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Coping with Personality Disorders => Dealing with PD Siblings and other Family Members => Topic started by: Crash86 on July 08, 2019, 07:45:36 PM

Title: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: Crash86 on July 08, 2019, 07:45:36 PM
My sister is coming to visit us (me and my mother live together) in August and I'm already starting to feel anxious...

Last time she visited us it was very difficult, you know, the usual, complaining about everything, playing the victim role and trying to get attention all the time, she even got mad at me because I "ignore her".

I've realized that my sister is now full or almost full NPD and it's been devastating for me. I always had some hope that me and my sister could help each other and share the same views regarding our covert narc father, but no way, she's her golden child and it's getting worse each year.

I'm in VLC with both my sister and dad and I was in NC for 5 years with my dad.

When she got mad at me during her last visit, I couldn't help it and started to speak what I think. How our father is a narc, how he's damaged us and confronted us, how he uses us, etc. She was like ok ok, I know but what has all of this anything to do with me? ... So... it was like speaking to a wall. The next day I got a whatsapp fom her saying that she's sorry that I feel anxious about all of this and that maybe I could go to therapy ... I didn't bother to answer.

After two weeks I send her an email saying that we live in very different worlds and that there's no need to view each other every 3 or 6 months or call each other. That I hope she doesn't get mad if from now on I won't phone her very often (not that I did before anyway) because I need to take care of myself, and that even if we are family we shouldn't feel obligued to call each other or visit each other, it should all feel natural. That she can count with me for important things and that was it.  And also, since me and my mother live together I told her that I don't like to have people at home (which is a semi-truth) and I told her that I could pay for her hotel since I'm not allowing her to sleep at home (there's plenty of space lol).

Well, she called my mum a few days ago and said that is planning to visit us and told her that she will phone me regarding the money for the hotel etc saying that she will pay half and I'll pay the other half. I didn't bother to wail for her call and I sent her a whatsapp saying that my mother has told me everything and that's fine, that she can count with me paying half the hotel. And it's been silence since then.

I'm feeling very anxious and upset, I don't really want to see her and even though at least she won't be sleeping in home I'm leaning towards don't seeing her. I've been contemplating going NC with both my sister and father during almost a year but I don't know how, if I should write a letter or not etc. I also had hopes that by not emailing them or calling them everything would be easier, and it is until they phone me or email me, then I feel again the anxiety and anger.

I don't know what to do, should I send her an email telling her that I don't wanna see her? Do I make the effort of seeing her a couple of days and see how it goes? I'm very upset and sad because this is the realization that my sister is NPD and after having to deal with my father, having to deal now with her is devastating.

Anyway, hopefully somebody can show me some light because right now I have no clue about what to do.
Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: doglady on July 08, 2019, 11:13:33 PM
Ok, a lot of red flags here.

First of all, you do simply not have to put up with your sister’s treatment of you.

Her last visit sounded highly unpleasant, so ask yourself the following: why would you want to subject yourself to a repeat performance of her self-victimising, complaining, being rude and ignoring you?

It’s also interesting that you recently emailed her letting her know that you wanted less contact and then not long after that she contacted your mother to say she’s visiting. In doing that, she’s not considering your feelings at all. She wants to do what she wants to do. And too bad how you feel about it.

You could always just postpone her visit (like, forever  ;) ).But if she insists on coming to your town anyway then of course you can’t stop her. But you don’t have to see her. By the way, I think your boundary of not letting her stay at your place is an excellent idea. Not sure why you’re paying half though. Perhaps if you say you can’t/won’t do that, she’ll say she *has* to stay with you. You can still say No and she doesn’t have to be happy about it. Her emotions are not something you have to take care of.  :no:

As far as her understanding or sharing your ideas about your father, maybe she never will. You may never convince her that he is toxic. You and her don’t have to agree on what type of person he is. If you find him awful and prefer to have no contact then that is your rightful decision as an adult. And she can make whatever decision she likes in regard to him too. That’s her right. It sounds like an energy-sucking exercise to convince her of anything, frankly.

My rule of thumb these days is: would I put up with a friend treating me like this?  :no:
We don’t have to put up with shit just because it’s faaaaaaaaaamileeeeee.

Good luck. I look forward to an update. You’ve got this!
Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: WomanInterrupted on July 09, 2019, 02:16:05 AM
Hi Crash - that sounds like a *really* awkward and uncomfortable situation, and I'm sorry you're going through it.

Your sister invited herself and expects you to pay half her hotel?   :???:

Anybody who invites themselves to ours is promptly UNinvited with Medium Chill:  That doesn't work for us.  We'll get back to you with times that are more convenient.   :ninja:

And then you just *don't.*  :evil2:

You don't have to give her a reason - that's JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain).  The proper Medium Chill responses are you're busy, you've got a lot going on, you're swamped at work, your schedules are in flux right now, you're not even sure if you're going to be in town - things like that.  :)

Medium Chill is in the Toolbox and it's a *godsend* when it comes to communication with PDs.  We give them *no* information - but spell out clear *boundaries.*  8-)

If your sister emails in a few weeks and asks why you  haven't gotten back to her yet, tell her you still don't have a clear idea of what's going on and *you will let her know.*   :yes:

In other words, keep pushing and this is a non-starter.  There will be NO visit.   :thumbdown:

If your sister, in true narc fashion, won't *stop* trying to pin you down, that's when you really have to put on your big girl panties, straighten your spine and say, "This year doesn't work for us - we'll have to revisit the subject next summer."   :ninja:

Again - you don't give a reason.  She is not *owed* any sort of explanation.   :yes:

If she wants to know why, be a broken record:  "I already told you this year doesn't work for us."

If she says she's coming anyway and you BETTER be there, and pay for half her hotel, I'd say only, "That doesn't work for us."   :ninja:

And I'd make a point to  be out of town that week, or stay in a hotel while she's there.  If you stay home, remember that just because she shows up, doesn't mean you HAVE to open the door.   :yes:

You can let her knock until she leaves - and if she puts up a stink, you can always call the police and have her removed from  the premises.  :police:

Just because she makes an edict, doesn't mean she has to be *obeyed.*  It's *your* house and YOUR life - you call the shots, and calling the shots often means using *boundaries.* :sunny:

If you'd like to learn more on the subject of boundaries, a great book by Cloud and Townsend is, "Boudaries."  You can get it in various formats on Amazon, and it will teach you all the things you *should* have learned when you were small, but nobody bothered, because they wouldn't know what a boundary is if it walked up and introduced itself!  :roll:

If your mother kicks up a stink about your sister not visiting, and tries blaming you, a great way to get out of that one is, "Why don't you go visit HER?"   :ninja:

If she comes up with a bunch of excuses, well, that's on her - but you don't have to put up with your sister, just because your mom  wants to see her.  Put it back on *your mom's* shoulders with, "I'm sure you'll figure out something, but I don't have time to spend with her, and won't pay for her hotel."   :ninja:

Sometimes you just have to put your foot down - they won't like it, but *tough.*  8-)

Just remember - your house.  Your life.  YOU make the rules on who visits - and who doesn't.  Nobody gets to *inflict* themselves on you by announcing an unwanted visit, and expecting you to pay half.

Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: goodgirl on July 09, 2019, 11:36:34 AM
Hey, Crash! Sorry for what you're going through. You've already got a lot of good advice, but I'm going to throw out a few more questions and suggestions:

How long does Sister plan to visit?  As someone else suggested, seems like you could suddenly have to be out of town yourself for at least part of that time, right? Then your mom can play hostess instead of you.

I totally understand the complication of your mother. The extremely wise WI suggested just telling Sister she can't visit and that Mom will have to make her own plans to see her, but as someone who is personally trapped in a similar situation, I know how hard that can be. Which is why the "oh no, i suddenly have to be out of town, well you and Mom enjoy your visit" strategy could be a lifesaver.

BUT if you DO get out of town, don't be surprised if Mom lets Sister stay at the house. I mean, if the reason Sister can't stay there is that is causes you anxiety, they will both conclude that's no longer an issue if you are not there.  Just be prepared, and maybe make sure any personal things you don't want Sister getting into are well-secured (if you think she's a snooper).  BUT if this DOES happen, demand your hotel money back!!
Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: Crash86 on July 09, 2019, 01:57:33 PM
Thank  you for all your comments. Just to clarify, mum is 100% with me, she was the co dependant until she divorced my cover narc father 17 years ago, and it's always been my only support in the family. In fact, my mother and my sister have a very difficult relationship.

That's why I'm thinking about writing my sister a short email telling her that I won't be seeing her on August because I need more space and time (in line with what I wrote her on my last email) and let my mother and her daughter reorganize what they want. Of course that leaves the money out of the question since I won't be seeing her.

Do you think it's a good decision? My mother won't blame me for anything if my sister decides to cancel her visit because of my email, in fact, she'll be relieved.
Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: WomanInterrupted on July 09, 2019, 03:25:49 PM
Crash, I think that's a bit too vague - she might insist on coming anyway, since you haven't *uninvited* her.

I think I'd say something like:


As I stated in my last email, I need space.  An August visit won't work.  I'll let you know when a better time will be.

You and mom are welcome to make your own plans, but I won't be involved.


Is it chilly and business-like?  Yes.  Is it low-key?  Yes.  You don't want to make her angry, but you want to be *absolutely clear* - NO, this is not happening.  She doesn't get to invite herself, ever.  :ninja:

Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: Crash86 on July 09, 2019, 04:31:26 PM
Thank you Womaninterrupted, it's so hard to write these kind of emails.

I'm still afraid that she will come anyway, she will be like "Ok, I won't be seeing you but I'm coming anyway to visit our mother".

But at least I won't be seeing her, or paying anything, and I'll be making clearer boundaries. And I don't have to leave my house just because she's coming, she has to respect that. And at least my mother is on my side and won't create further drama.

It really sucks that it takes all this effort to communicate simply things, and that a simple visit, phone call/email creates all this drama and tension but anyway, it has to be done.  :yes:
Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: WomanInterrupted on July 09, 2019, 04:46:59 PM

Your sister doesn't get to decide anything.  That's the whole point of having boundaries.  When you say, "NO" - it is  to be respected and taken at face value.  :yes:

If your sister says she's coming anyway to visit your mom, send back, "That doesn't work for us.  I'll get back to you on a better time to schedule a visit."   :ninja:

If she insists she's coming, regardless of what you or your mom think, it might be time to play hard-ball:


I've tried to be nice, but we really don't want you to visit.  Please respect our wishes and stay home.  We'll revisit this topic next year.


When somebody keeps pushing, there has to be a *consequence* to the behavior.  The consequence, in this case, is she doesn't get to visit this year.  (If that's what you decide, of course!)  :)



I've already told you no.  Please respect our wishes.


Again, you've taken back your *power* - since you and your mom are the ones living there, you call the shots.  Your sister  only gets to agree to dates *you choose* - and on your terms.  :yes:

If you choose to *never* have her visit again, that's  your *choice* and it's OKAY.  You don't have to suffer in silence, just because your sister wants something, or is used to getting her way.

Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: gettingstronger1 on July 10, 2019, 12:17:28 AM
I agree with the others that it is completely ok to tell her "no you may not visit."  You do not have to offer her an explanation as to why.  As they say, no is a complete sentence.   Don't feel guilty for setting a boundary.  You are not responsible for how she feels when you tell her "no, you may not come." Also follow your instinct, if she makes you uncomfortable and you experience anxiety at the thought of her coming you don't have to visit and put yourself through that much anxiety just because she is family.

My sister recently requested that we get together for lunch.  Because she has hurt me so many times in the past and has no remorse, I politely wished her well but said I would not be coming. I offered no explanation as to why I would not be coming.  I haven't heard from her since. 

Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: WomanInterrupted on July 10, 2019, 02:11:36 AM
Gettingstronger is right - often, we've been made to feel guilty, bad or wrong for setting boundaries, but they're normal and necessary for everyday living.   :)

Say you have to cancel an appointment for next week:  do you call and say, "I need to postpone an appointment and reschedule it for X day" - or do you give the whole story on WHY you need to cancel, to total strangers?

If you give the whole spiel to strangers on why - you need a LOT more work on boundaries.  Next time, try *not* doing  it and just saying you need to postpone until X.  :yes:

The sky won't fall.  I promise!  8-)

The only time I give explanations is for short-notice cancellations - dead battery, flat tire, a sudden veterinary problem came up and the vet is the priority.  (Usually, that's so I don't get fined - but I try to never cancel on short notice unless it really IS a sudden problem.)

Your sister is not *owed* any explanations.  She may think she's entitled to them and have you trained to provide them (if she's anything like UnBPD Didi (my alleged "mother"), she won't believe a thing you're saying because she's projecting HER status as a liar onto you!  :aaauuugh: ) - and ignore what you're saying, or saying, "Oh, you can do that later when you're done with what I want."  :dramaqueen:

It doesn't work like that.  When another adult tells us NO, they are NOT to be argued with, badgered, goaded to anger, bullied, cajoled, hectored, prompted, or be otherwise poorly treated for setting a *boundary.*

A polite, "May I ask why?" *is* tolerable, as long as the person is okay with getting, "I don't want to discuss it..." as an answer.   :yes:

But the PDs in our lives  aren't polite.  They demand, "WHY!?!?!?" - and that is NOT how you talk to another adult, hence the broken record treatment of, "I just told you why.  It doesn't work for me."   :ninja:

As Gettingstronger also said, you are NOT responsible if your sister is hurt, angry, gets her nose out of joint, feels snubbed or rebuffed, or any other thing she might feel.  Those are HER emotions to deal with.  You are NOT responsible for them.   :yes: :sunny:

UnBPD Didi would sometimes try to get me to take her to the local casino by lying and saying her doctor ordered it as relaxation therapy.   :roll:

Yeah - pull the other one.   :evil2:

I have nothing against gambling - I just think it's a waste, and I may as well flush those quarters down the toilet, one at a time.  :bigwink:

Me:  "I can't do that."   :ninja:

Didi (huffily)  "Why NOT!?"   :dramaqueen:

Me:  "I just told you - I can't do that."  :ninja:

Didi:  (imperiously)  "I am your MOTHER and I DEMAND to know WHY!!!!"   :dramaqueen: :pissed:

Me:  "Third time - I can't do that and if you're going to continue to yell, I'm hanging up."   :ninja:

Didi: (now whimpering and mewling, switching tactics to sound sad and pathetic) "But I'm SO lonely and SO bored...and I have a prescription from my doctor that says you HAVE to take me to the casino..."   :dramaqueen: :violin:

Me: (not buying it for a second)  "An actual script with my name on it?"   :rofl:

Didi:  "YES!  I had to talk him out of writing "that lazy, layabout daughter of yours" and told him he was to NEVER speak about you like that!"    :violin:  :mad:

Note:  did you see what she did there?  She substituted HER words for the words of an *authority figure* - to  lead me to believe it MUST be true and I'm a horrible person, and *she defended my honor.*   :roll:

Rubbish.  I promise that exchange never happened and there was no script.  This whole exchange *never happened.*   :phoot:

Me:  "Hm.  Well, I don't know what to tell you other than to take the Senior Van or call a taxi, but I can't do it."   :ninja:

Didi:  slams phone down in my ear, gives me Silent Treat for 2 weeks.   :yahoo:

That's just a sample conversation!  It went like that *any time* I said, "No" or put up a boundary, for any reason!   :stars:

She was *exhausting* in trying to make *me* responsible for her feelings, emotional well being and later on, physical comfort (she wanted me to act as a caregiver when she didn't need one) - but I was effectively able to shut her down, every single time, by having boundaries made of titanium.   :ninja:

If you got angry reading any of exchange, you'd better believe I was, too - but didn't let it show in my *tone*.  I kept it very neutral - always - like we were just chit-chatting about the weather.   :yes:

Anger is one of those things we've been taught we can NEVER feel, but it's a *healthy* emotion when channeled in the right direction - like being angry enough to say, "NO" and not feel guilty, because there's no *reason* to feel guilty.  8-)

If your sister starts pushing or trying to trample your boundaries about not visiting, *please* harness the anger you feel and allow it to guide you to the very healthy boundary of, "I said no.  This is no longer a discussion.  Goodbye."  :ninja:

You'll be very glad you did!   :yes:

Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: goodgirl on July 10, 2019, 10:42:49 AM
I would add to everything WomanInterrupted said... except she already said it all, and better than I would have.
Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: Crash86 on July 11, 2019, 02:25:29 PM
Thank you for your replies, they really help.

I'll be honest, I'm feeling like s**t, but I think it's the good kind of feeling like s**t, the one were you're thinking profoundly about all of this, making a deep introspection and looking for a final decision. Every 6 months or so I reach this point, but this time is bigger than before.

I'm thinking about going NC with both my sister and dad, I've been thinking about going NC with my sister for 1 year now and with my father I think about it all the time (I was in NC, sent him a letter, for 5 years).

Should I send them a letter? Just keep playing the medium child or grey rock until forever? In all honesty I don't want them in my life, this will mean that I'll have to stop seeing my other family in Christmas, but I already see them like 3 or 4 Christmas out of 10, so it's not the end of the world. We're very distant, not because of drama, just because of distance and agendas and we don't talk during the year, so it's ok. It's always been me and my mother anyway, she's the only person I consider family, and maybe the uncles and cousins etc but as I said we never see each other.

The only thing it scares me is having to deal with my sister as my mother gets older, my mother won't go NC with her, they have VLC. So I'll have to speak to my sister when she gets sick etc. That's the only thing that bothers me. I'd want them both my father and sister out of my life forever. Not having to deal with a single email or phone call anymore.

I'm really upset but I think having found this site is helping me, I went to therapy last year after my sister's visit and the therapist didn't want me to go NC, said that I'm perfectly fine and that I should stop thinking about this and make new friends and hobbies, I was like, ok....

Anyway, thank you for bothering with all of this.

Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: Crash86 on July 11, 2019, 06:24:31 PM
Sorry for the last reply, I was very upset and just vented without thinking. I was going to delete my last message but it seems that's not possible. I'm going to take a break, tell my sister that I won't be seeing her and from then I'll see what I do. If I really decide to go NC I will probably start another topic and I will probably look for a better therapist with experience in this. Today was just one of those days. Feel free to close this topic because there's nothing more to add in regards to her visit.  :no:
Title: Re: Nsister visiting in August
Post by: WomanInterrupted on July 12, 2019, 03:28:22 AM
Hi Crash,   :)

Your former T  sounds  like...well...he or she was working his or her own agenda, and not  focusing on YOUR needs.   :no:

If you want to go NC, that's what you DO.  There's no right or wrong about it  - it's a BOUNDARY  you want.   :yes:

Now how you go about it is another thing.

Please keep in mind, you  know your father and your sister best.

Will letters to tell them to stop contacting you  be like waving a red cape at a bull (aka, "You can't tell ME what to do!"  :pissed:  )  - or will  they just stop contacting you, thinking *they're* giving you the Silent Treatment  :dramaqueen:  , and eventually, you'll come to your senses, snap out of it, and they'll just go right back to abusing  you - but worse?   :aaauuugh:

Yes - IME, there  is *always* payback for NC.   :sharkbait:

You *malfunctioned* but you *came back* - nothing has changed, except they're *more demanding* and the cycle time in the Abusive Cycle is *much* faster - sometimes going from "calm" to "abuse" in a matter of *minutes.*   :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:

I've seen it happen.  My unNPD MIL  is a real charmer   :roll: - and DH's last NC has been permanent - over 15 years now.  We don't expect to ever hear from her again  - but if we do, she has *no* idea what's waiting for her.  (BOUNDARIES!)   :yahoo:

As I said, you know them best - YOU know the best way to proceed.   Giving them fair warning might *seem* like the right thing to do, but will it cause a shit-storm of epic proportions?  (Aka, "Not your crap AGAIN!?!?  What is WRONG with you!?!?"  :mad: )

Or are they the ignoring type, who will think, "Fine.  If that's what she thinks, I'm ignoring HER!  And one day, she'll be REALLY SORRY!"   :dramaqueen: :violin:

Depending on *your* answer is how you proceed.  :yes:

But once you pull the trigger - make it stick.  BLOCK all avenues of communication - your phone, email, FB, Twitter, Instagram, Linkedin - all of it.    8-)

If you suspect either of them know any of your passwords to anything - change them - digital or real world, such as your banking and finances.   :yes:

Any way  you *think* they can get to you, you plug the leak - which leaves only the US Mail, which can be shredded or thrown away, without opening.   8-)

If you want NC, you can make it happen.  Your life is *yours* - to *enjoy* and live without fear of people imposing themselves on you.   :yahoo: