Has anyone else been very low contact with your elderly and ill NParents, but still feel responsible to ensure they are getting by on their own? How do you balance helping them, but not becoming too involved with them again? My parents are in their 80's and do not have any terminal illness but are becoming more forgetful and declining in mobility. So far, they have refused my offer to find outside caregivers to assist with daily tasks. Due to mobility issues, Nmom can no longer do what she used to do around the house. She orders my Ndad around, and he says he can "do it all" but is clearly getting run down. I think dad is afraid if losing control over his life. I know my parents made a promise to each other that they would not go to a nursing home.
My parents always had a relationship where mom ruled the roost, and dad did as she directed. They argue and nit pick at each other. They always did, but now it is worse than ever. One time my mom was chewing gum and dad made a comment about how she was cracking it too loudly, then mom just looked at dad angrily and spit her gum out across the room. My dad called her behavior vulgar, and mom told him to shut up. On top of their frustrations running high, they have burnt out light bulbs they cannot reach that need replacing, trees in the yard need trimming, house needs to be cleaned, and they could benefit from a meal delivery service.
I feel like I can help getting some daily needs met and I am willing to do so. However, when I picked up my phone last month to call and offer to manage grocery delivery for them and to find a home cleaning service I realized my dad had just left a voicemail. I listened and he went on a tirade of how hateful I was for not visiting more often, how I should not carry grudges, and how they are sick and tired of my attitude. When I heard that, I never actually made the call to them to offer my services to them. So, they need assistance I can help with, but I just do not want the onslaught of personal attacks from them.
I want to do the right thing, but do not want to sacrifice myself in the process. How do your parents needs with your own?
Quote from: Blueberry Pancakes on August 14, 2019, 09:50:37 AM
Has anyone else been very low contact with your elderly and ill NParents, but still feel responsible to ensure they are getting by on their own? How do you balance helping them, but not becoming too involved with them again? My parents are in their 80's and do not have any terminal illness but are becoming more forgetful and declining in mobility. So far, they have refused my offer to find outside caregivers to assist with daily tasks. Due to mobility issues, Nmom can no longer do what she used to do around the house. She orders my Ndad around, and he says he can "do it all" but is clearly getting run down. I think dad is afraid if losing control over his life. I know my parents made a promise to each other that they would not go to a nursing home.
My parents always had a relationship where mom ruled the roost, and dad did as she directed. They argue and nit pick at each other. They always did, but now it is worse than ever. One time my mom was chewing gum and dad made a comment about how she was cracking it too loudly, then mom just looked at dad angrily and spit her gum out across the room. My dad called her behavior vulgar, and mom told him to shut up. On top of their frustrations running high, they have burnt out light bulbs they cannot reach that need replacing, trees in the yard need trimming, house needs to be cleaned, and they could benefit from a meal delivery service.
I feel like I can help getting some daily needs met and I am willing to do so. However, when I picked up my phone last month to call and offer to manage grocery delivery for them and to find a home cleaning service I realized my dad had just left a voicemail. I listened and he went on a tirade of how hateful I was for not visiting more often, how I should not carry grudges, and how they are sick and tired of my attitude. When I heard that, I never actually made the call to them to offer my services to them. So, they need assistance I can help with, but I just do not want the onslaught of personal attacks from them.
I want to do the right thing, but do not want to sacrifice myself in the process. How do your parents needs with your own?
Went through years of it. If Dad called I'd do it.
I tried to sort things out to make it easier for everyone. Not interested. In the end I worked out he didnt want someone to help him he wanted ME to help him. Then it sunk in that half the time he didnt really need help he just liked being able to get me to do what he wanted. Didn't want to spend any money either of which he has thousands and thousands but didnt mind me wasting ALL my free time.
I tried and tried, nearly lost my marriage and kids over it. He didn't give a toss. Told me as much.
Now if he has a problem I present a solution that I can sort out. If he says no then struggle. I don't care any more.
Had it this week. His cable/satellite TV was playing up. Half the channels not working. So I looked into it and said £60 for an engineer visit. The lure of keeping £60 alongside the other £40,000 in his bank account proved too strong and hes decided to watch only half the channels. Pointed out this was not wise since its possible the other channels will fail too and I'm away for three weeks after this week and wont be able to help..
Nope. It'll probably break and he wont have TV for three weeks. I did my best so now its "Not my circus, not my monkeys" as you've got to keep telling yourself
Maybe the right thing is you backing off and not doing things for them. :hug: I think helping would be the right thing if our parents were always loving, caring and sweet to us. Our parents are not like that and continually show how they really feel about their children.
What a hurtful voicemail from your dad. I'm sorry that happened, very painful for you! I'd be tempted to call him back and give him an earful of how you were going to help but after that shitty vm from him, you've thought better of it. Of course that may not go well and probably isn't the wisest move but oh my gosh, how rude of him.
My parents act in a similar way to each other but they are more vulgar. The "f" word flies in their house. It seems they hate each other but at their age it doesn't make sense to split up I guess.
I was always the helper and emotional fixer for my mom. Now that I've backed off, went NC for a time and now barely communicate it seems they get through life okay. I don't really care anymore. I would have still been there, driving an hour each way to help them in some way or another but not now. They are grown ups in a retirement community and I have to trust they are making the best decisions for themselves. If they aren't, well unfortunately it's not my problem.
You've heard in voicemail how he feels about the situation, please don't sacrifice yourself and set yourself up for such terrible treatment.
I'm so sorry, BP. :bighug:
I read what your father said, and here's the translation: Where the hell are you!? You're supposed to be taking care of us! We don't want STRANGERS. We want YOU to do it ALL, including driving, cooking, cleaning, playing nurse, taking care of the house and landscaping, and you will never, EVER be able to do a single thing right, or do it fast enough, or cheerful enough, for our liking. We will *always* find something to complain about, you'll offer solutions, and we'll scoff every single one that doesn't involve YOU, personally, taking care of problem after problem that we *really don't want solved or fixed.* :mad:
IME, you can hire aides, housekeepers and landscapers, and sign them up for Meals on Wheels, and a month later, you'll find out they fired them all and stopped MoW because of reasons. :roll:
My suggestion is to *do nothing.* Stay OUT of it. Let their doctors address their health and declining mobility, and let the doctors make suggestions they can shoot down, by saying, "My daughter will take care of it..." - even if you can't, or won't.
If the doctors - or other health care professionals - or even neighbors are concerned enough, they can call Adult Protective Services, who will probably wind up contacting you about being a *caregiver.* :aaauuugh:
Decline. STRIDENTLY! They'll write down, "Unwilling" - that's okay. It's meant to make you feel bad - but it's the only weapon they have as long as you *stay removed from the situation.*
I told social workers, "Write down anything you want. The answer is still NO." :evil2:
You can even call APS yourself and tell them they need help, but you are in no position to do a thing. They'll have to come up with solutions on their own, and you can't be the first person who has ever been in this position.
It's true - not everybody has living family members, or family members on the same continent. Ask them what they do in those kinds of situations. :yes:
When unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray started declining, their miserable personalities only got about 1,000 times *worse.* Didi went Full Metal Waif, expecting me to be her slave, and after she died, Ray just *assumed* I'd be over, constantly, taking care of him, because obviously I have nothing better to do. :roll:
Worse - I lived 3 miles away, BUT I refused to do a thing. I was *busy.* I couldn't get away. Too much to do. If you need help, speak to your doctor, call Meals on Wheels, call Merry Maids, and call the Senior Van. Speak to the pharmacy about having your meds delivered. :ninja:
Neither one wanted to BOTHER those people, which is code for, "YOU do it FOR us."
They absolutely, positively did not want *strangers* involved - in part, because the house was a hoarded-up death trap, and in part because they'd have to *behave* for those people, but with me, they could let their freak flags flap in the breeze and feel NO shame at the way they screamed, barked, bellowed or *rang bells* at me.
Do! Fetch! Bring! Carry! Oh, why can't you SMILE!? This food is DISGUSTING! I don't WANT to take my meds and you can't make me, besides, everything you say is WRONG, so I'm NOT taking that! Rub my feet! Give me an enema! Everything hurts! It's cold in here! Now it's too HOT! Oh, you stupid girl, why can't you get anything right!? Get my coffee! It's COLD! Eww...it tastes funny - are you trying to kill me!? After all we did for you, why can't you do MORE for us!? Why can't you try harder!? The wash is done and I want my sweater! I want my sweater NOW. No, I don't WANT a different one, I want the one in the dryer! I am NOT wearing adult diapers! They're for BABIES, besides, you don't mind doing some extra wash. Get over here, I need to stand up - no I am NOT using a cane or walker because those are for OLD PEOPLE, and you're perfectly healthy - you can support me as I walk! :dramaqueen: :bawl: :pissed: :dramaqueen:
THAT is what you're probably going to be dealing with, on a daily basis, if you get involved in *any* way. :stars:
It might not start out that way, but it's probably going to quickly devolve into a litany of non-stop complaints and verbal abuse.
Your parents are *competent adults* and they're making a lot of bad decisions, but they're *allowed* to make lousy decisions and live with the consequences. :yes:
You're not responsible for that - and you're not required to fix or solve *anything.*
They really don't want anything fixed or solved, anyway. :roll:
:hug:
BlueberryPancakes, your parents' situation is similar to mine with my parents. I'll tell you from experience, you can set up services and will find them refused for 'reasons'. (Thanks WI) Finally, I realized you can throw a horse in the water, and he still won't drink. Its still horrible to know they are declining and flailing about.
I finally started suggesting solutions one time. If they balked, they figured it out themselves or it didn't get done.
A word of caution. One service my uBPDmom did like. She used it as a weapon against my dad and made his life even more miserable.
My situation was slightly different, as my dad did appreciate my efforts. But still, there were honestly things he did not want 'fixed' either and I learned to leave those alone.
I remember being prepared to be so uncomfortable I'd want to flee, to the point of having a safe word to text to family members not in their home so said family member would call. There were other plans in place if my flight response was triggered. None of it was easy.
The right thing may just be to not sacrifice yourself. Someone here once wrote something like - Don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
Hi BlueberryPancake, I do not feel responsible for my Mother. I used too and it was the most miserable time of my life.
The main reason I feel no responsibility now is that no matter what I tried , my mother would not agree to anything. This is how it would go...
Mother, "I just can't do the things I used to anymore, my rugs need cleaned, I can't cook like I used to, my legs hurt so bad. grocery shopping is to hard for me" etc etc
Me, "ok, let me do your shopping, make me a list. I will go get your groceries. I will come clean your house, I can go pick up your mail"
Mother "oh it's ok, I'm not worried about it"
Sooooo, I stopped asking and stopped listening to her endless complaints!! She made my brother her POA, so I told him it's in his hands now. I spent years being manipulated by her, trying to make me feel guilty, with her remarks, woes, and then turned down my help every time!!
She has sent nasty emails about how I do nothing, how I shut her out but I ignore it, just like she ignored me all of my life.
Your Father was mean to you :( It sounds just like things my Mother says. I am sorry you had to be treated that way :bighug:
Quote from: WomanInterrupted on August 14, 2019, 10:47:58 AM
I'm so sorry, BP. :bighug:
I read what your father said, and here's the translation: Where the hell are you!? You're supposed to be taking care of us! We don't want STRANGERS. We want YOU to do it ALL, including driving, cooking, cleaning, playing nurse, taking care of the house and landscaping, and you will never, EVER be able to do a single thing right, or do it fast enough, or cheerful enough, for our liking. We will *always* find something to complain about, you'll offer solutions, and we'll scoff every single one that doesn't involve YOU, personally, taking care of problem after problem that we *really don't want solved or fixed.* :mad:
IME, you can hire aides, housekeepers and landscapers, and sign them up for Meals on Wheels, and a month later, you'll find out they fired them all and stopped MoW because of reasons. :roll:
My suggestion is to *do nothing.* Stay OUT of it. Let their doctors address their health and declining mobility, and let the doctors make suggestions they can shoot down, by saying, "My daughter will take care of it..." - even if you can't, or won't.
If the doctors - or other health care professionals - or even neighbors are concerned enough, they can call Adult Protective Services, who will probably wind up contacting you about being a *caregiver.* :aaauuugh:
Decline. STRIDENTLY! They'll write down, "Unwilling" - that's okay. It's meant to make you feel bad - but it's the only weapon they have as long as you *stay removed from the situation.*
I told social workers, "Write down anything you want. The answer is still NO." :evil2:
You can even call APS yourself and tell them they need help, but you are in no position to do a thing. They'll have to come up with solutions on their own, and you can't be the first person who has ever been in this position.
It's true - not everybody has living family members, or family members on the same continent. Ask them what they do in those kinds of situations. :yes:
When unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray started declining, their miserable personalities only got about 1,000 times *worse.* Didi went Full Metal Waif, expecting me to be her slave, and after she died, Ray just *assumed* I'd be over, constantly, taking care of him, because obviously I have nothing better to do. :roll:
Worse - I lived 3 miles away, BUT I refused to do a thing. I was *busy.* I couldn't get away. Too much to do. If you need help, speak to your doctor, call Meals on Wheels, call Merry Maids, and call the Senior Van. Speak to the pharmacy about having your meds delivered. :ninja:
Neither one wanted to BOTHER those people, which is code for, "YOU do it FOR us."
They absolutely, positively did not want *strangers* involved - in part, because the house was a hoarded-up death trap, and in part because they'd have to *behave* for those people, but with me, they could let their freak flags flap in the breeze and feel NO shame at the way they screamed, barked, bellowed or *rang bells* at me.
Do! Fetch! Bring! Carry! Oh, why can't you SMILE!? This food is DISGUSTING! I don't WANT to take my meds and you can't make me, besides, everything you say is WRONG, so I'm NOT taking that! Rub my feet! Give me an enema! Everything hurts! It's cold in here! Now it's too HOT! Oh, you stupid girl, why can't you get anything right!? Get my coffee! It's COLD! Eww...it tastes funny - are you trying to kill me!? After all we did for you, why can't you do MORE for us!? Why can't you try harder!? The wash is done and I want my sweater! I want my sweater NOW. No, I don't WANT a different one, I want the one in the dryer! I am NOT wearing adult diapers! They're for BABIES, besides, you don't mind doing some extra wash. Get over here, I need to stand up - no I am NOT using a cane or walker because those are for OLD PEOPLE, and you're perfectly healthy - you can support me as I walk! :dramaqueen: :bawl: :pissed: :dramaqueen:
THAT is what you're probably going to be dealing with, on a daily basis, if you get involved in *any* way. :stars:
It might not start out that way, but it's probably going to quickly devolve into a litany of non-stop complaints and verbal abuse.
Your parents are *competent adults* and they're making a lot of bad decisions, but they're *allowed* to make lousy decisions and live with the consequences. :yes:
You're not responsible for that - and you're not required to fix or solve *anything.*
They really don't want anything fixed or solved, anyway. :roll:
:hug:
Cracking post from WI again! :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:
I would echo that bit about not wanting it solved. They don't they just want you to run around for them.
Blueberry Pancakes, how are you getting on with this? I haven't been on this forum for a while but looked this morning in the hope of finding a thread about exactly this.
Seems like all are agreed it's best to continue to have minimum involvement, but I am struggling with the guilt aspect of that, the 'After all we did for you' and my own recurrent doubts that they are actually that bad (probably result of lifetime of gaslighting!!!)
How are you getting on?
Jen x
Quote from: Blueberry Pancakes on August 14, 2019, 09:50:37 AM
Has anyone else been very low contact with your elderly and ill NParents, but still feel responsible to ensure they are getting by on their own? How do you balance helping them, but not becoming too involved with them again? My parents are in their 80's and do not have any terminal illness but are becoming more forgetful and declining in mobility. So far, they have refused my offer to find outside caregivers to assist with daily tasks. Due to mobility issues, Nmom can no longer do what she used to do around the house. She orders my Ndad around, and he says he can "do it all" but is clearly getting run down. I think dad is afraid if losing control over his life. I know my parents made a promise to each other that they would not go to a nursing home.
My parents always had a relationship where mom ruled the roost, and dad did as she directed. They argue and nit pick at each other. They always did, but now it is worse than ever. One time my mom was chewing gum and dad made a comment about how she was cracking it too loudly, then mom just looked at dad angrily and spit her gum out across the room. My dad called her behavior vulgar, and mom told him to shut up. On top of their frustrations running high, they have burnt out light bulbs they cannot reach that need replacing, trees in the yard need trimming, house needs to be cleaned, and they could benefit from a meal delivery service.
I feel like I can help getting some daily needs met and I am willing to do so. However, when I picked up my phone last month to call and offer to manage grocery delivery for them and to find a home cleaning service I realized my dad had just left a voicemail. I listened and he went on a tirade of how hateful I was for not visiting more often, how I should not carry grudges, and how they are sick and tired of my attitude. When I heard that, I never actually made the call to them to offer my services to them. So, they need assistance I can help with, but I just do not want the onslaught of personal attacks from them.
I want to do the right thing, but do not want to sacrifice myself in the process. How do your parents needs with your own?
Jen X - Thanks for chiming in on this post. You ask how I am doing? I am keeping the VLC boundaries I put in place. After I posted this a few months ago, I never did extend the offer of my assistance to my parents.
What I did do however was re-focus the times that I am in contact with my parents and use it as a type of wellness check. I do it for myself, to ease my mind, not for them. My boundaries currently consist of a visit every other month, which occurred a few weeks ago. I limit my time with them to 1-2 hours depending upon how conversaton goes. During my visit a few weeks ago, I took the time to look around their house and ensure it was safe and clean. It was. So, I decided that is enough. Maybe things are not perfect, but they are alright and I feel like any "duty" I have is met. It allows me to keep my boundaries and ease my concience.
I do not believe anyone owes their parents their services of assistance. It is a personal choice and I will probably keep tweaking it based on how I feel. My peace of mind is my priority. Oddly, it seems whenever I start to feel a tug of guilt, my dad leaves a voicemail expressing how much I am hurting them by staying distant, making their life worse, how I should not carry grudges, etc. It seems to always make my decision so much easier.
So what is this grudge you are carrying?
The famous "I don't want to bother anyone" line...anyone except me that is. My father was going to the same doctor twice in one day and expected me to leave work twice to do it...and could we do lunch too? Like I didn't need to get back to work. He had plenty of much younger retired friends who could have taken him and enjoyed lunch out but NOOOOO, he didn't want to bother them. He did that once when I absolutely refused to take a second time off in one day to run back to the same doctor. He still expected me to arrange another ride for him. Nope, I refused and he was so upset when I insisted he call his friend who did take him.
The best was when my father ended up in a hospital 2 hours from home and called me at work to come and get him. Stupid me left work and did that. He hadn't even been discharged yet so more wasted time. After that I told him that if his friends take him some place they are responsible for bringing him home. Later I found out that his friends did offer to come and get him and he said "No my daughter will take care of that". Son of a *****!
Oh that's familiar.
Few years ago her Meals on Wheels driver died. He always had hoped my grandmother would befriend the other widow down the street, who he also delivered to. He thought they could be friends. When he died, this neighbor actually offered a grandmother a ride to his wake. I thought look at that! Synchronicity. They could start a friendship on the day of that nice man's wake, which seemed fitting since he had hoped they'd be friends.
She accepted after some prodding by me. Then at last minute called me at work demanding I bring her instead. She had already called the neighbor and told her that her granddaughter was going to do it.
I should have said no, but I took her. I wasn't dressed for a wake. It was casual Friday at work. I was wearing jeans, so I let her go in on her own and waited in the car.
She ends up waking out of the wake with a man on her arm who proceeded to chastise me for not going in with her. I said this was a last minute thing and I am wearing jeans. He said so what, you should have gone in with her. She was capable of going by herself by the way. This was over 7 years ago.
I remember it like yesterday.
Hugs Adrianna.
This is what I've come to realise,
Every time we fulfill their wishes, often at great inconvenience to ourselves, they will move the goalposts until they catch us out in something they can then claim we've done wrong.
You were wearing jeans because she manipulated you into taking her on very short notice.
So then out of respect you didn't enter the wake.
Then this is what you were criticised for. :stars:
I've had stuff like this happen so many times.
Now, I don't do any of the stupid and often sudden requests that come from my dad or older sister.
Once you realise that hey, you just get badmouthed anyway, you might as well do zilch.
Harsh but true.
And very freeing.
I can't really think of words that make me fly into an indignant, self-righteous rage more than, "My daughter/son will do it." :aaauuugh: :mad: :pissed: :blowup:
It's so damned presumptive and rude! Chances are plans *were* put in place, but were dismantled at the last minute by the PD - and nobody bothered to tell you until you hear those words from somebody - either the PD him/herself, or a friend, neighbor or health care professional. :roll:
Yeah -nobody bothered to ASK you. Everybody just ASSUMED it will happen. :wacko:
The only advice I can give is: When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me.
Refuse. You've done nothing wrong. You've reclaimed your time and your life. You're not committing some unspeakable act, because mom SAYS, so it must be true - you just leave mom or dad with a little egg on their face, that's all.
And if they can't withstand *making a mistake* - there's really no hope for them at all. :Monsta:
I used to get SO angry that unBPD Didi would lob that phrase around and I'd ask WHY she'd say something like that, without checking first.
Crickets. :roll:
But the answer was simple - even though I griped, she'd have compliance. Later on, unNPD Ray thought the same thing.
But there's also another answer I stumbled upon, after doing some thinking: If they ask us, we have the ability to say no. :phoot:
If it's dumped on us, we MUST do as we're told - except that's not true at all.
I started pulling back on, "My daughter will do it!" long before Didi's fabled hospital visits. She'd either call and tell me I was doing something, or I'd hear from another person (usually in health care) that Didi said I was doing X or Y.
Dealing with strangers was easier - oops. She bad! She made a mistake. No can do. I'm sure you'll both figure it out. :ninja:
Didi would act like it was the end of the freaking world - but she'd already TOLD people I was doing X or Y, so that's when I'd hit her with the whammy: Yeah, you talked to everybody BUT me, and the answer is no. I'm very busy. I'd like to help you, but it's a bad time and I can't get away. :ninja:
Ray had to be picked up from the hospital - he actually didn't, and wound up taking a cab - but it's all about APPEARANCE, and Didi had already TOLD them her daughter would do it!
I took it in stride and said, "I already have plans and he'll have to take a cab."
She FREAKED. I downplayed.
"So...you goofed. Maybe next time you'll remember to ASK first, before committing me to something I can't do." :ninja:
She slammed the phone down - and eventually, she only sort-of, kind-of learned, if just to save face. :roll:
But Ray never did - one of his final acts before I went NC was to ream me out for not doing my JOB after he'd told *everybody that his daughter would take care of him.*
And this is when it gets interesting: when people start talking.
Ray was telling social workers his DAUGHTER would take care of him, and he didn't know why I wasn't already because he was worth SO MUCH MONEY (he'd recite his amounts and accounts to *strangers* then moan, "She don't want none of it...") :stars:
Wait - if you know I don't want any of your money/assets, why are you telling people I said I'd take care of you? :roll:
Meanwhile I was telling social workers no matter what he said, I was NOT getting involved with inevitable train wreck. He could say anything he wanted, but was NOT going to be a caregiver, in any way, shape or form. 8-)
Nanotech is right: you're going to be smeared/badmouthed, no matter what you do, even if you DO try to help.
It's just never good enough, fast enough, cheerful enough, you weren't respectful or dutiful enough or god forbid, you didn't do your ROOTS before coming to visit after you LITERALLY just rolled out of bed, on 5 minutes notice, to do their bidding?! >:(
How's THAT for no good deed goes unpunished - and you made him/her look bad, too! :violin:
Do yourself a favor and do NOT fulfil the wishes - your life is your own and you live under *nobody's* expectations but your own.
Didi eventually did give up saying her daughter would do it - no matter how many times she said it, I never came or did.
But Ray was never going to let that sucker go - even when he was in a memory care unit. He told the staff his DAUGHTER would take care of him, so they didn't have to be BOTHERED.
Yeah - thankfully, they know better, and would deflect him to get him off the tangent.
Badmouthing is one of those things that can't realy hurt us - we feel bad because we know we're not the horrible people we're being painted to be, we'll never be able to prove it, but what we're missing is *the people who badmouth us aren't important* - even if it's the PD him/herself.
Their cronies don't matter - chances are you'll never see them again, until they get their noses up in yet another idignant snit about something - and that should tell you every thing you need to know about the crony/ies!
We all know who we are - and none of us are bad people, who intentionally inflict suffering and misery on others, or go out of our way to make life difficult for them. :grouphug:
Sometimes, that's all you have to go by - know thyself. :sunny:
The rest sorts itself out. :)
:hug:
Oh many times Dad has turned down offers from others and told them p will do it before even asking me.
His classic is "oh I didnt like to ask x again I thought its time you did it". FFS. I never agreed.
Then when you say No can do I get "oh what am I going to do now?".
Drives me up the wall. Along with the "you don't mind, do you?". I used to get this every xmas day when I had to drive him back and forth to my house. "You don't mind not drinking, do you?". I dont drink much but it'd be nice to have an option not told what I dont mind!
Boundaries are so misnamed. Unlike physical boundaries, they are not a barrier to others: they are an expression of what we will or not do, or engage with. And while physical boundaries keep two things apart, strong boundaries of the sort we discuss allow things to stay a little more together.
It is not enmeshment to want to aid an elderly parent of any disposition. For me, I don't want my wife or I to ever lift a finger in aid of her folks: theyhave sufficient resources to buy whatever assistance they need. But I don't think we should disparage anyone's sentiment that in late years they want to ensure their parents do not suffer.
If you decide to continue supporting them, you need a crash course in boundaries. Boundaries need never be announced: you just do them. When your dad acts out, you inform him with shocking sunniness of what you will not tolerate, and ask him to respect that as a request. If he can't do better, with absolute sweetness in your voice you acknowledge that today is plainly not a good day for him, and so you will take your leave.
Maybe they cannot be trained in these late years to better behavior. Not knowing, since we none of us know them, I offer my moral support if you decide to try.
The answer for, "You don't mind, do you?" or, "You don't mind not drinking" - a statement of FACT are the same: "Yes I DO mind..." - and to go about your business. If it includes drinking and you don't want to drive, call a cab for him - or better still *don't have him over at all, after the stunt he pulled, peeing in our car!*
"You don't mind going to the store, do you?"
"Yes, I do, and it's time you had your groceries delivered." :ninja:
"You don't mind taking me to the doctor, do you?"
"Yes, actually I'm very busy. Call a taxi or brother. I can't do it." :ninja:
"You don't mind driving me all over hell's half acre."
"Yes, as a matter of fact, I'm very busy and you'll need to find your own ride. I can't do it." :ninja:
BOUNDARIES are required - and you can't back down, no matter if he pouts, sulks, pulls a face, mopes or plays at being half dead an in immediate need of medical attention.
He does THAT? Call an ambulance and don't go to the hospital with him. Stay home instead - you'll just be in the way. :yes:
Once you start putting up boundaries and letting the dreaded *outsiders* see what you put up with, there's a pretty good chance somebody is going to get a social worker involved - good. THEY can deal with him while you stay OUT of it - you're busy with work, and have no time for the unwanted 3rd child. :roll:
:hug:
Quote from: Blueberry Pancakes on August 14, 2019, 09:50:37 AM
I want to do the right thing, but do not want to sacrifice myself in the process.
I ultimately had to learn that I also had to do the right thing by me. I was so focused on doing the right thing for my parents, who usually threw it back in my face just like yours, but I totally forgot about my needs, about doing the right thing by me. The 3C's Rule helped me to let go of feeling duty bound to deal with their self-created chaos, because when I was honest with myself I had to admit "I didn't cause it, I can't cure it and I can't control it." and pretending I could save them from selves was hybris on my part. Reading the article in the Glossary on Self-Victimization really helped me understand this. https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/self-victimization
Quote from: Blueberry Pancakes on October 19, 2019, 02:18:31 PM
My peace of mind is my priority. Oddly, it seems whenever I start to feel a tug of guilt, my dad leaves a voicemail expressing how much I am hurting them by staying distant, making their life worse, how I should not carry grudges, etc. It seems to always make my decision so much easier.
F did the same, whenever I started to go soft, he did or said something that reaffirmed I had to limit contact. It was like clock work, as if he couldn't deal with any true closeness and therefore scared me away.
Thanks again to everyone for replying and sharing your experiences on this thread. Your input and links to info is so very helpful. I am so grateful. You are helping me immensely. I certainly hope I can do the same.
It is a way to give back, at some point not so long ago I was in your shoes, trying to square the circle. I consider myself a nice person, the kind that holds doors open or gets something from the top shelf in a grocery store for somebody who cannot reach that high. I loved my parents, so naturally I tried to be nice to them, to help them, it isn't work, all I got was injured again and again. There was a member who had a post entitled "Stop petting the Piranha" https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=55183.msg491063#msg491063 , and it became a leitmotif for me. I could be kind to a random person, to friends, to other relatives, but my parents I could not, because it was like trying to pet a piranha again and again and then being amazed for being bitten every time. I finally accepted it could not be done. Maybe an outsider like a nurse, a social worker could do it, because they had no history of abuse from my parents (also they behaved somewhat better around strangers), they could also go home after some time and forget about them as another case, not think about them as their parents. I hope you can find a balance, I couldn't. I went NC with M after she went to SL and F went NC with me after I stopped being his dutiful daughter.
Quote from: practical on October 22, 2019, 05:48:22 PM
It is a way to give back, at some point not so long ago I was in your shoes, trying to square the circle. I consider myself a nice person, the kind that holds doors open or gets something from the top shelf in a grocery store for somebody who cannot reach that high. I loved my parents, so naturally I tried to be nice to them, to help them, it isn't work, all I got was injured again and again. There was a member who had a post entitled "Stop petting the Piranha" https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=55183.msg491063#msg491063 , and it became a leitmotif for me. I could be kind to a random person, to friends, to other relatives, but my parents I could not, because it was like trying to pet a piranha again and again and then being amazed for being bitten every time. I finally accepted it could not be done. Maybe an outsider like a nurse, a social worker could do it, because they had no history of abuse from my parents (also they behaved somewhat better around strangers), they could also go home after some time and forget about them as another case, not think about them as their parents. I hope you can find a balance, I couldn't. I went NC with M after she went to SL and F went NC with me after I stopped being his dutiful daughter.
Practical it really resonates with me the idea that I too have the desire to be kind to people I don't even know, strangers, my willingness to help is there. With the pd family though, honestly, it is exactly like petting a piranha. We know they are going to bite. We want to help but we know it will cause us pain. I agree that outsiders can witness the same behavior and not be triggered, because they don't have years, decades of abuse under their belt from this person who is "supposed" to love us.
Quote from: WomanInterrupted on October 21, 2019, 10:33:39 PM
The answer for, "You don't mind, do you?" or, "You don't mind not drinking" - a statement of FACT are the same: "Yes I DO mind..." - and to go about your business. If it includes drinking and you don't want to drive, call a cab for him - or better still *don't have him over at all, after the stunt he pulled, peeing in our car!*
"You don't mind going to the store, do you?"
"Yes, I do, and it's time you had your groceries delivered." :ninja:
"You don't mind taking me to the doctor, do you?"
"Yes, actually I'm very busy. Call a taxi or brother. I can't do it." :ninja:
"You don't mind driving me all over hell's half acre."
"Yes, as a matter of fact, I'm very busy and you'll need to find your own ride. I can't do it." :ninja:
BOUNDARIES are required - and you can't back down, no matter if he pouts, sulks, pulls a face, mopes or plays at being half dead an in immediate need of medical attention.
He does THAT? Call an ambulance and don't go to the hospital with him. Stay home instead - you'll just be in the way. :yes:
Once you start putting up boundaries and letting the dreaded *outsiders* see what you put up with, there's a pretty good chance somebody is going to get a social worker involved - good. THEY can deal with him while you stay OUT of it - you're busy with work, and have no time for the unwanted 3rd child. :roll:
:hug:
Wish I was brave enough to do all that :-(
You'll get there p123! You don't think you can do this, but you can.
Quote from: Adrianna on October 23, 2019, 05:55:42 PM
You'll get there p123! You don't think you can do this, but you can.
Yes xmas day is my next big test. Brother has already pulled the "im on holidays over xmas" card leaving it to me.
Yes xmas day is my next big test. Brother has already pulled the "im on holidays over xmas" card leaving it to me.
[/quote]
Same with my NPD sister who also announced she is out of town for the holidays. She has done that before. Why do you suppose they do that? Without me extending an offer, my parents will be sitting alone in their house starring at each other. Of course, it is readily accepted that sister takes off. Me, on the other hand am the horrible child who leaves elderly parents alone for the holiday. Once the scapegoat, always the scapegoat.
Quote from: Blueberry Pancakes on October 24, 2019, 12:49:31 PM
Yes xmas day is my next big test. Brother has already pulled the "im on holidays over xmas" card leaving it to me.
Same with my NPD sister who also announced she is out of town for the holidays. She has done that before. Why do you suppose they do that? Without me extending an offer, my parents will be sitting alone in their house starring at each other. Of course, it is readily accepted that sister takes off. Me, on the other hand am the horrible child who leaves elderly parents alone for the holiday. Once the scapegoat, always the scapegoat.
[/quote]
Hes done it a few times now. Told me hes booked holiday over xmas but it never pans out. Whether this one is true or not we'll see.
I think hes thought, if he tells me hes away, I'll go and invite Dad. Then he can say, oh holiday got cancelled and hes in the clear.
I had Dad EVERY xmas for probably 15 years. He had him once last year. Obviously, he can see how much of a PITA it is!
Thats typical of him. To Dads face he acts like the best son in the world, but I know he lies to Dad and does what he wants mostly. (Dont get me started on his plan to claim carers allowance!)
Well, Dads not coming to mine either. And I dont feel guilty. If he sits on his own for xmas day then its his fault. All I ever asked of him was to be considerate to me and my family on xmas day but hes proven he cant do that, or doesnt want to.
Quote from: WomanInterrupted on October 21, 2019, 10:33:39 PM
The answer for, "You don't mind, do you?" or, "You don't mind not drinking" - a statement of FACT are the same: "Yes I DO mind..." - and to go about your business. If it includes drinking and you don't want to drive, call a cab for him - or better still *don't have him over at all, after the stunt he pulled, peeing in our car!*
"You don't mind going to the store, do you?"
"Yes, I do, and it's time you had your groceries delivered." :ninja:
"You don't mind taking me to the doctor, do you?"
"Yes, actually I'm very busy. Call a taxi or brother. I can't do it." :ninja:
"You don't mind driving me all over hell's half acre."
"Yes, as a matter of fact, I'm very busy and you'll need to find your own ride. I can't do it." :ninja:
BOUNDARIES are required - and you can't back down, no matter if he pouts, sulks, pulls a face, mopes or plays at being half dead an in immediate need of medical attention.
He does THAT? Call an ambulance and don't go to the hospital with him. Stay home instead - you'll just be in the way. :yes:
Once you start putting up boundaries and letting the dreaded *outsiders* see what you put up with, there's a pretty good chance somebody is going to get a social worker involved - good. THEY can deal with him while you stay OUT of it - you're busy with work, and have no time for the unwanted 3rd child. :roll:
:hug:
In my father's case he thought he was doing me the favor by allowing me to do things for him. (His mother was the same way so I see where he got this from).
I got to the point where I was just done with sitting through another pointless doctor appointment with him. I made a compromise. If he made a late day appointment and took a cab to the appointment I would pick him up from the appointment and bring him home. This way my time would not be wasted sitting through an appointment but I was still helping him out. He didn't see it that way and said he would just make the appointment for AFTER I got off of work so I could take him and bring him home. And he presented it to me like he was doing me the favor. He just did not get that I did not want to go to any more doctor appointments. For him it was a day out but for me it was a waste of my precious free time.
Quote from: lkdrymom on November 01, 2019, 05:57:54 AM
Quote from: WomanInterrupted on October 21, 2019, 10:33:39 PM
The answer for, "You don't mind, do you?" or, "You don't mind not drinking" - a statement of FACT are the same: "Yes I DO mind..." - and to go about your business. If it includes drinking and you don't want to drive, call a cab for him - or better still *don't have him over at all, after the stunt he pulled, peeing in our car!*
"You don't mind going to the store, do you?"
"Yes, I do, and it's time you had your groceries delivered." :ninja:
"You don't mind taking me to the doctor, do you?"
"Yes, actually I'm very busy. Call a taxi or brother. I can't do it." :ninja:
"You don't mind driving me all over hell's half acre."
"Yes, as a matter of fact, I'm very busy and you'll need to find your own ride. I can't do it." :ninja:
BOUNDARIES are required - and you can't back down, no matter if he pouts, sulks, pulls a face, mopes or plays at being half dead an in immediate need of medical attention.
He does THAT? Call an ambulance and don't go to the hospital with him. Stay home instead - you'll just be in the way. :yes:
Once you start putting up boundaries and letting the dreaded *outsiders* see what you put up with, there's a pretty good chance somebody is going to get a social worker involved - good. THEY can deal with him while you stay OUT of it - you're busy with work, and have no time for the unwanted 3rd child. :roll:
:hug:
In my father's case he thought he was doing me the favor by allowing me to do things for him. (His mother was the same way so I see where he got this from).
I got to the point where I was just done with sitting through another pointless doctor appointment with him. I made a compromise. If he made a late day appointment and took a cab to the appointment I would pick him up from the appointment and bring him home. This way my time would not be wasted sitting through an appointment but I was still helping him out. He didn't see it that way and said he would just make the appointment for AFTER I got off of work so I could take him and bring him home. And he presented it to me like he was doing me the favor. He just did not get that I did not want to go to any more doctor appointments. For him it was a day out but for me it was a waste of my precious free time.
Yeh dad seems to get the idea that I "really don't mind" doing these things. But then he says this about everyone. He got his cousin (3 years younger then him to push him around in a wheelchair one day. He said he had to stop a few times because he was tired but "he said he didn't mind". More like he didnt want to tell dad.
Dad seems to think "no-one minds helping him".
Things I don;t mind or actually like doing are visiting him, taking him places together. Things I do mind are pointless shopping trips when hes got food anyway, and other stupid rubbish just to get me to go there.
Hi Blueberry! :bighug:
I've been logged off the forum for a while and I just saw your post. I know how you feel you're not alone at all. I'm glad you are trying to maintain VLC boundaries. I know it is hard. If you were truly evil, I guess from a practical standpoint you wouldn't even be torturing yourself about if you are behaving the right way as you wouldn't care.
The fact that you care even if it because you want to avoid the train wreck is normal. A well-rounded person for instance, if they want to drive a car, learns to drive, gets a licence, buys a decent car in working shape, gets insurance and drives it safely and planes ahead for eventualities so as to not be a danger on the road to themselves and others. Dysfunctional people never think this way about their life or others around them. Of course, no matter what you tried your mum would not agree. She is disordered beyond hope and is at an emotional/psychological of a 10-year-old.
It's true WI is right - not everybody has living family members, or family members on the same continent. Live thousands of miles away in another continent from my crazies.
My issues are a long story so I won't bore you: My father is now 83 with Alzheimer's and my mother 67 and recently had a diagnosis of Parkinson's. He decided to leave the USA in the 90's to move back to his home country in South America. As a child I watched my parents struggle financially but I think my father's reasoning for relocating to a poor country was a cheaper standard of living. The excuses for this vary but, in the end, they were unsubstantiated. I was emotionally and academically stunted and our family's quality of life was terrible and fraught with poverty and instability.
Dad was controlling, aggressive and unpredictable, mother a raging co-dependent enabler. I was continuously unhappy, full of anxiety and hated every minute living with them throughout childhood and adolescence. They both were estranged from either side of their families, so I was also totally isolated. My mother barely worked during my lifetime and accrued no pension and my father changed jobs often. By 18 I was so tired of being poor and unhappy and started saving in secret all I could from my job and put myself though design school. I did not attend school from the age of 11 to 17. By 23 I saved enough to leave and moved away to Europe. Now after 15 years of constant hard work I have peace and quiet, a day job and freelance as an artist for extra income. Now they are old, sick and penniless. If this is not a perfect description of "self-created chaos" I don't know what is.
"I didn't cause it, I can't cure it and I can't control it."
"I didn't cause it, I can't cure it and I can't control it."
I feel for you about Christmas too. If you need to block phone numbers for a while to get some peace. I've decided to spend holidays with normal family in Florida and see my granny who is turning 90 in December. If one parent has passed or in hospital there is nothing to do now. I'll just have the funeral home on standby and the chips will fall where they may.
I did not cause this, I cannot cure this, I cannot control this