  Just me rambling on.... :yes: